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Author
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Topic: Kansas predator loss thread
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Tim Behle
Administrator MacNeal Sector
Member # 209
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posted February 22, 2007 05:01 AM
Before anyone else steps into Scott's puddle of shit and comes to the defense of wildlife services, maybe I should cut to my point.
I don't have an argument with anyone else, and I'll save my problems with Wildlife Services for another post.
My disagreement is with Scott only.
Scott,
We know that you are a talented hunter and trapper, no one here is questioning that. You are also very intelligent and articulate, again no one is questioning that point. But what useful thing do you bring to the table for either the hunting or trapping communities?
You come to this board once or twice a year, simply to stir the pot and piss off my friends until they get tired of your shit and quit posting. You are no better than Bill Martz when it comes to making friends.
So you don't like the way Lance writes? Then don't read his writing!
If you don't like the way Byron South chatters on his videos, don't buy them.
You don't like the Name that Ronnie Robison picked for a new call? Try coming up with your own name and market your own call!
Do you notice a difference between you and the men that I just mentioned? Here it is, they are independent businessmen who are working to provide their own living by doing something that the hunting community is willing to pay to support. No one is forced to buy their products, they do it by their own free will.
During your visit here last fall, you were accusing people of "Prostituting the Industry" But the thing is, you were hurling you insults from the doorstep of Wildlife Services, the biggest whorehouse in the industry. If you think that you know better, or can do better than these men have done for our industry, I suggest you grow the balls to step out from under your protective cover, get off of the porch and try hunting with the big dogs.
Write your own articles, produce your own videos and calls. Produce something good enough that the hunting and trapping communities will support you in your efforts and you don't have to rely on the Government forcing people to pay your wages.
You have the talent, but it's a damned shame that you won't use your talent to become anything more than a Bill Martz clone.
The only difference at this point between you and Martz is your talent. Why in the hell won't you step up and put that talent to a positive use, instead of coming here a few times a year, only to degrade others?
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Personally, I carry a gun because I'm too young to die and too old to take
an ass kickin'.
Posts: 3160 | From: Five Miles East of Vic, AZ | Registered: Jun 2003
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted February 22, 2007 07:34 AM
Don't sugar coat it, Tim.
Like Rush says about the mainstream news, now we have Scott, the "drive by" Internet critic.
Can you imagine the effort, all that cutting and pasting? I don't even have time to read it properly, just scan it.
Good hunting. LB
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 31465 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
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scruffy
Knows what it's all about
Member # 725
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posted February 22, 2007 07:37 AM
Quote from CW's post -
Tim said - "Wake up and get a grip! Take a look at those numbers that coyote whacker posted again. Look at those top producing States, like Texas. When is the last time you heard a Texan whine about easy hunting access? They have Wildlife services, and yet the nearly the entire state is under a hunting lease. But if you go to States with out Wildlife services, you find land owners willing to FREELY allow hunters on their land ."
CW - "Not factual at all Tim, try going to southern Iowa anymore and getting a "free" shot at a big buck or try going to Ill and getting that shot at a big buck, they are all going to hunting lease or paid to hunt. Yet they have no wildlife services programs. Last time I hunted southern Iowa, deer crawling all over themselves on a late season doe only hunt we actually had a few that wanted 100.00 per doe shot on their place LOL! With all the high fences in Texas can we really say what is and isn't wildlife anymore? Texas is not the great model of hunting by any means."
Did you drive up to the farmer with out of state plates? (If I see out of state plates I either say "no" or "show me the $$$". ![[Razz]](tongue.gif) )
I don't have a problem finding ground to hunt deer on here (southern Iowa), more and more the farmers I ask to coyote hunt on ask me if I deer hunt and want to take some deer off also (I usually decline). Fortunately most farmers down here still could care less if a buck on his farm has 22 points on it or not. He's more worried about what ethenol is going to do to him depending on what type of operation he's running (growing corn or feeding corn to livestock or both), what new restrictions are coming, etc.
anyway, we don't need any wildlife programs here and we don't need to pay someone to kill coyotes with taxes. There's more than enough dog wagons (both sight hounds and dogs that track on smell, mostly sniffers down here), spot/stalk, callers, trucks, etc to keep the coyote in check, atleast enough they don't cause mass killings requiring the govt to step in.
later,
scruffy
[ February 22, 2007, 07:43 AM: Message edited by: scruffy ]
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Git R Done
Posts: 361 | From: south central Iowa | Registered: Nov 2005
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Rich
2,000th post PAKMAN
Member # 112
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posted February 22, 2007 07:47 AM
"Not a fur tool by any means!!!"
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Coyote Whacker,
I can tell by reading your posts that you know quite a lot about trapping and the use of M-44's, but to say that the M-44 is not a fur tool by ANY means is simply not true. I have seen M-44 killed coyotes put up for fur, seen it with my own eyes. I even know one old trapper who actually prefers the M-44 killed coyotes, because there is no blood on the fur. I have actually observed this trapper when he smeared cyanide paste on a stick and held it out for a trapped coyote to bite. Quick, easy and no mess.
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If you call the coyotes in close, you won't NEED a high dollar range finder.
Posts: 2854 | From: Iowa | Registered: Feb 2003
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Wiley E
Knows what it's all about
Member # 108
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posted February 22, 2007 07:49 AM
Tim,
Nobody is forcing anyone to read my posts just as you recommended I not read Lance's articles. I don't.
I don't work for Wildlife Service and never have.
I don't like misleading information and will correct it if I'm allowed and I'll do it in the form of my chosing.
Nobody is forcing your friends to read my posts.
My opinion should be just as valid as anyone else's.
I don't care what anyone thinks of me because I have nothing to sell.
I don't care for fast buck artists that sell someone else's knowledge for their own personal gain and noteriety.
If that makes me a "Bill Martz clone" than I plead guilty as charged.
I'm not looking for friendship. I'm correcting misleading and inaccurate information.
I appreciate your candor and your criticisms and hold absolutely no ill will towards them. I am well prepared to accept that criticism considering the nature of my posts. It goes with the territory of correcting misleading and contradicting information.
Direct to your question:
Tim: "But what useful thing do you bring to the table for either the hunting or trapping communities?"
Very simple! I make people think about the validity of the information that they are reading. If that has no value to you, then skip over my posts. I'd swear, if I didn't know any better, I'd think you and your friends were being forced to read my posts at gunpoint.
My contributions to trapping and calling? LOL!
Tim you obviously don't know anything about me if you have to ask that question considering the time I spent defending trapping, teaching trapping, giving trapping and calling seminars, answering questions, ad nauseum.
I don't owe anyone anything!
Do you honestly think you can judge someone solely based on words on a computer screen?
TB: "I suggest you grow the balls to step out from under your protective cover, get off of the porch and try hunting with the big dogs."
Could you translate that for me?
Just exactly how do you propose I go about "hunting with the big dogs"?
~SH~
[ February 22, 2007, 09:48 AM: Message edited by: Wiley E ]
Posts: 853 | From: Kadoka, S.D | Registered: Feb 2003
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Wiley E
Knows what it's all about
Member # 108
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posted February 22, 2007 07:59 AM
Rich,
I think you misunderstood CW. I took that statement to mean, M-44s are not meant as a fur harvesting tool, which is true. I don't use many M-44s during prime fur season and certainly not during dog hunting season. Back in the days where I did use M-44s during prime fur season during winter lamb kills, I salvaged some fur but most of it ended up as eagle food.
~SH~
Posts: 853 | From: Kadoka, S.D | Registered: Feb 2003
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Rich
2,000th post PAKMAN
Member # 112
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posted February 22, 2007 08:30 AM
Scott,
You may well be correct, maybe I misunderstood the meaning of those words. The point is, if I can misunderstand then someone else could also misunderstand. When I see a statement like that on this board, I have an inner need to point it out. I know a guy in South Dakota who is a stickler for the facts also. ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
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If you call the coyotes in close, you won't NEED a high dollar range finder.
Posts: 2854 | From: Iowa | Registered: Feb 2003
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Wiley E
Knows what it's all about
Member # 108
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posted February 22, 2007 09:48 AM
quote:
Rich: "When I see a statement like that on this board, I have an inner need to point it out."
As do I!
This buds for you!
Keep on keepin' on!
~SH~
Posts: 853 | From: Kadoka, S.D | Registered: Feb 2003
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Cdog911
"There are some ideas so absurd only an intellectual could believe them."--George Orwell.
Member # 7
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posted February 22, 2007 06:48 PM
The rest of you guys owe me one. I had another long cut and paste manifesto all typed out when we experienced something of a minor family emergency here that required my immediate attention. After stepping away from the computer for a while, I came back and realized just how far Scott had baited me into his way of thinking. So, I'll try to keep this short so as not to bore you. If it gets a little windy, I apologize now. LOL
Scott,
People keep giving you credit for being an intelligent man. I don't see it. Throughout this debate, you have insisted on repeatedly offering up the same twisted spin about how I say I have no predator problems here, then how I supposedly contradict myself in saying the we manage the problems ourselves. I've done everything I know to do, to no avail, and can only conclude that you are a little "thick".
A number of guys have contacted me to let me know that my repeated explanations have been very understandable, and quite frankly, inquiring as to what the hell is wrong with you. But, just in case there's still a glimmer of hope, I'll go against my better judgment and give it one last college try.
Do we have a predator problem here? Because you like to go after every little word so you can confuse the issue with static and throw your opponent off balance, I should probably define as much of that statement as I can.
Thus, the answer is no. Occasional nuisance problems? Yes. Depredation problem, no. In this sense, I define a depredation problem as an ongoing problem where more than one animal (calf, lamb, whatever) are killed over a specific period of time. Last one of those was two seasons ago. I fixed that one.
Nuisance problem is another thing entirely. And a nuisance could be defined, IMO, as anything a coyote does to annoy a landowner. To me, my figures reflect those problems that result in monetary loss or the probability of loss. I don't have time to go out after every farmer's wife that complains that their dog's barking at the coyotes at night keep them awake.
Maybe you'd be more comfortable in thinking that guys like me manage "nuisance problems". I doubt that your ego will allow that, but let's at least base part of this dialogue on that definition.
Therefore, do we have a depredation problem here, with "here" being the four counties where I hunt in northcentral Kansas? No.
Do we have nuisance coyotes in this area? My answer: occasionally. Wherever you have coyotes, one or more will eventually cross wires with people. Anyone want to argue that?
On those occasions when a coyote gets crossed up with people, the ones that let us hunt on their ground know they can call us and we will go out and do what we can to help them out. In every instance over the past three seasons, a total of seven, I have been able to resolve the issue through calling the coyotes and killing them. In that sense, we have "managed the problems on our own". Not only is this my opinion, but after following up with the landowners to see if there had been any recurrences to either them or their neighbors, none have been observed. Problems were managed to the landowners' satisfaction as well as to mine.
That's about as simple a way as I can explain it. If you still don't get it, then my ability to write has failed us both because there simply aren't words to explain it more clearly and it then becomes obvious that you either are truly stupid or you simply like to argue, regardless of how petty it makes you look.
Going back through your various rants, it appears that the problem/ no problem issue is the primary basis of your attacks on me. Everyone else understands the issue, more than they want to in most cases I suppose, so I can only assume that you're reasonable enough to understand as well.
On to your opinion of my writing. I really couldn't care less. I know that doesn't shake you a bit, but you sure seem to enjoy letting everyone else know just what it is you don't like about my material and, in your opinion, why.
The world takes all kinds. Even those like you. The fact that I can accept criticism makes me a better candidate for the position of writer than you in the first place. You'd never survive the first round of people you think to be beneath you questioning your material. Somehow, you expect me to have the time to field test the various techniques employed by callers across the country to the extent that I can speak as an expert on everything. Unfortunately for me, I guess, I don't get paid to call coyotes full time like you, nor do most other writers. Instead, we write beyond the first person sense. We contact recognizable and experienced experts in the field, conduct interviews, do our research and assemble a piece that conveys useful information to our readers. What you so intelligently inferred to as being plagiarism of others' intellectual property is regarded by the rational, objective real world as simple research and it's commonplace in all journalism. For example, last week I read a piece in the local rag on the high school basketball team, yet the gal that wrote it said nothing about being on the court herself. ![[Confused]](confused.gif) ![[Eek!]](eek.gif)
Your demands and expectations are unreasonable and, if that's what you're looking for in a magazine on calling, then obviously, the two I write for aren't for you. In fact, they aren't anyway. I've attempted to make it clear to you that our market is the "experienced trapper and predator caller". Not professional ADC people who are paid to sit through classes to learn all the newest and most effective methods in taking coyotes, many and most of which are not available to the lay caller. We write to a specific cross section of the market. Your training is beyond that, so if you don't care for what I offer, like Tim said, turn the page.
In the end, you're just one individual man. One out of a subscribership of over 38,000 each issue by last count. And PH ***** even more than that. You're a non-factor, dude.
In 13 years writing for T&PC, I've only had two dissatisfied customers; you and Sonny from Iowa, and he was just pissed because I wrote about his coon calling "secret". By his own admission, he liked the article and agreed with everything I had to say. So, in that sense, you stand alone. And if it's all the same to you, I choose to focus on the phone calls, e-mails and letters I get from people who have remained objective and tried that about which I have written and found it to helpful.
Long story less long, as Gerry would say, you come across as a petty and bitter angry man. At least I know that you have to be with you 24-7-365, and better you than me. Little advice, from me to you. That Lipitor you're on would be a lot more effective at controlling cholesterol if you would learn not to be such a prick to everyone all the time. Cholesterol is a by-product of the body's response to stress, but then again, you probably already knew that didn't you? Maybe you can cut it with some Premarin next time around. LOL
Oh, BTW, your comment where you invoked Krusty's name were really just as much a slam to him as they were to me. you might have meant them to sound complimentary, but you tried to make me look bad by comparing me to someone you offered up as worse. Especially sad since K gave you a nice compliment in our last little dust up. You're quite a friend. And, if you meant it to twist my tail a bit, it didn't work. When my dad died, K stepped up, despite our past history of not getting along, and did a pretty damned good thing for me. You should strive to be half the man he is.
As far as your comments trying to refute what I said back to coyote whacker regarding coursing coyotes with greyhounds, he's objective and adult enough that he understood what I said. And to think I was concerned that I had dumbed it down to where I thought he might be offended.
But, as usual, it wasn't dumbed down far enough. You had to glean, spin and twist my words to fit your agenda. Petty, petty, petty.
The rest of these guys get it, and that's what I'll hang my hat on. You seem to think you're gaining some traction with all that when you just come off looking ridiculous. Laughable.
You think you've won another great debate, don't you? You need help, Scott. You've got a problem. The way you know coyotes, I know sick people. It was my job for many years. Do you realize that for the past 48 hours, you've been reacting to MY twists and spin? Do you realize that the rest of us are doing to you what you think you're doing to us? You're a freak, dude.
As far as the coyotes and greyhounds go, your remarks reveal that you know nothing about coursing greyhounds, and that you know absolutely nothing about this region. Nothing at all. What kinda balls does it take to sit up there in Nowhere, SD, and try to tell ME what my area is like for calling? Friggin' intellectual hypocrite!
Ironically, you once told someone else on this board that the only way a guy can be judged in his calling is to compare his numbers against guys that call the same area, the same coyotes, under the same conditions. When I provide data from guys in this area, calling these coyotes under the same conditions as I, you insist on comparing me and my numbers to Jeremy and Nick in SW Kansas. Your own statements reveal your stupidity. It isn't ignorance because ignorance is correctable and in your case, you won't listen to anyone else, right or wrong. In your case, you can't fix stupid. Your logic is flawed and misleading. Get your facts right then we can talk like objective adults. You expect it of others. We demand the same from you.
For clarification, apparently we have more coyotes than you. Lots more. But, the way ours respond seems to be vastly different than in other places. I don't say that because I heard it. I say that because I have been other places and have seen it first hand. On several occasions. Otherwise, I wouldn't schedule an out of state hunt or two a year. Trying to identify why this is would be conjecture, at best, but I don't recall any hero stories of you smacking coyotes in eastern Kansas so I suspect you have no first hand experience with here, versus there. That makes some of us a bit more qualified to hold an opinion than you.
I just don't understand guys like you that always question those of us in these areas when we say our response rates differ from yours. Especially when we go to your place, do well using the same types of sounds under the same conditions as you, then come home and not see nearly as much, even though we apparently have more coyotes. It's a mystery.
Finally, your list of accomplishments. Admittedly, impressive. Despite your frequent and cordial invitations to join all of you in the spirit of competition at St. Francis, I'm not interested. For several reasons. First off, I can't get the time off from work. At least, not schedule it far enough in advance to get the full weekend off. I work Saturdays and am low enough on the totem at work that extra Saturdays off go to the senior bunch before they fall in my lap. I did manage to have this years full weekend off. Found out about it the Thursday before. A little too late to get my registration in and locate ground to hunt on.
Second, it just doesn't appeal to me. I didn't know that was a character flaw.
Now, I could do a job like yours, apparently underpaid, but I have a family to think of first before gallivanting all over the country hunting coyotes because it defines me. And the huge federal pension plan I'm building for my early retirement at 56 is just too damned appealing for me to give it up so I can struggle paycheck to paycheck until I'm 70 and too damned crippled up to be able to even get around. Besides, staying a "working man" helps me to stay in touch with the market for my writing. If you think I write too much now, wait until after I hit 56, retire from Uncle Sam and go hunting all over so I can write even more! I may even send you complimentary copies of my stuff. ![[Wink]](wink.gif)
Also, your names list. I do, in fact, recognize many of those names beyond the boards, and personally have met several of them. I won't say which one, but you misspelled it and that makes me wonder how well you know him, too.
How many of them would include you on their lists?
Finally, you haven't answered my question.
Have you ever hunted the World Hunt and if so, how did it turn out for you?
Kinda reminds me of Barry Bonds and Mark McGwire, two legends that came under scrutiny because of, well, an indiscretion, if you will. Once the truth was out, all that they'd ever done came under scrutiny as well.
I'll leave it to you to be honest with everyone here. Most regular people know, but there are a lot of recent newcomers that may be inclined to be boot lickers and leg humpers that deserve to know it all. I'm doubting you will, since it's your modes operandi to only offer up that which suits your agenda. You decide. Far be from me to be the one to tell your truth.
So, Scott, maybe I'm misleading, uninformed, and exploitative of the work of others. If you say so, it must be true. But, I know me, and I know that at least I can stand and look others in the eye knowing I'm an honest man.
Rich,
Thanks for the try, but I suspect a day in the field would end badly for one of us and the other would land in jail. I'll pass.
[ February 22, 2007, 07:01 PM: Message edited by: Cdog911 ]
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I am only one. But still, I am one. I cannot do everything, but still, I can do something; and, because I cannot do everything, I will not refuse to do something that I can do.
Posts: 5438 | From: The gun-lovin', gun-friendly wild, wild west | Registered: Jan 2003
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Cdog911
"There are some ideas so absurd only an intellectual could believe them."--George Orwell.
Member # 7
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posted February 22, 2007 06:51 PM
Wow! And to think that that was the short version. Guess I won't be signing on with Reader's Digest any time too soon.
Numbers update! (dah-da-dah-da-dah-da-dah...)
Calls: 0
Kills: 0
People who like me?: 37,999
People who don't: 1
(I'm not counting the lady that caught me on the street in front of my house last night and told me about her dog barking at something night before last and wanting me to come out and kill the coyotes. But, if it will help "pad" the numbers, I will. (Do ya think I should?)
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I am only one. But still, I am one. I cannot do everything, but still, I can do something; and, because I cannot do everything, I will not refuse to do something that I can do.
Posts: 5438 | From: The gun-lovin', gun-friendly wild, wild west | Registered: Jan 2003
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted February 22, 2007 07:44 PM
I can probably respond about the hunt you are hinting at, Lance. Scott was disqualified for splitting his team and making separate stands, and he said so on (?)Posse Country, years ago, I believe?
I am not sticking up for him, but in all honesty, at the time, I agreed with him about stupid and unenforceable hunt rules. I don't know why he intentionally violated the rules, maybe on principle, but he paid for it.
You already have a extensive laundry list of charactor faults so that one probably didn't need mentioning? So, as a favor, I did it; and you are welcome.
Good hunting. LB
PS remember, I'm not sticking up for anybody, and we have to abide by HM policy of not editing posts or deleting stuff that pisses us off. gotta take the good with the bad, and find comfort in knowing that everybody can say their piece (to a fairtheewell) and so does the next guy.
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 31465 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
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coyote whacker
Knows what it's all about
Member # 639
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posted February 22, 2007 08:37 PM
rich, I did mean that m-44's are to be used on coyote depredation complaints not as a means for private applicators to harvest fur. That would be against the rules and regs. Sure those that set and kill some coyotes when the fur is good will sell them, but not meant to be used like a trap,snare as a means to harvest fur for the most part.
There are plenty of great people who sell nothing, big names become so because they have an ego or want to profit in some way from there endevours. Just because someone has a video, a book, a magazine article, doesn't make them an expert. It means they are giving there thoughts and views, sometimes they can be proven false and misleading under real life circumstances, but those that haven't experienced things under many conditions and circumstances will take that as gospel.
I make zero claims to be the best, but I know from my field experiences and talking to those that know their shit and matching that up with in the field experiences I can separate the wheat from the chaff.
Scruffy I was an Iowa resident for many years, not from Griswold the area we hunted, but I laugh at the mear idea of being charged to shoot does. I have a good friend who lives well that pays 3000.00 a year to lease 1500 acres to deer hunt for 4 weeks out of the year in southern Iowa. I would ask anyone not local to go down with bow or shotgun in hand to hunt bucks and find a place from red oak east and south and not pay to hunt!!!! By not local I mean not a friend or long resident of the area, not going to happen in this day and age, too much money to be had by the 30 point chasers.
Scruffy easy to say when you have small farms and feed lot type operations, it shows you know little of open range operations and most guys that have sheep in Iowa have less than 200 head, that is a generous figure and keep them real close to human activity, big differance in practices from Iowa and the western U.S.
I also had an Iowa license and ran my own ADC business, I took the test passed with flying colors. The DNR must see a need or why license private guys to do the work and charge? Problem is too many are cheap and think everything should be done free of charge, no matter the time involved or expertise.Many think I should have come at no cost to them, how is that better than those that pay into a program?
I had plenty that called after calling the local CO and wanted me to drive 25-40 miles to solve a wildlife issue and balked at the notion I charged for my time, gas and services. Will a furnace repairman charge you if your not bright enough to figure out your pilot light is out and you had no heat? Or would he come free of charge and light it for you? If the electrican came to see why you had no lights or hot water and found the breaker was flipped is he comming free of charge? Or at the least are you getting a service call charge?
Get real scruffy.
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This is done on my time and my dime. My views may differ from those of others!
Posts: 376 | From: USA | Registered: Apr 2005
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blakyote
Knows what it's all about
Member # 1064
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posted February 22, 2007 09:41 PM
quote:
Instead, we write beyond the first person sense. We contact recognizable and experienced experts in the field, conduct interviews, do our research and assemble a piece that conveys useful information to our readers.
So what your saying is the writer isn't really writing from first hand or hands on experience?That disappoints me a little,just for the simple fact that second hand info has a tendency to be slightly exaggerated or misinterpreted.I don't expect outdoor writers to know everything,but do expect that the writer is talking from personal experience,that's what I pay for.
Posts: 36 | From: N.WI | Registered: Dec 2006
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Cdog911
"There are some ideas so absurd only an intellectual could believe them."--George Orwell.
Member # 7
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posted February 23, 2007 04:49 AM
No, blakyote, that's not what I'm saying.
I do have first hand experience with everything I've ever written about, or I wouldn't write about it. I can't speak to outdoor writers as a whole, but I can and will speak for myself. If I hear about a technique that sounds credible, I'm all for giving it a try. Usually for a couple seasons. If it works out and I can replicate the results that the source claims to have enjoyed here, then it seems plausible to me that anyone, anywhere, could do the same, thus making it something worth writing about.
The reasons I chose to write the articles Scott wants to call into question is because I had previously written nearly everything from just first hand experience. Wanting to expound on my skills as a writer, I saw the opportunity to refine my skills in interviewing, researching another person's claims and statements, then transposing all that information into a readable and enjoyable article for the reader. Those first hand experiences I included were the best examples I personally experienced in using the method covered on my own hunts and served dual purposes. First, it confirmed for you, the reader, that the method is not site specific to the contributor and that it worked for me, too, and where I live, as well. Second, it adds a little variety to the piece and makes it more interesting to read.
Just so you know, I've never yet written a piece about any particular method that I myself didn't have complete confidence in, just so I could turn a "fast buck". Scott may point to the St. Francis hunt as an example because I don't comp hunt. Not relevant if you ask me, but I did that story 1) as an assignment, 2) as a favor to my buddy Brent Rueb, and 3) because comp hunts are growing in popularity. Brent approached me about doing a follow up this year and I pitched it to my editor. The response was basically "no way" since the last one triggered a deluge of angry reader mail and phone calls, not because of my writing or anything to do with me, but rather, from dedicated callers that consider comp hunting to be unethical and who threatened to cancel their subscriptions if we continued presenting those types of pieces. And also, since we seem to need to qualify everything we say here for the nitpickers, I do not agree with that assessment. But, as is the case with Scott and you, everyone is entitled to their opinion.
Leonard,
Thank you for pointing that out. To clarify to those, I think the proper phrase would be "cheating". I didn't figure that the self-appointed Grand Knight of All Things Coyote Calling would step up and tell us himself. You deprived him of a good chance to build a little character. My point in bringing it up is simple - he challenges my credibility. As a writer. As a hunter. In my case, aside from his criticisms, both are without blemish, and anyone who knows me knows that for a fact. His, on the other hand, is a matter of question. If, as he states, his wins are legitimate, and I would guess he learned his lesson and they are, then bully for him. I'm not above giving credit where credit is due. But if he wants to launch one of his sophomoric and moronic attacks on me, then the last thing he should expect is for me to roll over and piss on myself because he is the great and mighty Scott Huber. Read the rants above again. All he's got is a fistful of straw from all the grasping, and for naught.
What is they teach our kids in school? Character is how you conduct yourself when no one is looking.
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I am only one. But still, I am one. I cannot do everything, but still, I can do something; and, because I cannot do everything, I will not refuse to do something that I can do.
Posts: 5438 | From: The gun-lovin', gun-friendly wild, wild west | Registered: Jan 2003
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Rich
2,000th post PAKMAN
Member # 112
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posted February 23, 2007 05:18 AM
Cdog911,
It seems that I recall a thread on a public board entitled "Confession with a heavy heart". I will do a search to be sure this is the public confession that I think it is. If I remember correctly, Scott explained that mistake already. I made a mistake once myself. Maybe more than one. I am betting that no human is perfect, NONE.
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If you call the coyotes in close, you won't NEED a high dollar range finder.
Posts: 2854 | From: Iowa | Registered: Feb 2003
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Wiley E
Knows what it's all about
Member # 108
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posted February 23, 2007 06:09 AM
Your lengthy disertation was just more of the same talking in circles and really saying nothing. I'm glad you can hold your head high Lance while you can't get it done but feel qualified to tell others how to do it.
I hope you can decide whether their aren't any coyotes in your area or whether you have lots of coyotes and whether you don't have any predation problems in your area or whether you need to create the impression that you are a coyote problem solver. Your 11% success rate and your excuses ("shoulder high grass for miles and miles, I mean knee high grass, I don't know how those greyhound guys do it") for your inability to get it done yourself speaks volumes yet you feel qualified to tell others how to do it with methods you haven't even tried yourself.
It's reassuring to know you have a fan base because you definitely need it. Anyone can write about it.
As far as the "cheating" cloud you think you can hang over my head. That's old news but I know how badly you need something like that right now. As Leonard pointed out, I told that story a long time ago on Predator Masters.
For those like Lance who need dirty laundry on me, I'll tell the story again so the less confident have something to make themselves feel better.
Rawlins had become a cheater's fest for far greater "CHEATING" crimes than splitting from the same vehicle, which BTW is an unenforceable rule. To the point where many callers abandoned the Rawlins contest and many more were given the boot. The hunters who were crawling all over eachother on public land were sick of competing with private leases which, unjustifiably, prompted a lof of cheating.
The first day of our last day at Rawlins we saw one team split on seperate 4 wheelers and talked to another team that admitted to splitting on foot before "I" decided to take the "can't beat them join them" attitude on the second day which did nothing to enhance our position anyway. I said, "to hell with it", so we split up on foot FROM THE SAME VEHICLE and were reported. Later we had another team tell us that they had done the same thing. We were reported, others weren't. So be it!
In hindsight, I should not have taken the "can't beat them join them" attitude and should have simply left the contest and our money behind. That was my mistake and I'll own up to it. My regret is that I took my partner with me and that's what I really regret.
I was done with Rawlins anyway because I was sick of donating my money to an unlevel playing field of private leases. Most contests don't even have the side by side rule as long as you travel in the same vehicle because it's unenforceable without a judge. "Rules are rules" and we broke the rules and I'll own up to it. Not a problem.
Before I entered St. Francis I told Brent Rueb exactly what happened in Rawlins. When confronted about it by Norm Heater we readily admitted it and told him why we took the position we did. Norm was really good about it but we were done with Rawlins.
In contrast, St. Francis allows 500 yards between teams and enforces this rule by making team members compare stories. In St. Francis, I know we are competing on a playing field that is as level as it's going to get. There is no comparison between Rawlins and St. Francis as far as the quality of the contest, the stacked decks, and the enforceability of the rules but what would you know Lance, you just write about it right?
WOW! YOU REALLY GOT THE SMOKING GUN THERE DON'T YOU LANCE??? BULLY FOR YOU! I know how bad you needed something like this because your dismal calling record sure won't carry you. Talk about insecurities. I wondered how long it would take for you to bring that up and now I know the desperate state you have reached.
Cdog: "My point in bringing it up is simple - he challenges my credibility. As a writer. As a hunter. In my case, aside from his criticisms, both are without blemish, and anyone who knows me knows that for a fact."
Hahaha! Is that why you can't keep your stories straight on whether you don't have any coyotes or whether you have lots of them or whether you have head high grass for miles and miles or whether you have knee high grass or whether you don't have coyote problems or whether you solve numerous coyote problems???
Yeh, you bet!
Cdog: "I didn't figure that the self-appointed Grand Knight of All Things Coyote Calling would step up and tell us himself."
Leonard just told you I had already told the story. Again, speaks to your desperation.
So for the record, I could care less what you or your cheerleaders think of me because I place no value on your opinion. My record speaks for itself and I will continue to correct misleading and inaccurate information as it's presented. Count on it.
You can't get it done but you feel qualified to tell others how to do it and that's my issue of contention with you. Let that be you legacy. GO DAZZLE THEM LANCE!
In regards to the "world hunt", we didn't do any scouting and didn't find any coyotes. I think we managed to shoot one. What's your point? Is that what you were hoping for?
In regards to your spin on Krusty Klimber, I was the one who tried to help Krusy find his way to success while others were tired of his "I CAN'T" attitude. It was refreshing to see him pick up the traps and realize success. I WANTED HIM TO SUCCEED! Nice spin job! Another example of your desperation.
Your problem is obvious, you need to quit trying to pretend to be something you're not then I wouldn't have issues with you or others like you. People with experience can see through those who don't have experience but would like to think they do. You can continue to question my motive because that's always the inevitable spin when someone gets their toes stepped on. I have made myself perfectly clear on motive and the importance I place on accurate information.
~SH~
[ February 23, 2007, 06:35 AM: Message edited by: Wiley E ]
Posts: 853 | From: Kadoka, S.D | Registered: Feb 2003
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scruffy
Knows what it's all about
Member # 725
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posted February 23, 2007 07:07 AM
Coyote whacker, Let's look at what I said again.
quote:
anyway, we don't need any wildlife programs here and we don't need to pay someone to kill coyotes with taxes. There's more than enough dog wagons (both sight hounds and dogs that track on smell, mostly sniffers down here), spot/stalk, callers, trucks, etc to keep the coyote in check, atleast enough they don't cause mass killings requiring the govt to step in.
By "here" I meant Iowa.
And here's what you said:
quote:
Scruffy easy to say when you have small farms and feed lot type operations, it shows you know little of open range operations and most guys that have sheep in Iowa have less than 200 head, that is a generous figure and keep them real close to human activity, big differance in practices from Iowa and the western U.S.
I'm not sure why you took my comment on how things are here and the assumed that "it shows you know little of open range operations", maybe when I said "here" you thought I meant US instead of Iowa, even though the context of the statement was Iowa? I wasn't talking about open range operations or out west so I'm not sure how you know what I know and don't know about them?
quote:
I also had an Iowa license and ran my own ADC business, I took the test passed with flying colors. The DNR must see a need or why license private guys to do the work and charge? Problem is too many are cheap and think everything should be done free of charge, no matter the time involved or expertise.Many think I should have come at no cost to them, how is that better than those that pay into a program?
LOL, the DNR gave you the license not because there was a need, but because why the hell not??? Did you have to pay for the test? I imagine that was why they gave you a license and why it was so easy to get, and the DNR guy took your money will a big ol smile, LOL. Simple economics. (besides, isn't that "ADC" license more for coons in peoples crawl spaces under their house?)
And why would a farmer want to pay a couple hundred, few hundred, thousand, more?, for killing a coyote or two when he's not loosing that many calves to coyotes to begin with? There aren't enough sheep in the state to even make them worth mentioning, LOL. And there are lots of recreational callers and houndsman that will come out and do it for free when asked??? Simple economics.
And why would the farmers here benefit from paying into a program when nearly all farmers aren't seeing any "significant" problem that would warrant paying someone or a program to take care of it. The program would simply be taking money out of most the farmers operations, not adding money into them by signigigantly reducing losses because the current losses aren't signifigant. Simple economics.
quote:
I had plenty that called after calling the local CO and wanted me to drive 25-40 miles to solve a wildlife issue and balked at the notion I charged for my time, gas and services. Will a furnace repairman charge you if your not bright enough to figure out your pilot light is out and you had no heat? Or would he come free of charge and light it for you? If the electrican came to see why you had no lights or hot water and found the breaker was flipped is he comming free of charge? Or at the least are you getting a service call charge?
The farmers aren't willing to pay your price to fix the problem because the problem isn't costing them more than what you are charging. Again, simple economics.
quote:
Get real scruffy.
I take it your ADC operation in Iowa flopped?
And I might be picking up a new farm to call, farmer said he's having problems with coyotes, he was given my name by a farmer who's ground I call and have taken a few coyotes off of in the last year. I'm not charging the farmers to kill there coyotes, but they also don't charge me to hunt their ground. Works for me.
There's no money to be made here off of coyotes, but it sure opens gates and lets me hunt alot of places.
later,
scruffy
[ February 23, 2007, 10:00 AM: Message edited by: scruffy ]
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Git R Done
Posts: 361 | From: south central Iowa | Registered: Nov 2005
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nd coyote killer
HUNTMASTER PRO STAFF
Member # 40
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posted February 23, 2007 08:10 AM
Scott what hunt in ND did you win. I didn't know that you come up to any and would love to get a chance to compare some notes and run a few things by you. Do you still come up here to hunt any of them?
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"Sure are cocky for a starving pilgrim" - Bear Claw
Posts: 385 | From: On a hill | Registered: Jan 2003
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coyote whacker
Knows what it's all about
Member # 639
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posted February 23, 2007 01:19 PM
scruffy it is all not coyote depredation that is involved in ADC. You get lciensed in Iowa for many reasons, you can't trap beaver 365 or coyotes for that matter, only calling is open year round and you had to keep reports on all species killed and when.
You have skunks,coons,bats,muskrats in dikes etc, you can't kill any of them legally in Iowa year round except for calling coyotes. traps,snares etc all are under a season.
You get as many suburban complaints as you do rural and the cost has nothing to do with economic gain or loss to a degree. If someone wants a coon out of there attic, or a skunk from living in the ol shed eting cat food, you must make a determination as what the removal cost are worth to you, not all people want to deal with or have the means to deal with these things.
I'm not saying Iowa needs a program, I'm saying that as Iowa contiues to populate and more critters come knocking on the home, people need an avenue to go to, they must also relize that these are services and what can Joe homeowner 25 miles from your house on 12 acres offer you in return for services rendered?
Without a ADC license you can't help the farmer out with beaver complaints in the summer, sure he could wait until prime fur season, how much corn or trees is he willing to loose in the mean time? He needs to answer that question, or the golf course or new house by the pond with B&B trees that set them back 180.00-300.00 a pop how much is it worth to them to get rid of those beaver?
Many cities across the country are seeing major advancements in ADC type work as they expand housing developments, you see the rising need for this type of work and not many are going to do it for free just to be a nice guy are they? You going to remove bats from a house free of charge scruffy? If you are I'll give the names of 5 people in Iowa that will call you tomorrow. They would be than happy to have you come out and use your expertise.
Also I have some good friends who are real ethical hunters let me know where I can send them to bowhunt and shotgun hunt first season in southern Iowa free of charge to get that wall hanger.They would really like that and I'm sure offer you a small gift.
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This is done on my time and my dime. My views may differ from those of others!
Posts: 376 | From: USA | Registered: Apr 2005
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scruffy
Knows what it's all about
Member # 725
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posted February 23, 2007 01:51 PM
CW, I'm not interested in talking about other varmints or golf courses bats in roofs, I was talking about coyotes in this thread. Last I checked I can be a coyote hunter without being a bat hunter?
I can see this conversation, since it's now straying to talking about beavers, is near an end, LOL.
And I imagine I'm not interested in a "small gift" from some guys looking for a "free" buck hunt. Maybe they should try offering their "small gift" to the farmer, see if that helps???
It's ironic really, you complain that farmers want you to come out and remove varmints for free. Then you turn around and complain when farmers won't let you hunt their ground for free. If you feel you should charge for your service why shouldn't they charge for theirs, after all they fed the deer. They're not called corn fed deer for nothing.
later,
scruffy
[ February 23, 2007, 02:18 PM: Message edited by: scruffy ]
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Git R Done
Posts: 361 | From: south central Iowa | Registered: Nov 2005
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coyote whacker
Knows what it's all about
Member # 639
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posted February 23, 2007 02:44 PM
Problem being the deer cause them damage and they complain about the numbers, and when you have pay to hunt you don't get doe's shot no one is going to pay to shoot an anterless deer, so how are they helping themselves out by going to pay to hunt? They make money off of the racks and the problem contiues with the guise that I'm recouping my losses, a never ending cycle.
Wildlife programs entail more than just coyotes scruffy.You thought the license was just a ploy for the DNR take take money from sapps like me remember. If I remember right the license was 15.00 or 20.00 per year I'm betting barely enough to cover the administraion cost.
Beaver cause major economic loss nation wide, that is just a fact, if you like look up some research on them, look at Mass a state that outlawed trapping and see what the dollar figures of damage comes too in that state alone.Backed up sewage lines and waterways causing flooding. ADC entails more than just coyotes.
No one thinks they need assistance until it hits them in the pocket book, then they see the light.
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This is done on my time and my dime. My views may differ from those of others!
Posts: 376 | From: USA | Registered: Apr 2005
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Wiley E
Knows what it's all about
Member # 108
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posted February 23, 2007 03:02 PM
Tim,
Couple more things I forgot to address:
TB: "If you don't like the way Byron South chatters on his videos, don't buy them."
TB: "During your visit here last fall, you were accusing people of "Prostituting the Industry"
Let's talk about this for a minute. First off, I never addressed anyone specifically in my comment about "prostituion of the industry". I simply made the statement and I defined it as those who sell others hard work and knowledge for their own personal gain and notoriety. I also pointed out that some, not Lance, do not even bother to give credit to the originator of the information they sell. Worse yet, some misinterpret the information that they have received and bad mouth it on their videos because their too damn ignorant and inexperienced to understand how it works. Want an example? Leonard's "magic mist" was bad mouthed as a COVER SCENT when it's intent was a means to stop coyotes to create eyeshine during night calling. That is a perfect example of something that absolutely infuriates me. Not only a total lack of respect but an incredible amount of arrogance. If memory serves me correctly, Ronnie Robinson thanked me for taking the stand I did because he was obviously given the same shaft.
I didn't even know who Byron South was and he took exception to my comments and reacted as he did. I had never even heard of the guy! Now you are a smart guy Tim, you tell me how that would appear to you.
TB: "You don't like the Name that Ronnie Robison picked for a new call? Try coming up with your own name and market your own call!"
I have no problems with Ronnie Robinson, in fact I don't remember that I have ever met the guy other than what he posts on the forum. My issue is with the concept that a coyote would identify this sound as an "estrous chirp". I think the title is misleading. If you and others don't think so, WONDERFUL! WHAT A COUNTRY HUH? I had no idea that the "estrous chirp" concept was being marketed. Doesn't change my opinion.
I had a lot of time to think today about previous debates I have had on the internet.
Asa Lenon - on human scent.
Tell me Tim, do you think young trappers should be led to believe that they have to wear rubber boots and change out of them each time they make a set?
Ed Sceery on calling with the wind.
Tell me Tim, do you think young callers should be led to believe that they can successfully call coyotes WITH THE WIND in SD, ND, WY, and other states with similar habitat?
Should I have just laughed and went on my way?
Rich Cronk on what makes a good howler?
Do you think I was wrong to tell Rich Cronk about ways he could improve his call to minimize dead spots and pitch jumps? WHICH HE HAS BTW!
Rich Higgins on research studies.
Do you think I was wrong to challenge Rich Higgins on the validity of studies and how applicable the results of those studies are to areas outside of that "snapshot in time"?
Critics of the NTA.
Was I wrong to point out the truth about the NTA or should I have left baseless allegations remain unchallenged?
Critics of the Best Management Practices in trapping.
Was I wrong to point out the facts of how the bmp protocals were established and that bmps were not a conspiracy to end trapping but rather to save trapping?
Bob Wendt on everything. LOL!
Should I have let young trappers believe that 90% of the peg leg coyotes were caused by, brace yourself now, FENCE HANGING as in how deer get hung up on fences?
The list of debates and stepped on toes is long and distinguished but WHAT VALUE DO YOU PLACE ON SOMEONE CHALLENGING POPULIST OPINIONS????
Once again, keep in mind, you can change the channel.
Sure, you can argue that I could do it in a more "user friendly" manner but that's not me. I want to challenge people to defend their beliefs to see if they can back their position and to see if I might be wrong.
I have no problem being the "BILL MARTZ CLONE" or any other title you can come up with and I have no problems isolating myself from the herd if that's what it takes.
You see Tim, I was the recipient of some real bad information in the trapping fraternity thanks to the "fast buck artists" and it cost me dearly. I thank Craig O'Gorman for straightening me out on a lot of that bullsh*t and I learned one thing. If you want to learn about taking coyotes in numbers, you go to someone who is taking coyotes in numbers. For all the things I might criticize Craig for, he is a hell of a trapper and nobody can take that away from him.
One other thing I thought of, did you notice how Rich Cronk, Rich Higgins, Leonard, Cal Taylor, Q Wagoner and others who actually know me don't take offense? I have debated with every one of those guys. Doesn't that seem kinda strange to you? Those guys know my motives.
You have a good friend who dislikes me but I don't feel the same way about him and you know why? Because I believe he can back the smack. He gets critized for shooting a .17 but he stood his ground. He was criticized for continual calling instead of intermittent but he stood his ground. He was criticized for not utilizing howling but he stood his ground. He was criticized for not killing unprime coyotes but he stood his ground? I respect that! Does he kill coyotes? Damn straight he does. I saw his video and it's obvious he's been in the game. Regardless what he thinks of me, I respect him because I have enough experience to recognize his experience. His story didn't change!
So drum that around in your head for awhile and we'll finish this over a beer someday.
I can understand your disdain for WS and I don't take offense to that either. You're not trying to be somebody you are not and I know you fought the good fight for trapping. Your actions speak louder than any words.
edit: I just thought of something I need to add here...
Let me tell you a story. A couple years after we won Rawlins, I had to decline from going because my wife's folks 50th wedding anniversary was at the same time. Instead, my 2 former calling partners decided to go out and hunt the same area that we hunted when we won. Also let me add that the reason we won the year we did is because the wind was blowing which helped level the playing field. The year after we won, we called the same area. There was a sheep producer in the area and WS had been in there just before us and shot the hell out of the coyotes. I knew something was wrong because all I could pull in were loose ends. No family groups and no pairs. Didn't find out until later. Anyway, the next year my partners went and hunted the same area. I called a WS supervisor friend of mine who lives in Rock Springs to find out if WS had worked the area. He told me that this particular sheep producer had been having killing problems, that he had requested service, but that the plane was down for annual and he didn't think it would be in the air until Monday. WHOOPEE, I thought, my buddies are really going to kick butt. The night before the contest they called to tell me that they had located numerous family groups in the area and they were going to win this contest despite those with private leases. Keep in mind this is public ground. The next evening my partner called me and he was absolutely pissed. The first stand of the morning resulted in 3 coyotes running in with 2 other family groups in the waiting. Out of nowhere the WS plane shows up and rolls those coyotes right at their feet and went on to shoot the next two family groups they had located and most of the rest of the coyotes in the area. Can you imagine?
Now both of these partners of mine are cattlemen and both of them have requested my service in the past when they were too busy to remove problem coyotes because they both calve early in prime coyote country. I've even bought and fed their calves. The one partners calves I have bought and fed for 5 years. They both understand the ADC side of the coin and they both are passionate about coyote hunting. Imagine what a letdown it was to plan everything out, lay your money on the table in the calcutta, go to your honeyhole and watch WS roll those coyotes at your feet. To make matters worse, the plane buzzed their truck. Neither one of them will ever forget that incident.
My point? Don't you think for one second I don't know both sides of this coin. Personally, I would NEVER work a complaint like this during a contest hunt ESPECIALLY ON PUBLIC LAND. I would have the courtesy to wait until the boys were done or at least make sure nobody was calling there before I hunted. My partners claimed the WS man gave them the cold shoulder.
Do you know how I came to be partners with my most recent calling partner? When a lot of guys was cussing my previous partner and I for winning the biggest contest in SD 2 years in a row, he came up and shook our hands and congratulated us. I taught the man everything I know about coyotes and he's killed a pile since.
~SH~
[ February 23, 2007, 04:32 PM: Message edited by: Wiley E ]
Posts: 853 | From: Kadoka, S.D | Registered: Feb 2003
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Cal Taylor
Knows what it's all about
Member # 199
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posted February 23, 2007 03:21 PM
That last post may be the best of yours I have seen Scott. It sums things up pretty well. Posts that question the validity of people and things they post will get you booted from many places, as Higgins, Vic Carlson, and I already know. I'm glad for Leonards and the freedom to post as you see fit without the axe of the moderators looming. On the subject of Ronnie Robinson, he has been at the recieving end of some bad business, and knows well about stolen ideas. It happens, and will continue to happen to most guys that come up with new and valid concepts in the hunting industry. I respect O'Gorman also in the fact that if you read alot of his writings, he gives credit where credit is due. He may have changed something a bit to fit his style and location, or have improved something, but he knows where most of the stuff and ideas he uses originated and will say so.
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Democracy is two wolves and a lamb deciding what to have for lunch.
Liberty is a well armed lamb contesting the vote.
FoxPro Field Staff Member
Posts: 1069 | From: Wyoming | Registered: May 2003
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Wiley E
Knows what it's all about
Member # 108
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posted February 23, 2007 04:11 PM
nd: "Scott what hunt in ND did you win."
I honestly do not know the name of the town. I think it was New Salem but I'm not sure. I know it was W. of Bismark on the Interstate.
A friend, Todd Heid, invited me to the hunt and I called with his hunting partner. It was a cold and windy day. Imagine that huh? The type of conditions I love for contest hunting because it requires a changeup in strategy.
Actually, we tied for first with another team.
nd: "I didn't know that you come up to any and would love to get a chance to compare some notes and run a few things by you."
I'll send you an email. I'd enjoy visiting with a fellow "DAKOTON" YAH? I nose quite a few of dem dare chermans yah cuss I am von.
nd: "Do you still come up here to hunt any of them?"
Nope, that was my one and only ND coyote calling competition adventure.
Heids beat us in Rawlins a couple times so it was bitter sweet to beat them on their own turf with their hunting buddy as a partner.
Todd Heid is an excellent coyote hunter!
~SH~
Posts: 853 | From: Kadoka, S.D | Registered: Feb 2003
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Rich
2,000th post PAKMAN
Member # 112
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posted February 23, 2007 04:52 PM
"Do you think I was wrong to tell Rich Cronk about ways he could improve his call to minimize dead spots and pitch jumps? WHICH HE HAS BTW!"
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Scott,
I still think about that deal fairly often. That little rift turned out to be a good thing for me and for coyote callers. And to realize that the whole thing started when you stated that the PERFECT howler had not yet been invented. The PERFECT howler STILL hasn't been invented, but I'm still working on it.
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If you call the coyotes in close, you won't NEED a high dollar range finder.
Posts: 2854 | From: Iowa | Registered: Feb 2003
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