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Author
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Topic: King of the coyote
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Krustyklimber
prefers the bunny hugger pronunciation: ky o tee
Member # 72
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posted July 04, 2004 10:50 AM
Here we are back to wolf DNA.... man, we must be gutshot and spinning in circles!?!
My DOG has many of the same chain sequences as a wolf... hell, being a mammal I even have some of the same genes as a wolf... I was born live, and reared on milk....
Doesn't mean I am a wolf, or that I have been inbred with one. ![[Razz]](tongue.gif) (yeah, I know, each of you probably just made up yer own "inbred Krusty joke"... it's cool)
I am also not part whale, not part frog, and not part bird... but I bet I have some matching gene sequences with some of these other animals too.
Until the canine genome is mapped out on a level near or higher than the human genome has, we will never know what genes the coyote carries that give it "wolf-like" qualities, and even then we may never know how long the coyote has had them in it's genome.
Did it get it from it's wolf daddy, or it's coyote ancestor from 1000 generations back, and it had layed dorment only to come out as a genetic "mutation", or be confused as hybridization.
It's like music... there are only so many notes, and only so many that "work together", so all songs have some matching chains of notes (scales).
With DNA there are ONLY FOUR NOTES and a "song" could be thousands of notes long (or longer)... you are going to have a lot more "songs that sound similar" than if you had some 60 aubible musical notes and hundreds more outside the range of our hearing.
So far, to me, there is no definitive proof that eastern coyotes have any more wolf in them then western ones do, my dog does, or I do.
Krusty 
P.S. Byron, your link does not take me to any article...
[ July 04, 2004, 11:01 AM: Message edited by: Krustyklimber ]
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Think about how stupid the average person is, then realize that half of them are stupider than that!
Posts: 1912 | From: Deep in the Blue Ridge Mountains of Virginia | Registered: Jan 2003
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Q-Wagoner
FREE TRIAL MEMBERSHIP
Member # 33
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posted July 04, 2004 11:09 AM
Krusty I had no idea that your ancestors came from Arkansas. With a family tree that looks like a telephone pole I can now see why you are such a Bush bashing liberal. Oh well ignorance is not a crime so you are free to go.
Here is a link you can check out on the subject if you would like.
http://www.wildlifetech.com/pages/necoyote.htm
Good hunting.
Q,
Posts: 617 | From: Nebraska | Registered: Jan 2003
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Byron South
Knows what it's all about
Member # 213
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posted July 04, 2004 12:19 PM
Interesting reading Q, Thanks. I wonder what it would cost to ship a 50# dead coyote via UPS. If anybody wants one, just pay the shipping and you can be the first on your block to have one.
I'm sure they will ship it. I once sent some fresh elk droppings from Colorado to a buddy. He couldn't/wouldn't take off work to go, so we over nighted him a package to his work to rub it in. Boy did he like that ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif) .
Byron
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"Coming to the Call" predator hunting videos. Volumes I, II, III and IV. Order two or more and pay no S&H www.comingtothecall.com
Posts: 313 | From: Texas | Registered: Jun 2003
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Az-Hunter
Hi, I'm Vic WELCOME TO THE U.S. Free baloney sandwiches here
Member # 17
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posted July 04, 2004 12:50 PM
Calm down Byron me lad:) None of us has denied their existence, as I mentioned, Ive seen one too...well three pounds short, but close enough to realize, that they indeed are out there.
I just had to be a little suspect of your statement concerning the number, of the rare 50 pounders in your area...you ARE from Texas.....and you initals are BS. Just some good natured ribbin' my friend:)
On a serious note, odd isn't it, how these "pockets" as Leonard has aptly named them, are located? I can shoot an average 25 pound coyote in my back yard, shoot the same one in New Mexico and west Texas. Kill a 50 pounder east of Dallas, then shoot an average 25 pounder in Minnesota. Head further north into Canada, and shoot a 50 plus pound coyote, then head south to Florida and shoot another itty bitty one there.....wierd? Thank gawd im a hunter and not a biologist or it would trouble me to no end attempting to figure it out? Im here, and not there, so my little ole 25 pound coyotes keep me fairly amused and sometimes, confused.
Posts: 1629 | From: 5 miles west of Tim | Registered: Jan 2003
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted July 04, 2004 12:58 PM
I recall reading that the house fly's DNA is over 90% the same as human?
I sort of agree with Krusty to the extent that wolf and coyote crosses could have occured (X) thousand years ago, if someone can breathlessly, (and accurately) point to the discovery of "wolf DNA" in eastern coyotes. I wonder if anyone bothered to test western coyotes and computed the amount of "wolf DNA" that they found. In other words, "wolf DNA" could be a meaningless buzz word.
If the coyote and wolf have had occasional cross breedings throughout their historical contact, it doesn't give much basis for some of the theories. Without question, the two species are closely related, thereby begging the question: "does the eastern wolf genome contain some coyote DNA?"
Good hunting. LB
[ July 04, 2004, 12:59 PM: Message edited by: Leonard ]
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 31465 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
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Krustyklimber
prefers the bunny hugger pronunciation: ky o tee
Member # 72
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posted July 04, 2004 01:10 PM
Q,
I am gonna assume that was humor, or an attempt at it. ![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif) I hope you got a laugh from it.
Actually my ancestors (on my mother's side) were smart enough to get out of Nebraska...
I guess now I am a little bit less ingorant... I learned that sometime between 90 years ago and 300,000 years ago wolves and coyotes, and/or red wolves... (a Canadian kind not the Tex-Mex kind, which may actually already be an older hybrid of it's own) ...well these wolves might have interbred with coyotes, some guys think, or believe, or something...
But like someone else said, these are the same guys who say we don't have this or that critter in this or that place... til someone drives up with a dead one in the back of the truck, or runs it down with a car.
And MOST of all I have to consider the source, just because it's posted somewhere on the internet, dang, I bet it's all true!!!
*The first paper Einstien submitted on his time space theory was totally wrong... how do we know these guys are right?
And at least the guys Mr. Higgins lists have Dr. in front of their names. neener neener neener
Krusty
P.S. On my father's side, I am a first generation American... and (ESPECIALLY TODAY) I am very thankful that I am able to be an ignorant Bush bashing liberal. And that it doens't end up with my grama being tortured by the KGB, an Israeli helicopter didn't sweep in and kill my family and destroy our home, or I ended up rotting in a Cuban prison.
If the worst thing that happens by being a liberal, is pissing off few guys, who probably didn't like me anyways... oh freakin well!!! LMAO
P.P.S. Notice Leonard can only "sorta agree" with me? LOL
[ July 04, 2004, 01:21 PM: Message edited by: Krustyklimber ]
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Think about how stupid the average person is, then realize that half of them are stupider than that!
Posts: 1912 | From: Deep in the Blue Ridge Mountains of Virginia | Registered: Jan 2003
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted July 04, 2004 01:14 PM
Put another way, for clarity:
I've caught a number of one pound bass and the occasional four pounder. I've never (personally) seen a twenty pounder, but I have to accept the fact that they exist.....mostly in California, by the way.
Yes, coyotes do grow bigger some places, I think we all AGREE on that issue; even if you/me/we need to reread some comments. It's just hard to visualize, having seen so many, that my personal frame of reference is purely regional. I have the same trouble visualizing a Billion Dollars.
Good hunting. LB
edit: Krusty's a LIBERAL? That explains a lot.
[ July 04, 2004, 01:16 PM: Message edited by: Leonard ]
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 31465 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
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DOD
Knows what it's all about
Member # 308
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posted July 04, 2004 01:23 PM
I could be mistaken, but I believe DNA has been used to determine ancestory lines in people and determine which "Tribe" they originated from many years ago. I am sure that many links in the DNA chain are the same for almost if not all mammals, it is however the few that are different, and their characteristics that are meaningful.
Krusty; Phd only means "Piled Higher and Deeper", there are plenty of Phd's out there who don't know squat, and plenty of plain ole folks that can put many Phds' to shame. A piece of paper hanging on the wall is no more than a picture.
Leonard,
Yes Krusty is a LIBERAL with a GUN........My god
Also, a Billion Dollars isn't so hard to visualize. Look at John Kerry, you get that characteristic "shit eaten grin" and start lieing depending on who you talking to.
[ July 04, 2004, 01:29 PM: Message edited by: DOD ]
Posts: 26 | From: New Hampshire | Registered: Feb 2004
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Byron South
Knows what it's all about
Member # 213
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posted July 04, 2004 01:27 PM
No offense was taken AZ-Hunter, and none was ment. I have delt with scepticism from others though to the point, If I can't back it up I just keep my mouth shut. I have heard my share of wild tales and I'm somewhat a sceptic myself . I'm not suggesting you don't believe me, but if anybody does I'd be willing to send them a package.
I'm not one to get to wound up over things, but I don't care for someone disputeting what my own eyes have seen. Kinda like calling me a liar . Again I don't think anybody here even suggested that I'm full of BS or a liar, but others could read this thread and make that assumsion. I like to think I can take a ribbing as much as the next guy, and quite frankly I've enjoyed the responses in this thread. Like I said "if I can't back it up, I would have keep my mouth shut".
As far as pockets of large coyotes go. We have a pretty large pocket of these coyotes. From my personal experiences, it reaches from Dallas to at least the Lousiana line (200 miles),and from Arkansas to at least past Lufkin (250 miles or so) I would assume it goes further East and North but this is where my experience's has been. On another note about these coyotes is that these coyotes color is darker, like the one that Randy posted. In fact we accually see a black coyote from time to time. I have seen several at taxidermy shops, and seen a few live ones. I accually have some footage of one I shot on my next video. I don't believe these are crossed with dogs, as they resemble a coyote in every respect except for color. I have seen footage of wolf packs where they have different color wolves in the same pack. I wonder if this is because of more wolf like traits in our coyotes.
As far as DNA research goes I'm certainly not up on it. I've heard though that you can find wolf DNA in lap dogs. And didn't Nicole Simpson killer have the same DNA as OJ?
Krusty, You being a liberal explains a lot. You liberals never listen to reason
Byron
[ July 04, 2004, 01:45 PM: Message edited by: Byron South ]
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"Coming to the Call" predator hunting videos. Volumes I, II, III and IV. Order two or more and pay no S&H www.comingtothecall.com
Posts: 313 | From: Texas | Registered: Jun 2003
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DOD
Knows what it's all about
Member # 308
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posted July 04, 2004 01:35 PM
Byron,
I have heard of a Black one up here too ( have to do DNA testing to see if they are related ). It seems as though the Black color variant is quite rare. The Black one here is/was wanted by the state for evaluation.
I have also seen Red ones that appear strange in color. Blondes also, but they seem to be more common.
It's interesting how some colors variants are more common than others.
Posts: 26 | From: New Hampshire | Registered: Feb 2004
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Krustyklimber
prefers the bunny hugger pronunciation: ky o tee
Member # 72
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posted July 04, 2004 01:53 PM
Q,
Gee thanks for "outing me" on the board... I feel like a PETA member or something. ![[Confused]](confused.gif) LOL
DOD,
Did ya happen to catch the PBS series were they showed how they traced man's origins, and path out of Africa, through tribal DNA markers?
I did, a couple times now.
The guy (a Phd.) said they could not have done it until the human genome had been mapped out, that it was the "drivers guide" and the DNA was the map.. they just didn't know how to drive the car before.
*By the way the Dr. line was a joke at Q, we got this "thing"... (I take it as "Campfire Talk"... I'd pass the bottle his way after he made a joke at me, and make a joke back at him, reminding the drooling fool not to backwash in the bottle... we'd all laugh).
And actually us liberals are the ones who most need guns... to protect ourselves from already armed republicans.
HEY!!! I don't know who signed me up with the liberal party... I coulda swore I was an American... one Nation, under God, INDIVISABLE... and all.
The Constitution allows us certain rights... CLEARLY owning a firearm is covered under these rights.
I support that.
Life. Liberty. And the pursuit of Happiness... I guess wanting that for everyone on Earth make me a bad guy. Hehehe
By the way everyone... Byron has a NEW VIDEO coming out soon!
Krusty
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Think about how stupid the average person is, then realize that half of them are stupider than that!
Posts: 1912 | From: Deep in the Blue Ridge Mountains of Virginia | Registered: Jan 2003
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Byron South
Knows what it's all about
Member # 213
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posted July 04, 2004 04:03 PM
Quote from Krusty.
"Life. Liberty. And the pursuit of Happiness... I guess wanting that for everyone on Earth make me a bad guy. Hehehe"
No that doesn't make you a bad guy, BUT WANTING ME TO GIVE WHAT I'VE WORKED MY ARSE OF FOR TO SOME A-HOLE THAT AIN'T GOT OFF HIS COUCH EXCEPT TO GO THE THE MAIL BOX, FOR HIS LIFE LIBERY AND PURSUIT OF HAPINESS DOES .
I have enjoyed this thread, but I'm about finished with it. I love politics and like to debate it but not here.
Good Hunting
Byron
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"Coming to the Call" predator hunting videos. Volumes I, II, III and IV. Order two or more and pay no S&H www.comingtothecall.com
Posts: 313 | From: Texas | Registered: Jun 2003
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Rich Higgins
unknown comic
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posted July 04, 2004 04:21 PM
Biologists have long used dentition and cranial measurements to identify and distinguish between coyote sub-species, wolves and domestic dogs. They are able to identify canid hybrids with the same process.
Then in 67 or 69 Drs. Lawrence and Bossert (and I quote)
"applied the numerical technique of linear discriminate function analysis to canis taxonomy and developed "target" discriminate function coefficients for domestic dogs, wolves, and coyotes." So there. I hope that satisfactorily explains and settles that for once and for all. LOL
The New Hampshire and Maine coyotes were recognized as being distinctly different from other coyote subspecies. At least six biologists devoted long periods of their lives to the exclusive study of the animal. Drs. Silver and Silver in fact at first thought that they were wolf-dog hybrids and bred and raised over fifty assorted canines between coyotes imported from Wyomong and Wisconsin and various domestic dogs They later used the results of their studies combined with discriminant function analysis to determine that the New Hampshire and Maine coyotes were indeed wolf-coyote hybrids. Later DNA analysis confirmed their results. These coyotes are are presently confined to the Maine-New Hampshire pocket. Pennsylvania and New York have their own "Kodiaks" as Byron tagged his. Dr. Henry Hilton wrote,
"specimens from Pennsylvania and New York were more extremely varied suggesting that in certain areas where access to a variety of Canis stock exists, or where introductions may occur, coyote populations consist of a "mixed bag" of phenotypes."
I have hunts booked , so far, with nine different hunters this fall and winter in eight different eastern states. I hope to get some good video of that "mixed bag".
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Rich Higgins
unknown comic
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posted July 04, 2004 04:32 PM
See any difference?
[ July 04, 2004, 04:43 PM: Message edited by: Rich Higgins ]
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crapshoot
Knows what it's all about
Member # 225
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posted July 04, 2004 05:50 PM
Who is that masked man with the cute little puppy? ![[Wink]](wink.gif)
Posts: 44 | From: S. Nevada | Registered: Jul 2003
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted July 04, 2004 05:57 PM
There's that "Weekend at Bernie's" picture, again. With his dog, Spot.
quote:
Then in 67 or 69 Drs. Lawrence and Bossert (and I quote)
"applied the numerical technique of linear discriminate function analysis to canis taxonomy and developed "target" discriminate function coefficients for domestic dogs, wolves, and coyotes." So there. I hope that satisfactorily explains and settles that for once and for all. LOL
Not for me, it doesn't?
edit: That's our own Jay Nistetter, the one with the furr on his face.
[ July 04, 2004, 06:03 PM: Message edited by: Leonard ]
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 31465 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
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DOD
Knows what it's all about
Member # 308
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posted July 04, 2004 06:49 PM
Rich,
You haven't told me how to do that yet. LOL
Post the other one I sent you, looking straight on at him. I think you can really see a definite difference if the facial characteristics in that on.
[ July 04, 2004, 06:52 PM: Message edited by: DOD ]
Posts: 26 | From: New Hampshire | Registered: Feb 2004
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crapshoot
Knows what it's all about
Member # 225
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posted July 04, 2004 07:14 PM
I know who Jay is.
Posts: 44 | From: S. Nevada | Registered: Jul 2003
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Greenside
seems to know what he is talking about
Member # 10
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posted July 04, 2004 07:33 PM
Leonard
quote:
"does the eastern wolf genome contain some coyote DNA?"
I'm starting to think there might be some truth to that one.
Dennis
Posts: 719 | From: IA | Registered: Jan 2003
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Rich Higgins
unknown comic
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posted July 04, 2004 07:58 PM
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crapshoot
Knows what it's all about
Member # 225
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posted July 04, 2004 09:41 PM
Man! IS that a pumkin head or what. They dont grow em like that here in southern Nevada.
Posts: 44 | From: S. Nevada | Registered: Jul 2003
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DOD
Knows what it's all about
Member # 308
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posted July 05, 2004 07:32 AM
That pack is about 12 inches wide. Both ears have old battle wounds, which are clarly visible, The left ear has a tear in it, about an inch long, the right actaully had a chunk missing. Both were old wounds and had healed over long ago.
DOD
Posts: 26 | From: New Hampshire | Registered: Feb 2004
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Byron South
Knows what it's all about
Member # 213
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posted July 05, 2004 08:10 AM
Three more biguns.
This on weighed 45#'s. Tanner and I killed this coyote within 1/4 mile of our home.
Two more East Texas coyotes. 42#'s and 50#'s.
 .
Vic, I don't need to calm down, my coyotes can whoop your coyotes any day . just kidding around .
Good Hunting
Byron
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"Coming to the Call" predator hunting videos. Volumes I, II, III and IV. Order two or more and pay no S&H www.comingtothecall.com
Posts: 313 | From: Texas | Registered: Jun 2003
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adkguide
Knows what it's all about
Member # 143
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posted July 05, 2004 09:31 AM
Q,
Got a good buddy of mine who is one of the best k9 trappers here in upstate NY. I think his biggest coyote from this past season weighs in at 58 lbs. Biggest ever was around 65, if i recollect right. He knows GS, even got a couple coyote dogs from him. Said the same thing as you, that guy piled up the most k9's season after season. Our adult NY yippers average about 40, I'd figure.
Posts: 11 | From: The 'Dacks | Registered: Feb 2003
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