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Author
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Topic: What are the odd's
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csmithers
unknown comic
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posted March 04, 2007 08:34 PM
Matter of fact, Wiley, it fits quite well. I had it resized just last week. The pom poms are a little frayed but they'll do for now.
I just like to see you copy and paste. It fascinates me!
The pup distress scenario is fairly obvious. I'd like to see you opine on some other aspects of the why's and what for's of a response. Besides the obvious I was hungry or just love to kill rabbit's, lambs, antelope, deer etc.
[ March 04, 2007, 08:43 PM: Message edited by: smithers ]
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted March 04, 2007 08:45 PM
You know what?
The UBB program for The New Huntmasters has a feature where you can reply quoting a whole post; real easy, just click! Scott is the reason why it's not turned on; poor guy, cut and paste, cut and paste, cut and paste....
Good hunting. LB
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 31460 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
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Wiley E
Knows what it's all about
Member # 108
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posted March 05, 2007 06:17 AM
Guys, nobody is forced to read my posts so if I want to respond directly to a quote (copy/paste)then nobody should be concerned if they can just as easily skip over it right? Good grief! I'd swear if I didn't know better some of you are being forced to read my posts against your will.
"Well officer, I was being held at gunpoint and forced to read Wiley's copy/paste and I just lost it and started shooting........"
Can you say, "DIVERSION"? Sure, I knew you could!!!!!! Oh yeh, and lot's not forget the !!!!!!!! Heaven forbid someone use!!!!! OR CAPS, GEEEZ, TURN DOWN THE DAMN VOLUME ON THOSE LETTERS DUUUUUUDE!!!!!!!! And speling gee we shud al larn to spal to imprez atherz.
Not only do some think I should display everything I have learned about calling coyotes and coyote behavior, then some want to tell me what format to deliver it in only so I can read my answers to the same questions on another forum a month later. LOL!
I'll post in the manner I want to. If some don't like it, don't read it. Simple as that.
NEXT!
Ok Rich,
Within the context of a dog baying on a track, tell me what he's thinking?
Simply put, I think there is observations tied to certain sounds that give us a better idea of what a coyote is thinking than other sounds (ie pup distress).
No contradiction if read within the context of the action. In the context of your example, you were discussing tracking hounds. I don't have a clue what a tracking hound is thinking so Rich, tell me, what is a hound thinking when he's baying on a track....hmmmm????
Natural instinct? Sex? Territorial? Hunger? Blood lust? what the hell is this smell? Enjoying the chase?
~SH~
[ March 05, 2007, 06:28 AM: Message edited by: Wiley E ]
Posts: 853 | From: Kadoka, S.D | Registered: Feb 2003
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Rich
2,000th post PAKMAN
Member # 112
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posted March 05, 2007 06:27 AM
"I think some amongst us would lead others to believe they know a hell of a lot more than they actually do."
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Now THAT is absolute fact. The understatement of the past 100 years or so. ![[Wink]](wink.gif)
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If you call the coyotes in close, you won't NEED a high dollar range finder.
Posts: 2854 | From: Iowa | Registered: Feb 2003
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Wiley E
Knows what it's all about
Member # 108
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posted March 05, 2007 06:40 AM
quote:
Smithers: "Matter of fact, Wiley, it fits quite well. I had it resized just last week. The pom poms are a little frayed but they'll do for now."
Resized? Little trip to the silicone man huh? Keep those legs shaved and that hem low and it'll be our little secret. Try to keep your eyes off "Cindy the hottie" so you don't get a chubby during drill practice. That wouldn't be good. Those little skirts can hide your ass but they won't hide .....well, you know!
quote:
Smithers: "I just like to see you copy and paste. It fascinates me!"
Are you hitting on me?
Naaaaahhhh, you're not......naaaaahhhhhh!
You really like it huh? I'm glad but I really hope that's the only thing about me that fascinates you cause I'm fat and ugly and I don't have much for social graces. I live with my mother and I might not bathe for weeks at a time. Please tell me the copy/paste thing is the only thing that fascinates you about me.
~SH~
[ March 05, 2007, 06:43 AM: Message edited by: Wiley E ]
Posts: 853 | From: Kadoka, S.D | Registered: Feb 2003
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Rich Higgins
unknown comic
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posted March 05, 2007 07:01 AM
quote:
I don't have a clue what a tracking hound is thinking so Rich, tell me, what is a hound thinking when he's baying on a track....hmmmm????
This brings us to the very crux of this entire subject.
. What a sound means versus what an animal is thinking.
2dogs said:
"But to actually say, man knows what a coyote [or dog] for that matter. Is saying/thinking, is speculation."
His convoluted thinking has lumped coyotes together with dogs and "saying" with "thinking".
I pointed out that houndsmen KNOW what a dog is "saying". I can't believe that anyone knows what the dogs are thinking, which probably changes as fast as the action does.
I am equally convinced that we can often know what a coyote is "saying", without knowing what it is "thinking" at that particular moment. It matters not. We can still capitalize on what they are "saying" without ever knowing what they are "thinking".
The conclusion of the report on the Air Force's "Super Dog" studies stated, and I am paraphrasing,
"We do not know why these dogs behave a certain way. We feel it is enough to know that they do."
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted March 05, 2007 08:21 AM
Good post, Higgins.
edit: smithers and Wiley, sitting in a tree....
[ March 05, 2007, 08:22 AM: Message edited by: Leonard ]
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 31460 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
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2dogs
Knows what it's all about
Member # 649
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posted March 05, 2007 08:43 AM
[ March 26, 2007, 06:55 PM: Message edited by: 2dogs ]
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Wiley E
Knows what it's all about
Member # 108
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posted March 05, 2007 08:57 AM
RH: "The conclusion of the report on the Air Force's "Super Dog" studies stated, and I am paraphrasing,
"We do not know why these dogs behave a certain way. We feel it is enough to know that they do."
Exactly! I appreciate their honesty as opposed to thinking they know why their dogs behave a certain way.
As I have stated repeatedly, there is a "warning bark" (for lack of a better term or understanding of the sound) that a coyote elicits when a decoy dog is near the den. There is also a "warning bark" (for lack of a better term or understanding of the sound) that a coyote elicits when said coyote has spotted the hunter. I have heard each sound a thousand times as well as the responses to each sound. Based on OBSERVATIONS, one warns coyotes and the other calls them to action AND I'LL CHALLENGE ANYONE TO SHOW ME THE DIFFERENCE.
A coyote can tip it's head back, make a lone howl and pull another pair of coyotes into a carcass from 9 miles away (Slim Pedersen OBSERVATION and back track in snow) and a coyote can tip it's head back, make a lone howl and simply get another coyote to respond vocally while each coyote goes on their merry way. One creates an approach response and the other didn't and it sounds the same. Perhaps it is the same which would make any researcher positively conclude that sometimes they respond and sometimes they don't and nobody knows why. Haha!
The best research always leads to more questions than answers.
I'm glad you admit that we don't know what they are thinking then it's just as safe to say we don't know why they are responding.
~SH~
[ March 05, 2007, 08:59 AM: Message edited by: Wiley E ]
Posts: 853 | From: Kadoka, S.D | Registered: Feb 2003
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted March 05, 2007 10:29 AM
Scott. Actually, I don't see anything in your post, with which to disagree. LB
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 31460 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
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Rich Higgins
unknown comic
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posted March 05, 2007 10:32 AM
Neither do I. That's why we are reduced to arguing over the difference between elicit and issue. ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
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Wiley E
Knows what it's all about
Member # 108
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posted March 05, 2007 10:52 AM
group hug!
BUT NOT WITH SMITHERS unless he changes out of that little cheerleading skirt.
~SH~
Posts: 853 | From: Kadoka, S.D | Registered: Feb 2003
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csmithers
unknown comic
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posted March 05, 2007 11:15 AM
Wiley, the copy and paste thing is the ONLY thing that fascinates me about you. I do find your posts intriguing and you do stick to your guns which I respect. Your knowledge serves you well. Rich Cronk respects you and that's all I need to know.
My coyotye knowledge may pale in comparison to some of you old bastards but I will learn as I go. I can't help myself I have OCD. I wouldn't put my seven seasons up against anyone's 20 + yrs. I know what I know and that's all that I know.
As far as the cheerleading out fit goes it is a male cheerleading outfit.
group hug!
except for Wiley, atleast 'til his mom gives him a bath.
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Rich
2,000th post PAKMAN
Member # 112
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posted March 05, 2007 02:55 PM
"except for Wiley, atleast 'til his mom gives him a bath."
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Smithers,
Most of us old bastard's take a bath every spring, whether we need it ir not. I am old enough to be Wiley's Dad. He still has my respect, even though he is just a pup yet.
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If you call the coyotes in close, you won't NEED a high dollar range finder.
Posts: 2854 | From: Iowa | Registered: Feb 2003
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Wiley E
Knows what it's all about
Member # 108
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posted March 05, 2007 02:57 PM
quote:
Smithers: "except for Wiley, atleast 'til his mom gives him a bath."
"HELL NO, I WON'T GO!"
~SH~
Posts: 853 | From: Kadoka, S.D | Registered: Feb 2003
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csmithers
unknown comic
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posted March 05, 2007 04:27 PM
Actually, and just to clarify, I wear no cheerleading outfit of any kind and never have. I've been in a few but I wasn't wearing them.
Back to the subject at hand.
Can we understand just exactly what a coyote is conveying when they howl, bark, whimper. Not exactly. Can we as humans assume what they are trying to convey close enough to use it to our advantage. Of course. Otherwise, we would all be calling in vain.
Coyotes in groups, as we know, have a hierarchy. Perhaps, there is a graduated 'job title' held by these coyotes as well.
The job of the Alpha's is to keep the pack in order and lead the killing. The beta's are assigned pack cohesion as well as discipline duties. The underling's are just biding their time waiting to disperse or challenge for higher ranking. Maybe, in a group, one coyote has the job of letting everyone know dinner is served or that they have found something. Like a scout. When they hear that distinct howl they know dinner is on. All other group members have their distinct role and through their distinct barks howls etc. let the other group member's know what's on the agenda.
This may explain the reason why nomadic coyotes don't howl as much as grouped coyotes do. Who would they be howling to? They're only role is to survive. Theory.
[ March 05, 2007, 04:28 PM: Message edited by: smithers ]
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Wiley E
Knows what it's all about
Member # 108
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posted March 05, 2007 09:06 PM
Smithers,
Most coyotes in most EXPLOITED areas do not run in packs or groups.
Sure, there is the occasional family group but there is just as many singles out there.
~SH~
[ March 05, 2007, 09:08 PM: Message edited by: Wiley E ]
Posts: 853 | From: Kadoka, S.D | Registered: Feb 2003
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2dogs
Knows what it's all about
Member # 649
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posted March 06, 2007 03:19 AM
[ March 26, 2007, 06:56 PM: Message edited by: 2dogs ]
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nd coyote killer
HUNTMASTER PRO STAFF
Member # 40
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posted March 07, 2007 06:25 AM
A coyote can tip it's head back, make a lone howl and pull another pair of coyotes into a carcass from 9 miles away (Slim Pedersen OBSERVATION and back track in snow) and a coyote can tip it's head back, make a lone howl and simply get another coyote to respond vocally while each coyote goes on their merry way. One creates an approach response and the other didn't and it sounds the same. Perhaps it is the same which would make any researcher positively conclude that sometimes they respond and sometimes they don't and nobody knows why. Haha!
Scott do you think that these two howls would be the exact same and the different coyotes respond to it differently? Is it possible they are different but the human ear or human brain can not distinguish the difference? I just have to believe that ALL of us including myself probably think we know more about the coyote vocalizations then we think and on our death bed will finally learn that LOLOLOLOLOL. In your observations have you been able to ever tell the difference between the two warning barks?
Great thread boys!
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"Sure are cocky for a starving pilgrim" - Bear Claw
Posts: 385 | From: On a hill | Registered: Jan 2003
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Rich
2,000th post PAKMAN
Member # 112
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posted March 07, 2007 07:51 AM
I haven't heard as many coyote barks as Wiley, Rich Higgins or Slydog. I am fairly certain of that because I haven't had the opportunity to spend nearly as many hours in good coyote country as those guys have. I have heard many variations of what I call a "challenge howl" or "Challenge bark". I have been able to recognize the coyote's meaning when they make this sound, because I can just FEEL the anger in that voice. I have also hadcoyotes hang up back in the brush and bark a different type of bark. I think I detect frustration in that particular bark. It sounds to me like a coyote wants to come in, has sensed something is not quite right and is venting it's frustration. To me, the meaning of most coyote vocalizations are found mostly in the inflection, or "mood" that I hear in the voice. I think maybe a bark to warn other coyotes would likely be the "woof" a momma coyote makes to warn her pups of danger. I know that I'm probably not absolutely correct here, but I think I am pretty dang close.
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If you call the coyotes in close, you won't NEED a high dollar range finder.
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nd coyote killer
HUNTMASTER PRO STAFF
Member # 40
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posted March 07, 2007 08:38 AM
Great point Rich that is what i base most of my decisions on in the field ( the attitude or inflection) I'm just wondering if the guys that have spent more time in the field than me have figured out the cadence part of it. I go back and forth between the thought of every different cadence and length of howl meaning something different and the thought of they just howl but it is the emotion while howling that contains the meaning. This would exclude the diffenrenes between the general long drawn out howl and short barks that the cadence is certainly an important part.
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"Sure are cocky for a starving pilgrim" - Bear Claw
Posts: 385 | From: On a hill | Registered: Jan 2003
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Wiley E
Knows what it's all about
Member # 108
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posted March 07, 2007 08:53 AM
Great post Rich.
That's a very good description of what I believe ("frustration vs anger"). I hate to tie human terms to animals but I think that is as close to being on target as we are going to get.
A trapper friend of mine came up with the word "animane" instead of "humane". I love that word and use it often because I hate giving animals the same feelings as people.
quote:
nd: "Scott do you think that these two howls would be the exact same and the different coyotes respond to it differently? Is it possible they are different but the human ear or human brain can not distinguish the difference?"
Yes I believe, BASED ON THE RESPONSE, that these howls have different meanings and yes I cannot distinguish the two but there might be an audible difference.
Same as with the warning bark of a coyote that has seen you which warns other coyotes and a warning bark of a coyote at the den that calls it's mate. I cannot tell an audible difference but there is a different reaction to each sound.
Then again, here I go contradicting myself, the meaning might be the same but the "den" aspect makes the mate throw it's caution to the wind for the sake of the den. Make sense?
All we can do is listen to any audible differences and read the reactions. I appreciate those who question themselves because they are less apt to mislead.
quote:
nd: "In your observations have you been able to ever tell the difference between the two warning barks?"
No I can't! There might be a difference but I can't detect it especially considering that there is sometimes audible differences from coyote to coyote.
~SH~
Posts: 853 | From: Kadoka, S.D | Registered: Feb 2003
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nd coyote killer
HUNTMASTER PRO STAFF
Member # 40
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posted March 07, 2007 09:25 AM
When denning with the dogs is the "warning bark" the most common vocalization that you hear the coyotes use? This would lead me to believe that the sound is used more often and for more things then previouly. The term warning bark that everyone uses could be misleading. Would it be a stretch to just say that it is a sound used by the coyote when it is worked up.
Has anyone witnessed a coyote doing a "warning bark" in a frustration situation such as a river it can't cross or fence that it can't get through but so badly wants to? I have had coyotes challenging and then switch to from my research and observations a "warning bark" and assumed they seen something and left, now thinking back they might have just went to the next level of excitement?
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"Sure are cocky for a starving pilgrim" - Bear Claw
Posts: 385 | From: On a hill | Registered: Jan 2003
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Wiley E
Knows what it's all about
Member # 108
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posted March 07, 2007 09:07 PM
quote:
nd: "When denning with the dogs is the "warning bark" the most common vocalization that you hear the coyotes use?"
Yes!
~SH~
Posts: 853 | From: Kadoka, S.D | Registered: Feb 2003
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Rich
2,000th post PAKMAN
Member # 112
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posted March 08, 2007 05:12 AM
ND: "I have had coyotes challenging and then switch to from my research and observations a "warning bark" and assumed they seen something and left, now thinking back they might have just went to the next level of excitement?"
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ND,
From reading your post, it sounds like your "warning bark" is the bark that I consider a "frustration" bark. I personally haven't experienced hearing a coyote switch from challenge howl or challenge "bark/howl" to a frustration bark. Not saying it never happens, I just haven't seen it.
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If you call the coyotes in close, you won't NEED a high dollar range finder.
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