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Author
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Topic: MANGE!!!!!!
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Rich
2,000th post PAKMAN
Member # 112
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posted September 22, 2008 06:59 AM
Now that we have Wiley E posting again, and RedRabbit talking a bit, I have decided to bring up this question. The coyote population has been killed off really bad in my part of western Iowa. I believe it is due to the mange, and the mange mites surviving in the dens all winter. The bad population drop actually took place at least ten years ago. I had expected the voids would soon be filled by new coyotes, but it hasn't happened. It has become clear that I must travel into new area's in search of coyotes. I may have to buy a south dakota or nebraska hunting license yet. What's up with that?
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If you call the coyotes in close, you won't NEED a high dollar range finder.
Posts: 2854 | From: Iowa | Registered: Feb 2003
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rainshadow1
Knows what it's all about
Member # 899
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posted September 22, 2008 09:43 AM
Rich, just a tidbit to add before it gets rolling. I've learned, from raising English Bulldogs (who are susceptable to lots of health issues), that sarcoptic mange is usually present on all canines. It's the weak and debilitated that are adversely effected. Basically, mange is there almost all the time, but it takes lowered immunity in some form to allow a mange outbreak to get bad enough to cause hair loss. Then it's a snowball effect from there, since the hair loss causes heat loss, which causes loss of energy, which causes more illness.... etc.
The one exception to that was puppies. Healthy puppies are vulnerable, since their immunity is lower for a few months. Which could snowball into their adulthood I suppose.
I don't know if that holds true with wild dogs, but that's what I was told about domestic dogs, and it was consistent with what I've researched.
Mange is always there, but it takes lowered immunity to make it outbreak and do damage.
Do you think it's the same in the wild?
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- - Steve
RainShadow Game Calls & Custom Knives
Cougar E-Sound Library, Hand Calls, & Call-In Story Library.
www.rain-shadow.com
Posts: 152 | From: NW Washington | Registered: Jul 2006
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Rich
2,000th post PAKMAN
Member # 112
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posted September 22, 2008 10:35 AM
rainshadow1,
I'm pretty sure that a mange mite is a mange mite, whether it is on a domestic dog, a coyote or any other canine. I think the mites are surviving our winters by staying deep in the dens, and infesting the newborn coyote pups. The rising red fox population here would seem to add weight to my belief. The strange thing to me is that new coyotes have not yet filled in the void. Since the Missouri river borders my area to the west, most of the migrating coyotes would likely come from my north, south or east. Maybe this mange outbreak extends a long way north & south of me.
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If you call the coyotes in close, you won't NEED a high dollar range finder.
Posts: 2854 | From: Iowa | Registered: Feb 2003
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted September 22, 2008 12:21 PM
Rich, they cross the bridge....from the west. ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
How common is reusing dens?
Good hunting. LB
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 31449 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
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Okanagan
Budding Spin Doctor
Member # 870
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posted September 22, 2008 02:36 PM
Don't know how common it is but I know of two dens that were reused. One was used to raise pups three consecutive years, the other two that I know of.
Interesting topic.
Posts: 269 | From: 49th Parrallel | Registered: Jun 2006
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CrossJ
SECOND PLACE: PAUL RYAN Look-a-like contest
Member # 884
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posted September 22, 2008 05:03 PM
quote:
...that sarcoptic mange is usually present on all canines. It's the weak and debilitated that are adversely effected. Basically, mange is there almost all the time, but it takes lowered immunity in some form to allow a mange outbreak to get bad enough to cause hair loss.
Rainshadow, You are talking about 'red' mange, also known as demodectic mange. Demodectic mites are present in all canines, the pick them up from their mother at birth.It is believed the outbreak is caused by an allergic reaction that some have due to a genetic flaw. It is hereditary, but not generally considered contagious. It can be brought on by stress such as heat or welping.
Sarcoptic mange is a different parasite. It is contagious within species,and to a certain degree across species. Sarcoptic mange is what is seen in coyote populations.
Maintain
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A friend will help you move. A good friend will help you move a body.
Posts: 1025 | From: on a water tower | Registered: Jul 2006
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Rich
2,000th post PAKMAN
Member # 112
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posted September 22, 2008 05:12 PM
Leonard,
I believe that in my area it is fairly common for coyotes to use the same dens for several years in a row. They find areas that are furthest from roads and houses. Dens are usually near ridge tops, and often on south facing slopes. I have never seen a coyote crossing sign at bridge approaches, but they probably do cross em now and then. ![[Wink]](wink.gif)
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If you call the coyotes in close, you won't NEED a high dollar range finder.
Posts: 2854 | From: Iowa | Registered: Feb 2003
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JoeF
resides "back east"
Member # 228
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posted September 22, 2008 06:48 PM
Timely topic, Rich. I saw the mangiest coyote of my life scavenging something off the road-side last Friday. 7:45 AM, pretty unusual to see a coyote in this part of the country at that time of the day, this time of year, in that spot. Far western IL, pretty much where the Ia. and Mo. state lines meet. That poor old boy was hurting and really did not want to retreat back in to the weeds as I drove by. He was as big a coyote as is ever grown around here but that little mite will drag him down as the weather gets cold.
Mange hammered the Mo. coyotes in my favorite area that would be about straight south of there,as a crow flies, some 10 years ago. I can return to the farm I grew up on and kill foxes easier than coyotes now. It has not been that way since the early seventies.
Posts: 646 | From: Midwest | Registered: Aug 2003
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rainshadow1
Knows what it's all about
Member # 899
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posted September 22, 2008 06:56 PM
CrossJ, That makes more sense. We've dealt with both, sarcoptic, and demodectic, and in pups it looks the same. I was told (from at least 1 vet) that they were both common, floating around, but not always manifested with symptoms, like hair loss. It would make more sense that scabies are more of a virus-like parasite.
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- - Steve
RainShadow Game Calls & Custom Knives
Cougar E-Sound Library, Hand Calls, & Call-In Story Library.
www.rain-shadow.com
Posts: 152 | From: NW Washington | Registered: Jul 2006
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Kelly Jackson
SECOND PLACE/GARTH BROOKS LOOK-A-LIKE CONTEST
Member # 977
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posted September 22, 2008 07:31 PM
Anybody ever killed a bobcat with mange?
I havn't.
Posts: 997 | From: Comanche OK | Registered: Oct 2006
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted September 22, 2008 07:34 PM
Nope.
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 31449 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
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Cdog911
"There are some ideas so absurd only an intellectual could believe them."--George Orwell.
Member # 7
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posted September 23, 2008 05:09 AM
Killed plenty of coons with it, but in small isolated spots often around the hindlegs, but never a 'cat.
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I am only one. But still, I am one. I cannot do everything, but still, I can do something; and, because I cannot do everything, I will not refuse to do something that I can do.
Posts: 5438 | From: The gun-lovin', gun-friendly wild, wild west | Registered: Jan 2003
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Cdog911
"There are some ideas so absurd only an intellectual could believe them."--George Orwell.
Member # 7
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posted September 23, 2008 05:10 AM
Well, crap. Had the day off to pack up stuff for the big move to MacNeal. Now, I see I'm staying. Friggin' management! ![[Mad]](mad.gif)
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I am only one. But still, I am one. I cannot do everything, but still, I can do something; and, because I cannot do everything, I will not refuse to do something that I can do.
Posts: 5438 | From: The gun-lovin', gun-friendly wild, wild west | Registered: Jan 2003
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Rich
2,000th post PAKMAN
Member # 112
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posted September 23, 2008 05:42 AM
"Killed plenty of coons with it, but in small isolated spots often around the hindlegs, but never a 'cat."
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Mange on a Coon? I'm gonna Google that one.
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If you call the coyotes in close, you won't NEED a high dollar range finder.
Posts: 2854 | From: Iowa | Registered: Feb 2003
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Kokopelli
SENIOR DISCOUNT & Dispenser of Sage Advice
Member # 633
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posted September 23, 2008 07:52 AM
I asked my wife (She-who-must-be-obeyed) if she had ever ran into mange on a feline the years that she worked as an animal groomer. "A couple of dogs but never on a cat." Mayhap the little micro beasties don't like cats.
This would be a good place to point out that surgical gloves (hand condoms) can be bought at most drug stores in boxes of 100, pretty cheaply. Practice safe skinning!!!
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And lo, the Light of the Trump shown upon the Darkness and the Darkness could not comprehend it.
Posts: 7576 | From: Under a wandering star | Registered: Apr 2005
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rainshadow1
Knows what it's all about
Member # 899
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posted September 23, 2008 09:30 AM
Another thing they told me... don't trust anything for sure now, but... Cats can't get it. They may have their own brand, but those mites don't like cats and won't burrow on them. They will burrow on humans, but they won't reproduce and won't survive on humans. They need canines.
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- - Steve
RainShadow Game Calls & Custom Knives
Cougar E-Sound Library, Hand Calls, & Call-In Story Library.
www.rain-shadow.com
Posts: 152 | From: NW Washington | Registered: Jul 2006
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Rich
2,000th post PAKMAN
Member # 112
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posted September 23, 2008 11:45 AM
On the link I found at Google, it states that raccoons do get mange. I have never seen it, but most of the coons that I have met, use hollow trees for their dens. The mange mite would likely freeze to death in our hollow trees, which explains why we don't see much mange in midwestern coons.
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If you call the coyotes in close, you won't NEED a high dollar range finder.
Posts: 2854 | From: Iowa | Registered: Feb 2003
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coyote whacker
Knows what it's all about
Member # 639
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posted September 23, 2008 01:00 PM
There is much debate on how long scarpotic mange mites can live without a host, Most would find it hard to believe they could live for 60-90 days in a hole no matter how deep because they would dry out and die. Ricj better stay in the eastern 1/3rd of SD as the mange is pretty bad as you go west in SD.
Here is some information on these mites for what it is worth:
http://instruction.cvhs.okstate.edu/kocan/vpar5333/533ot3aa.htm
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This is done on my time and my dime. My views may differ from those of others!
Posts: 376 | From: USA | Registered: Apr 2005
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Rich
2,000th post PAKMAN
Member # 112
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posted September 23, 2008 02:53 PM
"Ricj better stay in the eastern 1/3rd of SD as the mange is pretty bad as you go west in SD."
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Coyote Whacker,
That sounds like a good idea for me. Eastern south dakota is closer to me than western. Thanks for the tip. ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
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If you call the coyotes in close, you won't NEED a high dollar range finder.
Posts: 2854 | From: Iowa | Registered: Feb 2003
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Tactical.20
PAKMAN
Member # 3148
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posted September 23, 2008 10:23 PM
I have always thought that the mite was in the den and the new ones got it too. It always seemed, since the mange wiped our fox out 16 or more years ago, that you would see new fox, then they are gone or sick. Now all we mainly have is the coyote. I hear by Spirit Lake they have mange too.
Posts: 1 | From: nw Iowa | Registered: Sep 2008
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted September 23, 2008 11:32 PM
Welcome to The New Huntmasters, Tactical.20. Glad to have you on board. Especially with all the problems getting logged on!
I would urge members to remember their exact log in name, and screen name and especially; THEIR MEMBER NUMBER, (that's #1) But, the log in name is second most important, which he never gave to me, and then (apparently) he lost his computer generated welcome message with the password and member number.
Put it this way, it took a bit of luck, and a week to locate Tactical.20's registration. I need the log in name (exactly as entered) or the member #. I do not like to scroll through the entire membership looking for a screen name.
Tac20's email address didn't pop up the first couple of times, for some reason? But that's another thing, when you guys have a problem, tell me your old email address, if you have changed it. Your new one is useless.
He didn't do anything wrong, besides lose his welcome email, this is just general information for the rest of you that might come in handy, some day.
Okay, end of rant. LB
PS 1st)log in name, (not screen name) 2nd)member# for me to locate your records.
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 31449 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
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6mm284
Knows what it's all about
Member # 1129
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posted September 24, 2008 07:40 AM
Dealt with the same mange for years in livestock operation. Mange mites do not go away unless treated or the host must die. Moist environments(dens) can support the survival for quite some time without a host.. The sarcoptic mange mite is a suppressant to the immune system and makes the host susceptible to illness that would otherwise would not be.Environment has an effect on occurrence as does the number of infected animals. It is passed by contact and therefore even if an animal is treated and cleaned up , he can be reinfected by another untreated animal. We treated swine for it regularly and was just part of the normal routine.. Demodectic mange is normal to canines and is usually kept in check by a healthy immune system. If the immune systems is weakened by other conditions then the demodetic may express itself more.I am not sure that coyotes would always have carried a certain amount of sarcoptic mange without becoming more heavily infested.My experience was that if you noticed sarco mange it just continued to get worse until you did something about it. I think years ago when we saw light mange on coyotes it was the demodetic type that resides close to oil glands behing the ears.As I started to notice sarco mange in coyotes some years back I feared it would eventually have a big impact on them .It sure appears it has. Normally by this time of year, I have them howling in every direction from my house,,, this year I have not heard one.Maybe I should start treating my local coyotes if there are any left.
Posts: 198 | From: N46 06 E91 11 | Registered: Feb 2007
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Randy Roede
"It's Roede, like in Yotie
Member # 1273
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posted September 24, 2008 08:34 AM
Rich, the SE part of SD is full of mange also, I know a few guys callin there and visited with a bunch more, along with our guys there and they all say the same, rare to get a good one. If you get to Pierre I think Hunsley and I could find a couple of hairy ones for you to toot to. Won't be many but a couple for sure. I got a spot on my garage wall already picked out for the hero pic. Seriously!!
What I am wondering is if the parvo, distemper isn't taking more than we think. Once those pups are off milk the parvo wipes out the litter. I have seen a few dens with snot nosed, diahrea, some dead, some near dead pups. Also early on adults and pups answering and then only adults. Never hearing pups there again?? This would explain the low populations year after year with the parvo in the soil like in domestic dogs. Once you get it in your kennels as the vet told me it is there forever and has to be dealt with occordingly forever!!
Got two pups from a rancher and had them about 3 days, mind you they had zero puppy shots etc. ranch dogs. They came down with parvo, one died the other cost me over $300 at the vet. I had all the vaccines just hadn't got around to it. 3 days!! They had just been weened and were fine but he told me either they brought it with them and I now had it in my kennels or I had it in my soil first. Now every year all the dogs get vacinated every year and havn't had a problem.
I think it is a combination of that that is keeping the populations so low for so long.
I always think we are coming out of it from what I see in the summer to this time of year. Knock on wood but I have only seen one magey coyote on pups this summer, but I have also had no adults show on pups and from past experience that can be mangey coyotes that won't engage the dogs. We'll see.
One of the misconceptions is a true definition of true scarpotic mange in the field. Full blown east to spot the early stages not so, scaly skin on ears fronts of legs with chunks of hair missing out what would be a beautiful pelt, and of course the smell, AHHH I can smell it now. What a stench!!!
The Turner ranch here in the winter of 2002 did some blood sampling on coyotes, 100 or more, that were taken by a private plane on the ranch, swift fox reintroduction, and most of the coyotes that were sampled at that time, before the mange outbreak were as their biologist stated were HOT!! with Distemper, and Parvo. Geordie this stuff may make sense to you, some counts in the blood were sky high??? There are now parts of that ranch that hold virtually no coyotes that in 2002 had coyotes everywhere.
Is it possible that with our severe drought and limited water sources that coyotes are comng in contact more when forced to use the same sources? Not as much so now with the rain this year.
Our decoy dogs have contact with some mangey coyotes, pups, den sites etc. I have never had them contract it.
I've seen coons, skunks, badgers, fox and coyotes with mange. No cats though.
Theres a piece to this puzzle that is missing.
Well got to head to that NW corner of IA. Spencer, Tac 20 you know the country, hog building heaven, step daughters wedding this weekend. You need that stuff the cororner sp? puts under his nose when workin on a dead guy LOL!!! Aqua Velva I think it is mixed with vaseline!! ![[Eek!]](eek.gif)
My two cents worth.
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The only person dumber than the village idiot is the person who argues with him!
Posts: 669 | From: Pierre SD | Registered: Mar 2007
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Rich
2,000th post PAKMAN
Member # 112
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posted September 24, 2008 11:10 AM
Randy Roede,
Thanks for the invitation sir, I appreciate that very much. I do have an open invitation to hunt with Jerry Hunsley, so maybe I will see you next month. My knees have been dealing me fits ever since I worked up on the ladder a month or so ago while repairing hail holes in my vinyl siding. Doctor thinks it is arthritis, and I am going to physical therapy twice a week. If my knees don't heal up, I will need to hunt pretty close to the truck. In other words I won't be calling with Huber. That guy would rather walk than drive his truck ya know.
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If you call the coyotes in close, you won't NEED a high dollar range finder.
Posts: 2854 | From: Iowa | Registered: Feb 2003
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted September 24, 2008 11:27 AM
Huber must have taken it easy on me, Rich? Yeah, he still likes to walk a good ways from the truck, but I (somehow) managed to keep up?
Good hunting. LB
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 31449 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
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