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Author
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Topic: what do you want?
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted June 03, 2004 08:31 AM
What do you want your bullet to do?
Major damage?
Minimal damage?
Expand inside?
Exit?
Now, what is your reason?
Are you still searching?
Are your expectations easily realized?
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 31462 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted June 03, 2004 08:39 AM
I'm glad (you) asked!
Personally, I think it's very difficult to predict performance; considering the energy intensity level, and the size of the target.
What's your solution?
Good hunting. LB
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 31462 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
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crapshoot
Knows what it's all about
Member # 225
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posted June 03, 2004 09:05 AM
When pelts are good, I like a dead critter with minimal damage. I dont sell or put up hides, but would like a use able hide with little damage for my self or for others I may give it to. In the off season or when hunting jack rabbits, I like total carnage and destruction. Nothing i like better than exploding Jacks. I wish we had P-dogs here. 20 TAC JackRabbit ![[Razz]](tongue.gif)
Posts: 44 | From: S. Nevada | Registered: Jul 2003
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Cdog911
"There are some ideas so absurd only an intellectual could believe them."--George Orwell.
Member # 7
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posted June 03, 2004 10:46 AM
A couple of years ago, my brother in law and I got into a heated debate over how a bullet should perform upon impact with a deer. He felt that he wanted a round that would punch thru and come out the backside explosively (he's a farmer and hates deer and his position is that we should kill them all).
My opinion, both then and now, is that terminal performance of any bullet is a matter of physics and the transfer of kinetic energy between the force of the bullet moving forward and the bone and soft tissue of the target. I feel that the best round is one that enters, transfers all of its energy to internal organs resulting in trauma without an exit wound. If the bullet does exit, then there is an appreciable amount of energy that has been wasted in the sense that it passed clear through without creating the maximum amount of trauma to the target. In a perfect world, this is the round I would use. But, of course, we don't hunt in a perfect world and, Leonard, as you somewhat pointed out, there are far too many variables that influence, often negatively, the performance of even the best round under the worst of conditions. Thus, I'm non-committal. ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
But, if I were to offer an example, I wish that I could find a round that performs on bad shots like Vmax's do on good shots. You just can't NOT like picking up your coyote or 'cat, not finding an entrance or exit wound, and shaking the thing to find that it sounds like a plastic bag half full of water. I like that kind of performance, but hate the frequent shoulder splashes I saw with the same bullet.
[ June 03, 2004, 02:10 PM: Message edited by: Cdog911 ]
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I am only one. But still, I am one. I cannot do everything, but still, I can do something; and, because I cannot do everything, I will not refuse to do something that I can do.
Posts: 5438 | From: The gun-lovin', gun-friendly wild, wild west | Registered: Jan 2003
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Jim B
Knows what it's all about
Member # 343
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posted June 03, 2004 05:09 PM
Cdog
Pass thru vs stay inside and expend all the energy inside the critter......
If I were to use a .257 Roberts with a 120 grain bullet hitting the deer at say 2200 fps and then hit that same deer with a .257 Weatherby with the same 120 grain bullet at say 3100 fps will more or less energy be expended inside the deer by the slower bullet than the faster bullet? Now I do understand that some of the energy of the faster bullet will be "wasted" travelling thru the air after it exits the deer but will the bullet put less or more energy into the deer while it is actually inside the deer?
Another way to ask this is...
While the .257 Roberts puts say 1000 foot pounds of energy to the deer and expends all 100 percent of that energy inside the deer and the .257 Wby puts 1500 foot pounds of energy to the deer and expends 85 percent of that energy inside the deer and loses 15 percent outside the deer after exiting the amount of energy expended inside the deer is .85 X 1500 = 1275 foot pounds.
Now dont go telling me that my actual numbers are wrong for the examples I made. I have no clue as to what the real numbers might be for either cartridge. They only serve to illustrate the logic.
Last but not least. The number of foot pounds of energy is to me a non factor in bullet effectiveness. It is the amount of damage to the vital organs that is the direct cause of death.
Jim B
Posts: 17 | From: Madison, Alabama | Registered: May 2004
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Cdog911
"There are some ideas so absurd only an intellectual could believe them."--George Orwell.
Member # 7
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posted June 03, 2004 06:51 PM
Jim,
I have absolutely no idea what the foot pounds are on any of the guns and loads I shot. I'm just stating what I consider to be the causal factors for killing a coyote, just as you pointed out when you said, "It is the amount of damage to the vital organs that is the direct cause of death." Yep. I agree. Your comparison, numbers-wise, is a valid point as well. But,an exit wound is just another hole to sew up and I hunt for fur. If I want to just kill him, the skies the limit. What you consider to be your perfect round is absolutely a function of your motivation in being there.
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I am only one. But still, I am one. I cannot do everything, but still, I can do something; and, because I cannot do everything, I will not refuse to do something that I can do.
Posts: 5438 | From: The gun-lovin', gun-friendly wild, wild west | Registered: Jan 2003
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Tim Behle
Administrator MacNeal Sector
Member # 209
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posted June 03, 2004 08:11 PM
I want a bullet that Will kill a well hit animal at the point of impact. But if I screw up and make a bad hit, and the animal runs more than 10 yards, I hope the bullet passes though and makes a big blood trail.
Hunting with a 17 Remington will either make you a good shot, or a good tracker. I'd like a little less tracking experience next season.
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Personally, I carry a gun because I'm too young to die and too old to take
an ass kickin'.
Posts: 3160 | From: Five Miles East of Vic, AZ | Registered: Jun 2003
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Greenside
seems to know what he is talking about
Member # 10
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posted June 04, 2004 07:32 AM
I want a bullet that will consistently knock a coyote off it's feet and one that will have a minimal amount of exits. That's the main reason I quit using the 1365's.
Dennis
Posts: 719 | From: IA | Registered: Jan 2003
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albert
Knows what it's all about
Member # 98
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posted June 04, 2004 02:02 PM
What kind of hunter/shooter are you? If you are willing to limit yourself to certain shot presentation it is reletively easy to find a bullet that will give you bang/flops with minimal fur damage. But me I still want to kill every coyote that I see this has lead me down an never ending path of trying different bullets. Generally speaking the heavier jacketed bullets have served me best. I find that I frequently get broadside pass trough with some damage on the off side. yes the coyotes do sometimes run a little ways. The plus is that i can take any shot presented and know that i am going to knock it down. I do not have to worry about bullet splash wounds where a coyote falls to the ground spins a little and then takes off running. I have managed to track a few of these and found that what was happening was lack of penetration.
I find that i have the majority of bullet failures, at under about 75 yards. I feel that most bullets will perform well at 150 plus yards. So for me i have found the best compromise to be "some" fur damage in combination with a tuff bullet.
I have yet to find the "perfect coyote rifle" and am seriously considering Leonard's golf bag approach.
PS. I sell the coyotes that I shoot and feel that this compromise has put the most money in my pocket.
[ June 04, 2004, 02:05 PM: Message edited by: albert ]
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for what it's worth, eh!
Posts: 195 | From: Parkland, saskatchewan, canada | Registered: Feb 2003
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Q-Wagoner
FREE TRIAL MEMBERSHIP
Member # 33
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posted June 04, 2004 03:12 PM
Minimal damage outside, maximum damage inside and always and exit.
Good hunting.
Q,
Posts: 617 | From: Nebraska | Registered: Jan 2003
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted June 04, 2004 03:36 PM
quote:
Minimal damage outside, maximum damage inside and always an exit.
Let me laminate that statement for my wallet, because that about sums it up for me.
Good hunting. LB
[ June 04, 2004, 03:38 PM: Message edited by: Leonard ]
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 31462 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
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JoeF
resides "back east"
Member # 228
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posted June 04, 2004 08:27 PM
Count me in the crowd that wants two holes for each bullet I shoot.
The energy numbers have little bearing on real life performance.
Great hillbilly test executed last weekend:
I shot a willow "stick" maybe 15 inches long, 6 inches in diameter that was floating in the pond - at most it weighed 30 pounds - with a 270 cal. 130 grain Winchester factory load. A good solid hit with many hundreds of pounds of energy... any guess on the reaction of that stick??? I could have shoved it farther with a feather. Where did all of that energy go?
My best guess is that you'd better shoot them somewhere that makes them leak or fall down due to structural failure - energy being only something that pushes a bullet to that point - not something that is absorbed or transfered and knocks them down.
I've shot way too many criters in the 20 to 200 pound range without a "knockdown" that corresponded to the "energy" applied to ever buy in to that argument. Reasonable energy behind a decent bullet are hard to beat. It equates to holes through what matters.
Posts: 646 | From: Midwest | Registered: Aug 2003
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted June 05, 2004 10:18 AM
Well, different strokes, that's for sure. I only know what works for me. However, if you feel that you can control the situation, and drill every animal in the right spot, and blow up without exiting......fine.
I think Albert put it in a way that describes my attitude. I'm not waiting for the perfect presentation; one that may, or may not happen. I'll take the "Texas Heart Shot" if that's all I got. IF all I got is half a head peeking over some brush, I'm going to mess him up, right now.
For those that want same results, without an exit, that has got to include some rigid parameters.
In my principle coyote rifles, I use bullets that hold together, for the most part, and exit with a hole smaller than you would think. The hydrostatic shock seems to kill as if electrocuted, and I get a high percentage of "bang/flop".
Bottom line; whatever blows your skirt up!
Good hunting. LB
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 31462 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
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Cdog911
"There are some ideas so absurd only an intellectual could believe them."--George Orwell.
Member # 7
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posted June 05, 2004 12:05 PM
Right on Leonard! Up with skirts. Down with pants! Yahoo!!!
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I am only one. But still, I am one. I cannot do everything, but still, I can do something; and, because I cannot do everything, I will not refuse to do something that I can do.
Posts: 5438 | From: The gun-lovin', gun-friendly wild, wild west | Registered: Jan 2003
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JoeF
resides "back east"
Member # 228
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posted June 05, 2004 07:29 PM
Leonard, if your reply was meant for me I think you missed my point. I'm definately not one of the stay inside or frangible bullet crowd. Like I said, two holes for each bullet shot suits me fine.
Posts: 646 | From: Midwest | Registered: Aug 2003
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted June 05, 2004 08:22 PM
Nope, not meant for you, Joe. I understood perfectly.
What I was trying to do was gently guide the conversation in a way that would allow and encourage the other side to wade in with pearls of wisdom on the alternate methods of skinning this particular cat.
I try to be careful about protecting opinion, especially if it runs counter to mine. We had seen the most recent comments suscribing to the "drill 'em through both sides" advocacy. A trend, if you will? That sometimes puts a damper on other points of view.
I still want to hear what they have to say, even if I suspect they are hopelessly misguided! The conversation is what's important.
Good hunting. LB
PS BTW how's everything back east, JoeF?
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 31462 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
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Tim Behle
Administrator MacNeal Sector
Member # 209
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posted June 06, 2004 06:07 AM
Quinton's answer really surprised me.
I can see why a contest hunter, or a night hunter would want a bullet that did maximum damage and have enough energy left to always exit.
But a fur hunter?
Making only one hole in a coyote makes it quicker and easier to skin. Not to mention it takes less sewing and less washing. The less time you have to spend on each hide, the more pennies per hour you make. I'm amazed that someone who skins their coyotes would ever want more than one small entrance wound.
That's why I don't shoot many coyotes in the head. It's a great shot and drops them in their tracks. But skinning a coyote with a shattered skull is a bitch and head wounds bleed so much the pelt always has to be washed out. Wet pelts tie up a stretcher longer, and take a lot of time to get combed out to be presentable for market.
[ June 06, 2004, 10:10 AM: Message edited by: Tim Behle ]
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Personally, I carry a gun because I'm too young to die and too old to take
an ass kickin'.
Posts: 3160 | From: Five Miles East of Vic, AZ | Registered: Jun 2003
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Greenside
seems to know what he is talking about
Member # 10
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posted June 06, 2004 06:39 AM
Nothing like a pile of unplugged, two holed coyotes in the back of a truck. When the shit'n, piss'n and the bleed'n is all done, you've got one hell of a mess. You probably could track the truck's blood trail blindfolded.
Dennis
Posts: 719 | From: IA | Registered: Jan 2003
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Cdog911
"There are some ideas so absurd only an intellectual could believe them."--George Orwell.
Member # 7
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posted June 06, 2004 07:25 AM
To be honest with you Leonard, my opinions are extrapolated from decades of trauma management research and kinesthetics that have taught us, at least in humans who have been shot, that the most damage is done by any round that expends its kinetic energy while still in the body. I don't have nearly the numbers of coyotes to shoot at as most of you guys, nor have I gained years of practical experience shooting different rounds. But, I do have more personal experience than I care for trying to rescue people who have been shot and understanding how a bullet performs relative to trauma damage is kinda important. Medics learn, ironically, that the .22LR and a head shot is an ideal assassin's weapon because it lacks the energy to pass through and through. Rather, it enters, ricochets and bounces around creating further soft tissue damage. An ideal situation when you want the target graveyard dead. Along those lines, that's why I stand by my earlier opinion that an ideal round would enter, inflict maximum damage on the inside and not necessarily present an exit wound. If the bullet itself were to fragment interiorly and each of those fragments were to create their own wound track, the cummulative damage would far exceed a backside blowout exit wound because the secondary trauma would involve vascular tissue other than that in the initial wound track, and this is where the rubber meets the road when it comes to killing an animal with anything other than a head shot. If there is enough energy retained to blow out the other side, then you've failed to properly take advantage of the full energy potential of that round beacuse the bullet leaves the body with residual energy that continues to be expended as the bullet travels beyond the target. Anecdotal accounts of what suits the hunter relative to laying a good blood trail is one thing. But, how a bullet best kills has been studied before and the results of that research are put to use every day on the streets. Try saving the lives of a few of those coyotes after the shot and see which one is hardest to deal with.
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I am only one. But still, I am one. I cannot do everything, but still, I can do something; and, because I cannot do everything, I will not refuse to do something that I can do.
Posts: 5438 | From: The gun-lovin', gun-friendly wild, wild west | Registered: Jan 2003
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Norm
Knows what it's all about
Member # 240
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posted June 06, 2004 09:22 AM
Well stated Cdog;
I prefer to not get an exit, but if one does occur, I prefer for it to be no larger than the entrance...
Tim, if you were to round up all your stretchers that are scattered around McNeal, you could keep your fur prep production line moving quite well ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
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Carpe Diem
Posts: 778 | From: Phx AZ | Registered: Oct 2003
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted June 06, 2004 09:35 AM
Good post, Lance.
I disagree with the theory. Too many things can go wrong. But, remember. We are dealing with coyotes, not humans. A coyote is a lot tougher critter. If they weighed two hundred pounds, we might be using African calibers, instead.
Dennis. What a mess! You're right, about that.
People see different things. I do not want a runner; almost as bad as a complete miss. I like to use more gun than absolutely necessary. Blowing a hole through the far side is something that is a constant, more predictable. I just need to find a well constructed bullet.....blows my skirt up.
Good hunting. LB
edit: okay, Norm. Rub it in!
[ June 06, 2004, 09:37 AM: Message edited by: Leonard ]
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 31462 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
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Tim Behle
Administrator MacNeal Sector
Member # 209
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posted June 06, 2004 10:07 AM
Norm,
I picked up all of my stretchers but 3. I saw my fleshing board, it had been left laying out in the sun all summer and was full of splits and ruined. About all it's good for now is firewood, and I don't have a wood stove so I left it. The one thing I do miss is my fleshing knife. It's a good quality knife. I hate to think how long it will take to clean and sharpen it back up. Probably an all day event?
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Personally, I carry a gun because I'm too young to die and too old to take
an ass kickin'.
Posts: 3160 | From: Five Miles East of Vic, AZ | Registered: Jun 2003
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Az-Hunter
Hi, I'm Vic WELCOME TO THE U.S. Free baloney sandwiches here
Member # 17
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posted June 06, 2004 10:34 AM
Tim always has commentary that jogs my memory bank:) I can't give an exact number of coyotes that Ive shot, I kept records only for the late 90's, but soon quit. One record I have kept in the memory bank, is the number of coyotes Ive ever shot in the head.....exactly one.
Ive shot many a coyote up the ass, to give a temporary anchor,and allow a follow up shot to kill, but only have the one head shot. The head shot is the worst possible percentage shot you can take, as well as just being ugly, and difficult to skin out if that is your bag.
As for what I want a bullet to do?, just kill the coyote with as little fan fare as possible, go in chest cavity, jelly lungs,and almost exit, or just poop out the far side without much ado.
It's always much nicer to examine a coyote that appears to have fallen down from heart failure, than to see softball sized craters(or larger) blown from various parts of its anatomy:)
Posts: 1627 | From: 5 miles west of Tim | Registered: Jan 2003
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted June 06, 2004 11:15 AM
Well stated, Vic.
If you were hunting at night, I suspect you would have shot more than one coyote between the eyes. Especially from a solid rest, it's not a particularly difficult shot. But, sometimes, it's all you can see. There are a number of places in the eastern Sierra and into western Nevada where the sage is high, and you don't see most of the animal, day or night. Again, you shoot 'em in the head, or let 'em go.
This is one of those cat/dog, Ford/Chevy discussions. Nobody is going to convince anyone else of the error in their ways....but, it's fun trying!
Good hunting. LB
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 31462 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
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Norm
Knows what it's all about
Member # 240
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posted June 06, 2004 12:14 PM
Leonard, why would I want to rub anything in??
Everyone hunts differently and for different purposes. Thus, it requires different approaches.
Night hunting does not afford the opportunity for a coyote to run and you be able to find it, so it needs to drop.
The number of hunters that are hunting for the fur is dropping dramatically, so if there is a football size hole through it, the shooter is fine with that.
The hunter that is wanting the fur, it has been described here several times, several ways... a small entry hole, maximum damage on the internal organs. They skin better, stretch better and sell better.
So how is that new truck? Ready to trade it??
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Carpe Diem
Posts: 778 | From: Phx AZ | Registered: Oct 2003
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