quote:

---

The ability to totally control the sounds you are puting out will make the difference every time with a finicky coyote.

---

What do you think?

Good hunting. LB
 

---

Posted by Clint (Member # 346) on March 29, 2005, 04:22 PM:
 
i would say hand calls are the best! but i use both, i use the e call when i am calling on my own.
Clint

[ March 29, 2005, 04:23 PM: Message edited by: Clint ]
 

---

Posted by brad h (Member # 57) on March 29, 2005, 04:31 PM:
 
I like my e-caller, but I'm far more comfortable using hand calls.

What I don't agree with is the "every time" part. I've seen a lot of coyotes recently that chose not to acknowledge any sounds from hand calls at all. Not spook and run, but stop, look, and continue meandering their merry way along as if to be deaf, and at very respondable distances.

I don't think there is an "every time" with coyotes.

Brad
 

---

Posted by keekee (Member # 465) on March 29, 2005, 05:27 PM:
 
I agree with Brad, I dont think there is an everytime either.

Im a hand call person myself, but a good e-caller has its place in my calling. I love them for cats and long stands, and the remotes make it nice for set ups that I can make with an e-caller that would be hard with hand calls unless I have another shooter.

And e-callers are great for calling alone. But even then I will run hand calls most of the time.

Brent
 

---

Posted by Doggitter (Member # 489) on March 29, 2005, 05:51 PM:
 
I replyed to someone with a similar statement a while back but don't think those are my words. To good extent I agree.
 

---

Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on March 29, 2005, 06:15 PM:
 
Nope, wasn't you. I 'spect the party will be along; shortly?

Good hunting. LB
 

---

Posted by UTcaller (Member # 8) on March 29, 2005, 06:29 PM:
 
I gotta say hand calls all the way.Haven't got into the DJ thing with the E-callers. Too stubburn I guess. GOOD HUNTING C.O

[ March 29, 2005, 06:29 PM: Message edited by: UTcaller ]
 

---

Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on March 29, 2005, 06:36 PM:
 
Get away with a lot of hand movement, at night; eh, Chad?

I'll say this, for daylights on cats, it's hard to beat a remote machine.

Good hunting. LB
 

---

Posted by varmit hunter (Member # 37) on March 29, 2005, 06:37 PM:
 
I think they both have there place. I very much prefer a hand call. When I do use a E-caller 90% of the time I will blow a hand call louder than the electronic at the same time. Works for me.

Ronnie
 

---

Posted by Tim Behle (Member # 209) on March 29, 2005, 06:46 PM:
 
I'm probably wrong, but those sound like the words of someone new to calling, or someone who hasn't given electronics much of a chance.

But then who ever wrote it probably didn't think we'd pick his words apart.

I'd agree that Handcalls give you better ability to control the sound, that often can make the difference on a finicky coyote.

But I don't believe you get total control, even with a hand call. ( Ever have a reed lock up or turn into a goose call when you least expect it?)

And there is no such thing as "Every time" with a coyote.

In the words of coyote Guru, Murry Burnham "Sometimes this shit just don't work!"
 

---

Posted by UTcaller (Member # 8) on March 29, 2005, 07:13 PM:
 
I fall into the category of not giving E-callers a chance.I bought and tried the JS Preymaster a couple years ago,used it a couple times but I just didn't see the advantage of it.I can see Leonard's point with regards to calling cats.But I have been using handcalls for almost 20 years now and don't see any need to change now.Coyotes seem to just keep coming to the hand calls.Maybe when they won't come in anymore I'll break down and get me a FOXPRO. GOOD HUNTING C.O
 

---

Posted by TOM64 (Member # 561) on March 29, 2005, 09:12 PM:
 
I like handcalls and I own no e-caller at this time. My old JS512 called in alot of critters but I thought I needed a lighter newer caller, went with preymaster then foxpro sold both in a little over a month after purchase. I had no control with them, hit wrong button on PM and remote sucked on FP but with handcalls I don't really have anymore control but I enjoy them more.
 

---

Posted by Clint (Member # 346) on March 29, 2005, 09:27 PM:
 
i love my loudmouth, but when needed i can put more "feeling" in to a mouth call. i believe that you have a better chance calling in that dog that just isnt super interested by being able to call with the circumstances that come up. but i still do 75% of my calling with the loudmouth.
Clint

[ March 29, 2005, 09:29 PM: Message edited by: Clint ]
 

---

Posted by TheHuntedOne (Member # 623) on March 29, 2005, 09:36 PM:
 
Where I hunt, here in the east, it is sometimes an advantage to get up in a tree stand. I have a few out in the woods and sometimes I will tote in the climber. In these cases, an E caller set out about 50 yards or so has worked well for me.

When I hunt on the ground though, I like my hand calls.

I think that in the areas I hunt, both are necessary to be well rounded. You could get by with one or the other, but in my experiance, there is a time and a place for each.
 

---

Posted by Lungbuster (Member # 630) on March 30, 2005, 07:51 AM:
 
Hello Everyone!
I hope you don't mind if I jump in. There is something about a hand call that just makes me feel good when I call in and kill a predator. Maybe its because I am not that experienced and doing it by myself gives me a certain satisfaction that I didn't feel when I used an e-caller.
 

---

Posted by onecoyote (Member # 129) on March 30, 2005, 10:53 AM:
 
A smart man knows the answer before he ask the question, Right Leonard
 

---

Posted by Jay Nistetter (Member # 140) on March 30, 2005, 12:24 PM:
 
Hand calls, hands down. Working a coyote is much more automatic, but if someone only wanted to kill (or miss) a coyote and that's all, the e-caller is a no brainer.
 

---

Posted by Hawkeye (Member # 216) on March 30, 2005, 06:47 PM:
 
Electronic with remote
 

---

Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on March 30, 2005, 07:02 PM:
 
So, where's Tom? Hello, NASA! You don't have to tell me how unfair this is, taken out of context, and all. But, you're a good sport. Please note what Tim said about you, a man; (a gentleman, in fact) who has shared his campfire!

Good hunting. LB
 

---

Posted by Q-Wagoner (Member # 33) on March 30, 2005, 09:20 PM:
 
E-callers help the best become better and the flunkies to make par. “Which is better???” Which can you work the best?

Good hunting.

Q,
 

---

Posted by NASA (Member # 177) on March 31, 2005, 04:05 AM:
 
OK LB,have your fun. My son is here for Easter vacation and we've been out calling, and, shooting PD's. Otherwise, I'd have seen this sooner.

I'll only agree that using the word "always" (without qualification) left me wide open for criticism. I'll stand by the rest of my opinion.

My style/type of predator hunting is casual and laid back. Very different from the intense, driven, hectic and even extreme approach that is the key to success for consistant tournamant winners and professional fur hunters. Q hunts like a man possessed, and has the pelts at the end of the season to prove it. Leonard has been on club hunts where it took 40 animals to win a 3 day contest. Taking time to sleep was not an option. For that kind of hunting, an ecaller is indispensible.

My reply was not intended to be used as a challange to the tournament style hunters with speakers on the roof of their cab who drive and shoot all night long. That frantic pace of hunting requires the mechanical aid of an ecaller. You could call this technique "production" style hunting.

I don't need to sell fur in order to make a loan payment, and if I never get a trophy for killing 40 coyotes in 2 days, I'm OK with that. But if I can call in coyotes every time I go out, and have the "opportunity" to take at least one, then I am satisfied. High volume has never been a priority with me and I have nothing against it. I have a lot of respect for the guys who have the stamina and grit to hunt that hard. Myself, I don't have the horsepower for that grueling pace!

[ March 31, 2005, 04:14 AM: Message edited by: NASA ]
 

---

Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on March 31, 2005, 11:51 AM:
 
Tom, you are right. When we use terms like never and always, it calls for equivocation, sooner or later. But, we all do it.....well, not all(?) but you know what I mean.

There is a phenomena that not everybody will see, or agree with, but I believe it. Under certain conditions, the most perfect response from a called coyote will be to a machine that plays a monotonous and continuous sound. Realistic pauses, and creative renditions work against the object harvest. You will never see a more beautiful response to a distress, and an efficient dusting. I know it sounds contrary, but you have to see it in action, to appreciate what I'm saying. A Nirvana kind of thing.

Good hunting. LB
 

---

Posted by NASA (Member # 177) on March 31, 2005, 09:53 PM:
 
Oh, but I do know what you're talking about. In defense of ecallers,here's a little story. TJ and I were hunting along the CO river. We were heading south on 78 below Palo Verde. On a dirt road between the river and a cantalope field we caught a glimps of a coyote. We slowly drove by and about 25 yards past him we put the FoxPro out. We kept going another 40 yards and pulled into the brush. After we got set up, I hit the remote. Here they come, three coyotes in single file, as perfect as a movie script. I said, "On three, shoot!" And on 3 we both shot, the same dog. No chance for a follow-up, but it was a classic call-in.

[ April 01, 2005, 08:59 AM: Message edited by: NASA ]
 

---

Posted by Rich Higgins (Member # 3) on April 01, 2005, 08:14 AM:
 
". You will never see a more beautiful response to a distress, and an efficient dusting."

Here is a different take, based on different perception. When KeeKee hunted with Tyler in Jan. Tyler videoed a coyote that did not want to come to the call and did not want to be there and everytime it would hangup or balk Tyler would plead a little differently and the coyote would stalk in, head down, slowly, one foot in front of the other, like a cat. It took several minutes of coaxing, begging, pleading, until Brent lip-squeaked it into position for his gun and shot the coyote. Dandy video and
"You will never see a more beautiful response to a distress, and an efficient dusting".
 

---

Posted by NASA (Member # 177) on April 01, 2005, 08:55 AM:
 
Rich, that is exactly the type of situation I was refering to when I said

Quote: "The ability to totally control the sounds you are puting out will make the difference every time with a finicky coyote."
 

---

Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on April 01, 2005, 09:54 AM:
 
That's great, but it's not what I meant.

Coaxing a coyote, however long it takes is a very satisfying thing to do, but it wastes time, and is the exact opposite of what I was describing: like he's on a string.

One after the other, bang flop, bang flop. Very efficient method of stacking them up, and it seems to occur (more often) while playing a hypnotic and repetitive distress at low volume.

Other variable sounds seem to break the rhythm, and the animal reacts to every note, (just to illustrate and exagerate) as you are describing, Rich.

Apparently it is a bit difficult to conceptualize?

Good hunting. LB
 

---

Posted by Rich Higgins (Member # 3) on April 01, 2005, 11:31 AM:
 
Nope, it's fairly easy to conceptualize. I simply responded to the question "Which is Best" within the context that Tom asked the question, not within the context of a whack 'em and stack 'em contest.

"Coaxing a coyote, however long it takes is a very satisfying thing to do, but it wastes time"

I'd like to hear Brent's take on that since they called all day in a heavily pressured area and that was the only coyote they saw.
 

---

Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on April 01, 2005, 11:55 AM:
 
Rich, please. I think you know very well, what I'm talking about. I'm thinking of target rich conditions. What Brent does is necessary, within the structure of his environment. I think we all understand the difference.

Good hunting. LB
 

---

Posted by Rich Higgins (Member # 3) on April 01, 2005, 01:36 PM:
 
Leonard, say pretty please.
 

---

Posted by Norm (Member # 240) on April 01, 2005, 02:41 PM:
 
see how things have changed since the trip to Dr. Phil.... Please???

What is best.... is dependent upon the situation...

When hunting alone... I prefer electronics... takes away any extra motion involved with calling....

when there are two or more... I use both... electronic and hand calls.... 2 cottontails is better than one... a howl on the mini critr call amongst a ailing jack....

if you really want the best.... put 3 calls around your next.... the crit'r call... one of Jay's rhino's and one of cdog's predatr take a buddy with you... you call, they shoot....
 

---

Posted by keekee (Member # 465) on April 01, 2005, 06:01 PM:
 
"Coaxing a coyote, however long it takes is a very satisfying thing to do, but it wastes time"

WOW! Thats about all I can say!

No, not really. The hunt Rich is talking about was in Az. That coyote really didnt want to be there. He showed up and it took forever to work him to the gun! Great footage! But you could tell he had other things on his mind.

My thought on that were I really dont think he would of even responded to an e-caller. He came to the calls just to see what the heck was going on over there. There were alot of diffrent calls threw out there and he came just out of curiosity.

Here coaxing is a must! I kill very very few coyotes that come running to the call. Dont get me wrong some do but most slowly make there way in or head strait down wind. Good coaxing skills are a good thing here.

Brent
 

---

Posted by NASA (Member # 177) on April 01, 2005, 11:20 PM:
 
I'm afraid the target rich environments and non-pressured coyotes of the 60's and 70's are gone forever. The constant encroachment of civilization, expanding suburbia, proliferation of off-road and all-terrain vehicles, and unrelenting enactment of "conservation" laws, have pretty much wiped out the "good 'ol days. They just don't come in thundering herds anymore.

There are probably some areas behind locked gates where old timers could reminisce, but "Access Denied" is more likely.

What's left for the "average" predator hunter is slim pickins' and educated dogs. Getting even one under these conditions takes some skill, and can be considered an accomplishment.

So in the context of that understanding, the question of "Which type of call is best" seems to have a more specific meaning.

This might help level the playing field between the two schools of thought. (This also came from another board.)

"Since you think in terms of contests, maybe the question should have been worded like one. How about this?

You are challenged to a 2 person (daytime) contest. One coyote only. It must be called ( you are monitored). No road hunting, no chasing, no shooting from the vehicle, no stalk and shoot. Pick a stand and calling only. Watchers and judges are in radio contact with each other, so no cheating is allowed. You both hunt the same general area. You are timed from the start. First fur on the ground wins. You can only use an ecaller or hand calls, not both.
NOW, which caller would be best?"

[ April 02, 2005, 06:08 AM: Message edited by: NASA ]
 

---

Posted by keekee (Member # 465) on April 02, 2005, 07:32 AM:
 
I will take my hand calls! The e-caller would stay home!

Brent
 

---

Posted by Az-Hunter (Member # 17) on April 02, 2005, 12:45 PM:
 
You may not "think" he would have even came to an electronic call Brent, but you don't know, do you? You didn't use one with that particular coyote, so it's up in the air, as to whether or not it would have responded.
I could make the same assumptions with many coyotes I call using my electronic, claiming that the coyote was edgey, and most likely would have seen hand movement if I had been using a mouth call, it's called anecdotal evidence:)
This is one of the topics where it's difficult to call one method or the other "best". I think when speaking about particular electronic callers, or hand calls, you can argue as to which is "best" in it's category, but not between the two different calls specifically.
Which method may be "best" for an individual caller is another matter I suppose, and to each his own. For my calling technique, I think the electronic caller is best for my calling situations. I don't subscribe to the "working" or "coaxing" a coyote philosophy as such. I may turn the volumne up or down or even off, but never switch call sounds midstream, but I suppose a guy could argue I am "working" a coyote by doing such? I always felt a guy was taking himself a little to serious, when talking about how he "worked" this ole dog in, and never could have done it without a mouth call...expertly blown by noneother than himself:).Ive had plenty of coyotes slink and creep, duck and dodge their way to the monotonous sounds from my electronic caller; to presume that I could call them any better "working" them with a hand call? My opinion is that a guy will always kill more coyotes with electronics than mouth calls....notice I said kill, not call.
Something fun to kick around I guess, but tough to make a call on which method is "best". A guy just has to figure out which method he likes "best", but it's foolish to agrue which is the difinitive "best".
 

---

Posted by Rich Higgins (Member # 3) on April 02, 2005, 05:06 PM:
 
Vic, it isn't foolish to argue which is the definitive "best'. That is the purpose of this board and these are the only subjects that will draw you out into the open anymore.
Of course you are correct to state that you can't possibly know if a coyote will come to an e-call but not a handcall or vice-versa anymore than you can know why they came to the call. Their complexity of behavior makes their motives almost as varied as humans. Six different people may come to Circle K for six different reasons. One for a Diet Dr. Pepper, one for a candy bar, one for cigarettes, one for a magazine, one just to pay for gas so he can go call coyotes. So it is with coyotes. Some come to the call out of curiosity, some out of social concerns, some for hunger, competition, greed, territorial issues. Sometimes I make a Circle K stand and try to give them all of those things. It is much easier for me to do that with handcalls. I call many more coyotes with handcalls because I have more confidence in them than with an e-call. HIGH CONFIDENCE STANDS ARE MORE PRODUCTIVE THAN LOW CONFIDENCE STANDS.. Ergo, handcalls are best for me, under most conditions, making them my personal preference, just as electronics are your preference, and apparently thousands of others, based on Foxpro sales. And yes, I do "work" some coyotes into staying in front of my camera for longer periods of time than they want to. Sometimes it's kinda hard to make them leave.
 

---

Posted by Az-Hunter (Member # 17) on April 02, 2005, 06:42 PM:
 
Rich, my ole friend:), I think you may have just uttered the most profound sentence Ive seen typed on these boards. "High confidence stands, are more productive, than low confidence stands"
Don't you just love it when you sit down, pull your headnet down,start calling,and absolutely KNOW a coyote is coming, wonderful feeling on a stand. Well said buddy.
 

---

Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on April 02, 2005, 07:17 PM:
 
I agree with Vic to the extent that I could have written it myself.

I also agree that it's getting harder and harder to smoke him out.

Good hunting. LB
 

---

Posted by Lungbuster (Member # 630) on April 03, 2005, 10:33 PM:
 
Rich,
Could you describe what calls you use during a circle k stand?

For NASA's contest, I would use my THO cottontail. My best call, no doubt about it.
 

---

Posted by keekee (Member # 465) on April 04, 2005, 11:53 AM:
 
Az Hunter,

I dont know a 100% that the coyote would not of came to an e-caller, as with all coyotes there is no 100%.

But I do know this, the areas I call get pounded! And 9 out of 10 of callers run e-callers. Me being the 10th caller. If I run an e-caller on all my stands then my kill or call rate goes way down! That tells me that my hand calls in those areas are going to bring in more criters. I will say this, I can change my set ups and change my calling rate, they may still respond but they do it in a diffrent way, and if I change my set ups to allow for this I can shoot them off of an e-caller. And alot depends on what sounds you run on the caller.

I dont know that there is a best but I think Rich said it best. Confidence in the calling has alot to do with it, be it an e-caller or a hand call or calls.
 

---

Posted by Tim Behle (Member # 209) on April 04, 2005, 05:52 PM:
 

quote:

---

HIGH CONFIDENCE STANDS ARE MORE PRODUCTIVE THAN LOW CONFIDENCE STANDS

---

Why would anyone even bother to set up and call a place that they were not sure that coyotes were close enough to hear them? You can't call in a coyote that isn't close enough to hear you, so why set up in a place that you are not confident with?
 

---

Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on April 04, 2005, 06:01 PM:
 
Excellent point, Tim.

However, I have set up, for reasons unknown, in places where I was sure that I was wasting my time, and guess what?

Actually, there is a difference between the perfect spot to set up and call; and being in a target rich area, one in which it really doesn't matter if you sit by this bush or that bush.

Good hunting. LB

edit: I feel kind of bad for NASA, since he believes the good old days are long gone. On the other hand, I'm glad he feels that way.

[ April 04, 2005, 06:04 PM: Message edited by: Leonard ]
 

---

Posted by Rich Higgins (Member # 3) on April 04, 2005, 07:30 PM:
 
Why would anyone even bother to set up and call a place that they were not sure that coyotes were close enough to hear them?

Contest hunters often set up low confidence stands while pounding out 20 stands in a day. But that really isn't the only scenario. Not all stands are "high confidence", the kind that Vic described where you pull down the face mask and give it 100% because you absolutely know a coyote will come. The stands the guys posted about on the "eyes wide shut" threat understand what a low confidence stand is. You don't daydream or doze off on a high confidence stand.
 

---

Posted by Tim Behle (Member # 209) on April 04, 2005, 07:58 PM:
 
I guess that's where I differ mentally with a contest hunter.

I'd rather make 4-5 stands in the morning, and kill 3-4 coyotes and be home by noon and work around the house than spend all day busting my ass for a couple of more coyotes.

To me, the point of diminishing returns, must come sooner than it does with most contest hunters.
 

---

Posted by Doggitter (Member # 489) on April 04, 2005, 08:21 PM:
 
"plays a monotonous and continuous sound"

How literally do you mean this Leonard? As in a single tone actually like a from a tone generator or stuck horn button? Hmm. Never heard this before. I'm going to read some more.
 

---

Posted by Doggitter (Member # 489) on April 04, 2005, 08:43 PM:
 
Why set up on an unproductive stand?
How did you get to know what a produtive stand is?
And Tim, I am completely willing to slug it out all day for the chance at one more Coyote. Just have to see what's over the next hill and around the next corner. It may be the next Coyote honey-hole.
 

---

Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on April 04, 2005, 11:05 PM:
 
by monotonous and continuous, I mean: Wah, wah, wah, in a closed loop, no pauses, no changes in volume or tone. Just the same Wah, wah, wah, over and over, and over. Or, it could be meow, meow, meow......twenty minutes of exactly the same sound. OR. It might be squeak, squeak, squeak for twenty minutes.

Good hunting. LB

I wouldn't call anything I didn't have confidence in; unless I was forced out by rain or wind or snow, or impassable roads, a locked gate, etc. In other words, if I couldn't get to where I wanted to be, and I was forced to hunt where I was.
 

---

Posted by Rich Higgins (Member # 3) on April 05, 2005, 07:01 AM:
 
Tyler and I, and a lot of callers, hunt from dawn to dusk. We call some stands that have produced in the past, that MAY have a coyote, although our confidence in it is not high and we cold call some stands in new areas based on a couple of tracks or scat. We call those low confidence stands because we are there at that time and we can not expect to call a coyote unless we try and because even calling low confidence stands is better than doing chores at home or sitting in front of the TV. Even in the "good old days" which Tom laments we were not certain that every stand would produce. Now, today, in this area, at certain times of the year we feel lucky to call a coyote in one stand out of five. It would be unreasonable to expect a coyote in on every stand. Subsequently we have more confidence in stands that produce consistantly and less confidence in stands that produce only occasionally.
 

---

Posted by Frank (Member # 6) on April 06, 2005, 11:40 AM:
 
When I was hunting I'd use an electronic call mostly. When I got a finicky coyote, I'd switch to a mouth call. It often made the difference.
 

---

UBB.classic^TM 6.3.0