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Author
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Topic: What would you do?
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted June 18, 2006 02:55 PM
Still an interesting discussion of ethical and moral considerations. Please be careful about knocking another man's belief system, agree with it or not.
I also tend to agree with Vic. I don't shoot hawks or owls or eagles and I don't poach game out of season. If I were to observe someone do those things, I may form an opinion about your charactor, but I don't think I would notify authorities?
I really hope that I see some "wiggle room" as DAA said. I remember a case of overzelous game law enforcement, here in CA, several years ago. Seems some guy miscounted his quail and he had one in his vest pouch and a limit in the cooler. They crucified him. Just last yesr, we were hunting dove down below Yuma and I dropped all the birds (two limits) at my son's house. When I got home, I found a bird in one of my field jacket pockets. Is cuff 'em and stuff 'em the best and only solution?
They used to argue something about "intent" in breaking a law, maybe that doesn't apply anymore? Like, did that 'yard intend to kill six people because he was caught tresspassing, or was he defending himself, as some claim?
Good hunting. LB
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 31472 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
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Okanagan
Budding Spin Doctor
Member # 870
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posted June 18, 2006 03:07 PM
Cdog911,
"And Okanagan, your post reveals equally as much about your character. Except that I'm at the other extreme. Just where I want to be. My kids and my wife are fine. All three of them are highly respectful of the law and consider them to be mandates rather than friendly suggestions. Sure, we miss out on a lot (apparently), but that's a cross we'll bear. At least we don't carry the guilt of committing crimes against our neighbors. I presume you think there is room for flexibility within the construct of the law and it's all legal until you get caught. In that, I disagree. Believe it or not, one can live within those laws and still maintain a rather high standard of living, quality-wise."
Cdog911, of course it reveals more about me than it does the subject. However, you have again proved my point in that you read into my words an assumption that is not stated, not implied and simply is not there. No where did I advocate nor condone breaking of laws. I just don't want anything to do with your attitude nor approach to life. As you did with me and you have written about others, you presume the worst, read the worst into others, seem to enjoy nailing others. No thanks. I do not violate games laws nor other laws except as in the common sense conditions AZ has thoughtfully laid out. My kids are responsible adults, one of them in a high position of Federal responsiblity.
I wish you and your family the best. I hope I am wrong and have misread the rigid, vindictive approach to life you've described. Change your mind? Rigid things don't change, they break.
[ June 18, 2006, 08:04 PM: Message edited by: Okanagan ]
Posts: 269 | From: 49th Parrallel | Registered: Jun 2006
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JoeF
resides "back east"
Member # 228
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posted June 18, 2006 03:35 PM
CDog, I do not have the time to debate things in detail. I will say that your earlier posts came across as a rental cop. A uniform, a badge, but no freakin gun....
I have absolutely no use for anyone who would interpret and live by the letter of the law without consideration of practicality.
You stated "I think we actually agree but are unclear on certain details."
Of that, I have no doubt.
Posts: 646 | From: Midwest | Registered: Aug 2003
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TA17Rem
Hello, I'm the legendary Tim Anderson, Field Marshall, Southern Minneesota Sector
Member # 794
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posted June 18, 2006 03:39 PM
I have a ethic's situation for you Cdog911. There is this hunter here at home, he is retired and collects social security. Anyway i new of him for years and i was like you and put a label on him as a slob hunter. He would shoot deer when ever he had the chance and any other game animals he could find. I always told myself if i ever catch him doing wrong i would turn him in,well it never happened. One day i was out in the snow hunting coyotes and i had one up and running and i stayed on his track and kept dogging him. I finally got close enough for a shot and got the coyote. When i got to the road i was 4 miles from my truck and i started walking down the road and along comes this guy. He offered me a ride back to my truck and on the way there we got to talking and i found out this guy was'nt as badd as i thought.
We ended up hunting coyotes together and i got to know him a little more each time out. I talked to one of his son's and found out that social security is'nt what its cracked up to be. Anyway this guy fishes all summer to provide food for the table and dureing the fall he hunts ducks and geese. Then deer season rolls around and he harvest's a few deer mostly doe's . Then pheasent season starts up and he is out everyday shooting birds from the road. Later when the snow starts to fly he is out after fox and coyotes for the fur. When all the season's end then he does what you call ADC work. He goes out and does work for farmers that have CRP lands, if there is a problem with running dogs, birds of prey, stray house cats, raccoons, skunks, ect. he takes care of the problem with a bullet from his gun. The results of all this so called slob hunting; We have more pheasants here than we have had since i can remember, the deer herds are healthy and produceing some nice bucks, more ducks sticking around and haveing there young, and the mange seems to be showing its self less and less each year which means more well furred coyotes. Alot of the local farmers hunt pheasants and deer and so far they are real happy with the results. Infact they are so happy that there are'nt to many places in this area that we cannot hunt coyote's. And this so called slob hunter also likes to watch birds and other wildlife, and has a dog. In youre eyes Cdog911 i should turn him in, and what go back to the way hunting once was, no way. Oh buy the way this guys freezer is full of wild game, he eats it year round, dose'nt buy pork or beef, has a few bucks left over for gas and bullets. I've been coyote hunting with him for over 15 years is this man a slob hunter not in my eyes, he's more of a surviver.
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What if I told you, the left wing and right wing both belong to same bird!
Posts: 5077 | From: S.D. | Registered: Jan 2006
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Andy L
HI, I'M THE NEW MODERATOR OF THE CENTRAL MISSOURI FORUM, PULL MY FINGER!
Member # 642
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posted June 18, 2006 05:39 PM
Lance,
Im not slamming you. Everyone is entitled to an opinion. Ours dont see exactly eye to eye, but thats ok too.
Im guilty of being a reformed chickenhawk killer. I grew up. I know some guys that still do it for "sport", but Im over it. Honestly, there are too damned many of them around here at least. Seems they are on every telephone pole and lone tall tree. Unreal. I wouldnt hesitate to kill one if it caused me problems. I think the turkey farmers around here kill several. I also wouldnt turn anyone in for that. Unless they were guilty of other things as well.
As for farmers in my question, we dont square up on that either. Landowners own the land, hence the name. I dont see anything wrong with a guy eating something off his own land. Im not talking about commercial hunting or anything, just a few to eat, when he wants. As for leasing ground, I dont like it, but I sure wont tell someone they cant lease their hunting rights to make money off their own land. That sounds almost, dare I say it, Liberal!! ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
Anyway, do what you want of course. I dont see a reason to get into it with a bunch of guys you buddy with on a board over something like this. I would still go to coffee with ya and hunt with ya, if you dont mind being around a slob like me.
![[Wink]](wink.gif)
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Andy
Posts: 2645 | From: Central Missouri | Registered: Apr 2005
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UTcaller
NEVADA NIGHT FIGHTER
Member # 8
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posted June 18, 2006 05:50 PM
Yea, I don't understand the problem.If you have a problem with a "chickenhawk" or any other wild animal killing your chickens or other livestock kill the damn thing.If you're out calling and you see a hawk just sitting on a fence post in the middle of the desert leave the damn thing alone.On thing for sure the last thing hunters need in there life is more government,whether its local law enforcement or fish and game.Like Vic said just don't hunt with them anymore if they are killing shit just for the sake of killing it.Good Hunting Chad
Posts: 1621 | From: Utah | Registered: Jan 2003
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Tim Behle
Administrator MacNeal Sector
Member # 209
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posted June 18, 2006 06:50 PM
quote:
Still an interesting discussion of ethical and moral considerations. Please be careful about knocking another man's belief system, agree with it or not.
That's one of the big things that I love about this board, and I know that some guys hate it, and it has run a few good people ( with thin skins ) off to other places.
Leonard isn't here to protect anyone's feelings. If you have an opinion, spit it out. But don't expect anyone to hold your hand if someone else doesn't like your opinion and tells you so.
Morals and ethics are a real touchy subjects, people get fired up fast when theirs are questioned. I think Leonard does a hell of a good job at keeping the flames to a minimum, while allowing each person fair space to voice their thoughts.
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Personally, I carry a gun because I'm too young to die and too old to take
an ass kickin'.
Posts: 3160 | From: Five Miles East of Vic, AZ | Registered: Jun 2003
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Rich
2,000th post PAKMAN
Member # 112
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posted June 18, 2006 07:34 PM
I can see myself in Tim Behle's shoes, and if a hawk swooped down and grabbed one of my chickens I can see myself giving that hawk a lesson regarding bullet speed. I know that I said earlier thatI would never shoot a hawk. That is a lesson for ME. Never say Never.
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If you call the coyotes in close, you won't NEED a high dollar range finder.
Posts: 2854 | From: Iowa | Registered: Feb 2003
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Cdog911
"There are some ideas so absurd only an intellectual could believe them."--George Orwell.
Member # 7
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posted June 18, 2006 07:56 PM
Dave said,
quote:
Anyone that would do that to a hunting partner, over something as stupid and trivial as some of the scenarios described in this thread, is someone I want as far away from me as possible when I'm out enjoying my precious sanity time.
The only scenario I've described is the one I suggested at first and that is of a guy willfully and deliberately shooting a federally protected bird of prey. I then went on to ask if there is a difference between doing that and, say, shooting a squirrel or a deer. That's where things get a little "iffy".
I went back and re-read everything I posted here and I think I've been consistent in saying that shooting a federally protected species deliberately is wrong and I will always view it as such. It's apparent that my upbringing and experience are different than just about anyone's here in that I was brought up to regard anyone that consider laws to be up to your own subjective interpretation with respect to game laws to be an unethical hunter, and I use the term "hunter" quite loosely.
Would I turn you in? In truth, that would depend upon the circumstances. I can say for sure that any game warden in this state that's worth his shit doesn't go around giving friendly warnings to violaters. At least, not if they plan on keeping their jobs. Their job is to make sure laws are being followed and, if not, they issue citations, make arrests and allow the county attorney to decide as to prosecutorial action. My experience was in general law enforcement. The only time I ever saw anyone get off with anything less than balls to the walls criminal justice when committing a serious crime was as the result of making a deal with someone like drug enforcement to provide information and intel on their higher ups. You shoot a hawk around here and I know the guy that's going to be hunting for you, and it won't be with a warning ticket. Is he wrong, too? Or is he just doing his job?
I'm not looking to drop a dime on any of my soon-to-be-former hunting buddies, but by God, if you're dumb enough to commit a flagrant violation of the law, and do so with intent rather than an explainable accident, then shouldn't you be man enough to take the punishment?
Joe, If I recall, you were in law enforcement. Right? How many guys out there lost their DL's for DUI and blamed it on "that sonofabitch Joe whatever-your-last-name-is". It's never their fault, is it? Yeah, they get drunk, drive all over and once, twice, three times they get busted. It's always the cop's fault. They never take accountability for it. And in a similar way, I turn you in for deliberately killing something like a hawk and it's my fault you lost your license to hunt. You broke the damned law. What's so grey about that.
Should that landowner get busted? Jailed? Probably not, but if he gets caught, it will be the job of the LEO to cite him and let the judge decide based upon sentencing guidelines.
Make the arrest and let the County or District Attorney decide whether to prosecute.
TA.17Rem,
Sounds like you and that old guy have become close. I presume from your story that he doesn't have a hunting license. And cannot afford one because he is of modest means. You didn't say or, at least, I didn't see it. Legally, he's in the wrong. Morally, it may be necessary for him to supplement his pantry with game. The ADC work is pretty much consistent with what I do so I consider it returning a favor by offering your expertise and talents pro bono in exchange for trespass rights. But, if I were you, I'd take him and get him the license on your dime so he didn't have to break the law to survive and you didn't have to worry about what would happen to him if he ever did. Teach a man to fish... But that's just an idea.
No, it isn't all black and white. But I think a lot of you got so pissed reading the evolution of this thread that you couldn't read straight. My scenario was rather straight forward and in no time, it became loaded down with "what ifs". I can appreciate your many and varied reasons for turning the other cheek, but we'll have to diplomatically disagree on some things. You shoot a hawk just to shoot something and you've broken the law. Shoot a hawk because he's eating your chickens or damaging your property - you have the right to protect your belongings. Apples and oranges. Two completely different situations. One is strictly forbidden and totally illegal. The other is manageable within the laws simply by speaking with the authorities and working with them to find a solution. Even if it is shooting the offending bird. I'm not that attached to that bird. ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
I know and am good friends with several dozen law enforcement officers, game wardens, agents for state and federal law enforcement agencies. I would find it very difficult to stand by and watch someone deliberatly break the law, then spend personal time with those guys and act so hypocritically as to make them think I regard the laws as always necessary only when I don't have to lose friends or hurt someone else's feelings because THEY chose to step outside the lines.
If that makes you not want to hunt with the likes of me, so be it. Won't be losing any sleep over it. Just know that if the time comes that we do share a stand, it's really very simple. DON'T DELIBERATELY COMMIT A CRIME. Up until the past few hours, I sort of felt that this concept wasn't so abstract. Go figger.
Oh, and for the record, I've hunted with several people on this board and have yet to turn anyone into the authorities. (Except for Loco, but I posted bail for him a couple hours later.)
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I am only one. But still, I am one. I cannot do everything, but still, I can do something; and, because I cannot do everything, I will not refuse to do something that I can do.
Posts: 5438 | From: The gun-lovin', gun-friendly wild, wild west | Registered: Jan 2003
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DAA
Utah/Promoted WESTERN REGIONAL Hunt Director
Member # 11
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posted June 18, 2006 08:04 PM
quote:
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Still an interesting discussion of ethical and moral considerations. Please be careful about knocking another man's belief system, agree with it or not.
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I'll go along with that. And I don't mean to come across like I'm knocking Lance's beliefs. I just can't understand them, that's all. I mean, seriously, just can not comprehend. Not even enough to say I "disagree".
To try and put it in the context in which I'm taking it... You are out hunting with a guy. Now, for me, the fact I'm out hunting with someone, says that I've got a history and some sort of relationship with this person. It's somebody I know. Somebody I like. Somebody I hold in some esteem. I'm just extremely jealous of my hunting time and there really just aren't that many people I'm willing to spend it with.
But let's say it's someone I met here on Leonard's board, and it's one of our first trips out, just as a for instance. Out of the blue, the guy up and blasts a hawk. Damned odd behavior, for sure. And I'm not likely to be happy about it. Depending on the particulars, our hunting relationship may not go any further. But, to take it as far as Lance has suggested, to turn the guy in... Whoa! Like Lance himself partially described, the penalty for capping a raptor can be very severe. A big ass fine, at the very least. With a chance for even worse than a big fine. Confiscation, a record, loss of hunting privileges, perhaps a restriction on firearms etc. In other words, we're talking a fairly big deal for the guy that shot the hawk. You're jacking with his life in a major way. I'm going to do that to my hunting partner? Over a hawk? Not in this lifetime, I'm not.
Like I said, I simply can't understand that. But, so be it. Different strokes and all that. Lance and I obviously agree that we wouldn't ever want to hunt with each other. No hard feelings about it here, and I'm sure he has none either. Just a discussion, nobody has actually been harmed. And we're both forewarned now, which is good. No big whoop, from where I sit.
To answer the original question directly -- I'm really not sure what I'd do. It would depend on the specifics of the situation and my history with the guy. But I sure wouldn't turn him in. No way.
- DAA
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"Oh yeah, they're gonna talk to you, and talk to you, and talk to you about individual freedom, but they see a free individual, it's gonna scare 'em." -- George Hanson, Easy Rider, 1969.
Rocky Mountain Varmint Hunter
Posts: 2676 | From: Salt Lake City, UT | Registered: Jan 2003
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TA17Rem
Hello, I'm the legendary Tim Anderson, Field Marshall, Southern Minneesota Sector
Member # 794
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posted June 18, 2006 08:27 PM
Cdog911; I have read all youre posts, some twice and i think you did a good job of presenting youre side and i can see where you are comeing from and i also would like to say job well done. You have read our veiws on the subject and i hope you understand were we are comeing from. From what i have read none of us are badd hunters, and we don't go out of our way to kill those poor birds unless they are being bad, and its not a very pleasent job but it has to be done. As far as my friend goes , yes he does have a lic. and he donates money to the DNR every year, about 75.00. I won't drink coffee with you, but would be glad to hunt with you anytime. P.S. leave cell phone at home though. LOL No hard feelings here.
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What if I told you, the left wing and right wing both belong to same bird!
Posts: 5077 | From: S.D. | Registered: Jan 2006
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DAA
Utah/Promoted WESTERN REGIONAL Hunt Director
Member # 11
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posted June 18, 2006 08:43 PM
Not to pick at a sore that shouldn't ought to be picked at, but...
And worse, I really hate it when anyone does the line-by-line quote and reply. But I'm about to do a teeny little bit of it myself...
Lance, you just said:
"The only scenario I've described is the one I suggested at first and that is of a guy willfully and deliberately shooting a federally protected bird of prey."
No, that is not the only scenario you described. In your original post, you included capping a tweety bird like a meadowlark or any other non-game animal (a broad term - take your pick, chipmunk, songbird, whatever...). Like I said, I hate the line-by-line pick it apart style of posting, so I won't do anymore of it. But you did not limit the discussion to wanton destruction of a hawk. Further, you initally stated that breaking the law is breaking the law and that there are no excuses. That, in fact, if you were hunting with anyone that intentionally shot any illegal animal, game or non-game, you would make them walk, and turn their ass in. That's what you said. Isn't it? You went on later to say there isn't even any wiggle room as far as you are concerned. Break the law, I'm turning your ass in. Period. Shoot a tweety bird and I'm signing the ticket when the warden gets here Pal. That's how I read it?
Now, you're saying that you were only talking about the hawk scenario, and now you seem to be saying that there actually is room for common sense, and that there actually are gray areas, and that you might not actually turn a hunting partner in for shooting a tweety bird.
If you had said that in the first place, I doubt this thread would have gone anywhere, and there would be fewer guys that have read this thread sitting home saying to themselves "holy shit, I never want to hunt with that guy...".
Your last post comes across a lot different than your first couple. Again, that's how I read it anyway?
But, still, no big whoop.
- DAA
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"Oh yeah, they're gonna talk to you, and talk to you, and talk to you about individual freedom, but they see a free individual, it's gonna scare 'em." -- George Hanson, Easy Rider, 1969.
Rocky Mountain Varmint Hunter
Posts: 2676 | From: Salt Lake City, UT | Registered: Jan 2003
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Okanagan
Budding Spin Doctor
Member # 870
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posted June 18, 2006 08:44 PM
DAA, thoughtful post. As to the original post, the first problem that has generated more problems is that it is a hypothetical situation. Never make up a case study is the first rule for using them, and this is a case study. In real life, I know exactly what happened, or my perception of it, and what I actually did.
Second, in the original situation I might even turn the guy in, almost certainly would never hunt with him again. If I turned him in it would be with grief, not self righteous joy.
I used to live in a remote area where most folks weren't particular about following game laws. When invited to hunt with those who were my friends, I had a set little mini-speech with a smile. I'd say that if I went we'd have to follow the game laws, and if that was going to mess up their hunt, I'd best not go. I only had to do that a time or two, because their response was, "We know how you follow the laws. We wouldn't have invited you if we weren't going to stay legal." There are a whole bunch of pertinent factors I'm leaving out that shed more light on this story, but that's the heart of it.
I don't feel the least bad that I wasn't on the phone all of the time turning my neighbors in. One of the finest elk roasts I've ever tasted came as a gift with the words, "Ask me no questions." A long time later the story of that meat, told over a campfire in the snow, was even more delicious than the roast. It was technically illegal, morally a right thing to do. Guess I should have sicced the Feds on that old photographer, a lifetime friend and the most scrupulous about law of anyone I know. His moral compass is why he broke the law.
He is still a friend and I look at one of his framed photographs as I sit here. The poacher who killed the elk was caught and charged. The elk are doing fine. I see no good that could have come from turning him in, only negatives.
Then perhaps, another notch on one's psyche for having called the authorities and accused a friend or acquaintence of lawbreaking might count as a positive for some of us.
Some who read this will have eyes to see the subtle point. Some won't. Life is in colour, and it moves. It's not a black and white still photo, however hard we try to make it so.
[ June 18, 2006, 09:16 PM: Message edited by: Okanagan ]
Posts: 269 | From: 49th Parrallel | Registered: Jun 2006
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted June 18, 2006 08:46 PM
I think we have at least cleared the air a bit. I can respect another man's opinion and tolerate some degree of behavior that doesn't square with my own. Whatever the action, it may forever alter our relationship?
You know, several people have qualified the misdeed, as provoked or as an accidental killing, but some sort of reason, other than blasting a bird of prey just to kill something.
In the first place, I don't know anybody that I would be out hunting coyotes, and on a stand, they pop a hawk. Never happened to me and I would probably be taken aback by it if it did happen. That sounds strictly amateur hour, and I don't like to hunt with what Lance describes as a "slob hunter".
Would I make the guy walk? Places I hunt, that could be a very serious offense, on my part. You can't drive off and leave somebody in the desert, miles from pavement, so I wouldn't even consider it. I'd take the a$$hole home in the most direct route as existed with a minimum of conversation.
Would I call the cops on him? Maybe, if he shot a friggin' cow or livestock, but probably not for shooting a hawk, just for fun? I do not approve of it, but those things can cause you more trouble than satisfaction, and if he's a real jerk, best not to turn your back on him. But, if he shot a deer or a cow while in my truck, we would have more than a heart to heart talk. Maybe it is not logical, a law is a law, but I don't know? With a hawk, I seriously doubt that I would consider notifying authorities? This does not mean that I condone his actions, it just means that the man lacks a moral compass, and as I said before, I try not to be a Crusader on selective issues.
Lance, I would hunt with you, the reason being that you won't find a reason to rat me out so I'm not worried.
Good hunting. LB
Good hunting. LB
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 31472 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
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Cal Taylor
Knows what it's all about
Member # 199
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posted June 18, 2006 09:12 PM
Everybody decides what rules to follow, or not to. It doesn't matter if it is "law" or not. I don't shoot birds of any kind. Just never cared for it, legal or not. Most places it is illegal to shoot from a truck window, but in the case of a coyote I will occasionally make an exception, but on the other hand I would never do the same or let one of my hunters do the same when it comes to big game. Go figure? I regularly break the speed limit, I run at least 5 MPH over all the time, even when I'm going hunting. I occasionally roll thru a stopsign without completely stopping. I do all kinds of things that are illegal, but I also draw the line at many others. I make my kids wear seatbelts, but not really because it's a law. It really is up to the individual, and I doubt if there is ANYONE here that doesn't occasionally break the law, and I would suppose that there is NO ONE here that hasn't broken a law ever. It just depends on what laws are the most important to that particular person.
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Democracy is two wolves and a lamb deciding what to have for lunch.
Liberty is a well armed lamb contesting the vote.
FoxPro Field Staff Member
Posts: 1069 | From: Wyoming | Registered: May 2003
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Rich Higgins
unknown comic
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posted June 18, 2006 09:47 PM
I'm easy going and tolerant. I have never reported anothers misbehavior to authorities ever in my life. I have a time or two explained to a person the reason why I never want anything to do with them again. My attitudes and beliefs are pretty much the same as Az Hunter's and DAA's which means I have nothing new to add to this thread, EXCEPT, I spent a couple of days with Lance Homman calling coyotes in Co. last Nov.
It was a terrific and memorable experience and I am so looking forward to doing it again this Nov. I've bumped heads with a couple of other men on this board in the past and formed negative opinions about them. I am very grateful that I had the opportunity to meet them in person and discover how completely I had misjudged them.
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted June 18, 2006 11:12 PM
Oh yeah? Well cuts both ways, Rich. Higgins works a room, or a campfire like a pro.
But, if there is any way possible, I'll be there with you and Lance in November.....and Lance; I'll drive, if you don't mind?
Good hunting. LB
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 31472 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
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Rich Higgins
unknown comic
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posted June 19, 2006 07:11 AM
Leonard, you have to keep Nov. open so you can make that hunt. After all, you were personally invited by Tom Redmund.
Bring plenty of ammo. I saw lots of chicken hawks on the ranch.
Note to all F&G LEOs:
Just tweaking Lance a little because he is my friend and I know he can take a joke.
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NASA
Knows what it's all about
Member # 177
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posted June 19, 2006 10:16 AM
A "mistake" when hunting. Hmmmmmm. Would that be interpreted as "carelessness"? Maybe "recklessnes"? How about "blatent disregard"? OK, maybe just "unsafe practices"?
So, which one of these would you be willing to consider "excuseable"?
Now here's a little revelation about my character. If you and I were hunting together and you indulged in one of the above mentioned "mistakes", that would be our last hunt together.
I not really a hard-ass, just ask anyone who's hunted with me. But I cannot afford the risk of being around someone with poor judgement and a loaded gun.
[ June 19, 2006, 10:20 AM: Message edited by: NASA ]
Posts: 1168 | From: Typical White Person | Registered: Apr 2003
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted June 19, 2006 10:44 AM
All well and good, Tom.
Forgive the low blow, just for the sake of argument: I do recall that you have admitted to a serious "mistake" with a firearm that would cause many people to be careful in your presence. Would you want, expect, and deserve another chance? Most of your friends here would probably give it to you?
Good hunting. LB
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 31472 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
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NASA
Knows what it's all about
Member # 177
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posted June 19, 2006 11:46 AM
No, I wouldn't want or expect to be "given" a second chance. I would have to earn that privilege. That's the same quarter I'd give anyone else.
BUT!! Let's say we were out together and spot an eagle or even a red-tail sitting on a pole out 10 miles from the nearest paved road. You say "stop, I want to take the shot." We'd have a short discussion. If you insisted, I might give you the option of walking home if you take the shot. Either way, you'd have a hell of a time earning my respect back.
On the other hand, let's say we were pheasant hunting. Something flushes close from thick cover and you take the shot. As you squeeze off a snap shot you realize it's a Swainsons hawk. Bummer! Another 3 seconds and you'd have known it wasn't a game bird. Not intentional, but still a mistake. Not something I'd make you walk home over.
In the first scenario I see a character flaw and maybe a lack of true hunting "experience". Over time he might improve, but I don't want to wait around for him.
In the second scene, he's a little over anxious. Trying too hard? Trying to impress? Game hog? I'd give him the rest of the day to show me he's better than that. If nothing's changed by the end of the hunt, see scenario #1.
(edit) Leonard, I just read all the posts in this thread (after the fact) and I have to say I agree 100% with your response in your quote:
Whatever the action, it may forever alter our relationship?
post.
[ June 19, 2006, 12:03 PM: Message edited by: NASA ]
Posts: 1168 | From: Typical White Person | Registered: Apr 2003
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted June 19, 2006 12:15 PM
Okay. Very unusual circumstances, to my way of thinking? I can't imagine the need to blast something beyond the objections of a hunting partner? I think most of us here are a little more advanced and mature than your scenario allows. More like hunting with a total stranger, which is something I would be unlikely to do, in the first place.
On the other hand, if we cannot see eye to eye on some issue, important to either, (or both) of us, you needn't worry about making excuses for not hunting with me in the future. That invitation wouldn't be forthcoming. If there is anything I hate, it is somebody attempting to impose their will, or their standards on me. I'm not a Crusader, but nobody tells me what to do.
Good hunting. LB
edit: and that, friends, is why it is often difficult to find a good hunting partner, someone who you are on the same wavelength, in all respects.
[ June 19, 2006, 12:17 PM: Message edited by: Leonard ]
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 31472 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
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NASA
Knows what it's all about
Member # 177
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posted June 19, 2006 12:20 PM
Tim, I love 'ya man, but don't shoot those "white-tailed chicken hawks", lol. You may be refering to "white-tailed kites". These hawks are mousers. They "may" take a chick up to pinfeather size, but not if given a choice.
Your chicken operation is going to draw a lot of raptors. Only a very few are actually interested in the chickens themselves. The grain and mash you are feeding attracts mice, rats, and small birds. This is what the majority of the hawks are hanging around for. Like those kites, they're just hoping to bag a mouse or two.
Redtails, Harris, Ferruginous (rough-legged), and Red-shouldered hawks are probably the only ones interested in chickens themselves. But only a golden eagle would snatch a full grown chicken and fly off with it in it's talons. The others would have to eat half of it before they could lift it off the ground.
Posts: 1168 | From: Typical White Person | Registered: Apr 2003
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NASA
Knows what it's all about
Member # 177
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posted June 19, 2006 12:57 PM
quote:
I can't imagine the need to blast something beyond the objections of a hunting partner
OK, you're thinking in terms of a more "permanent" type of hunting partner, rather than hunting with someone "just for the day". I haven't had a real hunting partner for about 20 years now.
Because of these bulletin boards, I get to hunt with a lot of different people now days. Some are so-so, some I look forward to hunting with again, and some are like we've been talking about, the "hunters from hell". You can get a vague idea of what a person's like by talking to them, but you won't find out what he's really like until you get him into the field.
[ June 19, 2006, 01:01 PM: Message edited by: NASA ]
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