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Author
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Topic: What are the odd's
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted February 28, 2007 12:15 PM
Maybe so, Higgins?
But, there are any number of rediculous combos involving large female dogs and small males. Are they concerned about what the neighbors will think, when desperate? Cats are smart enough to lie down when doing the Mambo. Hey! Think about your own real life experiences. Were you proud of every one? Did you ever push a long legged woman up against a wall and then realize the problem? What did you do about it?
Anyway, scientific guessing is a fact of life, isn't it? Very funny! I agree, Theberge's opinion is much more important than mine. Yeah, right!
Good hunting. LB
edit: would you please email me your phone number? Since I lost my cell phone, I'm a little handicapped.
[ February 28, 2007, 12:16 PM: Message edited by: Leonard ]
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 31467 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
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UTcaller
NEVADA NIGHT FIGHTER
Member # 8
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posted February 28, 2007 01:04 PM
Sly,
Not to keep whipping a dead coyote over and over again.BUT,You bring up a very good point.
Sly:I have heard most of the sound bites that are floating around the internet and I have yet to hear one that sounds like what I whitnessed.
I hear quite a few people saying they're having incredible success with this "new Sound"(said estus chirp) yet no one seems to be able to agree what the sound should sound like.That raises RED FLAGS right there, if we as humans can't agree on what it should sound like, how in the HELL do you expect me to believe that you know what a coyote thinks the sound means.LOL
Bottom line:It might work but you really don't know why it works.It could be sex or it could be food,or maybe curiosity,hell maybe all three.
Don't worry I'm done,no more rantings from me.
Good Hunting Chad
Posts: 1614 | From: Utah | Registered: Jan 2003
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slydog
Knows what it's all about
Member # 389
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posted February 28, 2007 01:32 PM
As many of you know I build custom calls, Aftre working with "this sound" for over a year and comming up with a tone board that I feel produces that I know to be the "Estres Chirp", I hit the mark with a howler that hits the notes that I wanted. Now comes nameing it, This has been hard as there has been so much debate over the word "Estres", with much thought and at first nameing it "Lady D.I.E." I changed my mind and with much delight came up with a name that totaly depicts the essencs of the sound made by a female coyote.
I call it "Wileys Heat Peep" so let me know what you think.........
sly
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Smote the Yote with a slydog custom call
Posts: 179 | From: SW Idaho | Registered: Aug 2004
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted February 28, 2007 01:47 PM
Hell, there are all kinds of possibilities...
Huber's Folly
Scotts' problem
Wiley E's "We don't know?"
Extreme nonprofessional sound device
Scott's Female Vibratory Organ
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 31467 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
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Melvin
Knows what it's all about
Member # 634
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posted February 28, 2007 03:14 PM
Naw,that sounds like your giving credit to where credit is not due. ![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
Posts: 661 | From: PA. | Registered: Apr 2005
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JD
HONORARY OKIE .... and Tim's at fault!
Member # 768
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posted February 28, 2007 03:56 PM
To go along with what Vic said in "one" of these threads, I think you should call it "the penile enticer" or maybe "the red rocket yipper"
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Jason
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What do Obama & TA17Rem have in common........both are clueless asshats!!!
Posts: 1456 | From: NE. | Registered: Dec 2005
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Tim Behle
Administrator MacNeal Sector
Member # 209
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posted February 28, 2007 06:22 PM
How about "The pocket Rocket Peerper"?
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Personally, I carry a gun because I'm too young to die and too old to take
an ass kickin'.
Posts: 3160 | From: Five Miles East of Vic, AZ | Registered: Jun 2003
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Rich
2,000th post PAKMAN
Member # 112
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posted February 28, 2007 06:44 PM
New Breakthrough! Hot off the press! The hot new Slydog Yiper for yippers!
Yip em right in with the Slydog yiper--
Yip on in with yipes.
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If you call the coyotes in close, you won't NEED a high dollar range finder.
Posts: 2854 | From: Iowa | Registered: Feb 2003
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2dogs
Knows what it's all about
Member # 649
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posted February 28, 2007 07:38 PM
[ March 26, 2007, 06:54 PM: Message edited by: 2dogs ]
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted February 28, 2007 07:43 PM
I can't tell what that is? Indistinct blob. But I have seen wolf tracks. They are more than twice as large as coyote, maybe four times?
Good hunting. LB
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 31467 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
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2dogs
Knows what it's all about
Member # 649
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posted February 28, 2007 07:49 PM
[ March 26, 2007, 06:54 PM: Message edited by: 2dogs ]
Posts: 1034 | From: central Iowa | Registered: Apr 2005
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2dogs
Knows what it's all about
Member # 649
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posted February 28, 2007 07:59 PM
[ March 26, 2007, 06:54 PM: Message edited by: 2dogs ]
Posts: 1034 | From: central Iowa | Registered: Apr 2005
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Melvin
Knows what it's all about
Member # 634
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posted February 28, 2007 08:01 PM
2dogs,i strained my eyes to see that! Whatever it is,it don't look any bigger than a nit on a nats ass.
Posts: 661 | From: PA. | Registered: Apr 2005
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Wiley E
Knows what it's all about
Member # 108
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posted February 28, 2007 08:37 PM
quote:
RH: "Do you believe J.R. Alcorn was an "original concept thinker" and if so do you regard him with contempt also?"
I don't know J.R. Alcorn so can't comment on that Rich.
I am not critical of anyone stepping outside of the normal realm of "mindless traditionalism" in search of new sounds. If I was, I wouldn't have bought a WT would I? Once again, actions speak louder than words.
I am only critical of the theories that are derived from stepping outside this realm that defy what I have seen and what I have learned.
Ironically, the WT holds some of the most unique and innovative sounds out there and I haven't seen that they work any better than what I have been using. Keep in mind that I get to observe coyotes from beginning to end. You can't make that claim in your habitat. You get to see them standing there once they arrive. I get to see what reels them in BUT MORE IMPORTANTLY, WHAT DOESN'T. I consider my more open situation advantagious to observing the reaction of coyotes to various sounds.
On this topic we have 2 areas of speculation.
#1 Are we duplicating the sound we want to duplicate to the point that a coyote recognizes the duplication as it was intended?
That's a big leap of faith.
A coyote that hears someone's imitation of an "estrous chirp" might easily mistake it for something else which is more attractive.
#2 Does the coyote respond because he recognizes this exact duplication or because it sounds close to something else that's attractive.
That's an even bigger leap of faith.
quote:
RH: "Because of the social dynamics involved in hybridization among wolves and coyotes biologists believe that the the most common match up would be a female coyote and a male wolf. Also I think it was Theberge that said no self respecting wolf bitch would stand still for a scrawny little coyote."
So my common sense question to these biologists is, WHERE'S THE HYBRIDS????
quote:
Sly: "You insult people and then defend yourself with big words and back it with your cridentials, turn peoples words around and try to change their meanings to fit into your one way thinking."
In this case, I insult SOME people by challenging their theories as to why coyotes respond to certain sounds. So be it!
I really get tired of talking about the shape of the table as opposed to what's been brought to the table.
In regards to "turning people's words around" and "trying to change their meanings", Sly, that is utter nonsense.
If you really believe that, BACK IT UP! Bring the quote and show everyone where I have "turned words around" or "changed their meanings". The posts are all still there.
Observe........
I respond to direct quotes. Pretty difficult to take a statement out of context when you respond directly to an exact statement which is precisely why I do it.
quote:
Sly: "This is what I know to be fact: In the 16 months that I have been aware of this sound, I have seen this sound used by a coyote 1 time, it was in fact a female. I have not witnessed a male make this sound, Fact. The female that made this sound evoked a responce from 2 different coyotes that Did fight when they approached this female,Fact. This sound was made by a female in March, fact. This female did show signs of being in heat,Fact.
The responces I've had from using this sound have produced 32 alpha males,9 alpha females, fact.(just coyotes killed) The responces from this sound have, not once evoked a responce from a SINGLE coyote, Fact. This sound has evoked responce from coyotes all times of year, Fact. This sound works on high pressured coyote populations, Fact. The sound that I'm using is different from a "Excited Yip", fact.( I do and can tell the difference) This sound works on coyotes that have made a positive ID on me and are leaving the country, FACT."
Nobody's arguing the response.
YOU BELIEVE the sound that you are using is different from an "excited yip" but you don't know what the coyotes think and that's my point.
quote:
Sly: "At this time no one does..."
Exactly! So why would you take offense if someone disagrees with your theory?
First you admit that you don't know why they respond then you suggest that it's because of sex. I agree with you when you say you don't know why they respond. I disagree with you when you say it's for sex.
quote:
Sly: "So you don't agree, thats fine but don't belittle my observations and opinions to make yourself look good or justify your opinion."
Challenging a theory has nothing to do with making anyone look good or anyone look bad. It has to do with sorting what can be proven from what can't be proven.
quote:
Sly: "I may not agree with your opinion but I respect it and weather you agree with me or not I think you should respect my opinion also."
I do respect your opinion on not knowing why they respond. I just happen to disagree with your theory that they respond for sex.
The only problem I have with you at this very minute Sly is your accusation that I "turn people's words around" and "change their meaning".
I'd like you to back that accusation with an actual quote.
Sly shared a recent calling situation with me. In that situation, coyotes were coming into a calving pen. He claims to have stopped their departure with this miracle sound. Think about it. First off, a coyote is not a welcome guest in a calving pen and they know it (CONDITIONED RESPONSE TO HUMANS) and this is following a rifle shot (ANOTHER CONDITIONED RESPONSE). I assume he isn't using a supressor. I don't believe a coyote is going to stop in that situation for sex because I've never seen it or heard anyone else that has seen it. In that situation, I think an excited sound of a coyote involved in killing is going to have a lot more appeal. I've SEEN that and I know others that have SEEN that. Once they were in the kill mode, they threw caution to the wind. I doubt sex will elicit that same response.
Seriously Leonard, you are a smart guy, tell me what you think.
Do you believe a coyote is going to stop and return to a situation like this for sex?
quote:
Melvin: "Naw,that sounds like your giving credit to where credit is not due."
I agree Melvin! Thank you!
quote:
Chad: "if we as humans can't agree on what it should sound like, how in the HELL do you expect me to believe that you know what a coyote thinks the sound means"
EXACTLY!
The entire debate is summed up in a single sentence.
~SH~
[ February 28, 2007, 08:40 PM: Message edited by: Wiley E ]
Posts: 853 | From: Kadoka, S.D | Registered: Feb 2003
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TA17Rem
Hello, I'm the legendary Tim Anderson, Field Marshall, Southern Minneesota Sector
Member # 794
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posted February 28, 2007 10:45 PM
Well coyotes and wolves inter breed? Here is what i have to say on this subject. I was in S.D. on a hunting trip 5-6 years ago and i stopped at the D.N.R head quarters to pic up a lic. While i was there a Warden asked if i would like to see something different, i said sure. The warden took me back to a large walk in freezer and this is what i saw. The animal was hanging from its hind legs with the nose almost toucheing the floor and its back feet touching the ceiling. I figure the ceiling height was 7-8 feet, but not sure.
This animal was big like a Minn. timber wolf,its fur looked like a coyote, its tail looked like a coyote, as i looked at it i said to the warden its a coyote on steroids or someone just shot a timber wolf. The warden laughed and said i was right on both answers. I asked him to please explane.
There is a rancher that raises timber wolf hybreds and and they are kept in kennels except one it either runs loose in the yard or its was on a chain, not sure on that part.. Anyway either his hybred got breed by a coyote or it breed a coyote, not sure on this part. Anyway there are eight pups born and they were running loose in the area that i hunt, which was 15-30 miles from this ranch. A hunter was in the same area that i call in and he called in this Hybred and killed it. The hunter did'nt know what he had so he took it in to the D.N.R. and they kept it so they could run a D.N.A test on it. The test came back and they found that it was part coyote and part Hybred wolf. They just so happen to know that one of the ranchers had Hybred wolves so they went to talk with him and now you have it. I will send them a E-mail and see if i can get them to send me some pic's. From what i gathered they were going to give the animal back to the hunter or keep it if he did not want it and have it mounted for display in there headquarters. I will check into it...
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What if I told you, the left wing and right wing both belong to same bird!
Posts: 5070 | From: S.D. | Registered: Jan 2006
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted February 28, 2007 11:26 PM
quote:
Seriously Leonard, you are a smart guy, tell me what you think. Wiley E
You want me to be the judge of that event? From the standpoint of truth, I'm not a "lie detector"; so I will assume this is the honest account of an eye witness?
Well, okay, I'll offer my opinion as a non professional recreational predator hunter, and leave my expertise, confured by virtue of owning a message board, behind.
(sound the trumpets, please)
OPINION Seems unlikely? OPINION
caveat: we all know that a coyote can do some peculiar and surprising things, from time to time.
Good hunting. LB
[ February 28, 2007, 11:28 PM: Message edited by: Leonard ]
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 31467 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
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TA17Rem
Hello, I'm the legendary Tim Anderson, Field Marshall, Southern Minneesota Sector
Member # 794
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posted February 28, 2007 11:28 PM
On the subject of different sounds used for calling coyotes:
I do all of my calling north of where Scott H. lives, this area is wide open and you can see for quit aways in most directions. Most of the time when a coyote is called in i can see him for a long ways off. Like Scott H also said you can see the coyote and you can learn from him on what sounds work and what does'nt. It is a great area to learn about how the coyote responds compared to where most of you guys live.
When i first started calling out there i had a electric call and 75-100 cassetts to use with all the different sounds you could think of. I was in search of the magic sound that would bring coyotes running in from all directions. From all the sounds i had in my library i found that only a half a dozen would do the job most of the time.
Some of the sounds that i use will bring the coyote in when the wind blows hard, some of them well bring the coyote in on a dead run. A few sounds i have to leave on continues to keep them comeing. If i shut the unit off the coyote would stop, if i left it on they would also come in on a dead run. When i started calling coyotes there was nobody to teach me, i had to learn on my own and it took me a long time. I only called coyotes two-three weeks out of a year and from the area i called in i was able to learn alot from the coyote. I watched his body posture, how they came in, and how they reacted to different sounds and so on. I could tell if there was more than one coyote, if they have been called before and so on.
I could tell how far the sound was reaching from the electric caller, i have called them up wind , down wind, cross wind. For me i would look at the lay of the land and i could come pretty close to how i wanted the coyote to come in and i new how i could get the stand to work for me.
I have been busted a few times but i learned from these mistakes. I have a general idea of how Scott sets up and why. he dose'nt like to leave anything to chance, uses wind in his favor, sun at his back so coyote is blinded from seeing him, does alot of walking to reduce the chance of a coyote from seeing him drive in. If i lived there and could hunt as much as i could i would do the same, but i only have 5-6 days so i cheat a little and have been able to get my stands to work in my favor. My main goal is to get in as many stands as i possibly can in five days. As i see it its a numbers game, if i have 1 coyote show out of every four stands and i make 12 stands, thats three coyotes. Anyway back to the number of different sounds you can use, i think most of them are a waste of time, unless you have a high population area and you can get in close, alot of sounds don't carry very far and that is one of the reason why i feel they don't work very well. I think i could go on for days on this subject so i better stop now...
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What if I told you, the left wing and right wing both belong to same bird!
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2dogs
Knows what it's all about
Member # 649
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posted March 01, 2007 04:38 AM
[ March 26, 2007, 06:54 PM: Message edited by: 2dogs ]
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Cal Taylor
Knows what it's all about
Member # 199
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posted March 01, 2007 06:48 AM
As most of you know, I have a coyote in the yard. If the kids are out playing or the coyotes favorite playmate, the corgi, and the coyote wants out of its kennel to join in, that coyote will make all kinds of chirps and whines. Little bird chirps and lots of them. I guess maybe I should be recording them? HMMM! Never thought of that!
Maybe I could record them and put them on my FoxPro!
LOL! I'm going to call them "The coyote wants to play with the kids" whines! And I have video footage of it so that no one can challenge the name of my new sound. ![[Wink]](wink.gif)
[ March 01, 2007, 06:49 AM: Message edited by: Cal Taylor ]
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Democracy is two wolves and a lamb deciding what to have for lunch.
Liberty is a well armed lamb contesting the vote.
FoxPro Field Staff Member
Posts: 1069 | From: Wyoming | Registered: May 2003
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Wiley E
Knows what it's all about
Member # 108
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posted March 01, 2007 07:34 AM
Record it Cal!
Then it can be compared to other sounds and see if the coyote's react any different to it.
GREAT IDEA!
~SH~
Posts: 853 | From: Kadoka, S.D | Registered: Feb 2003
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Melvin
Knows what it's all about
Member # 634
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posted March 01, 2007 09:09 AM
Cal,cut the chirps in a sequence of four or five,then try them on a stand.You may be surprised at the results.
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slydog
Knows what it's all about
Member # 389
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posted March 01, 2007 09:41 AM
Scott,
You can pull a sentence from a paragraph and change the meaning. This is easly done for some and you are good at it. I'm not that good at pulling words or sentences from paragraphs and using them against the writer. I read the hole thing and try to find the meaning in its context.
Example:
IE: the house was red, in the late summer twilight. The true color is mushroom.
when pulled out of context:
"You told us "The house was red" now you say its mushroom, what color is it.
Its a play on words.
I know what an "Excited Yip" sounds like Scott, I also know what this "Estrus Chirp" sounds like. I have used the "Excited Yip" for years and have found it to be successful a good bit of the time. This "Chirp" has done very well compaired to any other sound I know, with exception of the old stand by "Lip squeek". its hard to beat a sound that you have faith in.
Now, I don't know if the coyote will condition to this sound as they do to the rabbit and the howling. The verdict isn't in on that yet. Again time will tell.
SH~: "In this case, I insult SOME people by challenging their theories as to why coyotes respond to certain sounds."
You don't get it Scott, its not the challenging of the theorie that is insulting its the pissy little medafors that you use.IE: "original concept thinkers" and "It's not like the "original concept seekers" don't have their pom pom wavers","your "SO CALLED" estrous chirp", " "QUEST FOR ORIGINALITY" and the way you say it,makes me think that you are trying to imply that I'm stupid. That is an insult directed to me and anyone who don't agree with you.
Thats what I take issue with Scott, even after we agree to disagree you come back and poke little jabs at me and a few others.
SH~: Exactly! So why would you take offense if someone disagrees with your theory?
I don't take offence to your disagreing with my theory. I take offence to your poking fun at it all the time, thats all I'm saying.
SH~: It has to do with sorting what can be proven from what can't be proven.
Problem is Scott, you can't prove that you are right anymore than I can (at this time)prove I am.
SH~: Do you believe a coyote is going to stop and return to a situation like this for sex?
Here again you are using my words OUT of CONTEXT.
BTW did you tell LB that the coyote that came back to the sound was a 30# female and BTW they were not killing when I shot either one of them nor were they eating.
Scott I have said all along that I think its sex and territorial but more importantly I have said I also belive it to be a triggering sound. ( Something that they can't ignor ) Primevil drive type of thing.
My finger hurts.
sly
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Smote the Yote with a slydog custom call
Posts: 179 | From: SW Idaho | Registered: Aug 2004
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varmit hunter
Knows what it's all about
Member # 37
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posted March 01, 2007 09:57 AM
I have to wonder just how much crap the guy that invented the wheel had to put up with. Why do you call it the wheel?. What do you mean it rolls?. Do you have any scientific proof what roll means?. If it rolls in March will it roll in September?. Does it roll up hill and down hill?. My cousin slipped on the side of a mountain and rolled off a cliff, was he a wheel?.What does that squeak it's making mean. Will Mastodons come to that sound?.
"AND THE BEAT GOES ON"
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Make them pay for the wind.
Posts: 932 | From: Orange,TX | Registered: Jan 2003
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted March 01, 2007 10:45 AM
Yeah, Ronnie. Point well taken.
But, it keeps a few of us from getting busted up in some Honky Tonk on a Saturday night, and it's relatively harmless entertainment. Not evil intent, like that vicious little pipsqueak, Robb the Troll.
However, you have been a perfect gentleman in all of this dialogue. Good on you.
CAL, I do think it's a heck of a good idea to record the sounds of that pup coyote wanting out to play. How come you never thought of it before?
Good hunting. LB
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 31467 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
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UTcaller
NEVADA NIGHT FIGHTER
Member # 8
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posted March 01, 2007 10:56 AM
I know,I know I said I was done,but I just can't help myself.
Sly,
I don't even think YOU can call it a theory yet.You yourself said that in 37 years of calling you have heard this sound exactly ONCE by a live coyote.To base a theory(Sex/territorial)on ONE experience is a JOKE!!!Bottom Line.
So if you want to believe you've got it all figured out on why the coyote is responding that's your choice,but for someone like me that has half as many years of coyote calling/howling experience(21)as you do,I see it for what it is, SPECULATIVE BULLSH**T.Good Hunting Chad
Like I said in my last post,you can't even get two people to agree what the "Estrus Chirp" should sound like.
[ March 01, 2007, 12:04 PM: Message edited by: UTcaller ]
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