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Author
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Topic: What would you do?
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Cdog911
"There are some ideas so absurd only an intellectual could believe them."--George Orwell.
Member # 7
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posted June 18, 2006 07:08 AM
Not to point a finger, but the puppies thread steered itself into an ethics question and I'm interested in how other guys here would handle this situation.
Situation: You're calling with another hunter and, out of the blue, he shoots a protected animal. Because it's up front today, let's say it's a "chicken hawk". Now, considering that the term was derived to identify what rural people regarded as a chicken-killing menace, it indicates to me that the user often times has a bias toward raptors for unfounded and unsubstantiated reasons. But, that aside, raptors are still protected and shooting one violates no fewer than about 6 (and as many as 12) federal laws and is, as such, a felony.
What if it is a non-game species like a meadowlark or bluejay?
What if it wasn't a non-game animal? Instead, it's a game animal out of season like a squirrel or doe deer?
Personally, I was raised by a dad who was my hunter's safety instructor. My brother and I both went into law enforcement and my secondary education was directed at the conservation law enforcement profession. I also spent most of my academic career researching raptors and have a rather deep-seated appreciation for the role they play in the big picture. As such, my personal feelings are very strong on this issue and it would matter not which group of animals you choose to kill without reason. All species bear equal importance in the system and ranking one's importance over another is purely of human construct.
Therefore, if you were hunting with me and you shot a bird of prey, a non-game species, or a game species out of season, I would first consider you to be an intolerable slob hunter, I would secondly advise you that your ass is walking home, and third, I would sign the tickets when the game warden and/ or deputy sheriff responded to my call.
Just so y'all know where I stand. The law is the law. If you don't like it, provide the evidence that warrants it being changed. Then, do so. Until then, violating it makes you a criminal, a poacher and a thief.
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I am only one. But still, I am one. I cannot do everything, but still, I can do something; and, because I cannot do everything, I will not refuse to do something that I can do.
Posts: 5438 | From: The gun-lovin', gun-friendly wild, wild west | Registered: Jan 2003
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DAA
Utah/Promoted WESTERN REGIONAL Hunt Director
Member # 11
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posted June 18, 2006 07:53 AM
Well... I'm certainly not a hardliner like you Lance. I'm inclined to allow a little bit of wiggle room for common sense.
- DAA
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"Oh yeah, they're gonna talk to you, and talk to you, and talk to you about individual freedom, but they see a free individual, it's gonna scare 'em." -- George Hanson, Easy Rider, 1969.
Rocky Mountain Varmint Hunter
Posts: 2676 | From: Salt Lake City, UT | Registered: Jan 2003
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Tim Behle
Administrator MacNeal Sector
Member # 209
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posted June 18, 2006 07:54 AM
Here at Mi Ranchito Del Pollio, ( You knew I'd have to respond to this thread, didn't you ) I've got about 30 chickens, but I figure that God keeps about 30 million hawks in the area.
As long as he keeps his hawks out of my chickens, we have no problems, but once in a while, one of his little sinners gets confused. And if it takes sending the little sinner to meet Jesus to get the rules straightened out, I'm willing to talk him into going.
Sometimes well meaning politicians make blanket laws, that effect a lot more than is needed, and when the need for protection has passed, they aren't very good about removing those laws.
Those rapter protections laws were good laws at the time they were written, but that time is long passed.
A couple of years ago, a Raven built a nest on top of a transformer and laid an egg before it was found. ( Once they lay an egg, the nest is protected ) The Electric company spent over $25,000 building a temporary feed so that transformer with the nest could be de-energised until the little one flew away. That $25,000 was just split up and added to everyones electric bill, but just how many of those nests do we need to protect before your bill has gone up higher than you can afford?
At what point do we say enough is enough?
If I wrote about shooting a coyote that I had seen walking past my chicken coop, you would probably have words of praise for me, but if I wrote of shooting a white tailed hawk flying off with a chicken in it's talons, you would want to turn me in. Do you see the conflict there? Hawks are nothing more than little coyotes with feathers. And coyotes aren't near as much trouble.
Those rapter protection laws are antiquated and need to be repealed. I'm not saying we need to open season on rapters, but they deserve no more protection than the pigions.
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Personally, I carry a gun because I'm too young to die and too old to take
an ass kickin'.
Posts: 3160 | From: Five Miles East of Vic, AZ | Registered: Jun 2003
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Rich
2,000th post PAKMAN
Member # 112
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posted June 18, 2006 07:55 AM
I would never shoot a hawk, or other protected raptor. If I see my hunting buddy shoot one, he won't be my hunting buddy anymore. I once had a friend who poached deer and turkey. When I learned that he was doing that, I turned him in to the local Game Warden. My own personal feelings concerning the taking of deer out of season is this----Shooting a deer to feed your family is one thing, while making a practice of shooting deer or turkey just because you like the thrill is something else again.
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If you call the coyotes in close, you won't NEED a high dollar range finder.
Posts: 2854 | From: Iowa | Registered: Feb 2003
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted June 18, 2006 08:01 AM
quote:
I would secondly advise you that your ass is walking home
..even if it is HIS truck?
Are situations always black and white, good or evil?
I'm not sure that certain people blindly follow unjust and unpopular law, written by someone far away? For instance, some ranchers are anti lion. Some rural folks are anti eagle, anti wolf.
Did everybody drive 55MPH when it was the law of the land? In fact, nobody did. Fudging on taxes is admired, by some?
In some jurisdictions, it is against the law to drive off existing road, even if the road is impassable, due to a wash out.
I am amazed at the number of relatively small offenses that have been jacked up into a class ? felony, since I was young. When I was a kid, before there was a law, I may have shot a chicken hawk, so I wouldn't want to cast the first stone. Also, I'm a city slicker, the ones that pass all the laws that country folks have to abide. I have always observed many more fish and game violation by rural folks than dudes, but I am not the Crusader that some are. I have my creeds, but occasionally, I have difficulty judging others.
Good hunting. LB
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 31449 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
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Cdog911
"There are some ideas so absurd only an intellectual could believe them."--George Orwell.
Member # 7
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posted June 18, 2006 08:49 AM
Leonard,
I usually drive, and if I'm not driving, the game warden will likely give me a ride to where someone can pick me up. That's why God made cell phones, and there are very few places in my area where a cell phone doesn't work. If I'm in one, I go to the next hill or as far as I need to walk. As my recently excused "hunting partner" leaves me standing by the road, I will be logging his tag, vehicle description, time of offense and location for my testimony. There was a time - not sure if it's still so - where violation of the federal raptor protection laws offered a reward of half the assessed fines to the reporting party upon conviction. On an eagle, the minimum is a $5,000 fine. I have no problem dropping a dime on a game slob that I have no intentions of ever hunting with again when I think of all I can buy with what's left of $2,500 after taxes.
As far as raptors causing losses, that's still as simple as calling the game warden, working with him/ her to assess the problem and devising a workable solution. I've seen them work as a liason between the property owener and the USFWS agent on that very type of problem and come to successful resolutions. In my area, and as far as farm poultry goes being what I usually see as fact, the problem is as much the producer's for creating an opportunity for the bird to snag a free meal as it is the bird doing what it is hard-wired to do. There are viable solutuions that don't involve breaking the law.
If you break the law, you break the law. No excuses. Everyone bends the law a bit, myself included, but that's a matter of degrees. Infraction? Misdemeanor? Felony? There are differences between the three.
As far as someone shooting a deer out of desparate need, I've seen people do it, and I've seen them arrested. Judges in this area frown upon the claims of social parasites that say they had no other option - they had to feed their familes. Bull! There are jobs out there, as well as people willing to help you out. Doing so is no different in my eyes than to enter someone's home in their absence and helping yourself to their pantry. You're still stealing, but instead of it being from one person or family, you're stealing from all the people in your state who hold joint ownership of that resource.
I've got one guy here locally who would love to snag me in a violation because he sincerely wants to destroy my credibility as a writer and sportsman. He's gone so far as to make false reports against me that have resulted in multiple visits from the local mallard marshal. It was only in the past year that the constable heeded my advice that should he continue to investigate me without reasonable cause in doing so, he and I would meet together with his immediate supervisor and the Director of Law Enforcement for the state and come to a mutual understanding of what contitutes harassment. I have a lot at stake by allowing myself to bend a law, even once. It doesn't happen. And I have no tolerance for those who think otherwise.
Yeah, I'm a hardliner and a hard ass, but being so makes sure there are no misunderstandings and no confusion over how much "wiggle room" you have if you gun for me.
A good friend of mine was the State Director of the Division of Law Enforcement for our Dept. of Wildlife & Parks. One day, while riding along with him, we were talking about hunting with other people and he said that he dreaded the thought and very rarely did so any more simply because even the best hunters committed error after error in the field and he found great distaste in compromising his principals if even for a moment. Rather than "turn a cheek", he just turned them down when they called, and made it a point to say that he checked them out and gave them the same patrol attention as anyone else when on duty.
Again, if you don't like the laws, find a way to work within them, or get them changed. But it's wrong to violate those same laws just because you personally disagree with them.
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I am only one. But still, I am one. I cannot do everything, but still, I can do something; and, because I cannot do everything, I will not refuse to do something that I can do.
Posts: 5438 | From: The gun-lovin', gun-friendly wild, wild west | Registered: Jan 2003
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TA17Rem
Hello, I'm the legendary Tim Anderson, Field Marshall, Southern Minneesota Sector
Member # 794
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posted June 18, 2006 08:53 AM
Cdog911: I see this thread is directed at me and i think i should clear up a few things. First off youre beloved chicken hawk is alive and well, now you can sleep better tonight knowing this. There are other means of correcting a problem with a chicken hawk without haveing to shoot it. Like Tim stated earlyier the laws for feathered pred. is out dated. For youre information there are more birds of prey here than there are fox. I enjoy haveing fox and coyotes around, I like to watch them hunt and play and i also love to hunt them.
There is room on this planet for all of Gods creatures. I don't think coyotes should be shot when there fur is not prime but that is my belief. But over time from talking with other hunters and understanding there views on the subject its ok with me if they shoot a coyote in summer months and when they have finished i will offer to give them a ride back to town.
Now lets get down to the word you used, i believe it was slob- hunter. First off if i could put my hand through the screen and grab you by the neck i would punch you right in the nose. You know nothing about me and right away you want to stick a label on me well shame on you Cdog911. LOL
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What if I told you, the left wing and right wing both belong to same bird!
Posts: 5062 | From: S.D. | Registered: Jan 2006
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Okanagan
Budding Spin Doctor
Member # 870
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posted June 18, 2006 09:36 AM
Cdog911, thank you for your candor. Any writing of this sort tells us far more about the person writing than it does about his subject, and you have proven that rule. It must be very hard to go through life on duty to catch and punish every infraction you encounter in others. Thank you for telling us about yourself. I will stay as far as possible away from you at all times and would prefer not even to have a cup of coffee with you. If you are married and have children, my heart goes out to them. No anger or meanness intended here, just feel bad for you and anyone around you. You should not be in law enforcement.
[ June 18, 2006, 09:38 AM: Message edited by: Okanagan ]
Posts: 269 | From: 49th Parrallel | Registered: Jun 2006
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DAA
Utah/Promoted WESTERN REGIONAL Hunt Director
Member # 11
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posted June 18, 2006 10:33 AM
"Those rapter protection laws are antiquated and need to be repealed. I'm not saying we need to open season on rapters, but they deserve no more protection than the pigions."
Amen Brother.
On the subject of not allowing any wiggle room, zero tolerance, all offenses will be reported and prosecuted, I just can't understand that thinking.
A real scenario for you. And my apologies if my reporting of the laws aren't accurate, this is just what LEO's in both states have told me. In Utah, it's not legal to lean your rifle over the hood of your truck. Shooting from in, on or around a vehicle is a no-no. In Wyoming, you're fine as long as both feet are on the ground - pulling off a two track and leaning the rifle over the hood is fine. I'm shooting prairie dogs near the border. Get out, take a few potshots off the hood in Wyoming. Drive 400 yards and do the same thing in Utah. This is something I've actually done, many times. And you would turn me in for that? Walk your ass 15 miles to get a signal on your cell phone, or leave me to do the same? Frankly, I feel that is just assinine and unreasonable.
I'm sorry Lance, but we can't be hunting partners ![[Smile]](smile.gif) . LOL!
- DAA
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"Oh yeah, they're gonna talk to you, and talk to you, and talk to you about individual freedom, but they see a free individual, it's gonna scare 'em." -- George Hanson, Easy Rider, 1969.
Rocky Mountain Varmint Hunter
Posts: 2676 | From: Salt Lake City, UT | Registered: Jan 2003
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Cdog911
"There are some ideas so absurd only an intellectual could believe them."--George Orwell.
Member # 7
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posted June 18, 2006 10:48 AM
TA-
I started this thread by saying, "Not to point a finger,..." which I meant. Your comment simply compelled me to start a thread on this subject. Nothing I've ever read in your posts ever made me regard you as a slob hunter. As far as the hawk, I had no knowledge as to the outcome of that encounter you had with the hawk and I'm glad to hear it is okay. Gladder (is that a word) to know that you didn't step over the line. But, since you're feeling guilty,...
And, no, I would not have lost any sleep over it, (God makes lots of hawks) but Okanagan, if you go thru life observing and conforming to only those laws that suit your personal interests, then (Okanagan), I don't care to share a cup of coffee with you anyway. You're just not my kind of people. Call me a snob. But be assured, I mean nothing personal. If you had ever hunted with me or knew me, I don't think you'd regard my previous comments as being out of character for me. Those with whom I have shared a camp will attest to that fact, and I'm really not all that bad a guy.
Dennis,
I'm in a hurry and made it only so far as the part about there being no obligation to report a crime for common folks, society of informants, and McCarthyism. Really? Isn't what your contribution is eluding to pretty much in support of anarchism? And I'm curious why you would have such ready access to a site like that. Hmmm? (scratches head).
For about seven years, I was a sworn law enforcement officer. I didn't surrender my ethics or my conscience when I turned my commissioned deputy's card back to the Sheriff and Undersheriff. I didn't leave that profession because I was forced out by my own improprieties, but rather, because I saw an opportunity on the near horizon that better suited my demeanor and talents. In my heart, I still carry the same sense of honor and conduct as I did when my wallet lie heavy with a badge. In Kansas, if you see a crime (as an LEO) and you fail to act upon it, you are, yourself, guilty of a crime and can be charged, convicted and sentenced for it. As such, I am proudly a snitch. Guess that means the potential pool of future hunting partners around here just got a whole lot smaller. And, I always thought this was a more upstanding group of sportsmen. I'll be careful not to judge all by the remarks of a few.
And Okanagan, your post reveals equally as much about your character. Except that I'm at the other extreme. Just where I want to be. My kids and my wife are fine. All three of them are highly respectful of the law and consider them to be mandates rather than friendly suggestions. Sure, we miss out on a lot (apparently), but that's a cross we'll bear. At least we don't carry the guilt of committing crimes against our neighbors. I presume you think there is room for flexibility within the construct of the law and it's all legal until you get caught. In that, I disagree. Believe it or not, one can live within those laws and still maintain a rather high standard of living, quality-wise.
There have been many times as an LEO when I used my sense of judgment and may have let someone off with a warning, but I hold a different outlook on game violators. Poachers, game violators and trap thieves are all held in the same high disregard in my book. And if that makes you not want to hunt with me, believe me, I'm very happy with that. Thanks.
(Edited for spellcheck.)
[ June 18, 2006, 10:53 AM: Message edited by: Cdog911 ]
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I am only one. But still, I am one. I cannot do everything, but still, I can do something; and, because I cannot do everything, I will not refuse to do something that I can do.
Posts: 5438 | From: The gun-lovin', gun-friendly wild, wild west | Registered: Jan 2003
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted June 18, 2006 10:53 AM
Something to ponder, blindly following laws with a feel good intention, but narrow in scope.
Lions have been needlessly protected in California for almost thirty(30) years. They are so numerous that they have been preying on humans for years. In one case, they have been decimating a bighorn sheep herd in the Sierras. Lions, that are protected and sheep that are protected....from humans. There are people that would be tempted to perform a bit of vigilante justice, if they observed a lion stalking a bighorn lamb. A cellphone solution is no solution, at all.
Good moral debate. LB
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 31449 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
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Buffalobob
Knows what it's all about
Member # 825
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posted June 18, 2006 11:12 AM
Being retired after twenty years of being the Big Chief fish cop and treehugger, I will say I have put a lot of people in jail for stuff. I have cooperated on US Fish & Wildlife investigations that put people in jail.
Growing up in rural Alabama on a farm, I am well versed in the chicken hawk mentality and that was what was practiced on the farm although in all the years I was growing up with chickens on the farm, a hawk never actually got one that I was aware of.
Humans are complex organisms which respond differently to different situations. I think nothing of running at 130-140mph on an interstate with traffic while racing another car. I am sure all of the mothers with a minivan full of kids think I should be put in jail. Poaching deer and shooting raptors irritate me no end. Shooting does during buck season and letting them lay irritates me. On the other hand I have had to give up one of my favorite pasttimes while being employed in my particualr field. That little game involved using a 17 Rem on late season ducks that would sit out in the middle of lakes beyond shotgun range. If you set up on the downwind side of the lake, the dead ducks will float and be pushed to you. I am sure duck hunters didn't appreciate my version of duckhunting and as I said I gave that up decades ago because it was/is illegal even though it is a lot of fun.
I spent more than a few years of my career trying to protect the endangered species such as the blackfooted ferret. I was fired long ago for trying to prevent the irradication of the Colorado squawfish and humpedback chub in the San Juan River basin. Lots of hunters have very strong feelings against wolves but once again my whole career has been directed to trying to restore fish and animals and habitat. I did that job because when I got up in the morning I looked forward to my work and when I came home at night I felt I had done something worthwhile. Few things made me feel better than putting people in jail.
For those of you who don't know, I will say that I have never in my life killed a coyote and when I registered here I was going to start up coyote hunting but it seems that y'all frown on shooting coyotes during the denning season so I have held off on going coyote hunting until everybody thinks it is the correct time of the year. I am amazed no end at the fact that most of you self regulate yourselves.
Posts: 90 | From: Potomac River | Registered: Mar 2006
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TA17Rem
Hello, I'm the legendary Tim Anderson, Field Marshall, Southern Minneesota Sector
Member # 794
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posted June 18, 2006 11:36 AM
Buffalobob: enjoy youre retirement and get out there and shoot some coyotes. I'll try to look the
other way. good shooting and have fun.
P.S. the only reason we in S.C. Minn. frown on shooting coyotes out of season is because we don't have that many and we like to leave some for seed. More fun to hunt alot of them instead of just one.
[ June 18, 2006, 11:43 AM: Message edited by: TA17Rem ]
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What if I told you, the left wing and right wing both belong to same bird!
Posts: 5062 | From: S.D. | Registered: Jan 2006
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted June 18, 2006 11:43 AM
some excellent input.
Bob, I just can't bow down to every single (ill advised) law, until such time it is repealed. (whether I observe it, or not, such as 55MPH)
Some of the LEO that I know believe they are above the law , (laws of man and God) especially concerning traffic laws and adultery. My former Lieutenant, L.A. County Sheriff brother-in-law was guilty of running around on my sister and over limit on trout, but not sited. Driving with that guy was like red lights and siren all the time, to the grocery store, U turns against traffic, blowing stop signs; flash a badge, etc.
But, yeah, many of us do try to cut a little slack to coyotes, whenever possible. It's not a law, it's a belief system.
Some things just do not lend themselves to a black and white interpretation.
Good hunting. LB
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 31449 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
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Locohead
World Famous Smoke Dancer
Member # 15
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posted June 18, 2006 01:00 PM
On more than one occasion I've been witness to accidental law breakage. I've seen many hen pheasants shot, roosters badly hit and lost and even big game animals taken in the wrong accidentally. I been around lots of party hunting.
I believe that if I were to accidentally kill a large game animal or accidentally kill two. I'd have to think twice about turning myself in. Some Game wardens just need to hear the truth and will understand a mistake. Many others are just looking to put you on the front page just so that they can see their name in print as the guy making the bust. Some folks are just plain black and white. I live my life in the grey! Perhaps I've indecisive, neutral, or just too easy going - but I'd sooner give a real heart to heart talk to a buddy on how and what it means to be a genuine sportsman. And believe me, I have on several occasions had talks with folks about not drinking while driving while hunting, not drinking around guns, and watching what the hell they are shooting at. I even severely chastised a friend for shooting 3 does and not finding them before finding his fourth one hit. I wasn't even hunting with him and it made me really mad.
But I'd never be a nark. It would just plain embarrass me.
NOTE: I am in no way advocating turning ones back to bad stuff, nor do I condone slob hunting. I, like Lance am just telling how I am and what I'd do.
I can say with all honesty however, that Lance is a wonderful hunting partner. He is a very interesting person and very well versed on many outdoor issues. He is passionate about the things he loves including his family and the outdoors. Lance isn't the only hard ass I know I just so happen to be
a very soft one! ![[Wink]](wink.gif)
[ June 18, 2006, 01:57 PM: Message edited by: Locohead ]
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I love my critters and chick!!!! :)
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Az-Hunter
Hi, I'm Vic WELCOME TO THE U.S. Free baloney sandwiches here
Member # 17
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posted June 18, 2006 01:10 PM
What an interesting,and revealing thread. Laws; Im one of those who looks at them from two sides, there is(excuse the spelling) "malum en fey" and "malum prohibitum", one being a wrong of moral or ethical principle,the other being a wrong of mans created law.
A for instance, your wife is about to deliver a baby,it's 3 in the morning,no traffic,and your rushing to the hospital. On the way you blow thru three red lights,no traffic,no real risk;as I see it, you are guilty of no real wrong,other than the fact you violated a made up law by mans own hand...just scribbling on a piece of paper.
Contrast that with say, commision of murder, which is a violation of human morals and ethics and gods law if you believe in such things, big difference to my mind?
I guess where I fall down on the raptor shooting scenario is this, if the hawk is indeed harrassing your chickens, I have no problem with a guy shooting it, no harm,no fowl:)
If I hunted with a guy who just happily shot at every hawk we passed, yeah I might ask the simple question, "why", do you want to do that? God knows, Ive killed a bunch of raptors in my lifetime, as kids we just looked at them as targets of opportunity, like jackrabbits etc. Now of course, I would never think of shooting one,and have mild regret at those many I tipped over with 22s and shotguns.
The part I can't get my mind around is turning in a hunting partner for a violation? A stern warning,or chastizing of him for doing some silly shit is one thing, but asking to be let out of truck to walk,call him in to be ticketed...come on now, thats silly as hell in my opinion.
Im much more concerned with the safety habits and gun handling of a hunting partner, than I am of with what he chooses to take a shot at. A hunting accident,or dangerous firearm act,is far harder to reconcile to my mind, than a guy taking a pot shot at a damned hawk.
I can walk away from a stupid act of hawk shooting or poaching,and choose not to take the guy again, but turn him in, it's just not warranted in my mind.
As for coyotes, I don't hunt them in summer,nor do any of my hunting partners,if they do, it's not with me present. I encourage them to leave them alone till winter,and most understand why. To my mind it would be like shooting a buck deer with shed antlers, what kind of trophy is that? I believe Im more disgusted when I see a glory shot photo of a guy squatting behind a summertime coyote, than If a guy was holding a hawk by the wingtip and grinnin' big for the camera...but thats just me:)
Posts: 1627 | From: 5 miles west of Tim | Registered: Jan 2003
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Andy L
HI, I'M THE NEW MODERATOR OF THE CENTRAL MISSOURI FORUM, PULL MY FINGER!
Member # 642
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posted June 18, 2006 01:23 PM
I have a scenario for ya.
How about a fella that owns alot (relatively)of land. He raises cattle and crops. Hes not a hunter, but loves turkey and deer meat. He has alot of turkey and deer on his farm and they eat his food and live on his land year round.
If this farmer wants to eat a turkey or a deer, even though it may not be season and he may not buy a tag, and he may not be desperate to feed his family, is there a problem with him eating one when he wants?
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Andy
Posts: 2645 | From: Central Missouri | Registered: Apr 2005
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Locohead
World Famous Smoke Dancer
Member # 15
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posted June 18, 2006 01:39 PM
Perhaps if you ate the turkey before killing it...like Jack prefers his monkey brains!
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I love my critters and chick!!!! :)
Posts: 2219 | From: CO | Registered: Jan 2003
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TA17Rem
Hello, I'm the legendary Tim Anderson, Field Marshall, Southern Minneesota Sector
Member # 794
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posted June 18, 2006 02:01 PM
AZ-hunter good read.
Andy L. If the rancher is going to eat the turkey i would'nt have a problem with him shooting it out of season.
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What if I told you, the left wing and right wing both belong to same bird!
Posts: 5062 | From: S.D. | Registered: Jan 2006
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JoeF
resides "back east"
Member # 228
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posted June 18, 2006 02:13 PM
I've started about 99 replies to this thread and have deleted them. That Az. guy kinda covered 98.5 of them.
I really hope that this is a case of our fragile medium striking us about the face and kneck. I don't think that anyone advocates indescriminately shooting a hawk w/o reason these days.
What troubles me and what I hope I'm interpreting wrong is CDogs definition of reason and the fact that he has repeatedly stated how he would put an animal's welfare before a persons. Or was that an animal's law before a people's. Kinda like those PETA folks.
He believes that a rural persons first, only, and best defense against an animal problem should be a gov. agency. Sorry, city boy. Don't work that way. Were you the guy who asked "where's Bush" a few hours after the hurricane hit?
I'd never hunt twice with someone who indescriminately shot a hawk. I'm even less fond of people who elevate animals to some higher plain.
Cdog, I'm glad you gave up law enforcement and I truely hope your fish do not endure too much pain.
Posts: 646 | From: Midwest | Registered: Aug 2003
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Cdog911
"There are some ideas so absurd only an intellectual could believe them."--George Orwell.
Member # 7
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posted June 18, 2006 02:32 PM
Buaffalbob,
Welcome to HM. If you keep your ears open long enough and put some feelers out, it usually isn't long until you find a coyote that needs killing because of his habit of crossing wires with people. Mostly happens during denning season and, to most folks here, is an acceptable reason to circumvent our self-imposed moratorium on hunting outside of fur season. This is the only reason I'll warm a barrel when the fur isn't peelable and especially when there's a chance of whacking a wet bitch. I try my best - within my experience - to identify the specific offending coyote and target that individual and regard it as an opportunity to return the favor to a landowner who has graciously allowed me trespass privileges on their land, oftentimes for many years, so I might do what I so love doing - calling coyotes. Once the problem is neutralized and no longer exists, the guns get locked up until the phone rings again.
There are guys here like Cal Taylor and Scott Huber that elevate this business to an art form and are very knowledgeable and effective at what they do. My hat is off to them. But killing for the sake of killing at this time of the year (or at anytime) pets me wrong as well. And Vic, I'm not offended by your remark about hero shots in the off season. I've included them recently to add some variety to the board, but each of these coyotes were pointed at by a cattle producer or homeowner in the local "outback" and the order/ request received to kill 'em. We did. In a place where 98% of the real estate is privately owned, you do what you're asked to do, or someone else has your hunting spot next season.
Loco - I understand what you're saying, and I guess where I separate your two arguments is that accidentally taking an animal because of misidentification or whatever is vastly different than the guy that kills a protected animal with intent and forethought. The accident is just that. An accident. The latter is a crime.
Intent is the distinction.
Dave,
Does that mean you're not buying me coffee either?
Do understand that I'm not stupid. If it's fifteen miles to the nearest cell access, I'll keep my mouth shut until I get home. If you were, let's say, to buy me coffee and then committed your transgression, I might not report you, but I probably wouldn't be calling you to go hunting again anytime too soon either. But, around here, you're never more than a mile from a road and I walk 14 miles a day at work, so I don't see it as a problem.
And Vic, I guess it's all about how you define sportsman and hunter. How often are we hunters quick to defend ourselves by pointing out that poachers are not "hunters", they're "criminals", that we don't want to be lumped in with by the general, non-hunting public and that we take offense at them being called "hunters"? I don't think turning in a criminal is silly as much as it is consistent.
As far as antiquated raptor laws, I dont totally disagree. Yup, there are more great horned owls out there than you can shake a stick at. Used to be the same for red-tailed hawks. But, West Nile Virus put a big hurt on all those around here. Those that are left are still being assaulted by well-meaning farmers who once saw a red tail stoop on a covey of quail or heard about it happening over coffee, and, ever since, now regards all "chicken hawks" as being the ultimate demise of the bobwhite in North America. Never mind that they've forever eliminated the necessary habitat by turning primo quail habitat into just another wheatfield and that they fail to understand that their actions serve to do more damage than any hawk will ever do. Without some regard for the needs of the resource, there will be neither hawks or quail, yet the blame will go to the former. In the end, I think those laws that protect all raptors, and which were drafted and implemented with the intent of protecting specific species during the days of DDT and Silent Spring need to be replaced with new laws that allow for controlling those pop'ns as a means of managing other species that serve as their table fare. The old laws were passed for a reason and conditions have changed. Review, reassessment, and adjustments should be made specific to the local conditions. If your area is overrun with hawks, the state should be able to do something to resolve the problem. the same way if a landowner is having a problem, he or she should be able to protect their property. Be it from hawks or coyotes. No distinction in my book. But there are processes to be followed at this point in time and as long as the laws exist in their current state, I think it prudent that we follow them or seek for them to be changed. Bear in mind, though, that the public won't tolerate killing for the sake of killing. Therefore, maybe they should have an open season for consumptive users. Anyone got a good recipe for barred owl?
Andy,
Your question about everyone's feelings about a landowner or rancher helping himself to the resource just because he can is only a short hop from the same mindset that is gradually, but most certainly, killing the sport of hunting in this country. Kansas is a prime example. Through lease hunting and guiding, landowners have greedily laid claim to the wildlife resource - a public trust - as their own and are happily doing with it what they want. Rather than shooting a deer or turkey once in a while for personal consumption, justifying their actions because they've fed them and provided for their survival, they're just selling the rights to access, locking gates, and eliminating opportunities for middle class, taxpayers like me and many of my friends and customers who cannot afford $20 an acre to hunt deer for 10 days out of the year. It matters not to folks around here whether they're shooting them for personal consumption or selling them to people from out of state. The fact remains that they're stealing from the people of the state of Kansas to make a profit. Just my opinion, (which I'm certain will ruffle a few efeathers) and also the opinion of a local judge who heard the case of a guy whose shop was found to be full of turkey feathers peeled off dozens of wild turkeys he'd killed because they were "his". Turned out that they weren't, and he'd been money ahead buying turkeys at the Piggly Wiggly.
It's a good debate, and full of interesting replies to the original question: What would you do?
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I am only one. But still, I am one. I cannot do everything, but still, I can do something; and, because I cannot do everything, I will not refuse to do something that I can do.
Posts: 5438 | From: The gun-lovin', gun-friendly wild, wild west | Registered: Jan 2003
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Andy L
HI, I'M THE NEW MODERATOR OF THE CENTRAL MISSOURI FORUM, PULL MY FINGER!
Member # 642
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posted June 18, 2006 02:43 PM
You still didnt answer my question Lance. Does the fella in question need to be jailed? Were talking about two or three turkeys and one deer a year here. Not selling anything.
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Andy
Posts: 2645 | From: Central Missouri | Registered: Apr 2005
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Cdog911
"There are some ideas so absurd only an intellectual could believe them."--George Orwell.
Member # 7
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posted June 18, 2006 02:50 PM
Joe,
Where you said,
quote:
What troubles me and what I hope I'm interpreting wrong is CDogs definition of reason and the fact that he has repeatedly stated how he would put an animal's welfare before a persons. Or was that an animal's law before a people's. Kinda like those PETA folks.
enlighten me. And, first off, it's not the "animal's law". It's the law of the land - our laws - to which I refer.
Where did I put an animal's welfare before that of people? Did I chastise anyone who found themselves in an "us or them", hand to talon battle with a hawk? Don't recall doing that. Again, the scenario I offered was one in which you're hunting a stand and the guy you're with hauls off and shoots a hawk. You aren't set up over his chicken pen trying to get one that's wiped out half your flock. He just got bored, saw an opportunity and took it. No justification. No reason other than he simply couldn't control himself. Again, what would your reaction be? WHAT WOULD YOU DO? Slap him on the back? Give him a high five and an attaboy? From the rest of your remarks, I doubt it and therein lies the agreement between us.
My remarks are directed at killing protected animals simply due to an inability to control one's juvenile urges. And again, from the rest of your remarks, I think we actually agree but are unclear on certain details.
As far as the the post-hurricane remarks and relying on the government for your every need, you obvisouly don't know me too well. Then again, I'm sitting here wondering what the hell that has to do with someone blasting a hawk off a fence post when he was supposed to be coyote hunting. ![[Confused]](confused.gif) Can you say S-T-R-E-T-C-H?
Maybe it's a difference between where I live and that of others. Hereabouts, we have processes one call follow to fix what ails them, and it's done within the letter of the law. No one needs the government to fix their every problem, but the laws clearly expect that you do what needs to be done under the auspices of those authorities we pay to oversee the resources and who have the education and experience to ensure that the job is done properly and to everyone's benefit. If your state doesn't offer those opportunities, maybe you need to change the way things are done where you live.
It's been fun, boys, but I've got a shop full of deer heads that need my attention and, truth be told, I don't think there's much more of a chance of changing my mind on this as there is of me changing yours. Off to work.
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I am only one. But still, I am one. I cannot do everything, but still, I can do something; and, because I cannot do everything, I will not refuse to do something that I can do.
Posts: 5438 | From: The gun-lovin', gun-friendly wild, wild west | Registered: Jan 2003
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DAA
Utah/Promoted WESTERN REGIONAL Hunt Director
Member # 11
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posted June 18, 2006 02:50 PM
Naw, I'll still buy you a cup of coffee, if the opportunity presents.
Definitely, we won't be going hunting together, though.
My hunting time is my sanity time. The last thing I need is to bring the rat race with me by having someone along ready to pounce on the first mistake I make, and cost me a not insignificant amount in fines, and possibly much worse - confiscation of equipment, loss of hunting privileges, having a "record" etc. Anyone that would do that to a hunting partner, over something as stupid and trivial as some of the scenarios described in this thread, is someone I want as far away from me as possible when I'm out enjoying my precious sanity time. It's precisely the kind of bullshit I'm trying to escape and forget for a day or two. There will be plenty of my fellow men out to stick it in me over the slightest percieved transgression just as soon as I get back home to civilization...
- DAA
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"Oh yeah, they're gonna talk to you, and talk to you, and talk to you about individual freedom, but they see a free individual, it's gonna scare 'em." -- George Hanson, Easy Rider, 1969.
Rocky Mountain Varmint Hunter
Posts: 2676 | From: Salt Lake City, UT | Registered: Jan 2003
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