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Author
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Topic: Kansas predator loss thread
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Cdog911
"There are some ideas so absurd only an intellectual could believe them."--George Orwell.
Member # 7
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posted February 23, 2007 07:07 PM
Scott,
No desperation here, friend. Just stating a fact because there are a lot of guys watching this thread, getting to know you and what you're really about, that weren't on the old Shade Tree board, or weren't at Predator Masters when that thread first came out. In fact, at the time, I hadn't the foggiest idea who you were.
It was only after you came to HM and started your crusades that one of these guys connected the dots for me. I just think it's important that before someone gives you their loyalty, that they know what you're about.
And Rich, I'm glad you're such a forgiving soul. I'm not, especially en lieu of the venomous attacks this man has decided to direct at me. It's ironic that I can be singled out because he has an unsubstantiated critical personal opinion about me and what I do, whereas you are critical toward me when I state an incontravertible fact of record, supopoirted by his admission and a public apology. Hell, my kids both knew by 3 years of age that apologies are hollow when you should have known better than to do it in the first place. It's one thing to make a mistake. It's something else entirely to willfully do something with the intent to violate a rule.
How about this: Scott, I'm sorry you don't like me.
There. Does that make things all better now? LOL
Re Krusty and you remarks. Don't try to make yourself look all warm and fuzzy now, Scott. You attempted to burn me by using K as your point of reference. I appreciate your helping the man out, and you're right when you say that most all of us had given up on him when you chose to help him along. That was a nice thing to do and I applaud your efforts. But, you still said what you said and meant it the way I took it, and I doubt that I'm alone in that assessment. Maybe an apology would make things all better.
I have a question for you, Scott? Have you ever been hunting in the eastern half of Kansas? More specifically, the area I hunt? It is a unique area as far as the amount of farm ground versus pasture, river bottom, creek and timber.
A simple yes or no will suffice.
The reason I inquire is because a lot of guys that hunt north and west of me in typical "western" areas are quick to accuse me of making excuses about that 11%. Some of those same guys have come here and not fared too well. Not because they aren't excellent callers. They are, and their skills as callers have little to do with the results because of other extraneous factors.
I'd just like to know what your first hand experience is in this part of this state? I'm not talking cornfields in eastern S or ND. I've hunted corn circles in NE and it's a world of difference. Those are focal points for coyotes and a predictable draw for predators whereas my coyotes have a veritable buffet of prey sources around here. Mainly, I want to know your qualifications for being critical of my numbers. You're damned quick to attack, but where's your on-site experience?
I think it's important that we compare apples to apples here, once and for all, despite your insistance that we compare apples (ND) to oranges (E. KS). That way, we have an accurate representation of who can and cannot call. Admittedly, I've never hunted in SD, but I have friends that hunt up that way every other year or so and they tell me that there and NE are relatively similar. So, if you will indulge me, allow me to work some numbers for you using my time in NE as my "western" experience.
Bear in mind that this is a little "study". The variable being assessed is location and its influence on calling success. All other things are equal. I'm doing the calling, all daytime, same time of the year and as we know, a coyote is a coyote is a coyote....
You know my numbers here. Let's review so you don't have to look back. Coyotes called and seen on 30% of stands. Of those called, 38% killed. Number killed relative to total stands called? 11%. yeah, I know. Same ol', same ol'.
Compare that to my numbers under similar conditions up your way. All are from hunting with your friend and compadre Q who you hold in the highest regard. Me, too. I verified these numbers with him earlier today in a phone call while he and Shaw are down in TX just to make sure I was accurate.
We've hunted a total of four days together, making a total of 42 stands. From those stands, I called 38 coyotes. (Q makes me do all the calling. I let him do the shooting. Play to our strengths sort of thing.) Of the 38 coyotes we've called, 20 are dead. (We killed two more that we bumped, but twenty were called and killed.)
Crunching those numbers where comparing apples to apples, good country versus where I live...
I called coyotes on 90% of those stands. Of those called, we killed at a rate of 53%, and compared to total stands, we killed on 48% of stands when I was calling.
Now, let's go back and look at your earlier statement that you aren't satisfied unless you see coyotes on 50% of stands, and if you kill at least 50% of those seen. Ya know? That's really a pretty legitimate objective right there, but when you do the math, 50% of 50%, half of half, is only a quarter, or 25%. (How many of the rest of you caught that when he first said it?Teeeewist!)
I can only presume that you picked a safe number that probably reflects your actual numbers otherwise it might be difficult to defend, and you haven't told us your numbers yet one way or another, but when I compare my numbers against your personal expectations, it...kinda...looks....like I,.... Hey! I'm not doing too bad by your assessment up there!!! You only expect to kill on a fourth of your stands and I'm gettin' 'er done on nearly half!
Admittedly, I bet your numbers are at least as good and I'm just yanking your chain, but the numbers I cite for myself are accurate and provable. Just ask Q. My point is that a guy from here can go there and do that well, with everything else being the same. The same technique. The same sounds. Same strategies. The only difference is the landscape. In fact, I don't even argue that Q has more coyotes there than we do. I think we're about equal. In fact, we may have more. Why the responses are so vastly different here is open to pure conjecture, and I've attempted that, more as an exercise in fun, but you just have to refute and reject everything because all you hear are "excuses". Especially interesting when you have no first hand experience here. At least, I admit I can tell you nothing about SD coyotes.
As far as the issue of my story changing, you're incorrigible. LOL Stubborn as hell, too. It never has changed. Maybe I used one word in place of another, but I don't see that the intent of the phrase ever changed. At least, not anywhere but in your perception. You are really very good at what you do in twisting the facts. I have to hand you that one. That's ironic, too, since you're the calling crusader when it comes to challenging what the literature says and to trust no one. But, whatever gets your point across, huh? You'll step on whoever's toes you can to be the alpha dog. LMAO
You told me a day or two back to put my money where my mouth is. Okay. In a manner of speaking. I presume you'll be at St. Francis this next time around. Long ways from home, huh?
Matt and I would like to invite you and your partner to hunt our land. All 58,000 acres of it. It's all yours. We'll guide you and get you to all the best places we have. I say that sincerely. You trust and respect Q and he knows me well. My word is as good as gold that I'll get you to our best places and he'll back that up. You know Brent Rueb. He went to several of those places - the opnes the mud would allow us to get to - just a month ago and commented on how good some of them looked and the tracks we had around. He'll vouch for their being coyotes around. Now, I can't offer any security that we won't encounter dog wagons. We have to share and share alike around here adn that's just the cross we bear. If we do, I'll introduce you to those guys. They think highly of gubmint trappers. LOL
Since you say that you think 6-8 coyotes a day up there is a decent day for a good caller, and you say that we have more coyotes here than you do in SD, I don't see 8 coyotes a day as being a big problem. Eight coyotes the first day and maybe a paltry two on Sunday morning before you have to head back oughtta put you in good standing at check in, shouldn't it? I've never in over 39 years hunting seen anyone kill ten coyotes in that time frame around here - not even the dog wagons - but we'll get you on the ground and you can do your best to get 'er done. How about it? Your statements against mine. What you know versus what I don't. Braggin' rights. I'll even pay for your motel lodging Saturday night. You let me know.
Oh, and before I sign off, I saw something you should be made aware of today. Several of my mail customers subscribe to Petersen's Hunting magazine, and they have an article in the new issue starting on page 66 entitled, "Song Dog Savvy" by M.D. Johnson. In that article, he interviews, cites, quotes and relies heavily upon statements and opinions by a guy named Chad Belding from Ohio-based Zink Calls.
I think you oughtta punch both those rat bastards square in the mouth.
Crusade on!!!
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I am only one. But still, I am one. I cannot do everything, but still, I can do something; and, because I cannot do everything, I will not refuse to do something that I can do.
Posts: 5438 | From: The gun-lovin', gun-friendly wild, wild west | Registered: Jan 2003
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Rich
2,000th post PAKMAN
Member # 112
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posted February 23, 2007 07:50 PM
"And Rich, I'm glad you're such a forgiving soul. I'm not, especially en lieu of the venomous attacks this man has decided to direct at me. It's ironic that I can be singled out because he has an unsubstantiated critical personal opinion about me and what I do, whereas you are critical toward me when I state an incontravertible fact of record, supopoirted by his admission and a public apology. Hell, my kids both knew by 3 years of age that apologies are hollow when you should have known better than to do it in the first place. It's one thing to make a mistake. It's something else entirely to willfully do something with the intent to violate a rule."
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Lance,
I was simply pointing out the fact that Scott had already admitted to his mistake. That was a long time ago. Scott is having some fun with you now, and I'm sure he knows that the portion of kansas that you call is a lot different than the areas located west of you. You are trying to call pressured coyotes in a difficult area. Not many men understand what it is like trying to call pressured coyotes better than I do. I'm sure that Scott understands that also.
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If you call the coyotes in close, you won't NEED a high dollar range finder.
Posts: 2854 | From: Iowa | Registered: Feb 2003
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scruffy
Knows what it's all about
Member # 725
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posted February 23, 2007 08:35 PM
CW - quote:
Problem being the deer cause them damage and they complain about the numbers, and when you have pay to hunt you don't get doe's shot no one is going to pay to shoot an anterless deer, so how are they helping themselves out by going to pay to hunt?
My gosh, if no one is going to pay to shoot an antlerless deer then who is buying the tens of thousands of doe tags sold every year, thousands of them to non residents???
I guess alot of people pay to shoot does, ALOT of people, LOL.
quote:
Wildlife programs entail more than just coyotes scruffy.You thought the license was just a ploy for the DNR take take money from sapps like me remember. If I remember right the license was 15.00 or 20.00 per year I'm betting barely enough to cover the administraion cost.
Over the years I've bought many "free" landowner deer tags, paying only a $1 administration fee. So I doubt it takes $20 to administrate an ADC renewal.
quote:
Beaver cause major economic loss nation wide, that is just a fact, if you like look up some research on them, look at Mass a state that outlawed trapping and see what the dollar figures of damage comes too in that state alone.Backed up sewage lines and waterways causing flooding. ADC entails more than just coyotes.
Now honestly, do you get alot of beaver calls?
later,
scruffy
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Git R Done
Posts: 361 | From: south central Iowa | Registered: Nov 2005
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coyote whacker
Knows what it's all about
Member # 639
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posted February 23, 2007 08:46 PM
Scruffy you know I wasn't talking license sales, I'm talking paying to hunt on ground to shoot those doe's and if thats happening you have quite the gig going on there for sure LOL. Or was it that no one you new charged for hunting?
Someone has to look over the reports filed and get out license renewals,mailing cost, cost to print the license etc. Considering Iowa may have 30 or so licensed ADC people thats a whopping 600.00 a year. Someone has to be in charge of it all correct?
Now honestly, do you get alot of beaver calls?
Beaver complaints in this area goes with the weather, when we have water in the creeks yes beaver complaints can get pretty busy, trees are at a premium and ranchers don't want beavers chewing them up. I know guys in this state that respond to 80+ beaver complaints a year. In the month of october 2 guys answered 22 complaints in 1 month, is that enough for you?
The most beaver complaints I have worked at 1 time is 5 in a week, not even remotely close to each other. I have areas where you can take them all out and they keep comming back to the same watershed.
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This is done on my time and my dime. My views may differ from those of others!
Posts: 376 | From: USA | Registered: Apr 2005
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TA17Rem
Hello, I'm the legendary Tim Anderson, Field Marshall, Southern Minneesota Sector
Member # 794
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posted February 23, 2007 09:19 PM
Cdog: You said you called or seen 74 coyotes and killed 28 coyotes. with a call in on 1 of every 3 stands. So that leaves you with 46 coyotes that have been conditioned to the call, i can see why they are a little more difficult to call in a second time.
I'm not near as good as you or Scott but i have called my share of conditioned coyotes and i think you are not telling them what they want to hear.
Years ago in S.D. when the calling was good i would get a coyote in on 1 out of every four stands but today its more like 1 every 10 stands and they are not the young of the year, mostly old male and once in awhile a old female.
They have alot of contests in the areas that i hunt and the ranchers that give me permission say go ahead but i don't think you will have much luck since there where two to three teems in there ahead of me. Did i shoot alot of coyotes,no. but i did get two from one ranch and one each from four other ranches. These i would say where pressured coyotes and i told them what they wanted to hear.
When in Az i was also told they have alot of pressured coyotes, but again i was able to call some in and so did Rich H.. I know my calling skills sucked compared to Rich H. and he was proably chuckleing when i was calling, but the sounds i produced got the job done.. Something different and thats what the coyotes wanted in order to respond.
I would think that if Scott would come down there he would do very well, but i can't speak for Scott. Now lets say Scott did come down there and does what you don't think he can do, then what! Well you bow to the master so to speak, and listen to the man or keep on doing what you are doing now?
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What if I told you, the left wing and right wing both belong to same bird!
Posts: 5081 | From: S.D. | Registered: Jan 2006
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TA17Rem
Hello, I'm the legendary Tim Anderson, Field Marshall, Southern Minneesota Sector
Member # 794
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posted February 23, 2007 09:22 PM
I thought we where talking coyotes here.
Beaver complaints everyone has them where there is beavers, no big deal!
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What if I told you, the left wing and right wing both belong to same bird!
Posts: 5081 | From: S.D. | Registered: Jan 2006
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scruffy
Knows what it's all about
Member # 725
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posted February 23, 2007 09:33 PM
CW - quote:
Scruffy you know I wasn't talking license sales, I'm talking paying to hunt on ground to shoot those doe's and if thats happening you have quite the gig going on there for sure LOL. Or was it that no one you new charged for hunting?
If people are willing to pay for the tag they'll be willing to pay for the ground, if they don't have any friends or relatives or can't ask really nicely and knock on some door to find a farmer that's willing to let the hunt for free. It's their only legal option, if you're not willing to pay for the ground don't pay for the tag.
And yes, I don't understand the "gig" the DNR's got going, but thousands of doe tags are bought by non residents, at a couple hundred a pop for the tag and the license, I don't know why, it baffles me, it really does, I don't know where these people are coming from, but they come, alot of them. ![[Confused]](confused.gif) I wish I had an answer but don't, it's one of the DNR's cash cows.
And once they get here, if they haven't found a place to hunt before coming out here, are caught over a barrel, and the old saying "beggers can't be choosers" is true. And some farmers know it and make you pay. Surprised?
Edit: if you go back and look at my original post I believe I asked if you had out of state plates and said that I've been known to charge out of staters to hunt my ground. So it certainly wasn't me that said I din't know of anyone that charged to deer hunt, LOL.
You know, when an Iowan goes out west he often has to pay a "tresspass fee" or whatever you want to call it to hunt pdogs, coyotes, pheasants, whatever on private land to the landowner.
Why is it different for you when you come from the west to Iowa??? We don't eat pdogs when we go out west. Atleast you get to bring home corn fed deer, LOL.
later,
scruffy
[ February 23, 2007, 09:49 PM: Message edited by: scruffy ]
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Git R Done
Posts: 361 | From: south central Iowa | Registered: Nov 2005
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scruffy
Knows what it's all about
Member # 725
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posted February 23, 2007 10:00 PM
CW - Hers's what you originally said and what I originally said:
quote:
Last time I hunted southern Iowa, deer crawling all over themselves on a late season doe only hunt we actually had a few that wanted 100.00 per doe shot on their place LOL!
"actually had a few" A few??? Just a few??? From your later posts you'd think it was all of them, LOL. ![[Wink]](wink.gif)
My original response:
quote:
Did you drive up to the farmer with out of state plates? (If I see out of state plates I either say "no" or "show me the $$$". )
I don't have a problem finding ground to hunt deer on here (southern Iowa), more and more the farmers I ask to coyote hunt on ask me if I deer hunt and want to take some deer off also (I usually decline).
You're just talking this issue to talk... just like all this beaver talk. There's no point to it. We often pay to hunt private ground out west, you'll do the same here sometimes, who cares, it's the age we live in.
later,
scruffy
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Git R Done
Posts: 361 | From: south central Iowa | Registered: Nov 2005
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TA17Rem
Hello, I'm the legendary Tim Anderson, Field Marshall, Southern Minneesota Sector
Member # 794
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posted February 23, 2007 10:40 PM
Scruffy: I think the reason behind the DNR giveing out alot of doe tags is because most of the local deer hunters are after the horns and not enough does get harvested.
The same thing goes on in S.D. too many bucks are shot and too many does left running around and that can be a big problem. So its up to the out of state guys to fix youre problem. The reason for most of the out of state doe hunters is they are just looking for some meat for the freezer and a enjoyable hunt.
I hunt alot in S.D. and not all land owners charge to hunt, but as a curtasey we give money for the access and i think thats the way it should be. If i have a good hunt and enjoyed the my time there i pay what its worth to me.
There are some land owners that want money to hunt coyotes, i say no thanks and move on and if everyone else did the same we would'nt have this problem with haveing to pay for everything we hunt. In time there would be to many animals for there property and they would want us to come and help thin the herd for free or atleast at a affordable price.
I was at a gun show once and a guy from the Elk foundation asked me if i wanted to donate, i said hell no, why would i want to help the elk foundation when i can't even afford to hunt in the states that have elk. Most of the guys here save up for years so they can afford to go on a hunt of a lifetime. If i want a elk bad enough i'll just go to one of the local elk farms and buy one, its a whole lot cheaper....
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What if I told you, the left wing and right wing both belong to same bird!
Posts: 5081 | From: S.D. | Registered: Jan 2006
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coyote whacker
Knows what it's all about
Member # 639
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posted February 24, 2007 06:45 AM
Scruffy this was when I was a resident of Iowa not comming from the west with out of state tags!
Your comment on that is the way it is.
Hunting numbers will dwindle as more acception of pay to hunt spreads, hard to get kids involved when people want to charge 1,000 or more to go on a deer hunt or any other type of a hunt. The kids are the future of hunting and are the ones that will help with wildlife funding in the future, that or people will pay more in taxes that simple.
The beaver issue you don't want to talk about but it is fact.
TA17 beavers can be a really big deal to landowners.
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This is done on my time and my dime. My views may differ from those of others!
Posts: 376 | From: USA | Registered: Apr 2005
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scruffy
Knows what it's all about
Member # 725
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posted February 24, 2007 11:11 AM
TA, actually the last two years according to the DNR the harvest (not tags sold, but actual harvest figures) of antlerless deer has been just ahead of the harvest of bucks. If you look at the numbers it's like 50% antlerless and 50% bucks, with only a slight lead to the antlerless deer, so IMHO it's a tie, but they call it a victory. I can't remember the exact numbers of antlerless tags sold, but it was less than 5% of the antlerless tags went to out of staters if I remember right. If I remember when I'm on a fast connection I'll do some searches on the IDNR site and get the numbers.
The "hush" program (help us stop hunger or something like that) by the DNR has really helped get the antlerless deer population up. The DNR and alot of private donations pay private lockers to process deer that are brought in donated to "hush" by hunters. The deer are processed and given to food banks, shelters, prisons (to lower taxes?), etc. So most (if not nearly all) of the serious deer hunters I know get their anysex tag and one or more antlerless tags. When they shoot a doe or button buck they gut it and take it to a locker participating in the program and donate it.
I don't know if other states have this program, but it has helped tramendously get the antlerless harvest way up. Like I said, it's pretty much 50/50 antlerless/buck harvest with does a slighter leader the last two years. And the food banks and shelters and such get meat they need without having to use their donated income to pay for it. It's a win all the way around. I don't think anyone is a looser.
beaver whacker, there's two causes of the farmers charging trend. One is some see it as a means to make a little extra income. Two (and this is the one I see alot more in my area), hunters that tear stuff up. Stretching or tearing down fences, leaving gates open, driving all over the farm rutting up fields, leaving trash and cans, etc.
My dad use to let anyone that knocked on his door hunt his place, didn't matter who they were. But after 3 years in a row of he and I fixing fences they stretched, replacing wood posts they broke, leaving gates open, etc, he says no to everyone that knocks on his door and puts locks on the outside field gates after the crops are out.
And when I ask permission to hunt coyotes I typically spend the first 5 or 10 minutes promissing I won't tear stuff up or trash it up and have to swear on my first born that I won't drive anything onto their property. So far I've always been successful assuring them I won't, and I don't, but a few times I was sure I was going to walk back to my truck being declined because the farmer had been burnt bad by previous hunters.
So you can cry the farmers are hurting hunting, IMHO we're doing alot of it to ourselves and need to police ourselves much better, somehow, I don't know how, but we have a problem amongst are ranks of hunters that needs fixed.
later,
scruffy
[ February 24, 2007, 11:27 AM: Message edited by: scruffy ]
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Git R Done
Posts: 361 | From: south central Iowa | Registered: Nov 2005
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nd coyote killer
HUNTMASTER PRO STAFF
Member # 40
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posted February 24, 2007 12:21 PM
Scott I use to hunt the New Salem tourney every year it had a lot of good competitoin there. I've known todd now for about five years he a real good guy and yes a real good coyote hunter
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"Sure are cocky for a starving pilgrim" - Bear Claw
Posts: 385 | From: On a hill | Registered: Jan 2003
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sdyote
Knows what it's all about
Member # 814
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posted February 24, 2007 12:56 PM
Scott,
You stated that the year you won Rawlins was because the wind blew and leveled the playing field. Would you go into more detail as to why you feel that way? I'm assuming that you feel the wind blowing gives you an advantage over most other callers? If so, how do you change your tactics to be a more effective caller in the wind? Only reason I ask is because I'm one of the callers that struggles once the wind gets over that 15mph which happens quite often here is So Dak.
Posts: 22 | From: Gann Valley, SD | Registered: Mar 2006
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Wiley E
Knows what it's all about
Member # 108
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posted February 24, 2007 01:37 PM
quote:
Lance: "Compare that to my numbers under similar conditions up your way. All are from hunting with your friend and compadre Q who you hold in the highest regard. Me, too. I verified these numbers with him earlier today in a phone call while he and Shaw are down in TX just to make sure I was accurate.
We've hunted a total of four days together, making a total of 42 stands. From those stands, I called 38 coyotes. (Q makes me do all the calling. I let him do the shooting. Play to our strengths sort of thing.) Of the 38 coyotes we've called, 20 are dead. (We killed two more that we bumped, but twenty were called and killed.)
Crunching those numbers where comparing apples to apples, good country versus where I live...
I called coyotes on 90% of those stands. Of those called, we killed at a rate of 53%, and compared to total stands, we killed on 48% of stands when I was calling."
The above quote is a textbook example of exactly what bothers me about you IN REGARDS TO COYOTE HUNTING.
Keep in mind that I don't know anything about YOU as a person outside of the realm of coyote hunting so don't throw this personal "I DON'T LIKE YOU" (as a person) bullsh*t out there because that dog won't hunt either. If you and I were to discuss ag economics, we might be on the same page on everything. So I am not judging YOU as a person BEYOND THE REALM OF COYOTE HUNTING. Get that perfectly clear in your mind.
I think, based on what I see and read, within the realm of coyote hunting, you try to be something you're not and this is a textbook case of that.
In the above example, you want to take credit for Q's numbers. THOSE AREN'T YOUR NUMBERS LANCE!!!
QUINTON DID THE SHOOTING, NOT YOU! YOU ADMITTED THAT.
QUINTON OBVIOUSLY PICKED THE LOCATIONS because this is his area and the coyotes that he knows.
You cannot take credit for his stands or his shooting, period!
Anyone can blow the call Lance. That's not where it's at. Hell, set the Fox Pro down and turn it on. How much simpler can that be? Knowing the coyotes in the area, picking the stands, determining the approach, and getting them shot is where it's at. You didn't contribute to those numbers by simply blowing the call. I KNOW THAT!
Really, just how stupid do you think I am let alone anyone else reading this?
If you went to Q's area on your own on a single trip and had to pick the stands and do the shooting, THERE IS NO WAY IN HELL YOU WOULD DUPLICATE THOSE NUMBERS until you were familiar with the area MAYBE. I repeat, until you were familar with the area giving you the benefit of the doubt.
Heck Lance, I couldn't duplicate those numbers UNTIL I figured the area and the coyotes out.
You can't do that overnight which is why we fell on our face at the World contest. If I can find the coyotes, I can eventually figure out the combination of technique and sound to kill them, PERIOD. You don't learn the coyotes in an area on a first trip.
You know, I'm actually starting to feel a little
guilty about introducing you to you so let me help bail you out.
I will be the first to admit that not every place is the same. I don't think you can find anyone that understands that any better than I do because I understand most of the variables that affect calling success from one place to the next. Coyote numbers, calling pressure, topography, human disturbance, other hunting pressure, prey availability, habitat, human exposure, prey/habitat interrelations, and the list goes on and on. I UNDERSTAND VARIABLES THAT LIMIT SUCCESS INTIMATELY!
When someone compared my FORMER coyote numbers, WHEN I HAD COYOTES, to those ADC guys in SD who had far less coyotes and much more difficult circumstances to overcome, I was the first to point out the ignorance of those critics in comparing apples to watermelon numbers and I was the one who gave the lower number guys the credit they were due.
I can remember the spin one of the lower number guys had and he was right to a point from a sheep production area standpoint. He used to say, "hell, if I was an ADC supervisor and one of my trappers was bringing in coyotes like that, I'd fire his ass". Basically saying that big piles of dead coyotes mean big piles of dead sheep. If the trapper was doing his job, he wouldn't have those kinds of numbers was his point but I could argue the other side of that too (size district, access, complaint numbers, etc. etc.) He was still making a point that simply comparing numbers is a quick show of ignorance without considering the variables involved.
Here, let me tell you a story that will make you feel better of coyotes pulling my pants down to my ankles and they have done it many many times and they will continue to do it. Guaranteed. When I was in the world hunt, I called NE of the 4 corners monument overlooking the San Juan river. The river bottom looked better than anything else I could find. We started calling and I heard coyotes behind and above me, I looked up at the mountain of rocks behind me and there they sat like little statues looking down on us saying, what the hell are you guys doing? I looked at my partner and we started laughing. We moved to a different spot and managed to call one down from the top and shot it. Little tiny looking thing. The rest of the day we spent calling with one of us on each side of the canyon without locating any coyotes. We didn't have any luck but I don't even know if they were there or how much pressure they had on them. The next day, we drove up a sandy wash that was somewhat froze and did some calling but we had to retreat because the bottom started thawing and we were afraid we were going to get stuck. I couldn't even see the area beyond that canyon so I had no idea what the surrounding area even looked like. None of the teams that did any good were calling where we were.
If I lived closer to that area, you can bet your bottom dollar that I'd figure out a way to kill a high percentage of those coyotes because I NEVER have trouble finding them.
I don't make any excuses for my lack of success at the Predator Masters hunt in Globe, I didn't know the area but given time, I'd figure it out. I always do. Give me the coyotes and I'll compete with anyone, anywhere.
The reason your stories don't match is you can't accept the fact that maybe you're not quite as good as you could be and maybe you're conditions will never allow the success you want to achieve. That's no excuse for trying to be someone you're not and that's why you can't decide whether you have "a lot of coyotes" or whether "they're aren't any". Anybody can read what you wrote Lance and anyone can see the direct contradictions. Nobody is trying to spin your statements in your defense because words mean things.
Anywhere you have coyotes, they can be called and shot but that doesn't mean you can call them in large numbers in some places because IT TAKES LARGE NUMBERS TO KILL LARGE NUMBERS.
Anyone East of the Missouri River is not going to experience the success rates we used to enjoy in SD. Nobody is going to enjoy the success rates in SD that they enjoy in SW Texas. You can't compare apples to watermelons but you also don't need to look for excuses.
I'm sure that it's not easy for a dedicated caller from Minnesota to see the pictures of large takes of coyotes in SW Texas where they are as thick as fleas. Heck, I'd get more personal satisfaction out of going to Harding Co. in SD (high sheep production areas) and killing 2 or 3 in a day than killing 6 - 9 in a day here. That would be a far greater accomplishment.
The only true means of comparison is to compare your success to another highly skilled coyote caller in the same area at the same time under the same conditions as in competitive hunting which still doesn't sort out the variables of hunting pressure and coyote numbers.
Despite your contradictions, I know you have numbers because the greyhound guys couldn't rack them up if you didn't. If you didn't have coyotes in numbers, THEY WOULDN'T FEED THOSE DOGS YEAR ROUND. Some things are obvious without ever setting foot there if you know what to look for.
I also know that you don't have head high bluestem all over because you quickly corrected yourself when called on that because someone was sharp enough to know that head high bluestem would create a situation that would not be condusive to dog hunting.
You can't skin excuses so just be honest about the limits of your abilities and accept your 11% figure.
On your offer, HAHAHAHA! Why would I give up 3 years of scouting and a game plan that's going to work under the right circumstances so you can revel in my working an area blind. Hahaha!
I got one better, why don't you enter the contest and call your area? Heck I know a team that's driving to Broken Bow, NE. Put your money where your mouth is and if you can't do it in your area, go to Quinton's area. I'm sure he'd appreciate you buzzing up his coyotes. Hahaha! He's in Texas and can't defend himself.
~SH~
[ February 24, 2007, 01:47 PM: Message edited by: Wiley E ]
Posts: 853 | From: Kadoka, S.D | Registered: Feb 2003
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Wiley E
Knows what it's all about
Member # 108
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posted February 24, 2007 02:01 PM
quote:
sdyote: "You stated that the year you won Rawlins was because the wind blew and leveled the playing field. Would you go into more detail as to why you feel that way? I'm assuming that you feel the wind blowing gives you an advantage over most other callers? If so, how do you change your tactics to be a more effective caller in the wind? Only reason I ask is because I'm one of the callers that struggles once the wind gets over that 15mph which happens quite often here is So Dak."
First of all, I should have corrected that statement to read "because the wind blew HARD". The wind always blows in Wyoming.
First, you need to understand how sound carries from a coyote's standpoint. Wind, weather, and topography all affect how far sound carries.
Instead of calling as we normally do against the wind, we found a canyon running East/West with the wind from the North and made 10 minute stands working our way from the East to the West. We do a lot of walking. A LOT OF WALKING! I won't call with anyone who can't walk at least 10 miles in a day dragging coyotes.
You risk coyotes getting your wind on the first stand but after that, you can usually pick them off before they get your scent. Strong winds break up scent cones and coyotes don't get your scent in strong winds like they do in light breezes. Coyotes also respond differently in stronger winds. They don't want to circle downwind and travel any more than they have to either. I also use sounds that penetrate the wind but I will not elaborate on that.
Coyotes cannot hear the vehicle noise as well either so you can get by driving closer to your stands. This all comes with experience.
~SH~
[ February 24, 2007, 02:04 PM: Message edited by: Wiley E ]
Posts: 853 | From: Kadoka, S.D | Registered: Feb 2003
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Cdog911
"There are some ideas so absurd only an intellectual could believe them."--George Orwell.
Member # 7
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posted February 24, 2007 02:25 PM
Tim,
You said, "You said you called or seen (called, I don't count the 'seens' in these figures) 74 coyotes and killed 28 coyotes. with a call in on 1 of every 3 stands. So that leaves you with 46 coyotes that have been conditioned to the call, i can see why they are a little more difficult to call in a second time."
First off, thank God for the new tabbed browsing feature on the upgraded IE program. Before now, it was Firefox or doing things the hard way. LOL
Anyway, to what you wrote. For a long time, that was a concern of mine, and one that I agree still has some impact to a certain extent. But I've gone back to those places, called over that same spot from a different angle, a different place, at a different time of day and with different sounds - sometimes the same day - and still called what I feel are members of that same group back in and scored kills.
Last year brings two in particular to mind. I brought in a pair and had ample time to look them both over, noting that one had a prominent patch of hair loss on the right hip. I chose the other, even if it was fifty yards further away, and killed it. The first one wanted nothing to do with ki-yi's and whoops to give me a chance at a double, so I refrained from wild running shots and let her go. A couple hours later, I went to the bottom of that section where I was pretty sure that coyote had gone for refuge, and approached it from the opposite direction where I sat down and gave just two lost puppy howls. (For the record, I have no idea what a lost puppy sounds like, nor do I know how the sound I made was interpreted by other coyotes in the area, but I know what I would sound like if I was a young coyote and on my own and so I made a lone howl* that was particularly sad, distressed and mournful, then waited.) It took him a while, but about twenty minutes later, a coyote came cruising across, forty yards in front of me with its head up telescoping and looking all about. I shot it and when I got to it, I rolled it over and found that it had a big hairless spot on the right hip. I managed to do that several times the past few years and have become convinced that coyotes have shorter memories than most of us give them discredit for.
Earlier in the season, I called a group of four young of the year coyotes that all bore identical black blanket back markings. I killed one and shot like hell for a double, but didn't connect. Over the next three weeks, Matt and I managed to go back there and mop up the other three, two on the same day about an hour and three hundred yards apart. If they had a growing aversion to calling, they sure didn't show it. I know it happens, but it isn't a hard and fast rule in my experience.
* - why do we call them "lone howls" since we generally offer them in sets of two? Lonesome howl really isn't any better since we don't know if we sound like or are perceived as lonely at all. We may just sound "talkative".
Based upon my own observations in this area, I think the call shyness comes not so much from being called at, by me or anyone else, but by being shot at time and again, from the first day of dove season to the end of January, by everything human that drives by. You used to be able to get "a" deer tag, which you would go out, fill, and go home. Deer season was ten days long, only had one, and it was often surprising if I ran into deer hunters at all while out calling. Winters and Falls were cold and the only decent weeks for hunting pheasants and quail were the first two weekends, after which everyone hung their shotguns up and waited for the Spring turkey season.
Nowadays, you can get as many as five deer tags and the weather has been so nice that everyone is running dogs, hunting pheasants every weekend and often times on weekdays. They've added not only extra days to the deer season, but in some units, they've actually added extra seasons. Lease hunting has locked the gates on much of the area forcing all those five tag deer hunters onto the same shrinking amount of real estate as I'm trying to call on. Even open range is no refuge. This year, I was sneaking into this big four square pasture to call and rounded this hill only to find this huge custom motorhome anchored down with their TV antenna up and the generator running. Now that's roughing it.
I was surprised this year not to see even more of an increase in dog wagon contacts as I did last season when a lot of those gusy stayed close to home because of gas prices. But, they were about the same this year as last, which was a sharp increase from the year prior. In talking with them, they said that the better price on coyotes north and west couldn't offset $3 a gallon gas for them. This year, the blizzard shut down much of the areas they usually hit, as well as mange in NE, causing them to stay at home after Christmas, which worked out okay for them since we saw a slight increase in our coyote prices in response to the short harvest caused by the blizzard and the bugs.
Coyote hunters aside, everyone that leaves a truck in this state seems to feel the need to shoot a coyote in the ass on sight. Geez, that pisses me off. ![[Mad]](mad.gif) I've seen guys blow great deer hunting blinds because they just had to shoot a coyote that crossed in front of them, even if it did ruin their hunting for the morning. That, I just don't get.
You said, "I'm not near as good as you or Scott but i have called my share of conditioned coyotes and i think you are not telling them what they want to hear."
I don't know if I'm "good", but I do know that I can always be better. ![[Smile]](smile.gif) From what I hear, Scott is pretty good. Not real pleasant to correspond with, but pretty good at calling. I can say that I have an extensive repertoire at my disposal, from any one of a hundred calls I have to use, mine and a lot of others, howlers, and e-callers, I try it all with often the same results. I also wholeheartedly agree in the benefits of offering them a variety until they hear something that trips their trigger. And I, too, have hunted with Rich. In the early season, around here, that kitchen sink works well, but when the switch goes 'off", it's all the day down.
You said, "I know my calling skills sucked compared to Rich H. and he was proably chuckleing when i was calling, but the sounds i produced got the job done."
That's what counts. I've called with a lot of guys, and I heard a lot of jackrabbits pitch ghosts when I trained racing greyhounds. Rarely did the two sound anything alike. LOL But I've seen some of those gawd-awful sounding guys call coyotes. Consistently.
"Something different and thats what the coyotes wanted in order to respond." That's why. You're spot on.
You said, "i can't speak for Scott."
LOL, I don't think anyone has ever spoken for Scott. First off, he wouldn't allow it. Second, why would you wanna be like that? ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
"Now lets say Scott did come down there and does what you don't think he can do, then what! Well you bow to the master so to speak, and listen to the man or keep on doing what you are doing now?"
I'm all about giving credit where credit is due. I'd be very much interested in seeing and watching a man who has made calling coyotes his profession take his best shot at them. We've tried everything I've ever learned and everything ever addressed on this and every other calling forum, and before the web, personal correspondence and face to face discussion and with very nominal improvements in results. In my opinion, the issue here may only be, in small part, a matter of calling prowess as it is the willingness for a coyote to show itself in the light of day.
If Scott came here and put up decent numbers - he says "decent" is 6-10 in a day in a place like this with good pop'ns - then I will be the one to take the pictures and gladly show them to all of you, proclaiming that he is a helluva coyote caller. In fact, just about everyone around here that calls any amount at all would be interested in such a feat. Especially me. It would give me inspiration, knowing that there are still ways to call them, but that I just haven't figured them out yet. Damned coyotes.
Admittedly, this is the last place I would go if I was hunting a contest hunt. Let alone for my reputation. LOL Look at how hard I have to work now to defend mine when posting my local numbers?
As far as bowing to the master, so to speak or otherwise, I bow to no one. I'll leave that for the boot lickers.
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I am only one. But still, I am one. I cannot do everything, but still, I can do something; and, because I cannot do everything, I will not refuse to do something that I can do.
Posts: 5438 | From: The gun-lovin', gun-friendly wild, wild west | Registered: Jan 2003
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Cdog911
"There are some ideas so absurd only an intellectual could believe them."--George Orwell.
Member # 7
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posted February 24, 2007 06:26 PM
Damn, Scott. I missed that last rant.
I don't know which of us is further under the other's skin.
Say and think what you want. You may not know me 'as a person', but I'm pretty much sure I have a good handle on you. Spin it how you want, you ignorant bastard. I recall the story behind that four corners hunt. Not quite the way I heard it from in impartial third party. You forgot the part about how you lectured to everyone how to kill those coyotes down there, only to be stood up. That's how I heard it. Maybe my source was wrong. Same guy that told me you wouldn't have the balls to put your name on the line down here. Consider the offer withdrawn.
Crusade on.
[ February 24, 2007, 06:39 PM: Message edited by: Cdog911 ]
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I am only one. But still, I am one. I cannot do everything, but still, I can do something; and, because I cannot do everything, I will not refuse to do something that I can do.
Posts: 5438 | From: The gun-lovin', gun-friendly wild, wild west | Registered: Jan 2003
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Wiley E
Knows what it's all about
Member # 108
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posted February 24, 2007 08:04 PM
I've give you the last word Lance. I know how much that means to you at this point.
quote:
Cdog: "I think the call shyness comes not so much from being called at, by me or anyone else, but by being shot at time and again, from the first day of dove season to the end of January, by everything human that drives by."
One parting question, could you explain to me how drive by shootings can make a coyote "call shy". Are these guys blowing calls as their shooting from the roads? That's certainly an original concept. I'm impressed!
~SH~
[ February 24, 2007, 08:16 PM: Message edited by: Wiley E ]
Posts: 853 | From: Kadoka, S.D | Registered: Feb 2003
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BigO
Knows what it's all about
Member # 1062
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posted February 27, 2007 02:42 PM
I am by no means an experienced coyote hunter. The only person I will claim to know more than on this subject is someone who doesn't hunt them.
I've shot a couple coyotes by calling this year, which is my first year hunting them. I actually got lucky and called in a double about two weeks ago. Unfortunately for me I didn't know it was a double until I lowered my rifle in time to see the second one running behind some three foot tall CRP about 50 yrds. away.
Anyway, I took the one coyote I called off my second stand to the fur buyer. He had a stack of coyotes to be cleaned on the floor, 8 of them to be exact. He told me, one guy brought them all in at once. Said the guy runs a dog waggon. I haven't seen 8 coyotes in a month of Sundays.
My point is that I believe these dog waggons do create havoc for callers. If there are that many coyotes out there, why aren't I seeing them? I know they are in the areas I hunt, because I see tracks and scat every where. I also see the tell-tale signs of the dog waggons in these same places.
Lance, I've made several stands this year. Some long, some short. I've tried tips I was given on here, I've even talked to other hunters around this area. Some of which told me that I am the only one getting any coyotes with a call that they know of. I've come to understand that I am never going to keep up with the dog waggons, And it's a good thing I enjoy hunting as much as I do killing.
So, I think the Centeral and South Centeral part of Kansas, even though different in terrain. Are both lacking in coyote response to calls. I'm not bitter over the dog waggons, they do what they do. I'll just have to live with it.
Oh yea, I've been in every county in Kansas, not every inch of each county though. I have only seen one or two sheep farms with large heards. The only one I can think of off the top of my head is in Jewell County. The guy runs about 1200-1500 sheep. He tells me, 20 years ago you couldn't go outside without seeing a coyote. He says now he sees one or two every so often. I asked him if he loses any lambs to coyotes. He said he maybe loses one lamb every two years to coyotes. I don't know how he comes up with that number but I accept it.
Posts: 64 | From: reno co. ks. | Registered: Dec 2006
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Krustyklimber
prefers the bunny hugger pronunciation: ky o tee
Member # 72
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posted March 09, 2007 08:42 PM
Lance,
I don't need you to defend me.
I wasn't bothered by what Scott said, other than that he had the facts wrong, and used me improperly as an example.
And if he used me as an example of "somebody worse", that wouldn't offend me, because it's the truth.
My success rate pretty much proves I am the worst coyote caller there is.
That's my own cross to bear, and absolutely not germain to this discussion.
He used me as an example of someone who changed tactics in order to acheive success at calling coyotes instead of making excuses, when in fact I took up trapping to replace unsuccessful calling of coyotes.
Scott owes me nothing, and I seriously doubt he counts me among his friends.
You yourself have misrepresented me as well, because you (apperantly) no more understand my motivation for "what I did", than Scott does about why I took up trapping.
You both would do well to ask me for the actual facts, or not talk about me at all if you don't have them straight.
I certainly hope I am never help up as the measure of "a man" again.
That could be every bit as much of an insult, to me, as you took Scott's statement to be, and pretty much for the same reasons.
Your not smart enough to switch gears like that dumbass Krusty did... and,
He's not half the man a bag of shit like Krusty is?
See how both could be spun into somthing bad?
Good thing for me is, I choose to take both as compliments, and walk away.
Scott,
You were not "the one" who tried to help me, I have had help from many.
One guy actually drove up here in his truck and went calling with me... twice!
You have provided me with the most concrete, black and white, help though.
And I do appreciate that very much.
You are correct that it did come when I was at my worst as far as being "unliked".
But again, I don't see how that's germain to the topic at hand?
Yeah, I was an ass, so?
The "I can't" is stronger than ever, I have given up all hope of success at calling coyotes around here, and no longer try.
Trapping is not a way to calling success, and water trapping is definitely not the way to regularly successful coyote killing.
Even a dumbass like me can see that.
Krusty 
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Think about how stupid the average person is, then realize that half of them are stupider than that!
Posts: 1912 | From: Deep in the Blue Ridge Mountains of Virginia | Registered: Jan 2003
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