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Author
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Topic: Howling as a long range communication
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted July 17, 2005 06:37 PM
Had an interesting conversation this morning.
Do you believe that coyotes can convey a type of warning and even relay that warning from strange coyotes, to other coyotes further away, in a chain reaction?
I believe it may be possible. What do you think? If you think they can do this, can you give a example from your own experience?
Good hunting. LB
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 31462 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
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Cdog911
"There are some ideas so absurd only an intellectual could believe them."--George Orwell.
Member # 7
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posted July 17, 2005 08:08 PM
I wouldn't go so far as to say that they can convey specifics about a threat, but I believe that they can disseminate a warning to put everyone on about DefCon 1 - enough that it can make it harder for other coyotes in the area to be called. I look forward to what you guys in higher density areas have to say.
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I am only one. But still, I am one. I cannot do everything, but still, I can do something; and, because I cannot do everything, I will not refuse to do something that I can do.
Posts: 5438 | From: The gun-lovin', gun-friendly wild, wild west | Registered: Jan 2003
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onecoyote
Knows what it's all about
Member # 129
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posted July 17, 2005 09:00 PM
Humm...interesting. Only a coyote knows what goes on in a coyotes mind. I'd have to say a coyote has a way of doing what Leonard said. Example...You're just starting your stand and it sounds like 10 coyotes are all yepping not far away, that's happen to all of us. Are they telling you they know what's up? And all the other coyotes not to play the game? Your guess is as good as mine. One thing for sure, they are saying something?
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Great minds discuss ideas.....Average minds discuss events.....Small minds discuss people.....Eleanor Roosevelt.
Posts: 893 | From: Walker Lake Nevada. | Registered: Feb 2003
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Krustyklimber
prefers the bunny hugger pronunciation: ky o tee
Member # 72
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posted July 17, 2005 09:40 PM
Leonard,
In my own experience, in my own area, I don't believe they do.
Sound gets eaten up by the topography, the forest and thick brush, and there aren't enough coyotes, close enough together, to make a "voice chain".
I believe it's possible in areas with larger populations.
I mean after all isn't "group howling" something coyotes, especially those who compete for territory, do every night?
Don't they do so, to let the neighbors know they are still here, and to "warn them" not to invade?
Krusty 
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Think about how stupid the average person is, then realize that half of them are stupider than that!
Posts: 1912 | From: Deep in the Blue Ridge Mountains of Virginia | Registered: Jan 2003
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted July 17, 2005 10:37 PM
Higgins told me that Ed Sceery mentioned that if he had coyotes vocally responding on every stand, but they wouldn't come in, he felt the only solution was to drive at least five miles; Or, in other words out of range.
Danny, as an old Nevada night hunter, let me run this by ya.
Let us say that we are making a stand, nice and quiet, good spot, and yet a couple minutes into the stand,you have a pack howling at you....and they aren't even down wind.
So, next stand, same thing. And every stand, no takers, buit they lite up within a minute or two of beginning a stand!
I have seen this a number of times. The only solution I have ever come up with that works is to get the hell out of the area, and I'm talking more like ten or twenty miles: beat the jungle telegraph; so to speak.
Good hunting. LB
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
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Greenside
seems to know what he is talking about
Member # 10
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posted July 18, 2005 05:50 AM
I'm real skeptical. What was the trigger for the warning "howl" in the first place. Was it a response to another howl or prey distress call that could be heard by coyote farther down the line?
Dennis
Posts: 719 | From: IA | Registered: Jan 2003
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onecoyote
Knows what it's all about
Member # 129
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posted July 18, 2005 08:02 AM
Yep Leonard, I'd leave too. Been there done that one like most of us. That was before howling was a big thing, maybe that would have worked?
Nothing gets me more upset then to know you have coyotes all around you, but they don't want to play. Sometimes they can really be bad sports about it. ![[Wink]](wink.gif)
[ July 18, 2005, 08:04 AM: Message edited by: onecoyote ]
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Great minds discuss ideas.....Average minds discuss events.....Small minds discuss people.....Eleanor Roosevelt.
Posts: 893 | From: Walker Lake Nevada. | Registered: Feb 2003
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted July 18, 2005 09:14 AM
Greenside Dennis. Light shy, due to Utah road hunters.
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 31462 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
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Cdog911
"There are some ideas so absurd only an intellectual could believe them."--George Orwell.
Member # 7
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posted July 18, 2005 05:17 PM
quote:
In my own experience
It was about there that your argument fell apart.
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I am only one. But still, I am one. I cannot do everything, but still, I can do something; and, because I cannot do everything, I will not refuse to do something that I can do.
Posts: 5438 | From: The gun-lovin', gun-friendly wild, wild west | Registered: Jan 2003
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Cdog911
"There are some ideas so absurd only an intellectual could believe them."--George Orwell.
Member # 7
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posted July 18, 2005 05:39 PM
Leonard,
All personal opinion aside, I don't doubt that your suggestion is viable. All packing or group-oriented animals have evolved means by which they communicate. Visual cues, as well as audible. Since the security and physiological wellbeing of the individual coyote, as well as the pack, is connected in many ways to their comfort level (countless studies have revealed the adverse effects of crowding and its influence on density-dependent adverse effects), it only stands to reason that a given species would have evolved some means by which to positively influence their surroundings to make their life situation tenable (even if it means siomply getting up and leaving). And I don't think it's anthropomorphic to think of a coyote as being "smart" enough to recognize a less than optimal situation. (I am always amused at how many people decline to regard the coyote as being intelligent, yet they deny that they are stupid. Hmmm.)
In any event, we've seen and heard of evidence right here amongst the pompous asses of this site that coyotes are able to rudimentarily communicate between individuals (inter-pack). What keeps us from thinking that a similar means of communication doesn't exist in the intra-pack realm? If we could only find out how to say, "FREE BEER!!!" in coyote, we'd really have something.
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I am only one. But still, I am one. I cannot do everything, but still, I can do something; and, because I cannot do everything, I will not refuse to do something that I can do.
Posts: 5438 | From: The gun-lovin', gun-friendly wild, wild west | Registered: Jan 2003
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Rich Higgins
unknown comic
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posted July 18, 2005 06:45 PM
It was about there that your argument fell apart.
Lance, you crack me up.
Since I know it all, permit me to pompously state that the AZFG told me that they know that coyotes will travel as far as 76 miles to the antelope fawning grounds each spring which accounts for the 69% mortality rate among fawns attributed to coyote predation. Since it is doubtful that scent will travel that far they can only surmise that information is being shared through long range vocalizations. They also believe that the nomads that appear at deadpiles and carcasses also learn those locations through the "grapevine". Cadieux stated that when yip-howls are issued from pack to pack to pack he could visualize the ripple effect extending to the ocean.
Rich Higgins
ProStaff Member
Huntmasters Pampass Know It All Team
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Bryan J
Cap and Trade Weenie
Member # 106
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posted July 18, 2005 06:56 PM
I think that it could be possible. I have had many occasions that a coyote threat barked right after my first series that escalated to group howls then distant groups joined in. I usually had a slow day in that area.
However, the past two years I have had 4 occasions when a coyote has threat barked in response to distress sounds that didn’t escalate to group howls. 3 times it was right after the first series and the first time it was much later in the stand. The first time it happened I didn’t know what to think, I didn’t see any other coyotes and had the mindset that every thing the coyotes were doing were in response to what I was doing. The other three experiences kind of changed my mind set. The threat barks were followed by multiple coyotes charging to the call. I am now convinced that there was another coyote that we didn’t see on that first stand. The only conclusion that I can draw is that sometimes the treat barks could be at each other as if to say this rabbit is mine? Then other times it could be at me saying “We know you Bryan, that wood whistle isn’t going to work today!”
Posts: 599 | From: Utah | Registered: Feb 2003
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Doggitter
Knows what it's all about
Member # 489
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posted July 18, 2005 08:18 PM
I'd like to throw a little side step in on this one. Last trip last spring I had a single setup after a couple blanks that brought responses from 3 packs in rapid succession, semi lined up nw to se. I would guesstimate that the nw pack was 1/2 mile away, the middle a touch north of me but west and the south probably 3/4 mile out. Didn't get a single taker on the visual then. Went on my way with an out and back trip, called the same area on the way through again. Called in 2 on consecutive setups there. The "out" leg reads like what is being discussed here but I can't figure why the about face on the return. Course, the uncertainty of it is one reason why I go. :>)
Posts: 273 | From: Oregon rain forest | Registered: Dec 2004
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Krustyklimber
prefers the bunny hugger pronunciation: ky o tee
Member # 72
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posted July 18, 2005 10:53 PM
I thought I'd make it abundantly clear why I BELIEVE what I do.
And Leonard asked the question "Do you believe...?"
He never said "okay everyone but Krusty"...
quote sums up a lot for me.
"If ever the day should come when one may camp in the West, and hear not a note of the coyote's joyous stirring evening song..."
Ya know what, that's EXACTLY the case here. I can camp just about anywhere on this side of the Cascade Mountains, and have spent hundreds and hundreds of nights outdoors, and the song of the coyote is NOT part of the experience.
It's not that there arent ANY coyotes, either.
Sleeping nights on the side of a cliff, gives you a commanding view, and sound is really easy to pick up, the "experience" of being an outdoorsman is not limited to those who call predators.
So, do coyotes howl, to warn others to stay out of their territory?
Why does a coyote need a territory?
What if there ARE NO OTHERS?
Animals don't DO something without a reason, would they still DO it, if the reason goes away?
Krusty
[ July 18, 2005, 11:55 PM: Message edited by: Leonard ]
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Think about how stupid the average person is, then realize that half of them are stupider than that!
Posts: 1912 | From: Deep in the Blue Ridge Mountains of Virginia | Registered: Jan 2003
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted July 18, 2005 11:58 PM
I apologize, Krusty. I edited your post, but didn't have the heart to edit Lance's. Only because it was too damned funny.....
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
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Greenside
seems to know what he is talking about
Member # 10
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posted July 19, 2005 05:29 AM
quote:
Since I know it all, permit me to pompously state that the AZFG told me that they know that coyotes will travel as far as 76 miles to the antelope fawning grounds each spring which accounts for the 69% mortality rate among fawns attributed to coyote predation. Since it is doubtful that scent will travel that far they can only surmise that information is being shared through long range vocalizations.
I wonder if any of those officals considered behavioral adaptation or basic instinct rather than vocalization. What vocalization would salmon or caribou use to start migrating?
I bet the coyote migration has been going on for hundreds of years and I doubt that it's started by a couple of muster calls.
Dennis
[ July 19, 2005, 05:32 AM: Message edited by: Greenside ]
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CougerBait
Knows what it's all about
Member # 149
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posted July 19, 2005 06:33 AM
Krusty,
I find it interesting that you don't hear any coyotes at night in the cascades. Heck I here them by my house atleast once a week. I think that you just don't go camping enough! It isn't impossible to call coyotes here like you lead everbody to believe. ![[Confused]](confused.gif) Granted the sucess ratio isn't like other places. And it is fairly thick here. But you make it sound impossible. Just 2 weekend ago I killed 3. I think that you might just need to set up a little better.
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CougerBait
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Remember to all ways look behind you for the big cats!!!!!
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DAA
Utah/Promoted WESTERN REGIONAL Hunt Director
Member # 11
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posted July 19, 2005 07:57 AM
This reminds me of an anecdote that Wiley has shared several times. About the coyote observed issuing a howl from a carcass, and the other coyotes that showed up later being backtracked in the snow. My memory ain’t for shit, so my version may be slightly off, but the observer tracked the late arriving coyotes and found that they had come from over a mile away, having made a sudden change in direction to head straight for the carcass when the first coyote howled.
My take is that yes, absolutely, one coyote or one group of coyotes can and do put all coyotes within earshot on high alert with certain vocalizations. Result being harder calling in that area.
My hearing ain’t for shit either, so how often and how far a “chain reaction” might occur, I could not begin to say.
- DAA
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"Oh yeah, they're gonna talk to you, and talk to you, and talk to you about individual freedom, but they see a free individual, it's gonna scare 'em." -- George Hanson, Easy Rider, 1969.
Rocky Mountain Varmint Hunter
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Rich Higgins
unknown comic
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posted July 19, 2005 08:01 AM
[QUOTEI wonder if any of those officals considered behavioral adaptation or basic instinct rather than vocalization. What vocalization would salmon or caribou use to start migrating?] [/QUOTE]
Coyotes migrating like salmon and caribou? How about like lemmings? Of course that would take the fun out of calling.
On Fri nite in Idaho two pronghorns were struck and killed by a vehicle. We saw them lying next to the road Sat. AM as we drove into the restricted area. Sunday morning as we were leaving the area to checkout, using the VHF antenna,Mike located an alpha male near the pronhorns. It was remarkable to him because the coyote had to cross two other territories to get there and it was with the prevailing wind, he could not have scented the RK. Logical deduction... longrange vocalizations such as the AZ. coyotes use to alert others to carrion. There were no caribou or salmon in the study area. ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted July 19, 2005 10:06 AM
First of all, thanks Dave. I remember that story. Definitely make you think.
Second quote:
There were no caribou or salmon in the study area.
Do you say this because you didn't see any? just kidding
But, I am of the opinion that coyotes can (somehow) communicate over distances, and I strongly suspect they can relay the message. Maybe not intentionally, maybe they think they are replying to coyote A, but coyote C, over on the other side heard B reply to A, and he replys to B and coyote D, (on the opposite side) now hears the message. Like listening in on a party line. Boy, the youngsters won't understand that comparison, will they?
Good hunting. LB
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 31462 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
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Greenside
seems to know what he is talking about
Member # 10
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posted July 19, 2005 10:28 AM
In the case of Ed recommending moving 5 miles after being busted, I think there is a scenario that can be used.
. A caller walks into a stand and gets busted on the way. The coyote runs over the hill or down the drainage and stops out of sight. The caller sits down and starts playing the cotton tail 101, thinking that he might be able to salvage the stand and still call a coyote. In the mean time the coyote that he just busted starts in with warning barks and warning bark howls, mixing them right in with the cottontail, knowing full well that it’s coming from the same location as the hunter that just busted him.
Since it’s a calm morning the sound is carrying a long distance. A coyote further down the drainage (a mile plus) hears the cottontail distress followed by and mixed in with the warning barks. He comes to the conclusion that since the warning barks and the distress are coming from the same location there must be some sort of danger.
After fifteen or so minutes the hunter decides to give it up so he walks out and then drives a mile or two down the road and sets up again, The problem is that coyote number two is still within earshot and when he starts in with the distress coyote number two realizes that it is the same distress sound that coyote number one was barking at so he starts in with warning barks. Etc.........
Does anyone know how far AZ pronghorns
“Migrate” to the birthing grounds? One or two miles or is it up to 75 miles? Has this occurred for a long time or is it just a recent occurrence? Are the coyotes that go to the birthing grounds all from the same subspecies?
Dennis
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Greenside
seems to know what he is talking about
Member # 10
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posted July 19, 2005 10:44 AM
Here's something else I'm having a hard time figuring out. Am I right in assuming that pronghorns are dropping at the same time as the coyotes would be denning or be on the hole?
Would coyotes move a litter 75 miles for free food? There must be a real concentration of dens it around those birthing grounds.
Dennis
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted July 19, 2005 10:53 AM
Dennis, I think it is quite acceptable to view antelope birthing grounds as similiar to a dead animal dump or even a water hole, in the desert.
They know where it is (whatever the attraction) but that doesn't mean that they are held captive in the immediate vicinity, all day long, or in the case of antelope fawns....all year long. It is quite believeable that they chomp watermelons in the summer, but are never seen in the same fields, all winter long.
They may alreadyknow about this resource, or they may be seasonally reminded by the first arrivals on the scene? Perhaps by long range vocals? Just a theory.
Good hunting. LB
edit: yeah, roughly the same time of the year. I don't think they have dug a den by then, but are probably paired up? No pups to worry about, yet? Not sure?
[ July 19, 2005, 10:57 AM: Message edited by: Leonard ]
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
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Rich Higgins
unknown comic
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posted July 19, 2005 01:07 PM
Dave, I remember Scott's post also. He stated that the trapper back tracked the coyotes 6 miles in the snow to the point where they changed directions and moved toward the howling coyote. I don't doubt at all that a coyote can hear a howl at that distance under the proper conditions.
Dennis, I don't know if the tagged coyote that traveled 76 miles was a breeding adult or a transient. Probably the latter as the coyotes that follow the deadpiles are nomadic rather than territorial breeders.
Your scenario is logical and as good an explanation as any.
However, I think it is possible that the information being transmitted by the warning barks and threat howls can be as general as it can be specific. It is believed that the meaning of information broadcast by howls such as warning, threat or alarm can be changed by varying amplitude, frequency, and emotional content. That could mean that distant coyotes that hear a bark or howl that is broadcast as a threat to an intruder, a demand that the intruder leave, may well ignore the vocalization rather than picking it up and transmitting it along as they may with a bark or howl that is broadcast as a warning or alarm to pack members. How they respond to those vocalizations is probably influenced by the distant coyotes sense of security and it's comfort zone which are probably influenced by the amount of pressure applied to that population.
There you go Taylor. My contribution to the greenhouse effect.
Rich Higgins
Prostaff member
Huntmaster's Pampass Know It All Team
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Jay Nistetter
Legalize Weed, Free the Dixie Chicks
Member # 140
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posted July 19, 2005 01:22 PM
So with all that communication going on, why are the Western coyotes so much Dumber than the Eastern variety? Doesn't their sound travel across the Mississippi?
We are talking about a couple different vocalizations here, that being Yip howls and threat barking. Either one is callable and either one is approachable depending on how far away the coyotes are. Gerry Blair believes that coyotes communicate in a manner that tells neighboring coyotes that their is a banquet to be had and subsequently boundaries are crossed.
I believe that a lot of the Yip Howling going on is an autonomic reaction to others. They jes' cain't hep themselves.
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Understanding the coyote is not as important as knowing where they are.
I usually let the fur prime up before I leave 'em lay.
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