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Author
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Topic: What's the best?
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted April 01, 2005 09:54 AM
That's great, but it's not what I meant.
Coaxing a coyote, however long it takes is a very satisfying thing to do, but it wastes time, and is the exact opposite of what I was describing: like he's on a string.
One after the other, bang flop, bang flop. Very efficient method of stacking them up, and it seems to occur (more often) while playing a hypnotic and repetitive distress at low volume.
Other variable sounds seem to break the rhythm, and the animal reacts to every note, (just to illustrate and exagerate) as you are describing, Rich.
Apparently it is a bit difficult to conceptualize?
Good hunting. LB
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 31499 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
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Rich Higgins
unknown comic
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posted April 01, 2005 11:31 AM
Nope, it's fairly easy to conceptualize. I simply responded to the question "Which is Best" within the context that Tom asked the question, not within the context of a whack 'em and stack 'em contest.
"Coaxing a coyote, however long it takes is a very satisfying thing to do, but it wastes time"
I'd like to hear Brent's take on that since they called all day in a heavily pressured area and that was the only coyote they saw.
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted April 01, 2005 11:55 AM
Rich, please. I think you know very well, what I'm talking about. I'm thinking of target rich conditions. What Brent does is necessary, within the structure of his environment. I think we all understand the difference.
Good hunting. LB
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 31499 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
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Rich Higgins
unknown comic
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posted April 01, 2005 01:36 PM
Leonard, say pretty please. ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
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Norm
Knows what it's all about
Member # 240
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posted April 01, 2005 02:41 PM
see how things have changed since the trip to Dr. Phil.... Please???
What is best.... is dependent upon the situation...
When hunting alone... I prefer electronics... takes away any extra motion involved with calling....
when there are two or more... I use both... electronic and hand calls.... 2 cottontails is better than one... a howl on the mini critr call amongst a ailing jack....
if you really want the best.... put 3 calls around your next.... the crit'r call... one of Jay's rhino's and one of cdog's predatr take a buddy with you... you call, they shoot....
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Carpe Diem
Posts: 778 | From: Phx AZ | Registered: Oct 2003
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keekee
Knows what it's all about
Member # 465
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posted April 01, 2005 06:01 PM
"Coaxing a coyote, however long it takes is a very satisfying thing to do, but it wastes time"
WOW! Thats about all I can say!
No, not really. The hunt Rich is talking about was in Az. That coyote really didnt want to be there. He showed up and it took forever to work him to the gun! Great footage! But you could tell he had other things on his mind.
My thought on that were I really dont think he would of even responded to an e-caller. He came to the calls just to see what the heck was going on over there. There were alot of diffrent calls threw out there and he came just out of curiosity.
Here coaxing is a must! I kill very very few coyotes that come running to the call. Dont get me wrong some do but most slowly make there way in or head strait down wind. Good coaxing skills are a good thing here.
Brent
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Kee's Custom Calls
http://www.keescalls.com
Posts: 295 | From: Southern Ohio | Registered: Dec 2004
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NASA
Knows what it's all about
Member # 177
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posted April 01, 2005 11:20 PM
I'm afraid the target rich environments and non-pressured coyotes of the 60's and 70's are gone forever. The constant encroachment of civilization, expanding suburbia, proliferation of off-road and all-terrain vehicles, and unrelenting enactment of "conservation" laws, have pretty much wiped out the "good 'ol days. They just don't come in thundering herds anymore.
There are probably some areas behind locked gates where old timers could reminisce, but "Access Denied" is more likely.
What's left for the "average" predator hunter is slim pickins' and educated dogs. Getting even one under these conditions takes some skill, and can be considered an accomplishment.
So in the context of that understanding, the question of "Which type of call is best" seems to have a more specific meaning.
This might help level the playing field between the two schools of thought. (This also came from another board.)
"Since you think in terms of contests, maybe the question should have been worded like one. How about this?
You are challenged to a 2 person (daytime) contest. One coyote only. It must be called ( you are monitored). No road hunting, no chasing, no shooting from the vehicle, no stalk and shoot. Pick a stand and calling only. Watchers and judges are in radio contact with each other, so no cheating is allowed. You both hunt the same general area. You are timed from the start. First fur on the ground wins. You can only use an ecaller or hand calls, not both.
NOW, which caller would be best?"
[ April 02, 2005, 06:08 AM: Message edited by: NASA ]
Posts: 1168 | From: Typical White Person | Registered: Apr 2003
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keekee
Knows what it's all about
Member # 465
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posted April 02, 2005 07:32 AM
I will take my hand calls! The e-caller would stay home!
Brent
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Kee's Custom Calls
http://www.keescalls.com
Posts: 295 | From: Southern Ohio | Registered: Dec 2004
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Az-Hunter
Hi, I'm Vic WELCOME TO THE U.S. Free baloney sandwiches here
Member # 17
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posted April 02, 2005 12:45 PM
You may not "think" he would have even came to an electronic call Brent, but you don't know, do you? You didn't use one with that particular coyote, so it's up in the air, as to whether or not it would have responded.
I could make the same assumptions with many coyotes I call using my electronic, claiming that the coyote was edgey, and most likely would have seen hand movement if I had been using a mouth call, it's called anecdotal evidence:)
This is one of the topics where it's difficult to call one method or the other "best". I think when speaking about particular electronic callers, or hand calls, you can argue as to which is "best" in it's category, but not between the two different calls specifically.
Which method may be "best" for an individual caller is another matter I suppose, and to each his own. For my calling technique, I think the electronic caller is best for my calling situations. I don't subscribe to the "working" or "coaxing" a coyote philosophy as such. I may turn the volumne up or down or even off, but never switch call sounds midstream, but I suppose a guy could argue I am "working" a coyote by doing such? I always felt a guy was taking himself a little to serious, when talking about how he "worked" this ole dog in, and never could have done it without a mouth call...expertly blown by noneother than himself:).Ive had plenty of coyotes slink and creep, duck and dodge their way to the monotonous sounds from my electronic caller; to presume that I could call them any better "working" them with a hand call? My opinion is that a guy will always kill more coyotes with electronics than mouth calls....notice I said kill, not call.
Something fun to kick around I guess, but tough to make a call on which method is "best". A guy just has to figure out which method he likes "best", but it's foolish to agrue which is the difinitive "best".
Posts: 1634 | From: 5 miles west of Tim | Registered: Jan 2003
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Rich Higgins
unknown comic
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posted April 02, 2005 05:06 PM
Vic, it isn't foolish to argue which is the definitive "best'. That is the purpose of this board and these are the only subjects that will draw you out into the open anymore.
Of course you are correct to state that you can't possibly know if a coyote will come to an e-call but not a handcall or vice-versa anymore than you can know why they came to the call. Their complexity of behavior makes their motives almost as varied as humans. Six different people may come to Circle K for six different reasons. One for a Diet Dr. Pepper, one for a candy bar, one for cigarettes, one for a magazine, one just to pay for gas so he can go call coyotes. So it is with coyotes. Some come to the call out of curiosity, some out of social concerns, some for hunger, competition, greed, territorial issues. Sometimes I make a Circle K stand and try to give them all of those things. It is much easier for me to do that with handcalls. I call many more coyotes with handcalls because I have more confidence in them than with an e-call. HIGH CONFIDENCE STANDS ARE MORE PRODUCTIVE THAN LOW CONFIDENCE STANDS.. Ergo, handcalls are best for me, under most conditions, making them my personal preference, just as electronics are your preference, and apparently thousands of others, based on Foxpro sales. And yes, I do "work" some coyotes into staying in front of my camera for longer periods of time than they want to. Sometimes it's kinda hard to make them leave.
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Az-Hunter
Hi, I'm Vic WELCOME TO THE U.S. Free baloney sandwiches here
Member # 17
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posted April 02, 2005 06:42 PM
Rich, my ole friend:), I think you may have just uttered the most profound sentence Ive seen typed on these boards. "High confidence stands, are more productive, than low confidence stands"
Don't you just love it when you sit down, pull your headnet down,start calling,and absolutely KNOW a coyote is coming, wonderful feeling on a stand. Well said buddy.
Posts: 1634 | From: 5 miles west of Tim | Registered: Jan 2003
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted April 02, 2005 07:17 PM
I agree with Vic to the extent that I could have written it myself.
I also agree that it's getting harder and harder to smoke him out.
Good hunting. LB
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 31499 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
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Lungbuster
Knows what it's all about
Member # 630
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posted April 03, 2005 10:33 PM
Rich,
Could you describe what calls you use during a circle k stand?
For NASA's contest, I would use my THO cottontail. My best call, no doubt about it.
Posts: 225 | From: Idaho | Registered: Mar 2005
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keekee
Knows what it's all about
Member # 465
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posted April 04, 2005 11:53 AM
Az Hunter,
I dont know a 100% that the coyote would not of came to an e-caller, as with all coyotes there is no 100%.
But I do know this, the areas I call get pounded! And 9 out of 10 of callers run e-callers. Me being the 10th caller. If I run an e-caller on all my stands then my kill or call rate goes way down! That tells me that my hand calls in those areas are going to bring in more criters. I will say this, I can change my set ups and change my calling rate, they may still respond but they do it in a diffrent way, and if I change my set ups to allow for this I can shoot them off of an e-caller. And alot depends on what sounds you run on the caller.
I dont know that there is a best but I think Rich said it best. Confidence in the calling has alot to do with it, be it an e-caller or a hand call or calls.
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Kee's Custom Calls
http://www.keescalls.com
Posts: 295 | From: Southern Ohio | Registered: Dec 2004
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Tim Behle
Administrator MacNeal Sector
Member # 209
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posted April 04, 2005 05:52 PM
quote:
HIGH CONFIDENCE STANDS ARE MORE PRODUCTIVE THAN LOW CONFIDENCE STANDS
Why would anyone even bother to set up and call a place that they were not sure that coyotes were close enough to hear them? You can't call in a coyote that isn't close enough to hear you, so why set up in a place that you are not confident with?
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Personally, I carry a gun because I'm too young to die and too old to take
an ass kickin'.
Posts: 3160 | From: Five Miles East of Vic, AZ | Registered: Jun 2003
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted April 04, 2005 06:01 PM
Excellent point, Tim.
However, I have set up, for reasons unknown, in places where I was sure that I was wasting my time, and guess what?
Actually, there is a difference between the perfect spot to set up and call; and being in a target rich area, one in which it really doesn't matter if you sit by this bush or that bush.
Good hunting. LB
edit: I feel kind of bad for NASA, since he believes the good old days are long gone. On the other hand, I'm glad he feels that way.
[ April 04, 2005, 06:04 PM: Message edited by: Leonard ]
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 31499 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
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Rich Higgins
unknown comic
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posted April 04, 2005 07:30 PM
Why would anyone even bother to set up and call a place that they were not sure that coyotes were close enough to hear them?
Contest hunters often set up low confidence stands while pounding out 20 stands in a day. But that really isn't the only scenario. Not all stands are "high confidence", the kind that Vic described where you pull down the face mask and give it 100% because you absolutely know a coyote will come. The stands the guys posted about on the "eyes wide shut" threat understand what a low confidence stand is. You don't daydream or doze off on a high confidence stand.
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Tim Behle
Administrator MacNeal Sector
Member # 209
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posted April 04, 2005 07:58 PM
I guess that's where I differ mentally with a contest hunter.
I'd rather make 4-5 stands in the morning, and kill 3-4 coyotes and be home by noon and work around the house than spend all day busting my ass for a couple of more coyotes.
To me, the point of diminishing returns, must come sooner than it does with most contest hunters.
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Personally, I carry a gun because I'm too young to die and too old to take
an ass kickin'.
Posts: 3160 | From: Five Miles East of Vic, AZ | Registered: Jun 2003
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Doggitter
Knows what it's all about
Member # 489
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posted April 04, 2005 08:21 PM
"plays a monotonous and continuous sound"
How literally do you mean this Leonard? As in a single tone actually like a from a tone generator or stuck horn button? Hmm. Never heard this before. I'm going to read some more.
Posts: 273 | From: Oregon rain forest | Registered: Dec 2004
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Doggitter
Knows what it's all about
Member # 489
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posted April 04, 2005 08:43 PM
Why set up on an unproductive stand?
How did you get to know what a produtive stand is?
And Tim, I am completely willing to slug it out all day for the chance at one more Coyote. Just have to see what's over the next hill and around the next corner. It may be the next Coyote honey-hole. ![[Razz]](tongue.gif)
Posts: 273 | From: Oregon rain forest | Registered: Dec 2004
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted April 04, 2005 11:05 PM
by monotonous and continuous, I mean: Wah, wah, wah, in a closed loop, no pauses, no changes in volume or tone. Just the same Wah, wah, wah, over and over, and over. Or, it could be meow, meow, meow......twenty minutes of exactly the same sound. OR. It might be squeak, squeak, squeak for twenty minutes.
Good hunting. LB
I wouldn't call anything I didn't have confidence in; unless I was forced out by rain or wind or snow, or impassable roads, a locked gate, etc. In other words, if I couldn't get to where I wanted to be, and I was forced to hunt where I was.
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 31499 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
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Rich Higgins
unknown comic
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posted April 05, 2005 07:01 AM
Tyler and I, and a lot of callers, hunt from dawn to dusk. We call some stands that have produced in the past, that MAY have a coyote, although our confidence in it is not high and we cold call some stands in new areas based on a couple of tracks or scat. We call those low confidence stands because we are there at that time and we can not expect to call a coyote unless we try and because even calling low confidence stands is better than doing chores at home or sitting in front of the TV. Even in the "good old days" which Tom laments we were not certain that every stand would produce. Now, today, in this area, at certain times of the year we feel lucky to call a coyote in one stand out of five. It would be unreasonable to expect a coyote in on every stand. Subsequently we have more confidence in stands that produce consistantly and less confidence in stands that produce only occasionally.
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Frank
CAN START A FIRE WITH A BUCK KNIFE AND A ROCK
Member # 6
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posted April 06, 2005 11:40 AM
When I was hunting I'd use an electronic call mostly. When I got a finicky coyote, I'd switch to a mouth call. It often made the difference.
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"Truth is no prostitute, that throws herself away upon those who do not desire her; she is rather so coy a beauty that he who sacrifices everything to her cannot even then be sure of her favor".
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