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Author
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Topic: Down wind coyotes
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TA17Rem
Hello, I'm the legendary Tim Anderson, Field Marshall, Southern Minneesota Sector
Member # 794
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posted May 23, 2006 06:44 PM
Years ago i was on a coyote calling trip and i made five stands with no response. On the sixth stand nothing came in so i stood up and took the electric caller and held it over my head and turned it 360 degree's. I waited 15 min. and i spotted a coyote come in down wind, i could see him comeing for about half mile away. The coyote came to with-in 100 yds and i took the shot and got him. I did the same for the rest of the day and was able to get 3 coyotes all-together that day. I have have been doing this for quit some time and my question is does this make me a badd hunter since i'm breaking one of the rules as far as calling goes?
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What if I told you, the left wing and right wing both belong to same bird!
Posts: 5064 | From: S.D. | Registered: Jan 2006
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Rich Higgins
unknown comic
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posted May 23, 2006 07:47 PM
I don't understand. What rule are you breaking?
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Doggitter
Knows what it's all about
Member # 489
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posted May 23, 2006 08:00 PM
At the start of 2004 winter season I began calling downwind. Did a couple upwind as I've done for.. since starting to call in early 80's. I knew something just had to change with all the tracks I was cutting on my 6: Since that change my success has gone WAAAY up. I only call upwind now if the set calls for it. I do pick my sets for a downwind watch but sometimes it doesn't fall that way.
It's not a rule, just that a lot of people have a lot of success upwind. Whatever works best for you is the rule. Loren.
Posts: 273 | From: Oregon rain forest | Registered: Dec 2004
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Andy L
HI, I'M THE NEW MODERATOR OF THE CENTRAL MISSOURI FORUM, PULL MY FINGER!
Member # 642
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posted May 23, 2006 08:42 PM
If you set up into the wind, you only think your calling into the wind. Your always calling downwind, primarily, no matter what you think your doing or how your setting up. That is if there is more than a breeze.
Thats my take on it anyway. I have been calling downwind for a long time now. Might as well be watching the same direction the sound is going.
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Andy
Posts: 2645 | From: Central Missouri | Registered: Apr 2005
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TA17Rem
Hello, I'm the legendary Tim Anderson, Field Marshall, Southern Minneesota Sector
Member # 794
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posted May 23, 2006 08:50 PM
Rich all the callers i talk to i mention calling down wind and its like ooh thats badd, you can't do that and kill coyotes. They well smell youre parts per million scent and you will never get a shot. The areas that i call in are wide open can see a coyote a mile or more with field glasses. I've had some either pick-up my scent when the temps where in the 40's or they seen the sun bounce off the roof of my truck, not sure. But i have had quit a few come in and get shot so i keep doing it. seems like alot of people have a closed mind or they dont understand. ??
Andy L. i agree with that also the calling sound will carry farther down wind.
[ May 23, 2006, 08:52 PM: Message edited by: TA17Rem ]
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What if I told you, the left wing and right wing both belong to same bird!
Posts: 5064 | From: S.D. | Registered: Jan 2006
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Q-Wagoner
FREE TRIAL MEMBERSHIP
Member # 33
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posted May 23, 2006 09:30 PM
The way I look at it is that if a guy knows coyotes and knows how to hunt coyotes and knows how to use structure he can keep 90% of his coyotes up wind of him. If a guy doesn’t have a freaking clue how to do any of the above his best bet would be to call down wind because if they are committed to the call that is where they will eventually end up unless you get them shot before hand.
In my mind, a successful coyote hunter’s mindset should revolve around what he can do to control the variables. If you can learn how to hunt into the wind you will kill more coyotes period. Getting winded is getting busted and on top of that you have just effectively associated your self with distress calls in the process. There is NO way to eliminate getting winded but there are many steps that can be taken to drastically reduce the chances.
Good hunting.
Q,
Posts: 617 | From: Nebraska | Registered: Jan 2003
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Az-Hunter
Hi, I'm Vic WELCOME TO THE U.S. Free baloney sandwiches here
Member # 17
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posted May 23, 2006 10:14 PM
I can remember Ed Sceery making the same claim about the ability to kill more coyotes, except his stance was the exact opposite as Quintons. He maintained you could kill more coyotes calling to the down wind.
Im embarrassed to admit it, shows my novice ass I suppose:) but I worry more about having the sun at my back, than where the wind is blowing. I don't discount its direction as meaningless, but somehow, I end up with the wind quartering or crosswind....as long as that damend sun ain't in my eyes!
Posts: 1627 | From: 5 miles west of Tim | Registered: Jan 2003
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Q-Wagoner
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Member # 33
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posted May 24, 2006 12:01 AM
Eds stance is well documented. I remember Ed and Scott going at it also but I would bet everything I own that Scott has called and killed WAY more coyotes than ED has. The sun to your back and the wind to your face is ideal but impractical. Very seldom can you find a stand that allows that to happen and still have coyotes up wind of you. Almost always you have a cross wind of some kind and the sun is never in the right spot at the right time it seams.
Coyotes circle for one reason and that is to see what the hell is making all that noise. If they find out that it is a person rather than a rabbit the coyote is going to bug out. There are exceptions to every rule but that is as close to a rule as you will find in the coyote-calling world.
Why does Leonard and Rich use mist? Why is there Sent-Loc clothing? Why do they sell odor eliminator deodorants, soaps and laundry detergents? Why do they sell scent blocker spray and cover scents?
It is simple. Hunters realize that once they get scented there success goes down-the-shitter!! If it didn’t have some shred of validity scent control wouldn’t be the million-dollar industry that it is. No one I know deliberately sets up wind of a deer trail and expects to kill the deer before he hits his scent stream. They make a conscious effort to set up down wind if all possible because it is a variable that they can control.
From positioning callers to decoys to even partners, stands are set up to intercept incoming coyotes before they hit your scent cone.
Just like everyone else on this board. I kill coyotes every year that come in from down wind. I loose just as many or more by getting scented and of the times that I do get scented it is usually my own fault. I get lazy and don’t set up the way I should and hope on hope that I can get away with it. When I do “get away with it” I feel lucky and that is it. I don’t feel like I have just unlocked some kind of revolutionary or lost secret in coyote calling. I know better.
Whoever wants to reinvent the wheel the can have at it but my mind is made up.
Good hunting.
Q,
Posts: 617 | From: Nebraska | Registered: Jan 2003
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scruffy
Knows what it's all about
Member # 725
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posted May 24, 2006 07:15 AM
Mine are just the opinions of a piss ant in the coyote calling world, but I'll toss them in the conversation.
I try to setup with the coyotes upwind of me and setup where there is a "funnel" (might be what Q calls "structure"???) that funnels the coyote in the direction of my downwind side but requires him to expose himself long before actually getting into my downwind scent cone. Ideally I like setting up with a stand of timber or CRP to my upwind and a finger of timber or creek or something to my side that leads the coyotes from the upwind side to the crosswind side. With my downwind side a wide open field, pasture, etc the coyote that's at the end of the "funnel" 150 or so yards away must cross into the open to wind me. Depending on the land features I setup facing downwind or I setup facing upwind, but regardless my rifle is on the shooting sticks or prone bipod pointing at the end of the "funnel".
For instance a couple weeks ago I got in two stands. On the first stand I was setup prone on a terrace of a sloping field. I was facing south, the coyotes were to my ESE or WSW (every other direction was open field, ESE and WSW was "thick stuff", timber and crp), the wind was out of the SW so I was looking south quartering into the wind. Behind me was open field. Infront of me was a timbered creek bottom 50 yards wide connecting the WSW and ESE thick areas with a little drainage ditch to my SSW coming out of it that went up to a pond over my right shoulder to the NW. The pond drainage ditch was my "funnel". I was over 200 yards from the timbered creek and the drainage ditch "funnel" that came up out of the creek was 100 yards away to my right at the closes point. I figured a coyote would come from the ESE or WSW and approach using the creek bottom and then turn up and take the drainage ditch funnel to cut the distance from 200 yards to 150 to 100 yards and then break cover to circle downwind. A coyote came from the WSW, took the creek to get to the drainage ditch, came up the drainage ditch, broke cover at 150 yards to start to circle to get to my downwind side, I stopped the continuous playing fawn distress speaker that was 50' to my west in the tall grass of the terrace, the coyote turned and approached it straight on for 25 yards and stopped 125 yards out and turned and looked exactly like the HM coyote pic. The 55grain PSP from the 22-250 did the job quite nicely.
On the next stand on a different farm I couldn't setup with the coyotes upwind of me, and my only choice was to call with the wind or not call at all. I setup below a pond dam to get out of the wind as much as I could with the speaker 50' to my left this time in the grassy pond drainage ditch. The coyotes were to my NW and N and the wind was from the S/SE and now changing a bit in direction and speed, 0 to 15mph and very variable... 4 minutes into the fawn distress a coyote appeared 275 yards out running for the drainage ditch (funnel) to approach the call with wide open black dirt fields on both sides of the drainage ditch. At 200 yards he checked up, poked around, ran towards the call a few steps, then backed away, then closer, but stayed around 200 yards give or take 10 yards for over a minute moving back and forth. Then the coyote ran away... Because of the tall grass in the drainage ditch and the angle all I had was a headshot for that minute of time. I could have tried, and if I was prone on this stand I might have tried, but sitting with the rifle on sticks I decided to see if he'd come closer and then when he decided to leave I couldn't stop him so he didn't get any lead flung at him. I changed to canine pups to either call him back in or call another in. 7 minutes into that sound either the coyote returned or another one came in. This one ran the same track as the first, ran to the end of the drainage ditch, started up the ditch, then at 250 yards broke out of the ditch and stopped and stood broadside in the open field. I steadied the crossairs and debated pulling the trigger. From me to the coyote was 250 yards of mirage heat waves off the black field with the sun in the cloudless sky beating down. I quickly tried to think where to aim and decided to aim dead on and hope the mirage didn't make me shoot over his back. Well, the bullet went right over his back, the coyote dropped flat on the ground, spun 180 degrees, and took off like he was shot out of a cannon running with his belly not 2" off the ground. Freaking heat waves....
After that I had to start the honey do list... Days like that I need to loose the honey do list! ![[Frown]](frown.gif)
Anyway, moral to the story? I called and possibly could have/should have killed both coyotes that came from my downwind side. They both came in fast and at 200 to 250 yards noted that something wasn't right and that ended their enthusiasm. Consequently both offered much longer shots than what I typically get. The first coyote on the first stand was typical text book for me and resulted in fur in the back of the truck. The big difference between the first and second stands was the wind. Both stands called coyotes, but the first stand using the wind to my advantage resulted in a relatively easy kill.
So in my humble piss ant opinion you don't break any "rules" when you call using the wind, you just give the coyote an advantage and that advantage will in most cases make it more difficult to kill him. I call with the wind when I have no other choice knowing I'm making it harder on myself, but if I have no other choice it's better than nothing. For example when the wind is blowing 15+mph I'll call with the wind, try to sit protected from the wind, and have had good success, even on days with the winds blowing upwards of 20mph.
So calling with the wind is more of a last resort for me than my prefered setup, but to each their own.
later,
scruffy
[ May 24, 2006, 08:36 AM: Message edited by: scruffy ]
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Git R Done
Posts: 361 | From: south central Iowa | Registered: Nov 2005
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Greenside
seems to know what he is talking about
Member # 10
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posted May 24, 2006 07:58 AM
Andy
quote:
Might as well be watching the same direction the sound is going.
You might have lost me on that one.
Dennis
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Rich Higgins
unknown comic
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posted May 24, 2006 08:06 AM
Most callers don't have an accurate handle on "downwind". Air behaves much the same as water. Moving air is redirected and sprayed by terrain and obstructions just as water is. Visualize river rapids. The water is made turbulent by velocity, twists and turns and erupts into a spray when colliding with rocks and other barriers, just as the air does. Water rises when heated, sinks as it cools. Just as the air does. Drop dye(Scent) into a still pond(air)and it will not spread out in a "Cone". It spreads in all directions. Drop dye into a flowing river and it will follow the eddies and currents, often in a narrow ribbon rather than spread out in a cone.
A coyote may stand where you think is straight "downwind" from you but may be feet away from your scent ribbon. A coyote on the otherside of a ridge line may stand under the clear air turbulance that the ridge created and the scent is rolling and cascading above his position, the back drafts and eddies pulling clean air into the vortex from the sides. This "scent cone" that everyone apparently believes exists at all times is simply one of many conditions that occur with different atmospheric conditions in different terrains. My point is that coyotes may not be able to detect you from where you believe downwind is. And again they may detect you from a considerable distance under certain conditions.
Ed Sceery calls toward the downwind from an elevated position. Turbulance from the ridge behind him combined with convectives from warming air may disipate his scent and make him undetectable.
Scott locates his coyotes and then approaches their position from downwind. In that wide open country a coyote that circles downwind had better pack a lunch, he is going to have to travel a very long distance. Usually they just take the direct route.
In thick cover with many washes or hollows that the coyotes can be in, and we can not be certain of it's position or approach direction, that is they can pop up on any point on the compass, we make certain that our downwind side is as open as possible. Although they can and often will approach from any direction, they will almost always wind up downwind if permitted to do so.
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UTcaller
NEVADA NIGHT FIGHTER
Member # 8
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posted May 24, 2006 08:54 AM
Over the years Scott and I have had this argument(wind direction) quite a few times.Although quite interesting and at times enjoyable,for the most part we both agreed to disagree.LOL ![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif) Most of the stands I make are with the wind at my back.Like Vic Said,Ed Sceery is the one that advocated this theory.It has worked for me and I will continue to do so.I know Scott is a VERY accomplished coyote caller and killer and I have nothing but respect for him,but to say that Scott has killed WAY more coyotes than Ed,I really doubt it.But hey, everyones entitled to an OPINION.LOL FWIW Good Hunting Chad
[ May 24, 2006, 08:56 AM: Message edited by: UTcaller ]
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scruffy
Knows what it's all about
Member # 725
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posted May 24, 2006 09:00 AM
quote:
Drop dye into a flowing river and it will follow the eddies and currents, often in a narrow ribbon rather than spread out in a cone.
I've never dropped dye into a river, but I've burnt many a brush pile, old moldy hay stomped into the ground by cows, camp fires, etc and more often than not the smoke blows downwind into a cone shape.
For instance last week when the @#$% farmer north of me started the remnants of 4 hay bale feeding spots on fire north of me 150 yards and the smoke coned out as it blew over my place. I was all ready to go up and have a talk with him the next day (I wasn't in the mood to "talk" the day before...) and he had relit the bales, this time blowing right for his house... I decided there wasn't a point to talking to him and I figure he wouldn't understand... But the smoke made a nice cone towards his house as well.
And I'd say almost every time I've seen smoke from fires I've set they've made a cone, some wider than others, but a cone none the less. So while I'm sure the "ribbon" formation can occur, in my experience with smoke anyway, I believe the cone happens much more often.
Sorry to disagree.
later,
scruffy
[ May 24, 2006, 09:04 AM: Message edited by: scruffy ]
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Git R Done
Posts: 361 | From: south central Iowa | Registered: Nov 2005
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Rich Higgins
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posted May 24, 2006 09:21 AM
I said
" This "scent cone" that everyone apparently believes exists at all times is simply one of many conditions that occur with different atmospheric conditions in different terrains."
If you re-read and comprehend that statement you will become aware that the conditions and terrain "IN THAT AREA AT THAT GIVEN TIME" resulted in a cone of differing widths rather than a ribbon or a cascading roll.
The undergrowth in the forests in the Ozarks is set afire every fall to kill the ticks and chiggars. Cones are rare in the hollows and timber. Very rare in canyons and broken terrain.
Nothing is never or always.
No need to apologize for disagreeing and stating your opinion. It is as valid as anyone elses, until proven wrong.
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Andy L
HI, I'M THE NEW MODERATOR OF THE CENTRAL MISSOURI FORUM, PULL MY FINGER!
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posted May 24, 2006 09:51 AM
IMHO, your terrain makes all the difference, much as Rich just said.
I know calling the big woods south of my house and the open "prarie" type ground is very different and the desert of SE AZ is different yet.
I do the biggest part of my calling in the "prarie" type ground. As said above by someone, I also use funnels. Put my call in a fencerow or ditch to let the sound blow where I want it and get off to the side so my scent is going into a field where I can see. It does result in alot of broadside shots in the funnel.
The only way I have found to do this in AZ was to hunt the higher country and use elevation in much the same way.
Seems like we did however succeed in gettin a conversation going... ![[Wink]](wink.gif)
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Andy
Posts: 2645 | From: Central Missouri | Registered: Apr 2005
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scruffy
Knows what it's all about
Member # 725
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posted May 24, 2006 10:04 AM
quote:
If you re-read and comprehend that statement you will become aware that the conditions and terrain "IN THAT AREA AT THAT GIVEN TIME" resulted in a cone of differing widths rather than a ribbon or a cascading roll.
LOL ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif) , I reread every one of your posts multiple times and rest assured if I post my opinion that disagrees with yours that I've reread it many many times and comprehend it. ![[Cool]](cool.gif)
And I've reread the ozark sentence multiple times and I'll admit I've yet to comprehend how it relates. I've never seen that fire, but I assume it has to be very very large? Kind of like a grass fire up here where it consumes everything and makes it own wind? Maybe it's different, but I don't comprehend how it relates. I don't think I stink that bad to the point I make my own wind, LOL.
Not a big deal, I think I got the rest of your post. And I think we agree more than we disagree on this subject. Actually I'm not sure where we disagree anymore. ![[Confused]](confused.gif)
later,
scruffy
[ May 24, 2006, 10:11 AM: Message edited by: scruffy ]
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Git R Done
Posts: 361 | From: south central Iowa | Registered: Nov 2005
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scruffy
Knows what it's all about
Member # 725
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posted May 24, 2006 10:08 AM
quote:
Seems like we did however succeed in gettin a conversation going...
I believe you right!
later,
scruffy
[ May 24, 2006, 10:09 AM: Message edited by: scruffy ]
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Git R Done
Posts: 361 | From: south central Iowa | Registered: Nov 2005
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted May 24, 2006 10:22 AM
As one of my hero's once said, None of this is graven in stone".
But, we have to understand the conditions that exist in various places. I still remember the uncallable Kansas coyotes, thanks to the dinks that were educating a lot more coyotes than they were killing.
In the cover that I am used to, you are making a big mistake to call and watch upwind. I can guess, but am never certain for which direction a coyote will show up. But, I sure as hell know where he will wind up, if I am blocked from seeing his approach.
This all changes when you are calling more open areas.
For me, wind direction is only one of several factors in setting up a stand. Hell, sometimes it's dead calm, now what is your solution, if that's the only thing you pay attention to? Often enough, wind direction changes three times on a stand. When that happens, I believe the coyotes realize this and generally make a direct approach while giving up on the effort to scent, while depending more on visuals.
This subject is always good for a stimulation discussion and although some people never change their opinion, it sure is food for thought....and has benefit for even the champions among us.
Good hunting. LB
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
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Rich Higgins
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posted May 24, 2006 11:16 AM
Scruffy, I re-read my own statement that you quoted and it reads in print a little different than it read in my head. I tend to "read over" long posts and sometimes my comprehension suffers a little. I posted the pertinent statement for your benefit if that was what had happened. I didn't mean to sound like a pompous twit.
The burns in the Ozarks just remove the undergrowth. They do not burn the trees. The burns are not roaring infernos, mostly they are just smoldering ,glowing, creeping burns. The smoke sometimes hangs over the hollows and sometimes plumes straight up. (Warm air rising) Cones? Seldom.
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Andy L
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posted May 24, 2006 12:38 PM
There arent as many burns, around here anyway, as there used to be. Dont know why. Only bad things I have seen are more law suites from "outsiders" that have bought up alot of land around here and dont understand the concept. They get mad when fire goes over a fence.
My grandpa used to burn off all his land every year or two. Sure helped with underbrush, ticks, chiggers and helped grass grow. Once in a while you get the wind going and one would get out of control but not often. Actually, we used to cut wide fire lanes as soon as the property was bought. Also made it much easier to drive around and build the boundry fence than to carry that crap up and down hills in the woods.
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Andy
Posts: 2645 | From: Central Missouri | Registered: Apr 2005
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scruffy
Knows what it's all about
Member # 725
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posted May 24, 2006 01:12 PM
Rich, thanks for the clarification on the fire, it's alot different than I was invisioning. And as far a sounding like a pampass twit, it's part of the communication medium, the net... You can take a lot of statements made on the 'net' as pampass even though they weren't meant to be.
Like was Leonards comment "and has benefit for even the champions among us." meant as pompass? It could be taken as such, especially after the "dinks" comment earlier in the post. But considering the source I doubt that's how Leonard meant it. He's a good guy. (There's a reason why I use sounds like fawn distress, housecat, etc this time of year, LOL, dinks..... I think alot of iowa coyotes also run from rabbit distress sounds as well after Dec/Jan passes.)
In the same way I didn't take offence to your "pampass twit" sounding reply Rich, which is why I started off my reply with "LOL ". I knew you probably didn't mean it to sound that way.
And actually, I still don't know why I thought we disagreed... even after reading my posts... LOL.
A couple braincells must have bumped together wrong when I was typing...
later,
scruffy
[ May 24, 2006, 01:16 PM: Message edited by: scruffy ]
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Git R Done
Posts: 361 | From: south central Iowa | Registered: Nov 2005
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted May 24, 2006 01:32 PM
Well, if it helps, I did not mean to offend anyone.
You know, a cone is a cone, but I can tell you that sometimes a "cone" is shaped like a wedge of pie and sometimes it's shape is more like a toothpick. I spray at night and it's interesting to see how the mist corkscrews downwind, doesn't quite act like smoke rising from a chimney. I more or less figure that my human scent follows the same path, but perhaps more dilute and (of course) less weight, so it may drift a bit higher and eddy wider? Who knows, you can't see it? Be it compact or spreading out, it is my working theory that the cone is not as cross purpose with the wind direction as some people think it is. In other words, if it is heading downwind, how does it veer off at an angle to the direction of the wind? It would seem to me that there is a mechanism that herds the scent in a column that may get ever so slightly wider, the further away it gets? From the coyotes that I have observed, while misting; they seem to stand in the exact middle of the cone, not outside. It's observable, to anyone that uses mist. They don't stop "approximately" downwind, they seem to stop "directly" downwind.
Good hunting. LB
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
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Andy L
HI, I'M THE NEW MODERATOR OF THE CENTRAL MISSOURI FORUM, PULL MY FINGER!
Member # 642
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posted May 24, 2006 02:03 PM
Leonard and Rich, do you guys notice any difference in reaction to down wind coyotes and wind speed? Like, do they seem to react any different if the winds blowing 5mph as opposed to 15mph?
Just curious. You guys have observed many more than I. It seems to me that scent isnt as big of a factor with a stronger wind..... But what do I know.
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Andy
Posts: 2645 | From: Central Missouri | Registered: Apr 2005
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted May 24, 2006 02:19 PM
Yes, the windier it is, the further they wind up downwind. It's as if they know that a strong wind might blow scent right over their head, keeping it up longer, so they seem to get way out there, the circle isn't a circle, it's shaped like a fish hook...sorta? You never know what they are going to do, but generally speaking, a higher wind velocity means the further away a coyote will be when he stops. Example, 25-30 MPH might mean 300/500 yards? Don't quote me on that, I'm just talking casual observations. Of course, they tend to stay put longer if they "fish hook" 300 yards downwind. You still have a shot, if you are misting and you are ready for the stop. Of course age and the status of the animal you are dealing with, would play a part in this situation, as well.
Good hunting. LB
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 31462 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
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Rich Higgins
unknown comic
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posted May 24, 2006 03:00 PM
Interesting question. Andy. But to be honest it really doesn't concern me and I haven't given it any thought. We select our stands to allow the coyotes to approach without leaving their security zones and expose themselves until they are upon us. We seldom see the approach. They are just suddenly there. We get many more into a stand that way than any other I have tried. It really doesn't matter much to unpressured coyotes but later in the season or in areas of heavy pressure it makes a huge difference. In Mo. for example, coyotes would much rather approach the stand in the heavy cover of the hollows than run across an open pasture. We set up so that they can do so. To gain our downwind, however, they have to expose themselves. Misting pays for itself if they pop up and we don't pick them up immediately. When contest calling with partners we string the two shooters in a line downwind from the caller, on ladders in really thick stuff, and the downwind shooters usually take the older coyotes.
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