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Author
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Topic: Predict the future
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted March 13, 2005 12:34 PM
What will be the state of hunting for furbearers in the U.S. ten (10) years from now? Twenty?
Are we on an uptick? Will the popularity cause the quality to suffer?
Is game regulatory status in our future?
Is the best yet to come?
Will it forever be a nitch catagory?
Take your pick, answer whatever you like, the whole enchillada or a single aspect. We'd like to hear your opinions.
Good hunting. LB
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 31450 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
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Rich Higgins
unknown comic
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posted March 13, 2005 02:47 PM
Many people in the industry believe that predator hunting is poised on the brink of discovery by the American hunters, much as turkey hunting was in the early 80s and bowhunting was in the mid 70s. Winchester gave the nod to us with their "Coyote" rifle, as did Remington with their "Dead Coyote" hevishot and PredatorLight rifle. I understand many companies are positioned to jump on the bandwagon when it rolls by. That kind of popularity will forever change calling as we have known it.
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Lonny
PANTS ON THE GROUND
Member # 19
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posted March 13, 2005 08:58 PM
I think it will continue to grow and it won't always be for the best.
As more and more hunters become disenchanted with big game hunting with all its rules, regs, higher costs, and more people crammed onto public land. Hunters are seeking something else to hunt without jumping through all the hoops. Think about it with coyotes for example. No season, No limit, very little if any cost for a license in most western states, and possibly more action in a day than a whole season of elk and deer hunting. You can't beat a deal like that.
I've seen a big change here in the last five years. Stores that didn't even carry handcalls five years ago now sell e-callers.
I would bet that someday game departments will charge for a "Coyote Hunting Permit" More landowners will realize they can charge for access to hunt coyotes. A friend of mine in Oregon gets people coming out from the east to kill a badger! And they pay good money for it. He says his business for predator and varmint hunting grows every year.
I hope like hell The Boone and Crockett Club never come up with a system to "score" a coyote. And nobody ever comes up with a good recipe for cooking coyotes or we will be doomed.
Posts: 1209 | From: Lewiston, Idaho USA | Registered: Jan 2003
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Byron South
Knows what it's all about
Member # 213
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posted March 14, 2005 06:30 AM
It is definately growing every year, but the turn over seems way greater than with traditional game hunters. Turkey and deer hunting has enjoyed such success because just about any Tom, dick or Harry can go out and be successfull without much effort and they are hooked. When people realize that it's not as easy as it sounds on the pakage the call came in they give up. Plus, with a game animal such as a deer or elk they can be a status symbol when displayed properly over the mantle. Some will no doubt stick and it will grow some though. I think it can be a positive thing if we can somehow hold our ranks together and grow with the ones that stick.
I'm sure that with the popularity it will become somewhat more difficult to gain access and public lands will have more traffic and the coyotes will adapt and be tougher to call. But hey, I like a challenge. I feel it will be better for us all in the long run if it grows some.
Byron
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"Coming to the Call" predator hunting videos. Volumes I, II, III and IV. Order two or more and pay no S&H www.comingtothecall.com
Posts: 313 | From: Texas | Registered: Jun 2003
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Rusty Holt
Knows what it's all about
Member # 350
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posted March 14, 2005 07:05 AM
I believe Byron is right about there continuing to be a high turnover rate. I also think that it won't ever reach the status of deer & turkey hunting due to the fact that there is not as much of a "trophy value" to predators as there are to a 10 pt. buck or a gobbler with 1" spurs and a 10" beard. True, a nice spotted cat has trophy qualities, but they are too few and far between to support many hunters and the vast majority of those hunters won't have the patience to hunt them or even know the "how, where, when" when it comes to bagging a nice cat. Also, predators cost livestock ranchers an unbelievable amount of money each year......not so with with the deer or turkey where they actually make a nice amount of money in leasing, trophy fees, etc. If ranchers tried that with predators they would end up with their ranches being filled with educated critters that would be even more adept at killing off their livestock and wild game animals.
Just my view on it all. Yes, it is growing in popularity, but there will always be a high turnover and the landowners could never treat predator hunting like they do deer, turkey or any other game animal that doesn't cause harm to other livestock or wild game. This might not be the case in other areas where ranching and the leasing of hunting rights isn't a concern (Federal Lands, etc.), but in my area it just won't work.
Take care and God Bless,
Rusty
Posts: 14 | From: Midland, Texas | Registered: Jun 2004
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Norm
Knows what it's all about
Member # 240
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posted March 14, 2005 12:30 PM
I expect that we will continue to see the growth in the sport of predator calling.
I agree there will be high turnover in the sport as well.
Unfortunately, it could have a negative impact in that unlike turkey or archery hunting, there is no season to control when animals are harvested. We are totally dependent upon individual choices.
If we see an increase in the sport due to the ability to hunt during the off season, How many pups will be left motherless, resulting in a slow decrease in the population.
As with any type of event where an increase in the numbers is desired, some fore thought has to be made to how to control the crowd and maximize everyone's enjoyment.
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Carpe Diem
Posts: 778 | From: Phx AZ | Registered: Oct 2003
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted March 14, 2005 12:53 PM
I'm a walking contradiction. I would love it, if nobody else hunted predators, yet I offer free advice and try to help, in other ways.
Seems like the sport is old news, out west? I doubt that we are gaining hunters.
On the other hand, eastern hunters are dealing with a relatively new situation, and (as has been mentioned) they see it as a new, and exotic hunting opportunity. A lot of room for growth.
The growing popularity hurts the resource. I well remember when we didn't have a season on bobcat or fox. I thought it was better to let the individual decide when he wanted to hunt. Now, we got regulations and bureacracy; and a bag limit. Some types just can't leave well enough,alone.
I think the eastern popularity has peaked too soon. You can't have decent predator hunting until there are a lot more predators than what exists, right now. The word, "decent" is my own value judgement.
Good hunting. LB
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 31450 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
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DAA
Utah/Promoted WESTERN REGIONAL Hunt Director
Member # 11
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posted March 14, 2005 02:06 PM
Leonard, there is absolutely no doubt in my mind whatsoever that we are gaining a LOT of hunters in Utah! Nevada too, I'd bet. And Arizona as well, I'm guessing.
How many stick with it, I don't know. Don't think it matters very much, really. Even if almost none stick with it, for every one that quits, there is more than one new one ready to try. And a fresh, larger than ever new crop each year. Regardless of the churn rate, bottom line is more and more predator callers every year. Around here. Beyond any possible doubt.
I don't know how much is really greater popularity of the sport, per se, vs. the simple fact that our population is exploding. Utah is slowing down a bit from the insane pace of population growth we had in the 90's, but right now Nevada is growing at that same kind of pace. My Mom lives in Washington Co. Utah, right next to Clark Co. Nevada. The population of Washington county 15 years ago was less than 20,000 people. It's over 100,000 people now, and projected to be over 600,000 in another 15 years. Just how many more predator callers would you guess there are living there now, as compared to 10 years ago? How many more would you guess will be there 10 years from now? A HELL of a lot more, is my guess. The population here where I live on the Wasatch Front has doubled in less than 15 years. Again, there's just no way that this kind of growth doesn't equate to more guys calling. All completely independent of "popularity" or "growth of the sport". Which, I feel IS happening, to the point that the growth in numbers of predator callers around here has grown even faster than the population. Quite a bit faster, in my opinion.
For people who've never lived in an area that has experienced this kind of explosive population growth (from people moving in from other states and Mexico), I don't see how they could even begin to relate with all of the issues (problems?) that come with it. Dwindling wild areas and exponentially increasing use of the remaining area being just one of those issues.
Like I said, I can't even begin to know all the dynamics in play, but there are definitely way more guys calling coyotes in Utah than there were just 10 years ago. And I bet it's much the same in Nevada and Arizona.
- DAA
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"Oh yeah, they're gonna talk to you, and talk to you, and talk to you about individual freedom, but they see a free individual, it's gonna scare 'em." -- George Hanson, Easy Rider, 1969.
Rocky Mountain Varmint Hunter
Posts: 2676 | From: Salt Lake City, UT | Registered: Jan 2003
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Jay Nistetter
Legalize Weed, Free the Dixie Chicks
Member # 140
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posted March 14, 2005 02:16 PM
You don't think it's the same old guys buying all those new calls, guns, camo and electronic callers over and over do you?
Sales and the market prove that it is rapidly growing.
There are a lot of new predator callers here in AZ. Some stick with it and some give up. I think that the ones who tend to stick with it are those who had the fortune of calling with a mentor who actually put coyotes in front of them.
Look at what the internet has done. How many new predator hunters do you think Leonard's board is responsible for? It's nothing but a hardship on fellows like me.
Here I was merrily going along calling in a couple coyotes now and then and WHAM! Here's Leonard's Board creating all kinds of competition. Old callers giving up all their secrets, bringing the learning curve way down, giving the newbies hope, patting them on the back when they go bust, feeding them new ideas, reassuring them at every turn.
This board is a curse. A nemisis I tell you. Guys like Q who take hundreds of coyotes every year, guys like like Batastini who hunted all the dumb ones out util there's nothing left but smart eastern ones. Then there's Clan Higgins teaching people about Coyote Phonics. Don't forget about those "ethicull hunters" showing how easy it is on video for those who can't read.
My gawd man, our sport is doomed. The future is grim.
[ March 14, 2005, 02:31 PM: Message edited by: Jay Nistetter ]
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Understanding the coyote is not as important as knowing where they are.
I usually let the fur prime up before I leave 'em lay.
Posts: 1006 | From: Arizona | Registered: Feb 2003
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Steve Craig
Lacks Opposable Thumbs/what's up with that?
Member # 12
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posted March 14, 2005 02:50 PM
It is growing at an unbelievable pace and looks like it will continue. My bookings are already into 2007! I am turning away prospective hunters every week. New hunters wanting to learn are at an all time high if inquiries are any indicator. How it will affect the sport, only time will tell.
Steve
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Yes, we did produce a near-perfect republic. But will they keep it? Or will they, in the enjoyment of plenty, lose the memory of freedom? Material abundance without character is the path of destruction. - Thomas Jefferson
Posts: 442 | From: Cottonwood,Az, USA | Registered: Jan 2003
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted March 14, 2005 05:21 PM
This is depressing! Who started this thread, anyway?
Actually, I think Dave is right, as far as Utah and Nevada and Arizona. I think California is a different thing.
Jay's losing it, but making a fortune on Brass Rhino's.
Good hunting. LB
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 31450 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
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keekee
Knows what it's all about
Member # 465
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posted March 15, 2005 02:20 AM
It is growing in the East, I run into more and more callers every year. Mostly night hunters but never the less there are more now than there ever have been. But alot of them will give it up! After several trips out and no call ins they will just quit! I have seen alot of that all ready.
But, Its good for the call companys, I sold more calls this year than I ever have. It seems to get better every year.
I think Predator calling is just about to the point were Turkey calling was in the 80's. and I think it will grow more every year. it will have its share of drop outs but there will be alot of guys that stick with it.
Brent
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Kee's Custom Calls
http://www.keescalls.com
Posts: 295 | From: Southern Ohio | Registered: Dec 2004
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted March 15, 2005 12:09 PM
I appreciate all the comments made, to this point, and tend to agree with a lot.
However, the tone of many observations are just that; where we are, at the present time.
What I'd like to explore a little bit more is where we will be ten years down the road. Think about it. Will predator hunting remain the same in an ever changing environment? Will there be inovations, caused by saturation? WILL IT BECOME MUCH LESS PRODUCTIVE, due to swelling ranks of novice hunters educating the hell out of the quarry?
Brainstorming, please.
Hunting good, LB
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 31450 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
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DAA
Utah/Promoted WESTERN REGIONAL Hunt Director
Member # 11
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posted March 15, 2005 02:59 PM
"WILL IT BECOME MUCH LESS PRODUCTIVE, due to swelling ranks of novice hunters educating the hell out of the quarry?"
My $.02... This is exactly what has happened already, in most of my old haunts, in the last 10 - 15 years. Or worse, places I could do pretty well calling 15 years ago are paved over and built up with houses and Walmarts now. So, I have to believe that the trend will continue, and more and more "spots" will get hammerred into something resembling a thousand square miles of stomped on chicken turds...
- DAA
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"Oh yeah, they're gonna talk to you, and talk to you, and talk to you about individual freedom, but they see a free individual, it's gonna scare 'em." -- George Hanson, Easy Rider, 1969.
Rocky Mountain Varmint Hunter
Posts: 2676 | From: Salt Lake City, UT | Registered: Jan 2003
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varmit hunter
Knows what it's all about
Member # 37
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posted March 15, 2005 03:16 PM
There are three major religions in Texas. One is practiced in a Church. The other in a Deer blind, And the third in a boat.
There is a very brief pause between Deer season and fishing.
Each year I get several calls that are all almost identical. "Hey man our Deer lease is covered up with Coyotes. There must be sixty in each pack, You gotta hear them"
At the close of Deer season they run out and grab a E-caller. Then the phone calls start all over. They call from the back of the truck at around 10:30 at night. I can hear them wading around in the empty beer cans while fresh ones are being popped open. Then the conversation goes like this. " Hey man this crap don't work. We got four Q beams and we aint seen nothing" They then head home and go fishing.
Lots of turn over, But very few that last more than a month.
Ronnie
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Make them pay for the wind.
Posts: 932 | From: Orange,TX | Registered: Jan 2003
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Tim Behle
Administrator MacNeal Sector
Member # 209
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posted March 15, 2005 06:54 PM
Jay,
Are you still making and selling those Brass Rhinos?
They are the most beautiful handcalls I've ever seen. I've just not seen you advertise them for a while. You should post some pictures of them.
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Personally, I carry a gun because I'm too young to die and too old to take
an ass kickin'.
Posts: 3160 | From: Five Miles East of Vic, AZ | Registered: Jun 2003
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Cdog911
"There are some ideas so absurd only an intellectual could believe them."--George Orwell.
Member # 7
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posted March 15, 2005 07:21 PM
I've said it many times: predator calling is the next archery hunting. As sportsmen seek out the next great challenge, many of them will settle on calling coyotes. Up to now, the majority of them in my area try, fail, and move on only because they wait to give it a try when all the other seasons have closed. A few get lucky and stick with it, and fewer yet become diehard callers, foregoing all other forms of hunting altogether. I've got one partner that fits this description.
But, as far as the future of predator calling goes and what we'll see in ten or twenty years? That depends in large part on where you're standing at the time. You guys out west have access to a little bit of federal ground. Granted, there's no such thing as sole permission and you often have to contend with crowds.But, here in the central and eastern parts of the country, where 95%+ of all ground is privately owned, things are changing quickly, and not for the better.
Since the implementation of the Conmservation Reserve Program as part of the Farm Bill of the early 80's, the population of whitetail deer has exploded across its range. Like many states, Kansas has seen a groundswell of trophy class deer, with all your Sunday morning TOC programs referring to us as the mecca of deer hunting, deer behind every tree, and other crap like that. What the hell does this have to do with predator calling?
Simple. Trophy deer lead to lease hunting. Lease hunting leads to profiteering from the state's natural resources to the point where only the elite classes that can afford to cover the costs of rising lease fees are able to hunt. Lease hunting also leads to an explosion in the number of locked gates that exclude not only deer hunters, but trappers and predator callers as well.
A lot of your former deer hunters that can't afford to cover lease fees are turning to predator calling for their outlet, and all this is happening on less and less ground.
Long story less long, hunting's getting tougher for everybody because more and more are finding themselves accessible to less and less. Coyotes seem better at reacting and adapting to the increased pressure and their behavior changes in response to those pressures.
Leonard, I wish when you were up here that there would have been a way to turn you loose under the moon to call and see how those same skittish coyotes reacted under cover of darkness. In my area, three hours east of where you were at, the pressure on coyotes by dogwagons and gunracks is the same, and the coyotes typically go completely nocturnal by mid-December, if not earlier. If they would have let us call with lights just to see what came in and how it acted/ reacted, it would have been very interesting to see first hand.
In ten or twenty years, in Kansas at least, our system of hunting will be parallel to that observed in Europe, where only those "with" will be allowed to hunt by invitation only. At first, predators will be scorned as a threat to the profit-generating resource of deer, turkeys, and upland gamebirds. But, as calling's popularity grows, those that are allowed to profit from the people's game will come to view coyotes as just another opportunity, at which time the rest of us will be turned away as well.
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I am only one. But still, I am one. I cannot do everything, but still, I can do something; and, because I cannot do everything, I will not refuse to do something that I can do.
Posts: 5438 | From: The gun-lovin', gun-friendly wild, wild west | Registered: Jan 2003
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keekee
Knows what it's all about
Member # 465
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posted March 15, 2005 10:34 PM
Im seeing the change here first hand now. More and more predator hunters every year. And I can also see a change in the areas I hunt. More and more hunters will hit the woods to call predators. It will get alot worse before it gets better!
Even the DNR is seeing it...They changed the laws here so that you can not hunt on goverment land with a rifle from Oct to Jan...Predator hunters, and deer hunters didnt mix! So, they changed the law.They didnt want rifles being shot while the deer hunters were in the stands I gess. Dont matter to me I will just pack the shotgun. But never the less they seen the rise in predator hunters!
10 years from now I see predator hunting being right up there with deer and turkey hunting! And if they can find a way to make money off of it they will. Guiding, leases, or what ever. I think that in 10 years you wont be geting calls from farmers wanting you to come shoot the coyotes, someone will pay to hunt them!
Brent
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Kee's Custom Calls
http://www.keescalls.com
Posts: 295 | From: Southern Ohio | Registered: Dec 2004
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R.Shaw
Peanut Butter Man, da da da da DAH!
Member # 73
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posted March 16, 2005 05:12 AM
Ten years from now, I see little difference in the number of callers that exists today. There will still be many hunters who try, fail, and quit. Just like today. And there will be the die hard callers who have taken lessons from people like Steve. The sport will have ebbs and flows like any other.
There is no glory and very little money to be obtained while predator hunting. Only to a few people would a shoulder mount of a coyote mean as much as a trophy whitetail. A world record whitetail was killed just north of me last year and the original rack sold for 6 figures.
With endorsements and speaking engagements, the fellows grossed close to half a million. Try doing that with a coyote. Not near the participation in a sport when it is almost 100% personal satisfication.
Around here coyotes are educated without ever hearing a call. I do not see a few extra first-time callers affecting my success. Heck, I still educate my fair share each year the way it is.
Innovations. I don't see much more in the future. There are just so many ways you can make prey sounds or coyote vocalizations. We are close to that now. Technology. Leonard you remember what Krusty was trying to do with the flipper light. How long has that thing been around?
What will affect my future predator calling is the number of coyotes. My main concern is disease. We have had mange in my part of the country for over 10 years. I believed each year that it would get better, but that has not been the case. The number of coyotes infected has actually increased. Ten years ago, I would have bet it would have run it's course by now. Not so.
From the MO think tank
Randy
Posts: 545 | From: Nebraska | Registered: Jan 2003
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Bryan J
Cap and Trade Weenie
Member # 106
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posted March 16, 2005 09:18 AM
I have thought on this topic for a few days now. I see the future as far as I’m concerned going along these lines. The circles that I draw around heavy populated areas on maps for productive starting places will get bigger in time. Pictures that I post on the internet will either be taken in my yard or will have next to zero back ground. I see successful predator callers migrating to private boards or e-mail to share their stories to avoid the inevitable “Where do you go? I don’t want specifics just a general area.” E-mails. I see my answers getting more and more vague to this question when asked. I see a generation of predator callers that will rely on technology to call the critters and may loose time in the field if their call malfunctions. There will be more and more accusations of “talking in code”, simply because some things need to be experienced to be understood or believed.
The best has already been from a hunting standpoint. I think the best is yet to come from the marketing end as the new guys look for the “magic bullet” for success.
In the end the guys that know the coyote that he is hunting or willing to put the time in will continue to be successful, and the popular debates will live on. ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
Posts: 599 | From: Utah | Registered: Feb 2003
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted March 16, 2005 11:01 AM
Wow! Real "food for thought".
Does anybody else see the dreaded Bureaucracy worming it's way into how it's done and when
(& where) we do it? Or, just to generate revenue.....yeah, right!
Heck, I've been talking in code for years, depending on who I'm talking to.
Good hunting. LB
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 31450 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
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DAA
Utah/Promoted WESTERN REGIONAL Hunt Director
Member # 11
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posted March 16, 2005 12:06 PM
Bryan, it sounds like you and I think a lot alike. I've been operating in the mode you describe for several years now.
- DAA
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"Oh yeah, they're gonna talk to you, and talk to you, and talk to you about individual freedom, but they see a free individual, it's gonna scare 'em." -- George Hanson, Easy Rider, 1969.
Rocky Mountain Varmint Hunter
Posts: 2676 | From: Salt Lake City, UT | Registered: Jan 2003
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UTcaller
NEVADA NIGHT FIGHTER
Member # 8
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posted March 16, 2005 12:40 PM
I am right there with you guys(Bryan,DAA)
I am VERY vague with respect to where and how I call.I might tell people that I use distress calls mixed in with howls but that's about the extent of it.The little tricks of the trade as it were,are to be learned over time in the field.And as far as where to hunt I will always say a good place to start is in Utah,Nevada,and Wyoming. ![[Wink]](wink.gif)
You can usually tell the guys that don't have alot of experience with calling,They share all there spots,or ask for a good spot.And tell you exactly what they have been doing to have good success.(Unless they are trying to sell,or market something)
Utah used to be great for calling coyotes,I still manage to kill coyotes.But it is getting harder and harder to kill numbers of coyotes on a given trip.My two cents.GOOD HUNTING C.O
[ March 16, 2005, 12:44 PM: Message edited by: UTcaller ]
Posts: 1612 | From: Utah | Registered: Jan 2003
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Rich Higgins
unknown comic
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posted March 16, 2005 01:30 PM
I take anyone calling with me that asks. I take them to the best places I know. I show them everything I know. I may even make them a howler and show them how and when to use it. Then I post on this board and complain because the coyotes don't respond like they did twenty or thirty years ago.
One consideration regarding "regulation" of our predators. Game management by ballot initiative is becoming more commomplace. It is not unrealistic to believe that a nice little lady that just watched "Bambi" for the second time this week will decide if there will be a season imposed on coyote callers. By the same token she may have just watched a her beloved Pomeranian (shades of Kathy Lee Gifford and Sharon Osbourn)get crunched and carried off by a local urban coyote.
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Bryan J
Cap and Trade Weenie
Member # 106
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posted March 16, 2005 02:23 PM
I could tell right away from Leonard’s response that I was talking about current events oh well I’m slow. LOL I knew DAA and Utcaller could relate. However, like Rich, I would rather share a spot with someone who has an idea what they are doing. I don’t have any cutting edge information to pass along anyway.
Rich I admire you for taking people to your hot spots, particularly the local guys. I would hope that they respect the spots that you took them in exchange for the knowledge you passed on.
Ok, Leonard my head is in the sand. Help me pull it out.
I hate the thoughts of the Bureaucracy getting more involved but the potential is real. I guess I’m sitting in one of only three states that you can kill a coyote without a license? I absolutely hate the thought of applying for a coyote tag anywhere! Your experience in California with the mountain lion gives you insight on this potential. Are you seeing familiar signs?
Posts: 599 | From: Utah | Registered: Feb 2003
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