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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on July 17, 2005, 06:37 PM:
 
Had an interesting conversation this morning.

Do you believe that coyotes can convey a type of warning and even relay that warning from strange coyotes, to other coyotes further away, in a chain reaction?

I believe it may be possible. What do you think? If you think they can do this, can you give a example from your own experience?

Good hunting. LB
 

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Posted by Cdog911 (Member # 7) on July 17, 2005, 08:08 PM:
 
I wouldn't go so far as to say that they can convey specifics about a threat, but I believe that they can disseminate a warning to put everyone on about DefCon 1 - enough that it can make it harder for other coyotes in the area to be called. I look forward to what you guys in higher density areas have to say.
 

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Posted by onecoyote (Member # 129) on July 17, 2005, 09:00 PM:
 
Humm...interesting. Only a coyote knows what goes on in a coyotes mind. I'd have to say a coyote has a way of doing what Leonard said. Example...You're just starting your stand and it sounds like 10 coyotes are all yepping not far away, that's happen to all of us. Are they telling you they know what's up? And all the other coyotes not to play the game? Your guess is as good as mine. One thing for sure, they are saying something?
 

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Posted by Krustyklimber (Member # 72) on July 17, 2005, 09:40 PM:
 
Leonard,

In my own experience, in my own area, I don't believe they do.

Sound gets eaten up by the topography, the forest and thick brush, and there aren't enough coyotes, close enough together, to make a "voice chain".

I believe it's possible in areas with larger populations.
I mean after all isn't "group howling" something coyotes, especially those who compete for territory, do every night?
Don't they do so, to let the neighbors know they are still here, and to "warn them" not to invade?

Krusty
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on July 17, 2005, 10:37 PM:
 
Higgins told me that Ed Sceery mentioned that if he had coyotes vocally responding on every stand, but they wouldn't come in, he felt the only solution was to drive at least five miles; Or, in other words out of range.

Danny, as an old Nevada night hunter, let me run this by ya.

Let us say that we are making a stand, nice and quiet, good spot, and yet a couple minutes into the stand,you have a pack howling at you....and they aren't even down wind.

So, next stand, same thing. And every stand, no takers, buit they lite up within a minute or two of beginning a stand!

I have seen this a number of times. The only solution I have ever come up with that works is to get the hell out of the area, and I'm talking more like ten or twenty miles: beat the jungle telegraph; so to speak.

Good hunting. LB
 

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Posted by Greenside (Member # 10) on July 18, 2005, 05:50 AM:
 
I'm real skeptical. What was the trigger for the warning "howl" in the first place. Was it a response to another howl or prey distress call that could be heard by coyote farther down the line?

Dennis
 

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Posted by onecoyote (Member # 129) on July 18, 2005, 08:02 AM:
 
Yep Leonard, I'd leave too. Been there done that one like most of us. That was before howling was a big thing, maybe that would have worked?

Nothing gets me more upset then to know you have coyotes all around you, but they don't want to play. Sometimes they can really be bad sports about it.

[ July 18, 2005, 08:04 AM: Message edited by: onecoyote ]
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on July 18, 2005, 09:14 AM:
 
Greenside Dennis. Light shy, due to Utah road hunters.
 

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Posted by Cdog911 (Member # 7) on July 18, 2005, 05:17 PM:
 

quote:

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In my own experience

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It was about there that your argument fell apart.
 

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Posted by Cdog911 (Member # 7) on July 18, 2005, 05:39 PM:
 
Leonard,

All personal opinion aside, I don't doubt that your suggestion is viable. All packing or group-oriented animals have evolved means by which they communicate. Visual cues, as well as audible. Since the security and physiological wellbeing of the individual coyote, as well as the pack, is connected in many ways to their comfort level (countless studies have revealed the adverse effects of crowding and its influence on density-dependent adverse effects), it only stands to reason that a given species would have evolved some means by which to positively influence their surroundings to make their life situation tenable (even if it means siomply getting up and leaving). And I don't think it's anthropomorphic to think of a coyote as being "smart" enough to recognize a less than optimal situation. (I am always amused at how many people decline to regard the coyote as being intelligent, yet they deny that they are stupid. Hmmm.)

In any event, we've seen and heard of evidence right here amongst the pompous asses of this site that coyotes are able to rudimentarily communicate between individuals (inter-pack). What keeps us from thinking that a similar means of communication doesn't exist in the intra-pack realm? If we could only find out how to say, "FREE BEER!!!" in coyote, we'd really have something.
 

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Posted by Rich Higgins (Member # 3) on July 18, 2005, 06:45 PM:
 
It was about there that your argument fell apart.
Lance, you crack me up.

Since I know it all, permit me to pompously state that the AZFG told me that they know that coyotes will travel as far as 76 miles to the antelope fawning grounds each spring which accounts for the 69% mortality rate among fawns attributed to coyote predation. Since it is doubtful that scent will travel that far they can only surmise that information is being shared through long range vocalizations. They also believe that the nomads that appear at deadpiles and carcasses also learn those locations through the "grapevine". Cadieux stated that when yip-howls are issued from pack to pack to pack he could visualize the ripple effect extending to the ocean.

Rich Higgins
ProStaff Member
Huntmasters Pampass Know It All Team
 

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Posted by Bryan J (Member # 106) on July 18, 2005, 06:56 PM:
 
I think that it could be possible. I have had many occasions that a coyote threat barked right after my first series that escalated to group howls then distant groups joined in. I usually had a slow day in that area.

However, the past two years I have had 4 occasions when a coyote has threat barked in response to distress sounds that didn’t escalate to group howls. 3 times it was right after the first series and the first time it was much later in the stand. The first time it happened I didn’t know what to think, I didn’t see any other coyotes and had the mindset that every thing the coyotes were doing were in response to what I was doing. The other three experiences kind of changed my mind set. The threat barks were followed by multiple coyotes charging to the call. I am now convinced that there was another coyote that we didn’t see on that first stand. The only conclusion that I can draw is that sometimes the treat barks could be at each other as if to say this rabbit is mine? Then other times it could be at me saying “We know you Bryan, that wood whistle isn’t going to work today!”
 

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Posted by Doggitter (Member # 489) on July 18, 2005, 08:18 PM:
 
I'd like to throw a little side step in on this one. Last trip last spring I had a single setup after a couple blanks that brought responses from 3 packs in rapid succession, semi lined up nw to se. I would guesstimate that the nw pack was 1/2 mile away, the middle a touch north of me but west and the south probably 3/4 mile out. Didn't get a single taker on the visual then. Went on my way with an out and back trip, called the same area on the way through again. Called in 2 on consecutive setups there. The "out" leg reads like what is being discussed here but I can't figure why the about face on the return. Course, the uncertainty of it is one reason why I go. :>)
 

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Posted by Krustyklimber (Member # 72) on July 18, 2005, 10:53 PM:
 
I thought I'd make it abundantly clear why I BELIEVE what I do.

And Leonard asked the question "Do you believe...?"

He never said "okay everyone but Krusty"...

quote sums up a lot for me.

"If ever the day should come when one may camp in the West, and hear not a note of the coyote's joyous stirring evening song..."

Ya know what, that's EXACTLY the case here. I can camp just about anywhere on this side of the Cascade Mountains, and have spent hundreds and hundreds of nights outdoors, and the song of the coyote is NOT part of the experience.

It's not that there arent ANY coyotes, either.

Sleeping nights on the side of a cliff, gives you a commanding view, and sound is really easy to pick up, the "experience" of being an outdoorsman is not limited to those who call predators.

So, do coyotes howl, to warn others to stay out of their territory?

Why does a coyote need a territory?

What if there ARE NO OTHERS?

Animals don't DO something without a reason, would they still DO it, if the reason goes away?

Krusty

[ July 18, 2005, 11:55 PM: Message edited by: Leonard ]
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on July 18, 2005, 11:58 PM:
 
I apologize, Krusty. I edited your post, but didn't have the heart to edit Lance's. Only because it was too damned funny.....
 

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Posted by Greenside (Member # 10) on July 19, 2005, 05:29 AM:
 

quote:

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Since I know it all, permit me to pompously state that the AZFG told me that they know that coyotes will travel as far as 76 miles to the antelope fawning grounds each spring which accounts for the 69% mortality rate among fawns attributed to coyote predation. Since it is doubtful that scent will travel that far they can only surmise that information is being shared through long range vocalizations.

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I wonder if any of those officals considered behavioral adaptation or basic instinct rather than vocalization. What vocalization would salmon or caribou use to start migrating?

I bet the coyote migration has been going on for hundreds of years and I doubt that it's started by a couple of muster calls.

Dennis

[ July 19, 2005, 05:32 AM: Message edited by: Greenside ]
 

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Posted by CougerBait (Member # 149) on July 19, 2005, 06:33 AM:
 
Krusty,
I find it interesting that you don't hear any coyotes at night in the cascades. Heck I here them by my house atleast once a week. I think that you just don't go camping enough! It isn't impossible to call coyotes here like you lead everbody to believe. Granted the sucess ratio isn't like other places. And it is fairly thick here. But you make it sound impossible. Just 2 weekend ago I killed 3. I think that you might just need to set up a little better.
 

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Posted by DAA (Member # 11) on July 19, 2005, 07:57 AM:
 
This reminds me of an anecdote that Wiley has shared several times. About the coyote observed issuing a howl from a carcass, and the other coyotes that showed up later being backtracked in the snow. My memory ain’t for shit, so my version may be slightly off, but the observer tracked the late arriving coyotes and found that they had come from over a mile away, having made a sudden change in direction to head straight for the carcass when the first coyote howled.

My take is that yes, absolutely, one coyote or one group of coyotes can and do put all coyotes within earshot on high alert with certain vocalizations. Result being harder calling in that area.

My hearing ain’t for shit either, so how often and how far a “chain reaction” might occur, I could not begin to say.

- DAA
 

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Posted by Rich Higgins (Member # 3) on July 19, 2005, 08:01 AM:
 
[QUOTEI wonder if any of those officals considered behavioral adaptation or basic instinct rather than vocalization. What vocalization would salmon or caribou use to start migrating?] [/QUOTE]

Coyotes migrating like salmon and caribou? How about like lemmings? Of course that would take the fun out of calling.
On Fri nite in Idaho two pronghorns were struck and killed by a vehicle. We saw them lying next to the road Sat. AM as we drove into the restricted area. Sunday morning as we were leaving the area to checkout, using the VHF antenna,Mike located an alpha male near the pronhorns. It was remarkable to him because the coyote had to cross two other territories to get there and it was with the prevailing wind, he could not have scented the RK. Logical deduction... longrange vocalizations such as the AZ. coyotes use to alert others to carrion. There were no caribou or salmon in the study area.
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on July 19, 2005, 10:06 AM:
 
First of all, thanks Dave. I remember that story. Definitely make you think.

Second

quote:

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There were no caribou or salmon in the study area.

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quote:

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...Western coyotes so much Dumber than the Eastern variety? Doesn't their sound travel across the Mississippi?

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Suppose so? However, as someone pointed out to me in an email, those dumb western coyotes can cross the Mississippi River when it is frozen; thereby becoming a lot smarter, in the process.

Good hunting. LB

Damn, it sure is getting warm around here!

[ July 19, 2005, 02:15 PM: Message edited by: Leonard ]
 

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Posted by albert (Member # 98) on July 19, 2005, 04:47 PM:
 
Do they communicate long distances? Seems pretty obvious that they do. Why else howl in the first place? What are they saying? Don’t have a clue. Personally I can’t tell the difference between a threat bark howl and a warning bark howl. Sometimes they approach, sometimes they don’t.

Do I worry about moving away after frustrating stand? No. Then again I will put a hundred miles on during a 15 stand day.
 

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Posted by Krustyklimber (Member # 72) on July 19, 2005, 07:12 PM:
 
Cougerbait,

I NEVER said impossible, I have said "it's hard to do".

Gee... I never thought of Vancouver/Portland as a mountainous place?
Isn't that in the Willamette VALLEY?

Krusty

[ July 19, 2005, 07:17 PM: Message edited by: Krustyklimber ]
 

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Posted by CougerBait (Member # 149) on July 19, 2005, 07:58 PM:
 
Krusty,
I hunt the side of mount st. hellens. My bear canyon is at 4000 feet. And the timber here is just as thick as they are where you hunt. I know you are smart enough to know that the cascades run a little farther south than I-90. The hills that I hunt are just as big if not bigger that the humtulips. I really don't think that the size of the hill that you hunt matters. It is the way you hunt them. I have called coyotes in every part of this state. All different kinds of terain. I'm not a pro. I also don't shoot 100 coyotes a year. I think that 20-50 coyotes a year is about what I average on the wet side. I know that dosen't compare to guys that have better hunting than we do. But I think most guys on the wet side are lucky to kill more than 10 dogs a year (the only reason I say this is I haven't found any body that has, except for Bruce). Most people will not take the time to hunt this side. They say that it is too thick. That is fine by me. The way gas prices are I would reather hunt this side any ways. Plus there is less compition over here. I like hunting hard.We do hunt the farm lands just as much as the mountains. And kill about the same in each.

This wasn't ment as a chalange or a put down. I just find it hard to believe that you aren't hearing songdogs in the hills at night. I have had them light up at 10 in the morning!
 

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Posted by Krustyklimber (Member # 72) on July 19, 2005, 09:09 PM:
 

quote:

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I find it interesting that you don't hear any coyotes at night in the cascades. Heck I here them by my house at least once a week.

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Hearing them in the Willamette Valley, doesn't explain why you think I should hear them in the mountains.

How many coyotes have you called in King or Snohomish Counties?

What was it meant as?

Krusty

[ July 19, 2005, 09:10 PM: Message edited by: Krustyklimber ]
 

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Posted by Melvin (Member # 634) on July 19, 2005, 09:49 PM:
 
I have a few questions to ask.

1.Why would territorial coyotes share there bounty with coyotes outside there family group?We know that coyotes in the same family will show aggressive behavior towards one another while feeding.Would they not be even worse with strange coyotes?

2.Is all this coyote vocalization at the dead cow,deer,pronghorn meant to let other coyotes(outside the group)in on the feed?Or are they naturally vocal when feeding on a large bounty and give there location away unintentional?

3.A nomadic coyote comes upon a carcass.Why would he start howling to let strange coyotes know where he and the carcass are at?Would he not be taking a chance that these strange coyotes in the area,would not try to fight or kill him?

4.If they aren't vocal with a small animal carcass,why are they with a large?and want to share it with strangers?

This thread brings many questions to mind..I sorta picked this out of what i read.

I know you all are not coyotes,so it's ok if there is no answeres.
 

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Posted by Dogleg (Member # 662) on July 19, 2005, 10:11 PM:
 
In Saskatchewan there are few major river valley systems that I like to call. Most of it is prime real estate, coyote-wise and in places there is precious little else for cover or terrain breaks. In places it can amount to several hundred miles of concentrated, uninterrupted coyote country. When you get a pack lit up, the next gets into the act and the next. Because of the high valley walls keeping wind down and funneling the sound, you can hear bunches for miles in both directions. I have no doubt that after a bit of time coyotes in Alberta are howling because of some noise that I made in Sask. That should qualify as a chain reaction? You can still kill those coyotes by moving on down the line. After a few sets there has been wave after wave of howls rolling down the pipe. If they were sending a warning that was accepted by the next pack, I would think that the first set-up might as well be the last. Sometimes I think it helps, sometimes nothing works, but moving toward the closest answers,as much as the wind allows works for me. I use it in a lot of other terrain types too.
Mike
 

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Posted by CougerBait (Member # 149) on July 20, 2005, 06:06 AM:
 
Willamette Valley is in Oregon, and I not refurring to the valley. Don't know why you just don't understand that. Do you think that you have special coyotes in just 2 1/2 hours north of me? And the areas that you are talking about is a valley. I have called 2 in up there. I was NE of Everett. And I call them and hear them in the Cascades.

I give up totaly on you now. All you like to do any more is argue. I really don't have time for that. Good luck pouting and feeling sorry for your self.
 

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Posted by R.Shaw (Member # 73) on July 20, 2005, 07:30 AM:
 
I tend to agree that there is some kind of communicating going on. At what level, I can only speculate. Mostly, I believe, they are saying one of two things. Come over here or stay away from here. Just about the right level for a nonthinking and nonreasoning animal.

If they were capable of much more, doubles and triples in traps would be nonexistant. First coyote in would warn others to stay away, danger is present here. When in fact, the opposite is true. The first coyote actually attracts other coyotes to their demise with it's barks and howls.

And by the way,walking up on multiples is about the only time I hear barks and howls in the daytime.

Randy
 

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Posted by Rich Higgins (Member # 3) on July 20, 2005, 01:09 PM:
 
Randy, if you wanted to trap a human being probably the best way to do so would be to place a small child in a trap and have it scream for help. You would surely catch the mother, probably the father and brothers and sisters as well. Human beings are prone to panic in the face of great fear or emotional stress. The logical thought processes cease. That is why the government trains it's personnel that are involved in dangerous high-stress jobs to the point that they can function on muscle memory without conscious thought. You call the the coyote a non-thinking and non-reasoning animal in one paragraph and then condemn it for not functioning in a manner that most humans aren't capable of in the next.

[ July 20, 2005, 02:31 PM: Message edited by: Rich Higgins ]
 

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Posted by Rich Higgins (Member # 3) on July 20, 2005, 01:28 PM:
 
Melvin, this one answer addresses all four of your questions.

quote:

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1.Why would territorial coyotes share there bounty with coyotes outside there family group?We know that coyotes in the same family will show aggressive behavior towards one another while feeding.Would they not be even worse with strange coyotes?

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They would not do so willingly. However aggregation numbers are sometimes too high to defend against. Camanzind observed 26 coyotes, as an aggreagation, take possession of an elk carcass from the resident pack on the NER. Crabtree and Ryden observed the same thing in Yellowstone. When the numbers of intruders become so great the the residents can no longer defend the carcass they have no choice but to share.In Africa hyenas will take a kill away from a pride of lionesses when the hyena numbers reach three to one over the lions.( NGC last nite ) That is the benefit of aggregations and since at certain times of the year as much as 60% of the population is nomadic it would be in the transients coyotes best interests to announce the location of deadpiles or carcasses and to respond to such announcements.

Rich Higgins
Prostaff member
Huntmasters Pampass Know It All Team
 

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Posted by R.Shaw (Member # 73) on July 20, 2005, 01:55 PM:
 
Rich,

You're right.

I was trying to say if a coyote was overly concerned about communicating the whereabouts of food and danger, then where is that same concern in the trapping example?

I have found fresh bite marks on the flanks of trapped coyotes with no coyotes in nearby traps.I assume this was from other coyotes who came to the sound of barks and howls of the trapped coyote. More than likely their intentions were not to help. I have found several red fox and one grey that were dead in traps. Killed and some even mutialted by coyotes. It stands to reason that they would try to do the same to their own kind no matter what the trapped coyote is trying to communicate.

Around here, I have heard warning barks on a few occasions. I believe the coyote senses something is just not right, but not sure exactly what it is. Had the coyote got a good whiff of me, he would be beating feet with ears pinned back and head 4 inches off the ground. He would be too busy getting the H out of there and definately no time for commuicating my location with idle chitchat.

And one more thing. Rich, I believe you know more about coyote vocalizations than anyone I know. Most of it is based on speculation from vast experience, but knowledge just the same.

Randy
 

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Posted by Krustyklimber (Member # 72) on July 20, 2005, 02:00 PM:
 

quote:

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I give up totaly on you now.

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GOOD!

I never asked for your opinion or your advice.

I don't LEAD anyone anywhere, people LIKE YOU jump to your own conclusions... and anyone who decides to follow my lead is an idiot.

I don't feel sorry for myself, I don't care anymore, if I ever call in a coyote or not (especially ILLEGALLY).

20-50 coyotes a year... as Vic would say, "that's incredible".

Back to the subject this thread IS about;

So, do coyotes howl, to warn others to stay out of their territory?

Why does a coyote need a territory?

What if there ARE NO OTHERS?

Krusty
 

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Posted by Rich Higgins (Member # 3) on July 20, 2005, 02:26 PM:
 
Randy, I really wish I did know a great deal about their vocalizations. The truth is that I'm simply at a level that I have more questions than most. I can take solace in the fact that the biologists that I bug the crap out of with my incessant questions have even more questions than I. And if you think that we on the board can get a little hot or fiesty with each other you ought to hear what goes on at the academia level. It ain't pretty.

[ July 20, 2005, 02:28 PM: Message edited by: Rich Higgins ]
 

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Posted by CougerBait (Member # 149) on July 20, 2005, 10:32 PM:
 


And that is all I have to say about that!

[ July 20, 2005, 10:33 PM: Message edited by: CougerBait ]
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on July 21, 2005, 06:12 PM:
 
This is in the form of a public notice.

KRUSTY, quit bothering the customers!

I already wrote you twice. This is your last chance to escape terrible consequences.

....and don't write me another long sappy letter. I told you what to do, and you aren't doing it.

The Management
 

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Posted by Melvin (Member # 634) on July 22, 2005, 09:35 AM:
 
Rich,thanks for giving me you're answere to those questions.One of the reasons i asked the questions,'when calling from a stand,there are times you will call in two large coyotes that have there ears,face and other parts of there bodys chewed up.I took this as overlap and they were fighting over the food in that area.For them to share there bounty with other coyotes, would seem hard to except.
 

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Posted by Rich Higgins (Member # 3) on July 22, 2005, 12:29 PM:
 
Melvin another jewel from one of Mike Jaeger's studies
They captured 94 coyotes 142 times. Some were radio collared, all were tagged. Only 9 of 30 resident(territorial) coyotes were captured within their core territory. All others were captured in ovrlapping ranges or in other territories.'
That would account for your trapped coyotes being attacked.
They concluded that "general wariness or neophobia in familiar areas was an important cause of spatial vulnerablilty: although heightened investigatory behavior in unfamiliar areas cannot be ruled out as an additional factor."
Conclusion: some coyotes will shy away from disturbances within familiar areas but investigate them in unfamiliar areas.
 

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Posted by Melvin (Member # 634) on July 22, 2005, 05:53 PM:
 
Rich,I know i'm being a pest bugging you for information but this could be helpful for me and maybe others.

Quote:-
Conclusion: some coyotes will shy away from disturbances within familiar areas but investigate them in unfamiliar areas.

If i was calling in an area that was unfamiliar to coyotes that were out of there territorial grounds,they would likely respond to my calling?where upon,in familiar ground they may not?Especially if they had detected or got the scent from callers in there domain and became call shy?I have gave up calling some areas because of calling pressure.Maybe this was a mistake?they still could produce for me?

Rich,believe me,these coyotes are getting smarter and harder to call!All these clubs got hunters out'trapping and calling' by the hundreds and it's getting tougher and harder as time goes by.In the last 3 or 4 years coyote hunting has increased dramatically in this state.Increasing ones knowledge about the animal he pursues can be very helpful(reason for this last question.)
 

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Posted by Rich (Member # 112) on July 22, 2005, 08:24 PM:
 
"I really wish I did know a great deal about their vocalizations. The truth is that I'm simply at a level that I have more questions than most."
----------------
Rich Higgins,
Now that is something that several of us can agree on. The more we try to figure out the coyote, the more confused we seem to become. I think maybe we try to be too scientific regarding coyote language. We know that coyotes will approach certain yips and howls of another coyote. From a coyote hunter's point of view, that really should be enough to make us happy. So does all of that make ME happy? Nope. I have some of the same questions that you do.
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on July 22, 2005, 09:24 PM:
 
I have been thinking about this "territory stuff".

quote:

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Only 9 of 30 resident(territorial) coyotes were captured within their core territory. All others were captured in ovrlapping ranges or in other territories.'
That would account for your trapped coyotes being attacked.

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Now, I don't know how they set up boundaries, but it seems to me that they must share resources. Like, where water is scarce, like in the desert; they can't control all of those strays that need to cross territory to get a drink. Then, as a tank dries up, as most of these are catchment basins, the coyotes would need to adjust the scope of their territory, as a survival mechanism.

That's just one detail. I can see others, seasonal dispersal, breeding, extreme weather conditions. For instance, I have seen where coyotes are forced from the mountains into the valley floors, in a heavy snow. I do not believe they have any thought of respecting territorial boundaries as they seek shelter from a blizzard.

All I am saying is that I haven't studied these things, just casually observed. I can certainly see where all the drawn lines don't mean squat when conditions change. And, that's one thing about conditions...they change.

Therefore, I (sort of) question the above figures, (9 0f 30) mainly because there are so many things going on that we don't know, and the term; "resident" coyote strikes me as very subjective, unless I were to see real documentation. Maybe this concerns breeding pairs, or something like that?

Good hunting. LB
 

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Posted by 2dogs (Member # 649) on July 23, 2005, 05:55 AM:
 
Interesting discussion.

I watched a documentary on coyotes a couple yrs back on cable. One part of this vid-clip. It shown this very large coyote[perhaps male]. Who had crossed onto an alpha-pr's territory.

This tresspasser was eating on "their" deer carcass. Then, here came the resident pair to confront...[They were much smaller than this coyote].

They both charged at him/her, et ran it off w/o a hard fight. Perhaps a 100yrds or so. This straggler continued to move off, w/o further pushing.

The "narraitor" stated, "Even though this [overlapper] was larger" It...[he/she] knew they were tresspassing, et would offer little resistance to confronting the resident coyote[s].

As for the term "resident" I personally think of the [alpha pair]. Who continue to breed & hold their territory.

[ July 23, 2005, 06:08 AM: Message edited by: 2dogs ]
 

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Posted by Rich Higgins (Member # 3) on July 23, 2005, 11:49 AM:
 
Melvin, I really do sympathize with your calling predicament, but it is one shared by callers in many states including mine. As more pressure is exerted on the coyotes they will adapt. It does not take a close call to teach a coyote to avoid certain sounds. They will learn to avoid danger from other coyotes.
Stuart Ellins is researching coyote communication and in one experiment he seperated two different groups of coyotes into two kennels and fed both groups sheep meat. One group's was laced with lithium which made the coyotes violently ill and they refused to eat sheep again. They combined the coyotes into one enclosure and immediately NONE of the coyotes would eat sheep meat. He doesn't know if the message was relayed by a flare in pheromones, an undetected change in behavior or body language but somehow through some means that Ellins hasn't figured out yet the one group was able to convey to the other group "Don't eat that shit."
Melvin, IT WILL NOT GET EASIER. No one can tell you to how to set-up a stand and how to call that will work on all of your educated coyotes. They are all different individuals with different personalities and behaviors. You will learn which techniques are more successful over time as you learn more about your Eastern coyotes.
Twenty years ago it was common to call multiples on most stands here in Az. They would come directly to the call with enthusiasm. Now in most areas they come more cautiously, and in some areas they rarely come directly in. This spring the AZ F&G Dept sponsored a coyote calling event on the Rim to reduce coyote numbers just prior to antelope fawning season. During the two day event 44 experienced callers, mostly from the two big predator clubs in this area, killed 9 coyotes.
IT WILL NOT GET BETTER.
Successful callers will learn the nature and behaviors of the coyotes in their areas and develope techniques that will exploit the coyotes use of terrain and cover in their approach to the downwind side.
Remote areas with relatively unpressured populations of coyotes are going to become Club Med to serious callers.
 

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Posted by Curt2u (Member # 74) on July 23, 2005, 11:51 AM:
 
If I may take a sec to quote a very respected coyote sage...I think this about sums it up. "They're just a dog"...

Good hunting
 

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Posted by Rich Higgins (Member # 3) on July 23, 2005, 11:55 AM:
 
Rich, welcome back. I'm glad you are recuperating well. My fater-in-law just went through double bypass and almost didn't make it. He ain't as tough as you.
You know that of all the studies of coyotes that have been conducted, all of the reams of facts that have been discovered, very little has any application to calling. Still all of it is fascinating.
 

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Posted by Rich Higgins (Member # 3) on July 23, 2005, 12:18 PM:
 
Leonard, stable conditions among stable populations.
BTW, resident coyotes are those that live within a defined area and protect it from intruders for the express purpose of breeding and perpetuating the species. All members of that group, the breeding pair, the "tenders", betas that are usually adults from previous litters, sometimes siblings, and occasionally a transient that is recruited because assets are attractive and contested, are residents. As opposed to non-territorial coyotes that are called nomads or transients. In unusual conditions in which resources are unlimited, coyotes don't bother to establish and defend territories.
Under some conditions groups cannot defend assets. Under some conditions they may not even try.
Three years ago when the 11 year drought was at it's worse, Jim Wegge, who was the AZF&G enforcement officer for Unit 20 told me he had found 6 active dens in an earthen canal bank along a one mile stretch. I asked him how in the hell did the coyotes sort out their territorial issues under those conditions. He replied that apparently coyotes are more tolerant of the presence of other coyotes during times of climatic stress.
 

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Posted by Rich Higgins (Member # 3) on July 23, 2005, 12:22 PM:
 
Curt, you got to get it right.
"How smart can it be? It's just a mangy lo' dog."
 

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Posted by Doggitter (Member # 489) on July 23, 2005, 12:33 PM:
 
Rich, "They combined the coyotes into one enclosure and immediately NONE of the coyotes would eat sheep meat.", any idea if the enclosure was new to both groups or the same "home" one group had been using?
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on July 23, 2005, 12:49 PM:
 

quote:

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In unusual conditions in which resources are unlimited, coyotes don't bother to establish and defend territories.

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quote:

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apparently coyotes are more tolerant of the presence of other coyotes during times of climatic stress.

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I think that pretty well sums up my thoughts on the matter.

Another oldie, but goodie; by Murray Burnham: "Sometimes this shit don't work"

Good hunting. LB
 

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Posted by 2dogs (Member # 649) on July 23, 2005, 01:44 PM:
 
Some of you guys continue to talk about "Beta's" last yrs pups. Staying on in the "Alpha pairs" territory to help raise this yrs pups. I find this interesting.

Of all the winters, I've hunted. What occurs around my area's is. A pair & their pups [family pack]...[Alpha's & their off-spring]. The Alpha's run their yearling pups off in the late fall.

Then "generally" around [mid-Janauary] is when groups [non-paired] will gather again, [forming nomadic packs]. To start pairing up.

Personally, I've never seen...Nor have I ever heard from a farmer. About seeing a [pack] from December to mid January.
 

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Posted by Kokopelli (Member # 633) on July 23, 2005, 01:53 PM:
 
I once had a cowboy give me some pretty good advice. "The coyote can't think like we do.......he just thinks he can."
 

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Posted by Rich Higgins (Member # 3) on July 23, 2005, 02:46 PM:
 
Doggitter, they moved the two groups from their kennels into a large enclosure.

2dogs, you just aren’t seeing them together. Mating season begins around Dec. 1 and is the season of greatest sociality and aggression among coyotes. The pups are self-sufficient and parental bonds have relaxed and the breeding adults are expanding and marking their territorial boundaries. The alpha male has been observed urinating an average of once every two minutes during this stage. The breeding female often accompanies the male on these patrols because the process is instrumental in establishing a strong bond between the breeding pair. They do assemble most evenings and perform the greetings because it is necessary to reaffirm social ties and status. They do not have to hunt or roam together. It just isn’t usually necessary.
 

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Posted by 2dogs (Member # 649) on July 23, 2005, 03:54 PM:
 
Rich,

Sounds logical, I can buy into that. Good explanation.
 

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Posted by Rich (Member # 112) on July 23, 2005, 05:58 PM:
 
Rich Higgins,
I ain't so tough, but I got mean and ornery from hanging around coyotes so much. Your Uncle Jay was raised in a coyote den, which is part of the reason he is so ugly. I am feeling better now than I did before the surgery, but still not ready for foot races.

You are right about those coyote studies being interesting. A man just can never learn TOO much about coyotes.
 

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Posted by Melvin (Member # 634) on July 23, 2005, 06:30 PM:
 
2dogs,this past winter-Dec.,Jan.,and Feb.we hunted a pack of 5 coyotes.We took out one and the other 4 stayed together the rest of the winter.So what goes on here?I don't think they always split up during the breeding period'at least from what i have seen on more than one occasion.More often than not i will see the tracks of a pair of coyotes during breeding season,'yet on occasion i do come upon the tracks of 3 or more running together.You might say these weren't breeding coyotes,but when a female coyote squats and'pee'and there is'pee' and blood mixed',i would guess they were breeding?

Leonard,i liked your post and view on territorial coyotes.you're personal observations and experience over the years can't all be wrong.I agree with what you had to say one hundred percent.I think things would have been different with Dr.Jaegers studies,if the factors came into play like you stated,blizzards,droughts,food,water and others.I'm guessing his studies were based on normal conditions.I'm also guessing that when food,water and weather is good,coyotes would more than likely have there own territory staked out?
 

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Posted by 2dogs (Member # 649) on July 23, 2005, 08:17 PM:
 
Interesting Melvin. I have given Rich's response more thought.

I mostly hunt snow cover. Which generally runs from After the first wk of December-to mid to late March. What still puzzles me...thinking back. I can't remember a time, when I've came across [more] than a "pair" of tracks. Except around the middle of Janauary on.

Now going back to this scenario of the [Aplha pair] staying alone, until the yearlings are called back at night, or for whatever/whenever reason.

I should've came across groups of tracks, instead of a single or a pair.

When I spot a coyote or a pair of them [as long as their not moving]. I'll drive around the mile section, looking for other coyotes as well, as seeing where [they, the ones I just spotted] went into this section.

The scenario of what Rich, spoke of. I should've ran across group tracks, before mid-Janauary. Now...I'm wondering, why I haven't.

I work a 24hr shift, then I'm off for 48hrs. I spend just about every one of my off days hunting coyote in the snow. From a skiff of snow, to heavy snow. I've never, that I can recall. Seen group tracks, until around mid-Jan.

These coyotes around here, like to run; fencelines + farm driveways, creeks, valleys/sloughs & ridgelines.

Along with spotting, I'm constantly looking for tracks. I've never kept a ledger. I'm going to start this winter. The quest continues...
 

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Posted by Curt2u (Member # 74) on July 24, 2005, 08:02 AM:
 
LOL! Rich, that does sound more accurate. I suck at remembering quotes.

Kokopelli, that's a good quote too. I like that.

Good hunting
 

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Posted by Gerald Stewart (Member # 162) on July 24, 2005, 03:17 PM:
 
Let me throw something out that may or may not contribute to the discussion. We have a recording in our library that Dad did in Yellowstone back in the early 70's that is a group of coyotes that have detected his presence and are giving him hell with what I would call a warning\threat chorus of vocalizations.

We never used the sound as a published one but I have put it out in the past as a test tape to see if it would generate any response from other coyotes. The recording started out as single dog fussing at Dad and eventually grew to at least 4 total. These very well could have been and probably were from the same family group...maybe?

It is one of the clearest recordings with great gain due to the proxiemity of the dogs to Dads position. I just never developed a feel for the sound being one that would attract other coyotes. I could not even get others to simply respond vocally to it so it stayed in the can.....except for two occasions where I let others use it for a web site sound and background audio for a gallery display(in Arizona).

About a year or so ago I had HS purchase a competitors unit in my continual search for copyright infringment. I heard a sound on the unit that was strongly familiar but I could not match it to my recording. It was very frustrating because I knew in my heart it was ours. I recently was searching for sounds through the FindSounds site and came across another Parks and Wildlife site that had a kids page with coyote sounds linked to the Original site I had loaned the sound to. That is when the light went on in my head remembering the request and my agreement to let them have the sound.

I went to the site and downloaded the sound and it matched the competitors file exactly. I now realize that I evidently had done some editing of the sound to provide it to the site in the length of time they had requested. That would explain why I could not get it to match the original loop.

I said all of that to say this. Since the time that I sampled the competitors unit I have seen others mention on various boards,the sound by the competitors name stating that the sound has worked well for them on the competitors unit. Maybe we did not test it well enough initially.

Maybe coyotes can summon other coyotes with that threat\warning vocalization if they believe that the percieved threat is greater than the intrusion of other coyotes into their territory. What do you think?

[ July 24, 2005, 03:20 PM: Message edited by: Gerald Stewart ]
 

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Posted by Cal Taylor (Member # 199) on July 24, 2005, 04:07 PM:
 
Gerald and all,
Most of you know that most of my calling is done on family groups in the summer using decoy dogs, so I get every major threat reaction possible. Barking, threat howls for long time periods and some unique sounds and my opinion is that it only seems to affect that particular family group. I have never had another coyote answer or respond to those sounds. But if you are near the den, and only one parent is there (usually the female) when you get her fired up you can bet it won't be long until papa and anyone else tied to that particular den shows up. As far as a warning to others, it doesn't seem to affect them too much. I have had all the carrying on at one den site including rifle shots and moved to another den site that was well withing hearing and they really didn't have much of any reaction until it was their doorstep you were standing on. They don't seem to care much until their boundy lines are crossed. Same with being too far off of a den site. They might pop up and look things over, but don't really care about challenges and warning barks until you cross that magical invisible line. Then depending on the time of year and how big the pups are it is either fight or flight. I have worked two bunches in the last two days that the old dog will blast by and fuzz my dogs a little and take them one way, while everybody else hauls ass the other. It's that time of year, the pups are big enough and mobile enough that they just leave given the opportunity.

[ July 24, 2005, 04:07 PM: Message edited by: Cal Taylor ]
 

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Posted by Rich Higgins (Member # 3) on July 24, 2005, 05:59 PM:
 
Gerald, the challenge howl is probably the most mis-used of all vocalizations because of it's narrow purpose.
Coyote vocalizations are a graded continuum and the warning bark and threat howl are at the end of the list as the most intense. If you will regard the warning bark as a warning to stay away and not approach closer then you can consider the threat howl to be a demand that you leave immediately.
Biologists catagorize it as an agonistic vocalization but in reality it is interspecific in use. They will light up at any intruder within their core territory that they feel threatened by regardless of it's species.
I have a lot of video of coyotes displaying in front of me with the threat bark howls at all times of the year. The only criteria seems to be that I be within their defended core territory and let them elevate the intensity to that level. Unlike Cal's experience I rarely have the whole family join in the display. It is usually the male or the female doing the threatening while the others remain at a distance or out of sight.
I have video of at least three separate coyotes on different occasions remaining in front of me for several minutes while I tweak them a little with different sights and sounds and scents. They seem to be highly interested if not actually entertained. One of them laid down in the shade a hundred yards or so away and watched as two other coyotes reacted to all the commotion. Finally after several minutes I blew a threat howl, which is essentially a demand that they leave now, and since we were not within their defended territory, they left. As much as 60% of the population is transient at certain times of the year and ALL transients would leave if you so demanded. The only coyotes that would be compelled to approach that vocalization would be resident coyotes within their core territory. And even them Kathleen Fullmers research showed that often times they will reposition themselves within their core areas where they feel more secure before responding with an approach. Which means that they may take a longer time to work themselves into an approach than you allot to the stand. The actions of the Lamar Valley coyotes to the wolf reintroduction comes to mind.
Cal is right also in that the closer you are to the den during denning and pup rearing seasons the more intense the reaction. Vern Dorn was asked how close he liked to be to the den when calling and he responded that he wanted both feet in the hole.
The vocalization is highly effective within a very narrow window. But it also has the potential to have the opposite effect that you want if conditions are not just right.

[ July 24, 2005, 06:03 PM: Message edited by: Rich Higgins ]
 

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Posted by Gerald Stewart (Member # 162) on July 24, 2005, 07:38 PM:
 
Good info guys. That probably explains both my experience with those sounds as well as the fellas that claim the sound "works for them". They just probably happened to be in the right place at the right time. Useful in a very narrow window of circumstance.

I can not bring myself to put that sound in the line because it would not be useful to the majority most of the time. The company that is using it even labels it with a title that is not even close to what it really is. They will be getting a contact from us in the near future.
 

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