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Author
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Topic: How often do you call the same stand?
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Greenside
seems to know what he is talking about
Member # 10
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posted September 23, 2006 06:34 AM
Steve
quote:
I hunt a paticular area also until it does not produce.
How many times would you have to walk out skunked before you determine that it's not producing?
Dennis
Posts: 719 | From: IA | Registered: Jan 2003
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Rich Higgins
unknown comic
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posted September 23, 2006 07:17 AM
Hi Brad.
The GPS animations I referred to were downloaded from the GPS collars that were recovered from 26 coyotes on the INL study area by Dr Jaeger and his students. The collars had been worn by the coyotes for 6 weeks and were interrogated by the satellite every 5 minutes 24/7. After recovery the info in each collar was downloaded into a computer which then produced a timecoded animation on a map grid of each coyotes movements over that time period. Dr. Jaeger sent me a CD of those animations for the 3 days that I called coyotes with him at the INL. The results were mind-boggling to me. I re-evaluated what I believed to be "normal" behavior for pressured coyotes. That is what I meant by going back to square one.
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Rich Higgins
unknown comic
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posted September 23, 2006 07:46 AM
Dennis, I know you asked the question of Steve, but I'll toss you my 2cents if you don't mind.
I used to hunt coyotes in the Bolivar area where Steve lives. Very tough hunting compared to western states, plain and simple. All private land. I would sometimes have to drive for several hours to get to and from a farm where I had permission to call or had asked me to remove a coyote. That is why I would make three stands in a 40 acre wood patch over the course of an entire morning. And I would go back until I did get a coyote, regardless how many stands it took. Around my home I had permission on several good size ranches, but still may only make 5 or 6 stands in a day because of distances that I had to drive and walk to reach them. Since they were the only game in town I called them repeatedly even though some rarely produced.
Out here where I have virtually unlimited calling oportunities, I still have "honey holes" that have a history of giving up coyotes on a regular basis. As the season and pressure progress they will produce less often. Even if the stands are dry several times in a row I will still stop and call them as I pass them on my circuit of that area. I know that the area is attractive to coyotes and turn over (exploitation) is high and I will soon be calling to a coyote that can't resist checking out the sounds. There is a valley an hours drive to the east that used to be a really dynamite producer and good enough for an entire days calling. The last two times I was in there I did poorly. I haven't called there in two years because an hours drive in a slightly different direction will put me in an area that still produces well. So how many times I will walk out skunked before I determine it is not producing depends on it's proximity to consistant producers and whether it is worth my time to reach it.
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted September 23, 2006 07:53 AM
Higgins, those results (edit: GPS animations) are questionable, and I think you know why? You cannot diddle with a population of coyotes and document the results, and suggest that it applies to anything more than THAT population. All obvious factors, such as driving a certain vehicle in the restricted confines, chasing the animals with helicopters, capturing and tagging them. Shadowing them, the rest of the time. The coyotes are conditioned to their environment, and that particular environment is not representative. Maybe the studies are meaningful, and maybe not?
Good hunting. LB
[ September 23, 2006, 07:56 AM: Message edited by: Leonard ]
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 31450 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
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Brad Norman
Okie Dokie
Member # 234
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posted September 23, 2006 10:55 AM
Thanks Higgins. Did Dr. Jaeger or any of his students do a paper on the study? If so, I would like to read it.
Posts: 298 | From: Oklahoma | Registered: Aug 2003
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Lonny
PANTS ON THE GROUND
Member # 19
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posted September 23, 2006 12:17 PM
Rich, Have you read the behavioural study of coyote home range on the INEL site by John W. Laundre? If you have, how was it? Thanks
[ September 23, 2006, 12:17 PM: Message edited by: Lonny ]
Posts: 1209 | From: Lewiston, Idaho USA | Registered: Jan 2003
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stevecriner
UNKNOWN-before he was famous?
Member # 892
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posted September 23, 2006 01:36 PM
Dennis,
I guess im kinda short when i write because sometimes i dont even get what im trying to say.
I hunt an area, I guess you could say " heavily" until it dont produce as much. Ive got some spots that i hunt every week frequently and they produce and i have some spots that i dont hunt as much. I do have some spots that i will like Rich said." stop and call while driving by."
But i dont stop everytime i drive by thats for sure. Some spots i have witnessed just dry up. Some due to calling pressure,some to drive by shooting, and some due to Lahma's.(farmers answer to coyotes)
It dont take me long of being skunked to leave it alone because i figure i will just overhunt another area and by the time i wear somthing else out it will be ready again. Its all about the area im in. Private land almost exclusivly!
Anyone. If im not viewing this correctly please chime in. Im all about getting better at calling coyotes.
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"I love coyotes and put up with dogs....My neighbor has a slew of them."
Posts: 321 | From: missouri | Registered: Jul 2006
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Andy L
HI, I'M THE NEW MODERATOR OF THE CENTRAL MISSOURI FORUM, PULL MY FINGER!
Member # 642
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posted September 23, 2006 02:27 PM
quote:
Ive called the same area the same day and been sucessful and many night after stands that have been sucessful.
Steve, I guess I dont get the meaning of this statement. Are you hunting at night too? If so, please let me know how your getting away with it. I have wanted to for a long time....
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Andy
Posts: 2645 | From: Central Missouri | Registered: Apr 2005
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R.Shaw
Peanut Butter Man, da da da da DAH!
Member # 73
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posted September 23, 2006 02:37 PM
Andy, I think Steve means the day after or just the very next day.
Night calling is possible in MO. Full moon, snow cover, and hand calls only.
Randy
Posts: 545 | From: Nebraska | Registered: Jan 2003
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Andy L
HI, I'M THE NEW MODERATOR OF THE CENTRAL MISSOURI FORUM, PULL MY FINGER!
Member # 642
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posted September 23, 2006 02:52 PM
Yeah, Ive done that Randy. Just how often do you get a moonlit night with a snow on in MO? Usually can count them on one hand, in a good year. The last couple years, none..... You can bet your bottom dollar where I am found when the conditions are right though. ![[Wink]](wink.gif)
I used to call fox at night when I was a kid. Actually didnt know you could call during the day. I knew the older guys that were taking me were braking the law, but I didnt know any better. It was productive, very productive. Thats why I was asking Steve if I was missing something.
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Andy
Posts: 2645 | From: Central Missouri | Registered: Apr 2005
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stevecriner
UNKNOWN-before he was famous?
Member # 892
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posted September 24, 2006 04:22 AM
Sometimes due to my work i have to hunt evenings. I should of said the evening after. No night hunting here unless the snows on.
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"I love coyotes and put up with dogs....My neighbor has a slew of them."
Posts: 321 | From: missouri | Registered: Jul 2006
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Rich Higgins
unknown comic
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posted September 24, 2006 08:14 AM
quote:
Higgins, those results (edit: GPS animations) are questionable, and I think you know why? You cannot diddle with a population of coyotes and document the results, and suggest that it applies to anything more than THAT population.
Leonard, EVERY opinion and deduction about coyotes is questionable.
However, I do believe that the results of some studies can explain the behavior of other coyotes in other areas. The GPS animations revealed the reactions of PRESSURED coyotes to howls and distress calls in Idaho. You observed the very same behavior in PRESSURED coyotes in Kansas and Colorado. I see it weekly in Az.
I give that behavior a lot of thought and adapt my stand selection and calling technique to accomodate. In some small measure it is working out for us. Tyler and partner set up and called accordingly two weeks ago and and just about tripled the best results of their competition. A past Top Caller of the Year winner hunted the same area as Tyler and using his traditional techniques called in nothing over the two day hunt. (as an aside, the sixty some year old gentleman approached twenty year old Tyler and asked to go calling with him. He said he would like Tyler to teach him how to call coyotes. He said he was serious. lol I would have done the same.)
I am convinced that I see (actually don't see) the very same behavior in all PRESSURED coyotes in every area and every state that I call in and so does every other caller as the season progresses. The animations reveal what we can only occassionally see with our own eyes in wide open country and will never see in heavy cover.
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Tim Behle
Administrator MacNeal Sector
Member # 209
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posted September 24, 2006 10:45 AM
Rich,
You seem to be assuming that most people have heard the first part of that conversation, instead of walking into the middle or end of it.
What behavior is it that you give a lot of thought to, and how do you set up accordingly?
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Personally, I carry a gun because I'm too young to die and too old to take
an ass kickin'.
Posts: 3160 | From: Five Miles East of Vic, AZ | Registered: Jun 2003
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Rich Higgins
unknown comic
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posted September 24, 2006 11:13 AM
Tim, I was referring to Leonard's last post, 8 posts up.
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Tim Behle
Administrator MacNeal Sector
Member # 209
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posted September 24, 2006 12:49 PM
So if you were going on a two day hunt, and you were going to spend one day in an area that has light to moderate hunting pressure, how would you differ your technique to the second area, which you know has heavy pressure from hunters?
From looking at the GPS on those collared coyotes, how did those coyotes in the study respond to calls? Did they come out into the open? Did they circle? How close did they get to the caller, did they come in to investigate later?
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Personally, I carry a gun because I'm too young to die and too old to take
an ass kickin'.
Posts: 3160 | From: Five Miles East of Vic, AZ | Registered: Jun 2003
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NASA
Knows what it's all about
Member # 177
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posted September 24, 2006 02:31 PM
Rich, did you also keep an activity chart of yourown activities and movements for your 3 days in the field? I would think you'd need your timing data to match up with the GPS timing data to establish which activities prompted which response(s). If you have that coordinated data I believe you have the root data for another valuable instructional video.
As you've already pointed out, this is not how coyotes always respond, but rather how they are capable of responding in a given situation. Good stuff, and it's already paying off for Tyler.
Posts: 1168 | From: Typical White Person | Registered: Apr 2003
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Rich Higgins
unknown comic
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posted September 24, 2006 09:15 PM
[/QUOTE] So if you were going on a two day hunt, and you were going to spend one day in an area that has light to moderate hunting pressure, how would you differ your technique to the second area, which you know has heavy pressure from hunters?[/QUOTE]
Tim, we would conduct the stands in the first area as we always have, pretty much the way you do, except we pay close attention to the wind and set up on it.
The second area would be a little slower. We would set up along washes and ridges and heavy cover that a coyote can use to get downwind of the caller. The caller positions himself on the upwind side of the cover/wash/ and the shooter positions himself so that he has an elevated view down into the cover/wash straight downwind from the caller. Usually the shooter is out of sight of the caller and as much as 100 yards and even more from the caller. We have set up on ladders looking down into washes with only a 4 or 5 foot open area. You have to stay alert for long periods in order to stop a coyote in that short space. The stands are much longer also since a coyote will sneak in like a cat.
[/QUOTE] From looking at the GPS on those collared coyotes, how did those coyotes in the study respond to calls? Did they come out into the open? Did they circle? How close did they get to the caller, did they come in to investigate later? [/QUOTE]
THe first stand of the first day two coyotes , an alpha male and an alpha female came to the call. The male came straight in across a meadow. He came close enough to step on my left boot. The female came in from a different direction and remained hidden until she was within feet of me. The pics that I have posted of the collared coyote was that male. He also is shown in the video UC&P.
All of the other coyotes immediately ran toward the downwind as soon as they heard the call of howls. They used the cover and never exposed themselves. One female ran at top speed 3/4 of a mile to get downwind where she remained until we ended the stand. She then continued at top speed until she made a complete 360 from her den around us and back to her den again, all at top speed for a total distance of about 2 1/2 miles. I set up the stands upwind from the largest meadows in close proximity to the coyotes location. They ran as far as they had to back in heavy cover, to get downwind where they would remain until the stand was over. One alpha male followed the truck as we left his territory and ffollowed us across the adjacent territory and into the third. The biologists were surprised that he would cross another packs territory in the middle of the day just to keep tabs on us.
The coyotes came in several hours later and investigated the call site. I used mist on each stand and sprayed the bushes where I sat. That would keep their attention for awhile.
NASA, we each kept complete notes of each stand. At the start of each stand Mike Ebbinger took a GPS fix and a second one at the conclusion for a timecode. The animations depict four color codes for the lines . Red lines are alpha males, blue are alpha females, white are beta males ( No beta females responded) and black are we humans.
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Rick Anderson
PAKMAN
Member # 973
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posted October 02, 2006 01:17 AM
Rich,
You've written some of the best stuff I have read on the internet as far as call setups. In AZ would you do the same as you state in the desert; in the forested areas, and the open grassland areas? How would you setup for downwind in grasslands with no thick cover available?
Some areas we call that get alot of pressure we will leave a shooter at the setup, especially if there is barking, after the call. The rest of us will go to the truck and leave. We will come back in 15 minutes or so. Many times the shooter will get shots at coyotes coming around checking things out. I feel they know what was going on but had to check it out after they saw us leave. Have you ever tried this?
Thanks for all the great information,
Rick
Posts: 5 | From: Arizona, Page, Coolidge, Prescott | Registered: Oct 2006
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Rich Higgins
unknown comic
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posted October 02, 2006 08:08 AM
[QUOTE] Rich,
In AZ would you do the same as you state in the desert; in the forested areas, and the open grassland areas?
Sure, Rick. I always pay close attention to wind and cover and terrain contour that can hide a coyote's approach, regardless. Of course at times coyotes come running in without regard to either, but that is becoming less frequent every year.
How would you setup for downwind in grasslands with no thick cover available?
I set the camera or rifle facing the direction that I expect the coyote to approach from, but I always keep an eye on downwind. If there is a break or contour downwind that the coyotes can use to approach unseen we will set a shooter on the back side of that. I use a net and and in flat areas with little or no cover I will lie prone with the net over me. A net will let me become a rock or bush or something unknown that is not an immediate source of danger. Here is a good example.
Tyler took that pic of me videoing Brent Rueb on a hunt in Kansas last year. You don't have to disappear. You just can't be human.(I like cows and other stock. Great confidence boosting visuals for the coyotes)
Some areas we call that get alot of pressure we will leave a shooter at the setup, especially if there is barking, after the call. The rest of us will go to the truck and leave. We will come back in 15 minutes or so. Many times the shooter will get shots at coyotes coming around checking things out. I feel they know what was going on but had to check it out after they saw us leave. Have you ever tried this?
Rick we do use that technique when we have the time. I've posted in the past here that in MO in heavy cover I would make a short noisy stand, howls and distress, squirt the place down with mist and then leave, moving to a distant, elevated area with my 22-250 AI. They will come in spend a lot of time investigating the smells and hiking their leg on every bush the mist touches. Many times I would just sit quietly for as much as an hour enjoying being outside, listening to the birds and squirrels fussing at a coyote talking it's time sneaking in to investigate.
I also posted pics on this board from a video that I taped of a short stand where I set a camera up covering me and the stand location. I howled and did some prey distress and left with the camera running until the tape ran out. Later at home I ran the tape and captured stills of the three coyotes that came in and investigated at, I believe , 13 minutes, 19 minutes and 22 minutes after I left.
I didn't post this but later while watching the clip again I saw two coyotes that came in within 10- 15 feet of me, on the other side of the bush I was tucked into and I never saw them. Have to wonder how often that happens?
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Rich
2,000th post PAKMAN
Member # 112
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posted October 02, 2006 04:36 PM
Rich Higgins,
Very good information you have posted in this thread. I have been there and done that enough times to know that you are speaking the truth here.
Hey Leonard,
Do you have a way to make this thread a sticky? It would be a shame to allow this much good information to get lost.
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If you call the coyotes in close, you won't NEED a high dollar range finder.
Posts: 2854 | From: Iowa | Registered: Feb 2003
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stevecriner
UNKNOWN-before he was famous?
Member # 892
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posted October 02, 2006 07:43 PM
quote:
Rick we do use that technique when we have the time.
I see. But do you think the coyote is waiting for the intruder to leave or is just takeing longer to come in. Like maybe they are hearing sounds indicating the exit of hunters. This is a very unique tactic i am intrested in ,Rich. We have spoken on the phone about me " loving to call over hunted coyotes". Its kinda what im after. This might just be an intresting stand to get on camera for sure. And misting? Is this a must in this situation..... Maybe Mist and then the shooter move a few yards in direct view of the abandoned stand for a clear shot? I can see were there could be many variables to this tactic. Talk more about this please.
I got to get some Mist"
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"I love coyotes and put up with dogs....My neighbor has a slew of them."
Posts: 321 | From: missouri | Registered: Jul 2006
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted October 02, 2006 09:52 PM
Steve, there are no hard answers, but I have seen a coyote come in, after hanging up for a long period of time often enough, that I consider it to be a very predictable behavior. That is not to say it is the most common behavior, but it is rather routine, if you get into the right position to observe it.
For me, there are others to hunt, so I only see it almost by accident, even with cats. In other words, I may pick up and leave a stand, go down the road to another stand, turn around and ambush a coyote inspecting the exact spot where I made the previous stand. They may have seen you leave, decide the coast is clear, but never suspect that you may return in thirty minutes, or so? This is quite common in Nevada, because most mountain roads wind up at a mine and there is nothing else to do but turn around and go back down. I have killed many bobcat standing in the road on the way down 30-60 minutes after making a stand in the same spot. I have even killed badgers checking things out, under the same conditions. This is old news. It is one of the things that you can expect when you pull up stakes, if circumstances are favorable. Is it a better solution than just making a stand in a different place? That's up to you to decide. But be aware of it, because it will happen on a certain percentage of stands. The majority take a powder, but a significant number of animals will deliberately approach a stand where they know you were and they can easily catch your scent. My opinion is that they see you leave and realize that the coast is clear.
Good hunting. LB
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
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Andy L
HI, I'M THE NEW MODERATOR OF THE CENTRAL MISSOURI FORUM, PULL MY FINGER!
Member # 642
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posted October 02, 2006 10:56 PM
Rich, thats good stuff. Thanks.
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Andy
Posts: 2645 | From: Central Missouri | Registered: Apr 2005
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stevecriner
UNKNOWN-before he was famous?
Member # 892
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posted October 03, 2006 07:04 PM
Yes i know that there are probably more coyotes to hunt and i agree wih you just hunting others. I didnt realize that a coyote would do this and it intrigues me. Ive heard so many times that if a coyote see you your done, but this brings a new light," He might just be getting started". This just might be something that i might want to spend time to witness and even film as Rich did. There are so many things to learn. And its kinda neat that they do this routinly
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"I love coyotes and put up with dogs....My neighbor has a slew of them."
Posts: 321 | From: missouri | Registered: Jul 2006
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Rick Anderson
PAKMAN
Member # 973
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posted October 03, 2006 08:31 PM
Steve,
This behavior was first observed by me over 30 years ago. One stand we would always call the coyotes would start barking as soon as we would start calling. This was when I was not very tuned into their behavior and when they started barking we realized we were busted and would leave. It was a 1/4 hike uphill back to the truck and one time a looked back and saw a coyote moving towards our setup and thats why we started leaving a hunter there after the call ended.
Looking back I think our success was on young dogs and the older ones always kept away.
Mr. Higgins if you read this the area was Peeples Valley just south of Skull Valley. This area produces alot of bobcats and coyotes for us.
Rick
Posts: 5 | From: Arizona, Page, Coolidge, Prescott | Registered: Oct 2006
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