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Posted by Jrbhunter (Member # 459) on October 13, 2005, 07:19 AM:
What do you think are the most productive coyote sounds from the list provided below? I'm looking to pull about 7 or 8 from this list, which ones would be best?
1. Coyote adult distress
2. Coyote adult female communicative howls
3. Coyote adult female eastern territorial call
4. Coyote young female howls
5. Coyote adults fighting over food
6. Coyote adult growls
7. Coyote adult hunting whines
8. Coyote adult beta male challenge call
9. Coyote adult male challenge howls
10. Coyote adult male territorial
11. Coyote adult male territorial aggressive
12. Coyote adult male and female territorial
13. Coyote adult dominant male
14. Coyote adult dominant male rally howl
15. Coyote adult dominant male group rally howl
16. Coyote adult male challenge duet
17. Coyote adult pair aggressive
18. Coyote adult male communicative howl
19. Coyote adult male and female howling
20. Coyote pup distress 3 weeks old
21. Coyote pup distress 10 weeks old
22. Coyote pup distress growls 8 weeks old
23. Coyote pups howling 5 months old
Posted by Dogleg (Member # 662) on October 13, 2005, 12:09 PM:
Jrbhunter,
1,3,5,8,10,11 and 21. Ya gotta have 21 ![[Wink]](wink.gif)
[ October 13, 2005, 12:11 PM: Message edited by: Dogleg ]
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on October 13, 2005, 12:39 PM:
I'm sure we will get some questions about these "labels"?
#3-5-21
Posted by Rich Higgins (Member # 3) on October 13, 2005, 02:02 PM:
These are always fun.
J, I would guess that you got this list from a commercial call website? Probably WT? The names are obviously contrived as a marketing ploy. Must be Bill Martz. ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
Let me ask you a few questions before I give you my opinion.
1. #2 confuses me. Since all howls are communicative by definition, was there a Coyote adult female uncommunicative howl?
2. #3 , since most lone howls are universal vocalizations does he list a coyote adult female WESTERN territorial howl?
3. #4, what are the young females communicating?
4. #8 and #9, what is the difference between an adult beta male challence call and an adult male challenge howl since beta males are adult coyotes.(past season pups are termed juveniles until after Jan when they become adults)
5. #10 and #11 have me stumped. Yip-howls are territorial declarations and serve as passive defense. They still should be regarded as aggressive. So what the hey is #11?
6. #12, is this a typical group yip-howl?
7. #13 what is this sound? Belch and a fart?
8. OK, #14 is probably a standard assembly howl. What the heck is #15? a group of males howling assembly? Where were the females?
9. #16 is this two males challenging anoher or two males challanging each other?
10. #17 wow, 2 of them being aggressive. What? Threat bark-howls, warning barks, yip-howls?
11. #18, see #2
12. #19, as specific as he has been regarding the other types of howls,
this one seems kinda generic.
13. #23, this one is also generic. What are the 5 month olds howling about? A five month old (oct.) still has juvenile features but it's behavior is typical coyote including it's vocalizations. What kind of howl?
My best guess is this list is from Wildlife Technologies. Perhaps Bill will be kind enough to drop in and join the discussion?
Posted by CBGC (Member # 643) on October 13, 2005, 02:19 PM:
To many sounds for me to remember how to make. I ll stick with the 4 or 5 I know and sometimes I am not to sure what they mean but they work. Mr. Higgins U have a way with words!
[ October 13, 2005, 02:22 PM: Message edited by: CBGC ]
Posted by Cdog911 (Member # 7) on October 13, 2005, 04:07 PM:
Probably came with an italicized discalimer that states, "Although many of the sounds produced and offered by Company * sound to be similar if not identical, the coyotes recognize differences between them that are not apparant to you." or something like that. In this way, you can spend five times as much to get the same product.
As I see it, all you need is lone howl, yip howl, ki-yi, bark, lost puppy howl, bark howl challenge.
In the lone howl genre, I can splinter off to your basic lone howl, versus your female invitation howl. I can barely tell the difference, but the guys that go with me sure are impressed. ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
I've yet to get enough wind to recreate the sound of two or three different coyotes yipping and howling with just my one howler. ![[Frown]](frown.gif)
I almost did once, but I passed out midway thru and still don't know if anything came in. Then again, my shoulder was wet and I could smell the subtle aroma of coyote pee when I regained consciousness. Don't know if there was a connection.
Ki-yi's fall into three different categories: adult coyote distress, pup distress (high), and freakin' really high puppy distress (leaves your boxers all caught up in your undercarriage kinda high). ![[Eek!]](eek.gif)
Lost puppy howl... that one's a secret.
And, challenge bark... well, don't need it very often but it's nice to have when you do. Don't see much need for more than one kind.
The rest of it just seems to be a good way to call your cash out of your wallet. Must work.
[ October 13, 2005, 05:06 PM: Message edited by: Cdog911 ]
Posted by Rich (Member # 112) on October 13, 2005, 05:15 PM:
Rich Higgins,
I absolutely hate it when you skirt around an issue that way. You can go ahead and tell us what you really think.
Posted by Jrbhunter (Member # 459) on October 13, 2005, 05:54 PM:
I thought it was a fairly simple question Rich... if you have a problem with Bill or the WT I can send you a link to his site so you can contact him instead of cluttering up another legitimate thread on Leonards site. ![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
Thanks for the info guys, keep it coming. Dogleg those are almost the exact ones I had picked out! What is it they say about great minds??? I forget.
Posted by Tim Behle (Member # 209) on October 13, 2005, 06:07 PM:
Jason,
Believe it or not, the Professor just gave you the best advice you are going to get.
The secret isn't in how much money you spend, it's in how much time you spend.
A buddy of mine is a plain flat broke Mexican, who doesn't have two nickels to rub together most days. His Camo consists of an old burlap feed sack he puts on his head and shoulders when calling. I gave him a roll of black tape a couple of years ago to put his broken mouthcall back together, he's still using it. Someone gave him a .223 a couple of years ago, but most days' it's either in the pawn shop, or he can't afford the ammo, so he shoots his 100+ coyotes a winter by calling them in close and shooting them in the head with a .22 long rifle.
It's not about what sounds you use, it's more about how often you make a sound.
Posted by Rich Higgins (Member # 3) on October 13, 2005, 06:50 PM:
Jr, I don't have a problem at all with Bill or his terrific e-caller. He is always entertaining and really livens a thread.
IF someone were to read my thread objectively, one should surmise that the questions I ask about specifically named howls were designed to make that person think and question the legitimate application of that specific vocalization. Is it any better or even different than any of the other 18 lone howls listed, or just a marketing ploy, REGARDLESS who is the vendor. The biologists (Barret, Jaeger, and Mitchell) that conduct discriminate analysis of spectagraphs of recordings of lone howls have determined that information is transmitted through high and low frequencies and their location within the fundamental harmonic. Amplitude, frequency, and emotional content change the meaning as well. As complex as the "language" is I cannot know what any but a very few lone howls mean and seriously doubt that any marketer can either. None of the biologists can.
My intention was to impress that fact upon you and then suggest the vocalizations that I know will work and why. I'll leave that to Rich Cronk.
I don't know what your problem with me is, but this is your legitimate thread and I won't clutter it further.
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on October 13, 2005, 08:04 PM:
Here's the thing, jrb. There is a long time debate about coyote vocalizations and how to interpret them, and whether some may be specific, and others are just individual differences. Some people call a "lone howl" a female invitation, stuff like that. Also, there has been a lot of discusion about the exact number of identifiable sounds. Some people claim there are only about 14 that we UNDERSTAND what they mean, and others claim there are twice that many. However, it is seldom that you would need more than four or five, just to hunt coyotes.
Also, Bill Martz is very controversial. He says a lot of things that either can't be proved, or gets rude, rather than engaging in a cordial discussion; therefore, people such as Rich do, and says things to try and pin him down. But, Rich is far from the only one to take issue with some of Bill's pronouncements.
But, I am positive that Higgins doesn't have any problem with you, as an individual. I think you took him wrong, he is strictly responding to the WT theories. Believe me, he is not the only one that thinks Bill is like a kamikaze; he likes to dive into a hail of bullets and then crash on deck.
He stimulates a lot of discussion, though!
Good hunting. LB
[ October 13, 2005, 08:07 PM: Message edited by: Leonard ]
Posted by Dogleg (Member # 662) on October 13, 2005, 09:05 PM:
Jrbhunter,
Those are the sounds that I use the most, along with a few prey sounds. Exactly what they mean doesn't make a lot of difference to me, but I do know what the end result has been; a lot of dead coyotes.Thats all I need to, or care to know.
Dogleg
Posted by Bill Martz (Member # 378) on October 14, 2005, 03:56 AM:
Leonard
You are the same man that said there are no 60
pound coyotes, correct? I believe you also laughed and mocked a man that was holding up a
66 pound coyote in a photograph, correct? Just
think, you said and believed these things just 4
years ago. Well, I quess you were wrong. Right
Leonard. You also stated that while hunting one
day you called in 11 coyotes at 1 stand and all of them approached in single file. Really Leonard. You also contend that you can call more coyotes with a mouth call then you could with an electronic caller. I don't know if you know this or not Leonard, but in the state of CA where you live all of the USDA federal trappers, their managers and the states county trappers (approx. 93 trappers) use the WT wildlife caller. Why do you think they spent $900 per caller and threw away their $10 mouth calls? By the way, their coyote harvest has risen dramatically since they have been using our equip. I can also remember when the term "howling" was not part of your vocabulary.
Mr. Higgins said the following:
"IF someone were to read my thread objectively, one should surmise that the questions I ask about
specifically named howls were designed to make
that person think and question the legitimate
application of that specific vocalization. Is it any better or even different than any of the other 18 lone howls listed, or just a marketing ploy, REGARDLESS who is the vendor."
As I understand it Higgins, you have been hunting
coyotes for a very long time. I don't want to hurt your feelings but it has been long documented that animals, which includes coyotes, don't possess the ability to structure logic which in turn means that they have no ability to communicate in a logical structured manner. Don't you guys have a library out there?
Mr. Higgins also said:
"The biologists (Barret, Jaeger, and Mitchell) that conduct discriminate analysis of spectagraphs of recordings of lone howls have determined that information is transmitted through high and low frequencies and their location within the fundamental harmonic. Amplitude, frequency, and emotional content change the meaning as well. As complex as the "language" is I cannot know what any but a very few lone howls mean and seriously doubt that any marketer can either. None of the biologists can."
I guess you friend Mr. Jaeger doesn't like you
very much because he never posts here. Or
maybe he is just to busy downloading the GPS
tracking data and plotting the info. By the way, the tracking data is automatically intergrated with a map grid. So all you have to do is download the data and print it out which takes about 10 minutes. Maybe he doesn't have a printer.
Higgins, don't you ever get tired of copying and
pasting other peoples scientific data? The biologist's or your description of frequency
components as it relates to coyote vocalizations is absolutely rubbish. After 17 years of so called "research" they have learned nothing except how to write better grant papers to suck more money out of us. The only thing that a coyote vocalization represents is a level of aggressiveness. Some are less agressive and some are more aggresive. Enough free info for the mentally impaired. I also find it amusing that you would lower yourself to kiss the bottom of a government "biologist" just you you could pay your own way to some distant location just to demonstrate your ability with a $10 party favor. You don't actually believe that you can emulate a real coyote vocalization with a 50 cent plastic reed, do you? If you think you can Rich, knowing that animal vocalizations are at least 30 times more complex then the human voice, let me hear you blow the human word "the" out of your mouth call. Rich, I know a lot of people and I just want you to know that I know what a complete failure your trip was. Maybe you will get lucky the next time. This also might be of interest to you. I have an open invitation to the Logan, UT research facility. But you know what Rich? I never will go because there is nothing that I can learn there although they would like to pick my brain. Also I don't record caged coyotes.
Just one more issue Rich. I heard you drove all
the way to PA to call and video an eastern coyote. I also heard that the fellow you went to see was Tom Bechtel. You know good old Tom. The
biggest liar in the East. He told me once that he
called about 300 eastern coyotes a year and 150
red fox. He then told me that he also gives 100
seminars a year with each seminar taking up about 3 days of his time. You do the math. After I
informed good old Tom to whom he was speaking
with, the subject changed to, "well I have to say
these things because I work for GS and we have
to sell callers". He then asked me for a job
because he said GS was going out of business.
What a man that Tom is. And just think Rich, you
drove all the way to PA to hunt coyotes with him. I guess you don't know how to do your homework
correctly Rich. But if I remember Rich, you said
that Tom killed an eastern coyote with his car.
WOW. Next time you want to try an call an eastern coyote Rich give me a call. I will help you
out. Lastly, there is a reason that the government creates those "give a dummy a job" programs in the West and not in the East. They are less visible there.
One more issue Rich. You possess neither the
experience or skill to evaluate any coyote dvd. In fact I don't think you are qualified to review a Three Stooges short. Rich, we film coyote videos in the North and the East. In fact we are the only company in this business that has the expertise to call and film coyotes in the North and East. Where do you video yours?
I forgot to mention Mr Cronk. Mr. Cronk called me
one day and asked me to give him a tutorial on
coyote vocalizations. Low and behold, the next
day Mr. Cronk was posting his expertise on coyote vocalizations on various hunting boards.
Can you imagine, he didn't even acknowledge where he got that info from. Just can't trust these
internet coyote experts.
Bill Martz.
I got a name and you know where to find me. I don't hide under rocks.
[ October 14, 2005, 03:59 AM: Message edited by: Bill Martz ]
Posted by Jrbhunter (Member # 459) on October 14, 2005, 05:28 AM:
Let me clarify my stance here.
I didn't ask for a political attack on a company or a calling stratagy. I didn't ask for a lecture on how to spend my paycheck. I didn't ask for a coyote hunters psychiatric opinion of another coyote hunter. I wanted to hear what sounds some of you experienced callers thought would work from that list.
If I wanted to hear all that other BS I'd just take this thread to Predator Masters or something where internet experts are abundant and experience is equivelant to the # of post next to your name. If anyone, and I mean anyone, has an opinion on which 10 sounds would suit me best for calling coyotes in the Midwest I'd appreciate hearing them.
Tim, I'm not looking for a miracle secret that will lessen the need for time in the woods or research in the offseason. I'm looking for the best 10 sounds from the list posted above so I can order the calling unit of my choice. I've been lucky enought to call 8 coyotes and 2 gray fox in the last two weeks with a Ridgeviewer hand call... if there's one "secret" I've found thus far it's that a good custom call can improve a guys actual CALLING ability emmensley.
Rich I have no problem with you and never have. The only other time we have had a conflict was very similar to this... I asked a simple question and you got derailed on some sort of personal agenda or comical attack tangent. Please don't read more into a thread than there is... I'm not trying to be complex here... lord knows there are all sorts of opinions about callers, sounds, businesses and EAST vs. WEST!!!
As for any arrogance you may pull from my post, I just think it's a little sad when a guy begins to regret posting a predator calling question on a predator calling website.
Posted by Tim Behle (Member # 209) on October 14, 2005, 05:55 AM:
OK, Let me see if I can't stick to the subject at hand.
Of the sounds you listed, I would choose :
Maybe 1 and 21. It's always nice to have some sort of distressed coyote sound available.
I believe that coyote vocalizations are way over rated for their ability to call coyotes.
I think in the fall of the year, you can actually do more harm than good by howling.
If I was going to pick sounds for a new caller, I'd load up on rabbit, bird and maybe a few cat sounds. But would limit myself to only one coyote vocalization and one deer bleat.
Look at the location where you are hunting in. That coyote is only going to get laid once a year, right at the end of your season. But he is going to want to eat nearly every day. Use sounds that are going to appeal to him on a daily basis.
Posted by keekee (Member # 465) on October 14, 2005, 05:55 AM:
Mr Martz,
I would like to ask you a few questions if I may.
First, if you have an Eastern video or footage then were is it???? These guys here in the East have been screaming for it! So, were is it? You said it not me! Now back it up! I will film you here in the East when ever your ready. You set the time and date and we will get this all worked out.
And if you can help me call more Eastern coyotes then here is your chance! Lets see it! Im in Ohio and welcome you to come make me a better coyote caller. So, when will you be here? Or when can I expect to get all this help?
JRB,
"If I wanted to hear all that other BS I'd just take this thread to Predator Masters or something where internet experts are abundant and experience is equivelant to the # of post next to your name"
Thanks! I will remember that! Take your shots when you can get them I gess, eh?
Brent
[ October 14, 2005, 05:59 AM: Message edited by: keekee ]
Posted by Rich (Member # 112) on October 14, 2005, 06:27 AM:
Bill Martz,
I guess that I should have recorded that phone call that I made to you. I did not ask you for a tutorial on coyote vocalization, nor did you give me one. I guess you are even a bigger lier than old Bitchdel huh? I called you to say that your DVD was a good one. Your ballooned up ego would not allow you to listen to anything I had to say. You were too busy filling my ears with your opinions. You taught me nothing at all about coyote vocalizations Bill. I have told many people on these boards that the WT caller was the best caller available, and I have also told them that I agree with your opinion that coyote vocalizations are nothing more than different levels of aggression. The coyotes have taught me a lot about their language, or rather the lack of it. Real hunters like Murry Burnham, Monte Dodson,
Scott Huber, and Cal Taylor have forgotten more about coyotes than you will ever begin to learn. I have no need to prove anything to anyone, and I certainly have no need to lie to anyone about where I learned how to call coyotes. You Bill, are a legend in your own mind. I guess that you are happy there. I had a little bit of respect for you before you told your lies about me in this thread. Go waller around in your own bed of lies Bill, I mean you made your bed so go sleep in it pardner.
Posted by Jrbhunter (Member # 459) on October 14, 2005, 06:35 AM:
Thanks for the reply Tim, I have 24 sounds to pick out... 17 I've locked down are all distress or ambient sounds. I have a couple more distress sounds that I am fond of and am waiting to see how many coyote vocalizations I really want before adding them to the list. I may get 3 coyote vocalizations, may get 7, or anywhere in between... that's kind of what I'm hoping to pin down with the opinions here by seeing which ones are consistantly productive for other guys.
Brent, I don't know what you mean by your post. I wasn't taking shots at you, why would I do that and why would you think it? Why would you remember my statement? I'm clueless... if you're ticked about PM getting slammed perhaps you should look through the threads and see how often HM get's slammed over there. Do you own PM? Do they pay you? Why so much concern?
P.S. You may want to tone down your rants on Bill though... I've got his video and yes it's filmed in the east and northeast. You can get a copy from his website just like I did. No cactus were harmed in the making of that 3 hour DVD.
Posted by Rich Higgins (Member # 3) on October 14, 2005, 06:54 AM:
Hi Bill, always good to have you drop by. I would like to take this opportunity to ask you if you would allow me to interview you on video?
Now that you are here perhaps you would address the specific questions in my post regarding the differences between all the various lone howls that you sell for your caller? Please? I'm always interested in the opinions of a non-caller who believes that coyotes fight for a living.
BTW, I flew to Pa.
Tim, good info, good reasoning.
KeeKee, Bill did produce a video about the Eastern coyote, "A Coyote Tutorial". It's well done production.
Jr, you need very few coyote vocalizations. To attract the most coyotes you should avoid the aggressive sounds.
My first choice would be #20.
Followed by
#21 (probably more volume}
#2 (probably the least aggressive of the listed howls)
#5 (when you need to stop a coyote or rivet their attention, this will do it)
#8 & 9 will be useful only under specific conditions but would be very good to have then.
If you have a large number of sounds to download pick at random since they are all curiosity draws to resident coyotes and experiment with them. Some may work better for you at different seasons than others.
Good luck
End of clutter.
Posted by Greenside (Member # 10) on October 14, 2005, 07:18 AM:
Jason
May I suggest that you give Steve an e-mail and get his opinion? He's familiar with IN. More than likely he'll help you out, but you might have to take an oath of secrecy.
Dennis
Posted by TheHuntedOne (Member # 623) on October 14, 2005, 07:45 AM:
quote:
If I wanted to hear all that other BS I'd just take this thread to Predator Masters or something where internet experts are abundant and experience is equivelant to the # of post next to your name
I guess I wonder why a guy who started and runs his own Predator Hunting board would come here and ask these questions instead of on his own board.
Al
Posted by Jrbhunter (Member # 459) on October 14, 2005, 08:05 AM:
Thanks for the info Rich, I may lean more toward those distress sounds after all. One of the things I like about the sound library is how unique some of the offerings are... nice to have something on a remote that Billy Bob hasn't played on his JS612 every night for the past week.
THO, I posted my question here for the opinions of folks like Rich Higgins, Tim Behle, Leonard and others who do not visit my board but are respected and seasoned veterans in the art of calling coyotes. And yes, it is on my site as well where other great guys like Rich, Dennis and Steve have already given me their opinions.
And yes Dennis, Steve's were in private! LOL!
[ October 14, 2005, 08:08 AM: Message edited by: Jrbhunter ]
Posted by TheHuntedOne (Member # 623) on October 14, 2005, 08:35 AM:
Thanks for the update JRB, I did see the post and the three replies you got on your site. I was just wondering if there was some corelation between the way you felt about Pm and your site since you posted the question here.
Thanks for clearing that up.
Good hunting
AL
THO Game Calls
Posted by Jrbhunter (Member # 459) on October 14, 2005, 08:41 AM:
Care to comment on the subject at hand THO?
Posted by TheHuntedOne (Member # 623) on October 14, 2005, 08:52 AM:
No JRB, I am here to learn. I have to admit that I do not do much howing for coyotes. I like to use my distress calls, and have good luck with them. However, it is a fascinating subject. One is never too old to learn new things. That is the best part about maturity, it helps one become able to weed out the BS from the from the substance. The thread has been informative, the crack about PM however, was childish. It just led me to wonder if you felt the same way about the people who visit your site, the ones with all the post numbers next to their names.
Al
THO Game Calls
Posted by Jrbhunter (Member # 459) on October 14, 2005, 09:18 AM:
Yeah I know what you mean about the BS and learning, I started this thread to learn about coyote vocalizations and ended up with three segments of your BS.
Doe$ anyone el$e $ee a pattern of folk$ up$et with my comment about PM?
Posted by Sue and Mark Nami (Member # 685) on October 14, 2005, 11:04 AM:
I have a friend who got a WT caller and I was kind of excited about calling with it. He even loaned me the video to watch.
We called hard for 2 days straight and never saw anything. About the only thing I can say is that it appears to be the most effective hair and bug repellant made.
I will admit in all fairness that we did not have any frozen deer carcass in order to attract the coyotes. Nor did we have a cameraman filming butterflies so we could shoot coyotes off camera.
Sure wanted to go out and spend 2 nickels on a WT after that.
BTW. Two days after the WT Safari, I went out to one of the very places we called earlier and called one in with a cheap party favor and shot it too.
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on October 14, 2005, 12:40 PM:
Okay, first of all, I'm the only moderator on HM and I don't need any help keeping things on track. My policy is to allow a thread to evolve wherever it goes, and I am just as guilty as anyone.
Second, for some reason BM has always felt that I'm hostile to him and his company, possibly because he continues to make rude and largely inaccurate remarks. I am only half kidding when I wonder if he has suffered a stroke, or fell and hit his head, because his comments directed at me were extremely disjointed, like he dropped his facts in a blender and spit them out randomly? If the things he said about other people were also (only) loosely based on factual events, I must take a good portion of what he has to say with a grain of salt?
For the record; it was NINE coyotes single file, Bill. Not eleven. I have owned and used a howler for over twenty years, please don't try to tell me which end is up, when it comes to my personal experiences. <sheesh>
Also, just to be perfectly honest: I occasionally get in a snide remark directed at CG or PM and if somebody views that as childish, then that's what I am with no apologies. I have good reason for my attitude, and I can only assume that if someone else makes a remark, they also have a reason, even if it is only important to them. I don't edit, and only have two people on my ban list that succeeded in testing my patience. Most all comments are welcome here, but I take a dim view of personal attacks.
Goof hunting. LB
Posted by Rich Higgins (Member # 3) on October 14, 2005, 12:42 PM:
Bill, you're not finished, are you?
There are so many questions. First question. Where should I list the latest "Bill's Absurdity" within the "Bill Martz Brain Fartz" hall of fame?
"The only thing a coyote vocalization represents is a level of aggressiveness. Some are more aggressive and some are less aggressive."
I was thinking of sandwiching it between
"A coyote fights for living" and
"Without territory, a coyote will die."
It doesn't quite rise to the level of
"A coyote spins it's tail when it dies because it believes it is being attacked by something stronger and it is submitting to it."
but all told it was a worthy effort and I give it two fingers up.
Posted by InjunJoe (Member # 658) on October 14, 2005, 01:25 PM:
Higgins, is the two fingers up one from each hand? I'd sure like to try one of his callers out here on the *********** but Yolanda would slip a disc if she found out I spent that much on a coyote. The car we drive cost only a hundred more than the WT. Anyway, I started doing some calling and it is sure picking up. It's cooling off now at night and things couldn't get much better.
One thing I'd like to know is if a fellow used one of those calls 20 weekends a year, how many coyotes could he expect to call in?
Posted by Baldknobber (Member # 514) on October 14, 2005, 01:37 PM:
Could it be that JRBHunter posted here even though he has started his own website, because the caliber of people who post here are...at least to him, well respected as predator callers? I think that could be interpreted as a c
ompliment to our posting board.
I always try to look at the glass as half full.
[ October 14, 2005, 01:39 PM: Message edited by: Baldknobber ]
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on October 14, 2005, 01:46 PM:
I own this site but I don't think that means that I can't participate on other boards, and I assume that jrb feels welcome to post his thoughts and opinions. Fine by me, because he is welcome here.....it's Higgins that hates him butting in. (just kidding)
Good hunting. LB
[ October 14, 2005, 01:48 PM: Message edited by: Leonard ]
Posted by keekee (Member # 465) on October 14, 2005, 02:26 PM:
Bill did produce a video about the Eastern coyote, "A Coyote Tutorial". It's well done production.
I gess I must of been in the dark on the video? I will get a copy and check it out for sure! Dont know how I missed that one?
JRB,
I will take this to E-mail, im not going to do this on a open fourm. You have mail!
Brent
[ October 14, 2005, 02:40 PM: Message edited by: keekee ]
Posted by Rich Higgins (Member # 3) on October 14, 2005, 02:44 PM:
Leonard, I don't mind Jr "butting" in at all, I kinda like having him around. He can be an anal twit but what the hey, he probably earned it.
Posted by Krustyklimber (Member # 72) on October 14, 2005, 02:51 PM:
Wow, what a ride...
JRB,
Dude, you come off a little hostile in all this, you could tone it down a notch yourself.
I have to agree with Mr Higgins to a small degree... IF I hadda choose from that list I'd be lost (just like you). I mean how the heck am I supposed to know what any of those sounds are? They just have ambigous, cool sounding names... like Tim said, getting some, and seeing how they work, FOR YOURSELF, is the best way to figure this out.
No, I do not $ee the pattern you $peak of, at all.
Mr Bill,
I am always with you, man, at the beginning... but then you seem to fumble, just short of the goal line.
I am SURE glad you don't know me, did you tell on your brothers and sisters a lot too?
I offered to let you give me a copy of your video, to prove it can make even anyone an expert, but you declined.
THAT says it ALL to me.
Tim,
"Use sounds that are going to appeal to him on a daily basis."
Another "golden nugget of wisdom".
I can always count on you, for the "nutshell" view. Thanks.
Keekee,
You did seem a little too defensive of the PM crack, after all JRB did have somewhat of a point, and it was funny to me (he coulda said the same joke about a half dozen other boards, they ALL have a little drama, don't they?).
THO,
Ditto, to what you said.
Mark,
There's no more way for you to PROVE the WT was the problem, anymore than Mr Bill can PROVE it's the solution.
"Only the yippers know, and they ain't sayin'"
Leonard,,
I can count a few more guys that you've banned, from all the various HM sites I have been part of, but maybe some of them are just on a time out. ![[Razz]](tongue.gif)
(*a couple of "my pals" got banned in one night, one for his first and only post on this board)
"I don't edit"
Bull. Edit by deletion counts, if you ask me, but you didn't.
I will say I don't know that that (deletion) has ever happened to anyone's posts, except mine (and I may have deserved it), so you are mostly right.
You do let a thread take it's own course, and many times we find information and ideas we never otherwise might have.
Joe,
"...if a fellow used one of those calls 20 weekends a year, how many coyotes could he expect to call in?"
My answer is, "I don't expect ANY"
Baldnobber,
I agree, half full. (*That's how and why I was able to agree with Mr Higgins' first post in this thread)
Krusty 
[ October 14, 2005, 02:56 PM: Message edited by: Krustyklimber ]
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on October 14, 2005, 03:58 PM:
Hmmm? Perhaps I should not say I never, ever have edited a post? But, it is not often, if we are talking about censorship.
In point of fact, there are only two names on the list. Again, to be 100% accurate, (you little twit) I have (temporarily) banned a few people, and removed the block; sometimes, the following day.
And, since this is the third version of Huntmasters, I don't remember that far back, so I could have missed a few? But, that will happen on any message board, here it is much less frequent than other places.
Good hunting. LB
Posted by InjunJoe (Member # 658) on October 14, 2005, 04:19 PM:
Krusty,
He only censors *******
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on October 14, 2005, 04:35 PM:
Watch it, Joe.
Or, I'll disclose to Yolanda that you favor stout, flat nose Navajo women, when you have had a few...
and they have had a few; passed out, and fallen on their face.
Good hunting. LB
(hey, who wouldn't, eh?)
Posted by Andy L (Member # 642) on October 14, 2005, 04:50 PM:
I love it when a big brew haha breaks out and Im not involved.
Makes me feel closer to normal......
![[Cool]](cool.gif)
Andy
Posted by Jrbhunter (Member # 459) on October 14, 2005, 04:56 PM:
Thanks for the commantary Krusty, that's just what this thread needed. I'm not at all trying to be harsh... I'm just an A-hole by nature and try to stick to talking about coyotes in an unbiased and open minded way with experienced guys that SPEND TIME IN THE WOODS like me. It appears some guys can't stick to talking coyotes. Why? I'm sure everyone has their theories... I have mine.
Leonard could you post up a new general terms of service that will keep me from walking into one of these traps again? Perhaps it should read "There will be no pornography, talk of coyote vocalizations or personal threats made on the board" then we'd know how to behave! LOL!
(The above post was made in good fun, with the intentions of making some people laugh but I understand it will inevitably piss off others and I can live with that.)
Posted by Tim Behle (Member # 209) on October 14, 2005, 05:37 PM:
Jason,
I read your question on your board, just didn't post a reply there. If you think I get distracted here, then you don't want Doyle and I on the same thread. We'd turn every discussion into something to do with Mushrooms, Ginseng, Arrowheads or big hooters.
Hey Joe,
Do you really like those Navajo women? If you spent that much on a car, I bet you have the nicest one on the *********** . How about we go kill a few when this wind stops?
Posted by Krustyklimber (Member # 72) on October 14, 2005, 06:04 PM:
Leonard,
I apologize, I didn't mean to piss you off, just to clarify things a bit.
Never is a strong word.
I guess I didn't realize "banned" wasn't forever, for anyone but myself and one other guy (I didn't ask my pals (or the others I remember) if they've tried again, to access their memberships here).
Little twit... like I needed that.
I guess I AM a twit, but I'm not wrong about what I said.
And you guys wonder why people just lurk. ![[Confused]](confused.gif)
Joe,
I thought there were a lot of *s for a place without ANY censorship.
I never claimed the little censorship, or editting, that IS done here was a bad thing.
Andy,
You want some of this? ![[Mad]](mad.gif)
No, just kiddin'.
I was thinking the same thing, until I couldn't help myself, and had to add my two cents.
JRB,
You're welcome, I guess?
You may not mean to come off harsh, just like I usually don't, but you did, and you are.
I'm not the only one to notice it.
Why wouldn't this thread need my commentary? My thoughts on this are every bit as valid as anyone else's, and this is an open board?
Why don't I speak on coyotes and howling? Same reason THO didn't, but that seemed okay for him to say.
Maybe you should put a disclaimer in your original post... "I only wanna hear from pampass know it alls, newbs not welcome".
And you guys wonder why people just lurk?
I didn't start this shit-pot... but I did take a turn at the stir stick, somebody's got to, or it'll burn.
Have you EVER seen a thread discussing the WT (on this site) not go sideways? (that's what took this to the crapper, not coyote vocalizations)
Krusty
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on October 14, 2005, 06:21 PM:
Jr, all kidding aside. The problem here is that labeling a sound as:
#14. Coyote adult dominant male rally howl
This doesn't begin to shed light on what it "sounds" like. Some of these descriptions, frankly, I don't recognize, and maybe others are having the same problem? Until we are speaking the same language, I can only guess what is meant by the LABEL?
The other thing is; look at the above #14, just as a for instance. How did "someone" decide to describe this specific sound in this way? We already have some opinion that states that the coyotes themselves don't have an exact meaning when they issue a certain howl; it's like chinese, it depends on "how" you say it, and the mood they are in, happy, sad or "agressive".
This is reading TEA LEAVES, as far as some people are concerned. Now, if we had a wav file to put with each description, then we could pick from your list a little more intelligently, even if we still could not agree on what to call that sound?
Do you see what I'm getting at, here?
Good hunting. LB
Posted by Az-Hunter (Member # 17) on October 14, 2005, 07:15 PM:
Whew......riveting reading to say the least:)
Im with Tim, I seldom hunt coyotes in late spring or summer, so howling really doesn't enter into my calling situations. I will say, that out of that extensive list, I would bet a C note, that any kind of injured coyote or KI-YI would turn more coyotes for you than any of the others?
I do use the hurt pup or injured adult vocalization with reasonable success, after hitting one of a pair or multiple, but I don't use vocalizations to the extent a guy like Rich does, so Im not able to give any expert opinion.
Posted by Jrbhunter (Member # 459) on October 14, 2005, 07:55 PM:
Yeah I see what you are saying Leonard and that is kinda sorta what I was having problems with. I know that puppy whines work like a charm at different times of the year but I was wondering if anyone knew the advantages of an 8 week pup cry versus a 4 week pup whine.
Howls are the same way, but I don't pretend to be well versed enough to hit the same young adult, semi-agitated, locational mating howl day after day. If there were sound clips to go along with each title perhaps I would have an opinion on which ones would work and which ones I could live without on my unit. Clarification like that is what I was looking for if I couldn't get opinions on the titles as they were listed.
Tim, I found my first puff-ball mushroom today... couldn't have done it without Doyle's tutoring. I considered taking a trophy photo with it just for him but decided against belittling myself to boasting about half rotten fungi.
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on October 14, 2005, 08:49 PM:
two words: morels = $
Vic, everybody knows you don't need coyote vocalizations down there in coyote paradise McNeal.
Good hunting. LB
Posted by Rich Higgins (Member # 3) on October 14, 2005, 10:29 PM:
Vic, threat-bark howls work well in the spring and summer, I assume that is what you are referring to. However other howls work on all ranks of coyotes at all times of year. Case in point. Last Sat., third stand of the morning, three of us set up in a line, 30 yards apart, facing a thick line of mesquite and palo verde. Visibilty was about 50 yards. Tyler was using high pithed pup distress, he calls constantly like an e-caller. Ten minutes in I blew a lost puppy howl and joined in with the pup distress, A coyote just inside the brush line began barking. Tyler and I boosted the volume and emotion and the coyote came bouncing in. You know the kind of gait, front legs straight, hackles up, a forward bounce with every bark. It stopped 30 yards out and the other fellow with us shot it. We would have kept it coming as long as it was willing. Interestingly, it was a yoy, a juvenile male. I don't know what was on his mind, what he thought was going on, but the two different sounds he had been hearing for ten minutes were presented in a way that certainly didn't intimidate him. That is the proper way to use coyote vocalizations. Unless targeting a resident pair, it is more productive to use those vocalizations that will attract all coyotes within hearing, even transient dispersing pups, without intimidating them. High pitched puppy distress and high pitched long howls that taper off are the best attractants.
Jr, paying attention?
Posted by Locohead (Member # 15) on October 14, 2005, 11:47 PM:
EEEEEEEEEE...I reeeeelly like thees conversation. I don't gots too many things to say butz I reeeely like theees coyote talking theengs way too many times. Jew know what I mean?
Posted by Randy Buker (Member # 134) on October 15, 2005, 04:14 AM:
jrb,
"If I wanted to hear all that other BS I'd just take this thread to Predator Masters"
No you won't. Please keep in mind that you are not welcome there anymore.
Brent,
Please don't waste your money on Bill's video. Buy Jay's or Cal's or even mine! Bill's is laughable.
Randy
Posted by Rich Higgins (Member # 3) on October 15, 2005, 07:46 AM:
Randy, I'm going to send Brent my copy to satisfy his curiosity.
I'm a little confused about your statement that Jr. is no longer welcome at PM. Did you mean he is not welcome by you, or that he is banned from the board?
Posted by Randy Buker (Member # 134) on October 15, 2005, 08:36 AM:
I watched a borrowed copy myself. I refused to give BM a single dollar of mine. It was good entertainment. I sat there amazed. Frequently saying "you've got to be kidding me."
Rich,
I sent you an email.
Posted by Rich Higgins (Member # 3) on October 15, 2005, 08:47 AM:
Randy, it is entertaining to an experienced caller. It is surely a confusing misrepresentation of coyote ecology to the novice.
"A Coyote Tutorial" is a very well produced 90 minute commercial for the WT caller and more than a little careless with the facts.
Tyler and I had a little fun with it on our video.
Posted by Rich (Member # 112) on October 15, 2005, 04:23 PM:
Rich Higgins,
A couple of my grandchildren had a lot of fun with mine today. They had lost their bouncy ball so I gave em that DVD and told em it was a neat frizbee.
Posted by Cdog911 (Member # 7) on October 15, 2005, 06:35 PM:
Hey Cronk, That would be neat to see. Love to watch kids having a great time. As far as watching it goes, I'm not much for fiction these days. Or, would it be categorized as "fantasy". Maybe I'll catch the sequel, even if they never do live up to the original.
Posted by keekee (Member # 465) on October 15, 2005, 06:35 PM:
So, I take it that there are no Eastern coyotes shot in this Video?
Rich H,
I will be looking for it in the mail! I will make sure I let you know what I think. Also, your package is in the mail! Let me know when you get it.
Brent
[ October 15, 2005, 06:37 PM: Message edited by: keekee ]
Posted by 2dogs (Member # 649) on October 15, 2005, 07:16 PM:
WOW!.....
----------------
JRB, I don't speak coyote. But I use high pitched, yips/howls. Followed by [irregularly-irregular], rabbit distress squals. As well as a little bit of fawn bleat.
eg; Mammal Heart rythm patterns, there are; regular, irregular-regular, [irregularly-irregular].
--------------
One statement that caught my eye..." coyotes don't structure logic"
Perhaps, That could be explained further. Nature vs Nurture under varying conditions. Is what comes to my mind. Logic, would be the ability to learn, make decisions good/bad, right/wrong based on incoming data.
Perhaps, I have came upon an area in this country. Where the [local]coyotes are unable to "sense" what's going down. Then respond, accordinly in a synaptic[fight/flight]overload. I must be dreaming For some [reason] they know, I'm trying to kill them .
Posted by Cdog911 (Member # 7) on October 15, 2005, 08:58 PM:
Everett,
Could we just coin a new term for us pampass know it alls and refer to your irregularly irregular bunny squeals as "afibular distress vocalizations"? LOL (Inside joke)
Posted by 2dogs (Member # 649) on October 15, 2005, 09:04 PM:
LOL! Lance.
Hmmm, not a pamp, nor a "know it all". But have been an ass many times [must be my real calling]. Hmmm, more I think about it. I don't fit in, to many places
Posted by Nahuatl (Member # 708) on October 18, 2005, 04:42 PM:
Varmint calling and hunting are great fun. However, one of the biggest downers in the entire industry is Bill Martz, a real turd in the punchbowl. The WT video is garbage.... described elsewhere as "Eastern coyote hunting bloopers and other things that make absolutely no sense".... full of red hot tips like,"Don't move when the coyote is looking at you." "Coyotes don't have supermarkets." "Most coyote hunters are brain-dead." "Coyotes can't multi-task." Like Duh, for an intelligent man, Bill Martz is the brain-deadest, blow-hardest, dumtastic ditz ever. He may build a decent caller, but he is a miserable person with whom to speak or deal. He is mentally ill. Listening to him makes me puke. And one of these days the FCC will get wise to his remote control shenanigans.
The best part of the video is the cricket chirp.
Friends do not let friends buy a WT caller.
Bill, NOBODY LIKES YOU.
Posted by Rich Higgins (Member # 3) on October 18, 2005, 06:27 PM:
So Nahuatl, what was your favorite "Bill Martz Brain Fartz" on the video?
Varmit Hunter watched it recently and especially liked
"My shooter just shot a coyote that he could not see!"
Posted by Bill Martz (Member # 378) on October 18, 2005, 10:31 PM:
Nahuatl or is it Gary Clevenger of Acton, CA? Are you ashamed of your name?
Why didn't you tell the boys why you are so angry?Well I guess I will have to explain why you are so mad. You see Mr. Clevenger bought a wildlife caller from us about 1 year ago along with a coyote video. He raved how well the caller performed and that the video was great. For the past year he was very happy with the caller and the video. This September he purchased his second caller from us along with a whole lot of sounds. About 3 weeks later he gave us a call. He was angry that he couldn't copy our sounds from the new caller to use as he saw fit. By the way Gary, I know for a fact that you gave our sounds to other people to use which is a violation of the copyright laws. I have many many friends unlike you. At any rate, because he couldn't pirate any of the sounds in the new caller he purchased, he thought he should get a refund from us. Isn't that laughable? Gary, you are typical of the low life that gives all hunters a bad rap. Why do you have to come here to complain when you're the one who did the wrong? Don't you have a mommy? You will be hearing from someone shortly.
Bill Martz
I don't live under a rock like you Gary.
Posted by Steve Craig (Member # 12) on October 19, 2005, 09:36 AM:
Nahuatl or whatever your name is,
I consider Bill a friend, and a very good friend at that.So dont make bold statements that are not true.I have been with him in the field and unlike many others here, I know that there is more to this man than ANYONE here knows.
Question?
How does a guy sell 30+ callers a month after month, consistantly, and do ZERO advertizing? Why is it a rareity when a WT shows up for sale and why is it that it is gone in hours when one does show up?
Somebody must like the units?
One thing is for sure he certainly gives Leonards board alot of visits when he shows up here!
I'm off to the hunts again and will not be returning for a while. Two more lions called in last week, both were juvies. Both with the WT. Rain killing me here the last couple days.
Gotta run.
Steve
Posted by Nahuatl (Member # 708) on October 19, 2005, 01:33 PM:
After many years of hunting in California, Arizona, and Nevada, I use the tools that work and change or discard those that don't. It is my personal observation after a season of experimentation that Johnny Stewart distresses, here in the western states, continue to attract more predators than any of Bill Martz’s expensive eastern coyote yodels, regardless of the blather above. I think a vast majority of experienced hunters would agree that the Johnny Stewart distresses have a proven record of success, and that Bill Martz’s theories on coyote communication are the rankest speculation. The real reason that Bill Martz has his panties in a twist is that I play Johnny Stewart distresses on an older model WT wave player, and Bill can’t stand it. Using Johnny Stewart distress sounds instead of Bill’s dog squalls not only TRIPLES your productivity in the field, it saves hundred$ of dollar$. It’s as simple as that. I thoroughly offend Bill’s sense of greed. We disagree on calling methods and we disagree about hunting. To me it's a source of fun and adventure, and to him, hunters are a source of income. The rest of Bill’s diatribe, as usual, is total paranoid NONSENSE. He’s become an expert at nonsense. Watch his video. Read his posts. His broadside early on would try to convince you he is the last best hope to preserve intelligence on earth ROFLMAO. Yes Bill, we have libraries on the west coast and use them regularly. Then he spews some warped version of the truth spun to suit him, a demented paranoid hallucination where sound pirates plunder and pillage his copyrighted possessions for disribution to the unwashed masses without proper homage being paid to fearless leader. It's no different than changing a cd in the boombox. That’s all there is to it. He thinks he’s Bill Gates facing some Napster-like conspiracy. Bill is a pompous megalomaniac, a liar, and a fool. I've grown weary of the way he runs everyone over, never listening, smearing his competition, and even beating up on Leonard in his own home, ad. nauseum. He has absolutely no class.
On two separate occasions, I have endured Bill's personal insults of Gerald Stewart. Bill apparently makes a regular habit of running other people down at every opportunity. His comments were demeaning and unfounded. Bill called Gerald “stupid” on multiple occasions in a variety of ways. Personally, I think Gerald Stewart is great guy, a truly nice man, who engenders customer loyalty. Bill Martz could learn a lot from him. Bill is apparently jealous of Gerald’s popularity. I found Bill Martz’s comments and his insults, then and now, to be offensive.
I also suspect that Bill Martz is thoroughly chafed by the success and acceptance of the new FoxPro III. The FoxPro costs approximately $1000 less than a similarly equipped WT caller, and unlike WT, plays ALL kinds of sounds with equal facility, including Gerald’s. FoxPro also has, unlike WT, responsive and courteous customer service, and you don’t have to endure Bill’s braggadocios or insults in order to do business with them. Bill requires some serious ass-kissing as a prerequisite for the purchase of one of his callers. We all know the type. It won't be long before he requires a signed and sworn loyalty oath. He voids the warranty and refuses to service his product for anyone who refuses to continue to suck up to him or dare have the audacity to question or speak out countrary to his faux intelligence. Could it be that this new competition, FoxPro's 36 sound caller, and Bill Martz’s rotten attitude have put his business in the tank? Look around. Bill has become quite a joke and a regular topic of conversation. His bizarre ideas and over-inflated sense of self-worth have become a constant source of humor in hunting circles and bulletin boards nationwide and he’s spending a lot of his time and energy defending himself on the Internet. On the contrary, it is blowhard slob hunters like Bill that continue to propagate a bad rap, and that's easily proven. One need only do a search at PM, CG, or here to find that Bill and his sycophants are either banned, deleted, or the subject of much ridicule, and that’s the truth.
Your mother uses a FoxPro.
((The first question and answer in the FAQ at the FoxPro website is an interesting read. It touches briefly on remote control use on FRS frequencies and is the result of much thought and investigation by FoxPro and their attorneys. It appears Bill Martz has much bigger fish to fry than his petty grievances with me. It also appears that they have complained to the FCC about his application and misuse of FRS frequencies and unfair competitive advantage. I read somewhere else the fine for misuse of those frequencies in a commercial application, if found appropriate, is $100K plus double the profits gleaned. Is that possible? Wow, that's a big fine. What a terrible cloud to have hanging over your head. Bill, being you must suck.))
[ October 20, 2005, 09:54 AM: Message edited by: Nahuatl ]
Posted by Jay Nistetter (Member # 140) on October 19, 2005, 03:36 PM:
Nahuatl
I pretty much think that everything you said would have been best left unsaid.
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on October 21, 2005, 11:39 AM:
It appears that Bill is correct, on at least one issue. The above poster, (member #708 Nahuatl)
has just reregistered as Gary Clevenger, with a different email address, but it's the same IP address. He may have used the screen name "beartrap" on the old board?
Welcome to the New Huntmasters, Gary.
Good hunting. LB
Posted by Nahuatl (Member # 708) on October 21, 2005, 10:17 PM:
Leonard, Thanks for the headsup. I read regularly, but haven't posted in a long, long time and could not find my old info. The bear doesn't leave his cave without a lot of provocation.
Oh Bill.... You'll be hearing from someone soon.
Friends don't let friends buy a WT caller.
[ October 21, 2005, 10:40 PM: Message edited by: Nahuatl ]
Posted by pup (Member # 90) on October 24, 2005, 12:27 PM:
What ever happened to "any old howl will do"?
later pup
UBB.classicTM
6.3.0