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Author
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Topic: MANGE!!!!!!
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coyote whacker
Knows what it's all about
Member # 639
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posted September 24, 2008 12:08 PM
The only thing with this moist stuff is how dry is the air in winter? How are these mites living in a den hole at below freezing temps and low humidity for 2 months +? I have a hard time with that? These mites can last 90+ days in a dry hole with no host? Their life cycle is not long and how do young mites survuve without a host?
The 90 days is even short, when you consider these coyotes use those holes from Mid- April to July, then they abandon them so they sit ideal from August which runs between 90-110 degrees until End of March into april the following year? Then say if those mange coyotes are still alive or even a new group moves into that same hole those mites are active to pass that on? Are there any studies showing this ability?
Randy R you should have blood tested a few of those that showed bred but no pup's around? Or those crappy looking pup's, I'm sure there is some parvo around ,I'm betting some of those young as the summer wore on just died out from the mange. I have that here, I have trapped pups in Early/ Mid august that had a few weeks left of life at most, just mangy as all get out and little life left in them.
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This is done on my time and my dime. My views may differ from those of others!
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CrossJ
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posted September 24, 2008 12:20 PM
Randy, Yes it does make sence to me, and I am not suprised. Parvo and distemper are common viruses found within a canine population. I would suspect animals sampled to show a positive titer to both viruses. Their immune system worked. What causes the population to show clinical signs of the virus, who knows? Some sort of stress? People in your line of work would be more suited to answer that question. What were the dynamics of the population just prior to the outbreak? Things such as higher coyote densities, with suppressed prey base, or severe winters prior to welping? Anything that could 'stress' a population.
I know there has been much debate over the ability for mange mites to live in dens. It has been speculated that mites will remain in dens for long periods of time, thus continuing to infect a population. I am having a hard time following this idea. First off, the life expectancy of a mange mite is between 21 to 28 days(on a host). Gestation on mite eggs is around 14 days. The eggs require a host to be hatched. Mites do not have an exoskeleton like a tick. I feel this would compromise there existance without a host. Second, lets say a family unit occupies a den. They are infected with mange mites. For whatever reason, this family group abandons the den. How soon would another coyote or family of coyotes occupy the den? I would think it would be a very long time, given the time of year and the territorial issues. I would definatly think longer than 3 to 4 weeks(life expectancy of mites), and more like next denning season(live mites would not be present).
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A friend will help you move. A good friend will help you move a body.
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted September 24, 2008 03:42 PM
Or, it could be the other way around? You know how they say ponds out in the middle of the prairie and high alpine lakes get sorta colonized by dried fish eggs stuck to duck feathers?
It's possible the mite eggs could be in a suspended animation until the parents crawl into a den, sort of a vector for the mite, shake their coat a bit and sprinkle mite eggs all over the place for the next visiter. That's the question I have, do they snuggle up in a den to get out of the rain once in a while, outside of denning season?
Good hunting. LB
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
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Rich
2,000th post PAKMAN
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posted September 24, 2008 04:48 PM
"I (somehow) managed to keep up?"
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Leonard,
So did I, but I will never forget that first stand we made. We get out of the truck on this two track that ran for miles down the flat butte. We walked down the two track. As we walked, I would look back at the truck now and then. It wasn't until the truck was so far away that it looked like a Tonka toy, that we finally walked over to our right and called down into the valley we had followed along all this time. I couldn't help but wonder if it would have saved time and energy to simply drive up the two track til we got to that big rock marker, and THEN walk over about 100 yards to call down into that valley? Sure I know he had his reasons, I just can't figure out what those reasons were. Maybe just testing my old legs? LOL ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif) Watching Huber's dogs work those coyotes made every minute of that long walk worth the effort though. The Kid is good, I'll give him that.
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If you call the coyotes in close, you won't NEED a high dollar range finder.
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Rich
2,000th post PAKMAN
Member # 112
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posted September 24, 2008 04:59 PM
"question I have, do they snuggle up in a den to get out of the rain once in a while, outside of denning season?"
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In some area's the coyotes actually do spend some time in old culverts and brush piles that were used as dens during the spring. East of me, out in open farming country they do that. In the brush and timber that I hunt most of the time, they don't seem to do that. The coyotes I have known, seem to prefer dense cedar thickets to hang out in during storms.
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If you call the coyotes in close, you won't NEED a high dollar range finder.
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted September 24, 2008 05:03 PM
Well hell! You could still SEE the truck? That's not fair!
I'm with you, a good caller should be able to call them over here, rather than trecking into their "core" areas....whatever that is?
But, he has seen enough of his country from the air to know where they are hanging out, that's a big advantage.
Good hunting. LB
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
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R.Shaw
Peanut Butter Man, da da da da DAH!
Member # 73
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posted September 24, 2008 05:15 PM
I agree with Geordie. I don't see how they could survive without a host.
Now, when a coyote gets mange, is it a for sure and for certain death sentance? Maybe some can recover?
Randy
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Cdog911
"There are some ideas so absurd only an intellectual could believe them."--George Orwell.
Member # 7
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posted September 24, 2008 05:33 PM
Randy,
I'm not going to cite an article by author and date, and for that matter, any specific locale, but I do recall a study where they looked at mange in an exploited west Texas pop'n of coyotes and determined that once a coyote contracted the mange, he had something like a 98.5% of becoming infested (~1.5% seemed to be resistant or unpalatable to the mites), and of those infested, over 99% died from infections and stress-related diseases directly attributable to the mites. Therefore, I guess, for all intents and purposes, it is a fatal "disorder".
I've only killed one mange survivor that I know of. She was an old female that showed signs of having nursed many a pup in her life. It was cold January and she was essentially hairless from the back of the head to the rear most ribs, and her tail was hairless and nubbed off. She looked all gnarly as hell, but I couldn't find any open wounds, fresh scratch marks, or even an offensive odor (other than regular old coyote smell) to indicate that the infestation was active. Just dry looking, greyish bluish black skin. Another thing that this showed me, although it may not be the case in all survivors, was that in her case, she didn't appear able to regrow hair where it had been lost due to the mites. The dermal tissue appeared to be permanently scarred. I'd always wondered if any of them were able to survive it, and if they did, did their hair grow back.
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I am only one. But still, I am one. I cannot do everything, but still, I can do something; and, because I cannot do everything, I will not refuse to do something that I can do.
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CrossJ
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posted September 24, 2008 05:56 PM
Lance, I have seen a domestic dog that was infected regrow its hair, although the hair along the edge of its ears never returned.
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A friend will help you move. A good friend will help you move a body.
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Cdog911
"There are some ideas so absurd only an intellectual could believe them."--George Orwell.
Member # 7
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posted September 24, 2008 07:23 PM
Geordie, me, too. We had numerous occasions where our sight hounds would pick up mange mites from coyotes and start losing hair. My granddad would just slop axle grease over the area and by the time it wore off, the mange was gone. I suppose the grease suffocated the little varmints before they could get beyond the grease. When you're no bigger than a mange mite, I suppose 3 or 4 inches is a helluva long way to go when you're holding your breath. LOL
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I am only one. But still, I am one. I cannot do everything, but still, I can do something; and, because I cannot do everything, I will not refuse to do something that I can do.
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rainshadow1
Knows what it's all about
Member # 899
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posted September 24, 2008 07:32 PM
The hair on the ears not coming back was probably due to scratch damage. We killed scabies in our Bullies with Ivermectin, the hair came back like new. (Of course they're so stiff and fat they can't do alot of scratching!)
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- - Steve
RainShadow Game Calls & Custom Knives
Cougar E-Sound Library, Hand Calls, & Call-In Story Library.
www.rain-shadow.com
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Cdog911
"There are some ideas so absurd only an intellectual could believe them."--George Orwell.
Member # 7
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posted September 24, 2008 07:40 PM
Geordie, on a (un)related note, I had an English redtick hound that got prickly heat so bad one summer we cut his hair back - not bald, but danged close - at the vet's recommendation. Poor dog had a burr, man. Then, he wouldn't grow it back in. For the entire next season, that poor dog had nary a hair on him longer than 1/8-inch long. Going through and under barbed wire fences left him with a few nasty skin tears on his back and it became quickly apparent why a good hound needs a thick coat of hair. Later the next summer, when the dog still hadn't really shed out and regrown any new hair, the vet called me and told me to bring him in. When I got there, he showed me a study from the Journal of Veterinary Medicine citing a newly discovered type of tapeworm that had been documented in coyotes and which manisfested itself by disrupting the animal's ability to produce new hair. We began Cody on the meds he had and within a week, he started to take on a red tinge as those tick marks once again became visible. I wonder how many coyotes have poor hair growth from this parasite, and moreover, I wonder if they have a form of that med for me. Maybe I got this way from skinning too many coyotes without gloves. LOL (My growing fat belly might just be a big ol' tapeworm, too. Better get that looked at.)
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I am only one. But still, I am one. I cannot do everything, but still, I can do something; and, because I cannot do everything, I will not refuse to do something that I can do.
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Rich
2,000th post PAKMAN
Member # 112
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posted September 24, 2008 07:56 PM
"Well hell! You could still SEE the truck? That's not fair!
I'm with you, a good caller should be able to call them over here, rather than trecking into their "core" areas....whatever that is?"
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Now listen ya pin hed, we could have DRIVEN the truck DOWN a dry and level two track, right up to within 100 yards of that CORE area. Then we would have walked maybe 100 yards instead of three miles. The core area was in a VALLEY where coyotes in said valley could not have seen the truck. To an ordinary guy like me, it would seem easier and wiser to simply DRIVE rather than WALK. Sorry about the Pin Hed remark Leonard, I watched Bill O'Riley tonite.
Now to be perfectly honest, I did see the need to walk in to other stands we made. No road to drive, hills to steep for a 4X4 truck. If a man has a job like Wiley's, he had better be in good physical shape.
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If you call the coyotes in close, you won't NEED a high dollar range finder.
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CrossJ
SECOND PLACE: PAUL RYAN Look-a-like contest
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posted September 24, 2008 08:21 PM
LOL Lance, maybe you need a liter of cydectin pour on. Just rub a little on scalp area every morning, and wait for regrowth. I know Shaw is sitting on the edge of his seat awaiting the results....
Maintain
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A friend will help you move. A good friend will help you move a body.
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Cdog911
"There are some ideas so absurd only an intellectual could believe them."--George Orwell.
Member # 7
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posted September 25, 2008 04:41 AM
![[Smile]](smile.gif)
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I am only one. But still, I am one. I cannot do everything, but still, I can do something; and, because I cannot do everything, I will not refuse to do something that I can do.
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Wiley E
Knows what it's all about
Member # 108
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posted September 25, 2008 07:51 AM
Let's stop and think about the things we know to be fact on this issue. As someone pointed out, hogs are very susceptible to mange. I know because we sprayed them with Lindane 20% numerous times during the year. Those hogs stayed in that same environment year after year yet there was always mange present. That should tell us that mange, or mange eggs can live in that environment without being transferred from a live host because all the hogs were sprayed.
Now, the big unknown here is whether hogs get the same type of mange as sarcoptic mange and whether there is differences.
As Whacker has pointed out, I don't buy the hole transmission theory either. That would only hold true within a family unit. Seldom have I seen adult coyotes use the same den holes year after year to den in. I can't remember ever seeing them use the same holes but I'm sure they do at times. Coyotes in this area usually dig new cleanouts in the same general areas but again I have not seem them use the same holes. Fox, on the other hand, CAN use the same holes year after year.
It would be extremely rare to have different coyotes, outside of a family unit during denning, using the same holes. Mangy coyotes will seek refuge in holes during cold weather but those are not public use holes.
One of the most common behavioral traits of any canid, whether it be dog or coyote, is to roll on something that stinks. That's how I believe mange can spread so quickly. Numerous coyotes will roll on the same stinky carcass and spread mange from one to the next. I also believe it can be contracted through direct contact which could be territorial fighting or breeding.
Here's a curve ball for ya. I've seen a healthy male paired with a mangy female. You know they're in contact with eachother continually. Yet one is healthy and the other mangy. Stop and think about that.
A few years back we got into a lengthy debate/discussion on mange on a trapping site. A trapper by the name of Bob Wendt, who used to be a small animal vet, bet me or anyone else $10,000 that coyotes could not recover from mange without human intervention. That should tell you what point the debate reached. I believed that a small population of coyotes can recover from mange. My own observations and the observations of others have witnessed short hair growing back in patches on certain coyotes. I also found a study that showed a coyote in the advanced states of mange that showed signs of recovery and was upgraded in it's condition score. I also called the veterinary departments of Colorado State University and Kansas State University and both said recovery, although rare, was probable. Never collected the $10,000 by proving it.
I think it was Bob that came up with an interesting theory that I believe holds a lot of merit. In most places where you have coyotes, you have coyotes feeding on dead piles. Whether it's feedlots, hog confinements, or other dead piles. Think back to the food habit study I quoted. Carrion, on a annual basis for 8000 coyote stomachs in every state W. of the Missouri river constituted 25% of the diet. The yearly breakdown was 20% in the Spring, 17% in the summer, 28% in the fall, and 36% in the winter. Now consider that within some of those deadpiles you are going to have critters that died after having been treated with insecticides such as Ivomectin, Cydectin, Warbex, & Durasban. There is a very good chance that enough of this insecticide could be obtained through feeding to reverse the process on mange. I thought that was an excellent theory that made perfect sense.
So based on this, if hogs get the same type of mange as coyotes (sacoptic), then this mite obviously is not being transferred by a live host because all hogs were sprayed numerous times within the year and never left that same environment.
Incidentally, if you didn't spray your outdoor hogs (non confinement), they were reinfested continually so it didn't just spread under moist or dry conditions. If you didn't spray, your outdoor hogs got mangy regardless of the weather conditions.
Randy brings up a good point about Distemper and Parvo. When we become so focused on mange, we tend to miss other factors that might be contributing to coyote mortality. It's also possible that stress from mange could make coyote pups more susceptible to distemper and parvo. Although I have not personally witnessed parvo in pups, I know it happens. I have seen healthy adult pairs of coyotes that showed no signs of mange that had pups based on the placental scars and evidence of nursing and these coyotes were roaming without pups. I believe those pups died of parvo because neither adult had any signs of mange and nobody was gassing coyote dens or reported shooting any pups. I've seen this a couple times in the last 22 years.
I found an otherwise healthy coyote laying dead on the railroad tracks near Wall, SD once and it had not been hit by the train. Finding it very suspicious, I sent it in to the SDSU diagnostic lab and it had died of parvo. This was very strange because parvo usually affects the pups more than adults. According to the research, distemper also plays a significant role in coyote mortality in some regions. I know Canada has shown coyote mortality due to distemper.
What we seldom find is coyotes laying out in pastures that have died from parvo or distemper. If those two diseases were more prevalent, in adult coyotes, you would find some of those carcasses the same way ranchers find other dead livestock. They find our aerial killed coyotes all the time. Nature can't hide that mortality. Based on that, I think both of these diseases are more prevalent in pups than adults even though adults might test positive for these diseases.
Rich, you goofball, it wasn't 3 miles. We walked about 1 mile and I walked back to the truck and drove back to pick you up, remember? In this country, if you call too close to your vehicle, you are going to reduce your success due to the coyote's association of danger with vehicles. Ask Albert sometime how his success increased when he started walking to the coyotes instead of trying to call them to the vehicle. Keep in mind, vehicles driving around in pastures in this country is not like other areas of increased non threatening traffic. The coyotes we were hunting had managed to live through grouse season, antelope season, deer season, and coyote calling season. Their association with vehicle noise is not a positive thing. I don't take that chance.
Since I haven't called Jenny Craig yet, those hills aren't as easy as they used to be. If I'm going to have any success, I have to walk.
Leonard, I picked stands where I could drive as close as I could which is precisely why I was so indecisive as to where we were going to call. Just trying to be accomodating.
~SH~
[ September 25, 2008, 08:06 AM: Message edited by: Wiley E ]
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Rich
2,000th post PAKMAN
Member # 112
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posted September 25, 2008 08:18 AM
"Rich, you goofball, it wasn't 3 miles. We walked about 1 mile and I walked back to the truck and drove back to pick you up, remember?"
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Wiley,
Yes, I do remember you being nice enough to go get the truck and bring it over to this tired old fat man. I appreciate it too. If I had walked that three miles back to the truck, I would have been too tuckered out to make another stand.
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If you call the coyotes in close, you won't NEED a high dollar range finder.
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted September 25, 2008 08:56 AM
Wiley, I didn't complain, but accomodating? I think I remember a one hour walk , across an almost impassible gully, at least a quarter mile of swamp and mud, then way further yonder to get to those dirt hills. Several times we were not in sight of each other for ten/fifteen minutes at a time. I know you were at least a quarter-mile from me, on stand and I couldn't hear the caller? Why didn't you go get the truck for me , pal? I thought I did good.
Good hunting. LB
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
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Rich
2,000th post PAKMAN
Member # 112
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posted September 25, 2008 10:28 AM
Well Hell, Leonard, I guess we know which one of us he likes now. I suppose he didn't let you drink out of his water jug, or buy your lunch either huh?
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If you call the coyotes in close, you won't NEED a high dollar range finder.
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Cdog911
"There are some ideas so absurd only an intellectual could believe them."--George Orwell.
Member # 7
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posted September 25, 2008 11:01 AM
That big country calling is "special". I actually had the chance at a good deal on a GPS unit this year and grabbed it up - for one reason: those long walkabouts when I hunt with Q, whether up in NE or in SW KS. I'll use it here to mark den trees in big timbers, but up there, I can't tell you the number of times I've thought to myself that if Q ever broke his leg or had a stroke or something, he and I were both screwed because I had absolutely no friggin' idea where the truck was for most of the day. LOL
Scott, good point on the coyote pairs where one is mange-ridden and the other is clean. Makes you wonder. I can see parvovirus being a bigger factor in pups as the virus itself is especially fond of dividing cells, which a puppy is nothing but. Distemper is the major limiting factor here on coons - both canine and feline- and has been very prevalent for the past several years, so I imagine we have a certain amount of mortality from that. Years ago, I had a hunting dog contract something from something else in the field that mimicked distemper, but wasn't. (?) The vet that treated and saved the dog gave it a name I cannot recall, but he said it was close enough to canine distemper that a dog could catch it, but dissimilar enough that the vaccine wouldn't protect them. He said it was actually closer, biologically, to feline distemper. Way too many ugly wee critters out there to be handling some of this stuff without a biohazard suit on anymore.
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I am only one. But still, I am one. I cannot do everything, but still, I can do something; and, because I cannot do everything, I will not refuse to do something that I can do.
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JeremyKS
Knows what it's all about
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posted September 25, 2008 11:09 AM
Does anybody know what the results were from the guy that pulled blood from all the coyotes at the St. Francis hunt last year? If I remember right he was testing for Distemper and Parvo?
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Wiley E
Knows what it's all about
Member # 108
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posted September 25, 2008 02:42 PM
Hahaha Leonard! Oops, forgot about that stand. Haha! You forgot to mention stopping to pull cactus. I don't think I could have gotten the truck to that spot if I tried.
Fine, I'll order a "Huvaround" with cactus juice in the tires for you next time and automatic 4WD, jet propulsion to cross creeks, and a gun scabbard.
I got you close on that last stand where we shot that coyote. That wasn't too bad was it?
I suppose you told everyone how I carried someone else's luggage out of the airport thinking it was yours too. Leonard probably thought I was a cleptomaniac. Haha! That was too funny!
Cdog,
Distemper is the regulating factor on coon pretty much everywhere in the US. I haven't been to a place yet that didn't have distemper in coon.
Jeremy,
Good question. It would be good to know the results of all that bloodwork.
Got that spot picked out yet? We're counting on you. We're done fighting noisy frozen snow and heavily called areas. Time to head to the banana belt. We want to drink tequilla, get back rubs, and shoot coyotes. Perhaps that's too far South huh?
~SH~
[ September 25, 2008, 02:43 PM: Message edited by: Wiley E ]
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted September 25, 2008 03:25 PM
You are right, Amigo! I did forget cactus foot in the mud. Had to remove my "high top hush puppies"?
(you ridiculed my desert storm combat boots, which helped me avoid excess weight charges on my luggage).....
Obviously, you like Rich better.
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
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Wiley E
Knows what it's all about
Member # 108
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posted September 25, 2008 03:46 PM
Hahaha! I don't remember "ridiculing" your combat boots but I may have commented on how impressive they looked. LOL! I'm sure they were more cactus resistant than your hush puppies but not quite as sneaky. Yelling "ouch" when the cactus penetrates the hush puppies kinda defeats their sneaky purpose, huh? LOL! I still laugh every time I think of that tall rock wall we were going to repell down to make a stand. "OK SCOTT, PULL ME UP".
Perhaps you will get the chance to remove me from my comfort zone and you can laugh as I wave at strangers going down the highway. Dundie: "Good Eye Mate"
~SH~
[ September 25, 2008, 03:48 PM: Message edited by: Wiley E ]
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JeremyKS
Knows what it's all about
Member # 736
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posted September 25, 2008 03:55 PM
I will try to ask Brent the next time I talk to him about those results.
O yeah we got some prime real estate picked out for you. It just has that look to it, as you would say it might have a coyote go through it every once in awhile lol. We might be even able to round of some of the local senoritas for you guys lol.
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