This is topic The New Huntmastersbbs!2:Next falls crop....your thoughts? in forum Predator forum at The New Huntmastersbbs!.
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Posted by Baldknobber (Member # 514) on May 07, 2006, 02:59 PM:
There are several older guys who hunt coyotes with hounds here in S. Missouri. I grew up around most of them but never picked up the sport myself. Awhile back a couple of them approached me. They were not too happy about me killing the coyotes where they run their dogs. They like to hunt in about a 8-10 square mile area that has several roads close together so they can drive around and cut off the coyotes. I hunt the same area with permission from all the landowners. I took 12 of my 19 coyotes this winter from this area. ALL of these 12 were mature coyotes....no juveniles. My thinking is this: we know that if the population is depressed that the coyotes' internal instinct is to have more pups. This fall after depressing the population in this area, won't their be a large crop of juvenile coyotes to replace the ones that were taken? Won't these juveniles be easier to call and hunt with hounds, benefitting the houndmen as wwll as myself? What do you guys think?
[ June 08, 2006, 11:10 PM: Message edited by: Leonard ]
Posted by Cdog911 (Member # 7) on May 07, 2006, 04:08 PM:
I think your friends need to learn that the coyotes belong to anyone that the landowner gives permission to. I live amongst greyhound hunters and, to their credit, they give me my room and I give them theirs. If they see my truck in an area, they often will move 4-5 miles further up the way and give me plenty of room to ply my trade.
As far as the impact of hunting on coyotes, it's pretty well documented that coyotes exhibit compensatory mechanisms both with respect to natality and mortality. As coyote densities decrease, females are first bred at an earlier age, more puppies are whelped, and more of those puppies will be female. As the pop'n increases, first breeding will come at 2 years old rather than one, litter size will decrease, and a higher proportion will be male.
At the pop'n level, I welcome hunting around my area, above and beyond my take. I usually end up entertaining a number of requests each season to help guys get started. For years, I gave them enough info to get a start, but purposely withheld a lot of the good stuff that would allow them to close the deal. Two seasons ago, I changed my approach and told guys that I would give them the help they needed to call the coyote as long as they did what needed to be done to kill it once it got there. I wanted no educated coyotes. It worked. Guys started killing more coyotes, and as has been the case throughout my lifetime, the more hunting there was, the more coyotes there seemed to be the next year. Didn't make much sense that the more you took, the more there was left, but it was true. Then I got to talking with Higgins about it.
Imagine a land area 10 square miles in size. For years, the same alpha dog has lived there and, over time, has amassed this much land. He has a pack consisting of, let's say, 10 coyotes, including himself, his bitch, 3 betas and five yearling pups. Along comes Baldknobber and whacks that top dog. Chaos reigns and those 10 square miles are all of a sudden up for grabs.
Each of the betas fights it out to see who will become the new top dog. One wins and the other two forge out on their own. Unable to defend the entire original territory, he reclaims, say, four, while the other six are equally divided into smaller territories for the other two. Now you have three territories where one previously existed. Each of those three territories produces five pups the following spring after the two displaced betas find mates, and now the population for the original land mass has gone from 10 coyotes to 3 packs of seven each, or 21.
Of course, this is a grossly oversimplified version of what really happens, and there are God only knows how many other variables, both intrinsic and extrinsic, that factor into the actual numbers, but it pretty much explains what I've seen over the years in my area (Kansas) and was the results of a study by someone I can't recall right now. Main point: Don't let my landowners know about it because they believe that the more I kill, the less remain. In truth, the more I kill, the more I kill. ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
I hunt like hell, shoot like crazy, and all the while, bank on job security.
Posted by Andy L (Member # 642) on May 07, 2006, 05:02 PM:
I think you need to tell your friends to piss up a rope and learn how to hunt some other way than from the damned road!!
Your coyote population will be just fine. I have killed 10-20, average around 16, from a series of farms that make up about a 2 square miles several years in a row, and there always has been a plenty. That doesnt include the ones the road hunters got....
Posted by Cdog911 (Member # 7) on May 07, 2006, 05:09 PM:
Hey Andy,
I prefer,
"Sit down and pour yourself a warm, steaming cup of kiss my white ass.", but that's just me.
Always gets a warm response.
Posted by The Outdoor Tripp (Member # 619) on May 07, 2006, 05:25 PM:
You guys are way too verbose.
I prefer the standard two-word reply.
Posted by Andy L (Member # 642) on May 07, 2006, 05:31 PM:
![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
Posted by Cdog911 (Member # 7) on May 07, 2006, 06:29 PM:
If nothing else, ol' Baldknobber should be damned proud that he single-handedly is able to do to the coyotes in Missouri what the government has been trying to do for generations - eliminate them. Do tell how you do that.
Posted by Cowboyvon (Member # 854) on May 08, 2006, 07:27 AM:
Hi guys I'm new here but have lurked for a while butI hunt coyotes with speeddogs but I do it a little different, a little more traditional, on horse back and calling. Anyway I'm in southern New Mexico and I don't see how we can have many at all next year if we don't get some rain. We have been in a drought for 7 or 8 years some of the country side is starting to look like the moon. Between the drought and them flying the plane it might be tough.
Posted by Andy L (Member # 642) on May 08, 2006, 07:35 AM:
Hey Cowboy! Welcome!
Yeah, your way of hound hunting is definitely different from what I see here. Your way is as challenging as it gets.
I dont know how your area holds up a population with the air gunners. Thats gotta be disheartening for folks that like to sport hunt coyotes.....
Glad to see ya.
Andy
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on May 08, 2006, 11:23 AM:
Welcome to the New Huntmasters, cowboyvon. Glad to have you on board. Seem's familiar, the name? Are you from Bruce's hound hunting board?
Anyway, I am familiar with your area, and I think you are doing it the only way possible, you can't drive a vehicle cross country like they can in farm land.
Good hunting. LB
Posted by Cowboyvon (Member # 854) on May 08, 2006, 04:18 PM:
Good to see you here Andy..
Thanks Leonard,
Yeah I was over at Bruces board and I still go over there just dosen't seem the same.
I guess more than anything else I'm a dog man and love to hunt with the dogs and calling and running coyotes with these dogs kinda goes together.
I team rope so I know most of the ranchers so I get permision to go just about where I want.. and with the plane costing $200.00 or more per hr most kinda like to see me come out.
Posted by Baldknobber (Member # 514) on May 08, 2006, 04:53 PM:
I would to try to explain what Lance said in his first post to the houndmen, but you just cant fight stupid. Hopefully this fall when the dispersal takes place the old guys will begin to see the light. The landowners are on my side because I actually kill the coyotes. The houndmen with the exception of two individuals all kill coyotes only if their dogs catch or bay them. They get tired of the hunters running them and not shooting them.
Posted by Cdog911 (Member # 7) on May 08, 2006, 05:17 PM:
Baldknobber,
I wouldn't say stupid, as much as selfish and subjective in their approach. If the landowners want them dead, then the dog runners just don't fill the bill. I'd just keep doing as you're doing and if they go to the property owners to throw a hissy fit, I'm sure the landowners themselves will set them straight. Mine sure aren't short for words with wannabes.
Posted by Andy L (Member # 642) on May 08, 2006, 05:42 PM:
Bald, I have a hard time with the dog runnin road hunters around here, if you cant tell. I would dare one to come tell me I shouldnt kill coyotes where they hunt. They are tresspassing more than not. They use the old MO law that they cant control where their dogs go to shelter them. The bastards will get permission to hunt 40 acres and drop their dogs there so they can hunt the world around them. ![[Mad]](mad.gif)
I didnt get to it this winter. If work will let me, they got a surprise coming. I have permission to hunt tons of land around there. And, I got access to a spotting scope that hooks to a video camera. I have talked with the game warden and he is looking forward to lots of footage of people pursuing animals up and down the road and shooting from the road. He cant slip up on them. They spot him and radio each other to watch their actions.
However, they wont see me way off catching them on tape. I cant wait to burn their asses. ![[Cool]](cool.gif)
Posted by JD (Member # 768) on May 08, 2006, 08:12 PM:
Hey Cowboy, how have ya been. One of these days there`s gonna be a knock at your door & it`s gonna be Andy & myself begging to go see those dogs in action. I sure do like that country of yours.
Andy, I thought you kissed & made up with those road hunters. ....bastards.
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on May 09, 2006, 12:11 AM:
Hey JD. Could you shoot me an email?
Posted by Andy L (Member # 642) on May 09, 2006, 04:20 AM:
JD, as long as we can go thru Quemado on the way... and on the way back, Im game. ![[Wink]](wink.gif)
Nope, aint made up with those inbred bastards and wont. Piss on em.
[ May 09, 2006, 04:22 AM: Message edited by: Andy L ]
Posted by Kokopelli (Member # 633) on May 09, 2006, 05:59 AM:
Andy, one word.......snares!!!
You wouldn't have to actually set any. Hell, you wouldn't even need to buy any. Just get permission from the owners to use them & let the 'coffee shop conversations' do the rest. Shouldn't take long for the dog guys to get real nervous & for you to be one hated s.o.b. Check six, often!!
It's a shame that outdoor groups can't seem to play well together. I once had a quail hunter who was trespassing complain to the game warden about my traps... that were set on private land with the blessing of the rancher.
Posted by Cowboyvon (Member # 854) on May 09, 2006, 06:37 AM:
Good to see you JD,
You guys are always welcome.. Quemado not much there but some pretty country.. must be a story in there somewhere
Out here the conditions aren't too good for running scent hounds on coyotes at least not like those guys do it back there.I have premission for most of the ranchs even though it is mostly public or BLM land and you don't really need it, if they see someone riding there horse through there cows with some dogs they get a little concerned about rustling.. its still done out here.
Andy,
Somthing else you could do is get some of the signs that they have to put up around here when they use the m-44s.. just the signs not the poison. I know when I see those I won't let any dogs out
Posted by JD (Member # 768) on May 09, 2006, 08:31 AM:
Quemado has the best damn Navajo taco I`ve ever had in my life, O.K., I guess it`s the only Navajo taco I`ve ever had....but it was some of the most incredible food, worth the trip anyway.
Bret, you could give chase with dogs fairly easy in the northern half of NE. & never be on a different ranch from where you started but down here you might have 4 different land owners in the same mile section.
I`d sure like the sort of hunting that you do but I`d need to drive 1 1/2 hrs to do it so I suppose I`d better not bring home any speed dogs....yet.
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on May 09, 2006, 09:49 AM:
Quemado? Wow, I thought that was my little secret? LB
Posted by Cowboyvon (Member # 854) on May 09, 2006, 09:53 AM:
JD,
Some of the best coyote dogs around come from the Nebraska Sand Hills.. I believe there are still a few up there that do it like I do..best running country around..
Posted by Az-Hunter (Member # 17) on May 09, 2006, 01:37 PM:
I'll say it again....the day of "secret places" is long gone my friend:)
Von; you runnin' your pony around that country shod, or barefoot?
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on May 09, 2006, 01:56 PM:
oh boy! Here we go again!
Posted by Cowboyvon (Member # 854) on May 09, 2006, 02:43 PM:
I think I've been involved in this one on another board before..
I put Iron on all my horses that I'm riding out. Granted if all I did was stay out in the flats or in the arena they probably wouldn't need it, but I like to go out and ride the hills and bust rock sometimes. I know there are some horses that might not need shoes but most do. I've heard it said about the wild horses and how good there feet are and I'm sure that’s somewhat true but we don't see the ones that get crippled and natural selection has had something to do with how tough there feet are.
The horses I ride I'm sure don't have near as tough of feet, but I know those wild ponies can't do what our horses do. They talk about this natural stuff but we ask our horses to do some pretty unnatural stuff over and over again.
Besides I use my horses for alot of things and I ride most everyday
[ May 09, 2006, 02:48 PM: Message edited by: Cowboyvon ]
Posted by JD (Member # 768) on May 09, 2006, 03:11 PM:
Bret, looks like you & your partner have that one under control, 2003 Red Rock, how did you end up?
Posted by Cowboyvon (Member # 854) on May 09, 2006, 03:16 PM:
We ended up 2nd.. it payed $2,800.00 per man so it was a good payday.. he got out good and stuck it on one and I closed my eyes got lucky and caught 2 feet ![[Eek!]](eek.gif)
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on May 09, 2006, 05:58 PM:
Nice cat, dude.
Posted by Az-Hunter (Member # 17) on May 09, 2006, 06:13 PM:
Now Leonard......It was a serious question, not a bait job. Ive seen many a photo of Von out in that rough NM ranch country, and was curious as to his foot care for his stock, simple as that.
As to the lion, looks like that little female was a long way from home? caught out in the big middle of that desert country? Gawd, I bet you were surprised to see what your dogs were tangling with!
Posted by Cdog911 (Member # 7) on May 09, 2006, 07:49 PM:
I was about to ask if the dogs took that one down or was it called. On a couple different occasions, I saw greyhounds dumped on a coyote that headed to cover only to have a poor, unwitting bobcat end up ass deep in the middle of things. You'd think they could do a better job of protecting themselves, but they don't have near the hang time of a coyote. The dogs usually have them fragged in less than ten seconds. Now, I realize a cougar would be something else entirely, and something I'd pay good money for a front row seat.
Posted by Andy L (Member # 642) on May 10, 2006, 05:23 AM:
My business partner and I found Quemado by accident about a year ago. We were passing thru about breakfast time and stopped at the busier of the two cafes to eat. It was fantastic.
So, when JD and I went thru, I insisted on stopping. Again, fantastic. We kinda talked about basing a vacation/hunt out of there. Stay at the motel across the street so we could eat there three meals a day....
Posted by Andy L (Member # 642) on May 10, 2006, 05:24 AM:
Oh, and Vic, bullshit, Im not in the mood, might as well put your pole up. ![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
Posted by Cowboyvon (Member # 854) on May 10, 2006, 06:52 AM:
I think she came to the call and the dogs winded her in the brush I rode up thinking it was a coyote and was pretty shocked I think the dogs didn't get hurt because they ran her aways on the ground and she she was small.. she did fight pretty good though. But they sure don't have the hang time of a coyote. I shot her with my pistol but she wasn't going to live anyway. If she had been in a tree I would have left her there and saved my tag.
I knew some were in that area, they pass through often there just hard to hunt cause its so dry. There is a pretty good deer population and I've seen some tracks before.
AZ hunter.. is that Vic from J-H and Vic fame ?
Ok I took the bait now your turn... whats your opinion... shod or barefoot..?
Posted by Andy L (Member # 642) on May 10, 2006, 07:42 AM:
The one and only Brett....
Posted by Az-Hunter (Member # 17) on May 10, 2006, 07:43 AM:
Well Von, when Im out hunting or working, I slip on my Justin lace up work boots; if Im just lounging around the place, moving water hoses, enjoying the day etc......I'll go barefoot.
Posted by Cowboyvon (Member # 854) on May 10, 2006, 07:51 AM:
now thats a good answer
but I prefer slip ons to lace ups ![[Razz]](tongue.gif)
Posted by Cowboyvon (Member # 854) on March 04, 2014, 10:28 AM:
lol... both trucks broke down and I'm down here in the flats .... blast from the past hope everyone is still killing coyotes .... so here you go I catch a lion down in these flats every 6 years or so and now I ride mules but I still put shoes on them ..
[IMG] 
[/IMG]
[ March 04, 2014, 10:55 AM: Message edited by: Cowboyvon ]
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on March 04, 2014, 03:37 PM:
Good looking dogs...well fed too!
Good hunting. El Bee
edit: I called in a lion in flats just like that, once. Quite a cluster fuck, didn't even get a shot!
[ March 04, 2014, 03:39 PM: Message edited by: Leonard ]
Posted by 3 Toes (Member # 1327) on March 04, 2014, 04:29 PM:
Good to see some new guys around.
But to the original post... It ain't so everywhere. I have lowered the coyote populations where I work to an all time low, maybe since 1080 days. Litters arent any bigger. And I actually check and know my litter numbers, in dozens of pairs every year. Killed by me, or the plane, or the chopper or whatever. There are less and less coyotes every year in a well run control program. Not more. More coyotes just means weekend warriors out calling. Not an actual control. Control means just that.
Posted by WhiteMtnCur (Member # 5) on March 05, 2014, 08:53 PM:
3 Toes, are you seeing any change in the age demographics of the breeding bitches in your district over the years?
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on March 06, 2014, 03:20 AM:
Look who dropped in? Trevor hasn't posted since 02-27-2005.
Good hunting. El Bee
Posted by 3 Toes (Member # 1327) on March 06, 2014, 05:50 AM:
The coyote population as a whole is younger. We rarely kill an "old" coyote. 2 and 3 year olds are the normal breeding pairs. Once in a while you will find an older pair that showed up from one of the few places (like coal mines) we can't go. The part some don't understand ismwhen you have access to almost everywhere in a county and very few coyotes you can't go after, you can lower numbers drastically. If there was a group of 10 (which would never happen here) and I trapped 4 or 5 of them in the fall, then the plane picked up 3 more in thhe winter, then I called and shot the remaining pair in the spring, there's none or maybe one left. And you do similar with all the territories bordering that and just keep expanding that, and the neighboring counties are doing similarly, all of the sudden there are very few coyotes. Not more.
Posted by booger (Member # 3602) on March 06, 2014, 11:03 AM:
Don’t know how it is in Lance’ territory, but about 90 miles west, it has taken me about 15 years to re-educate landowners what my definition of the term ‘coyote hunting’ is.
I don’t have anything against dog hunters, but they did more to screw up hunter/landowner relations than anything I have ever seen here in Central Kansas.
Most of the guys had rigged brush guards with cutters on them where they could take off through a ditch and head out through the fence to run the coyote. Some of them came back to fix the fence, some didn’t…therein lay the problem with the landowner. I can still drive around in my home territory and see fence splices here and there.
The CRP program cut a lot of that out since there is not SUPPOSED to be any vehicle traffic in those fields.
With that said, most of the old dog hunters are gone and I don’t think I have seen a dog wagon in the areas I hunt since the late 70’s.
I am not a shrinking violet by any means, but the first time I saw a pack haul down a coyote, it stayed with me for a long time. I think I was 12.
It wasn’t the dogs working the coyote over, but the dog owner waded into the fray and beat the teeth out of the coyote with a ball peen hammer so his younger dogs could get some work without getting bitten. I have never heard an animal make a sound like that since…
[ March 06, 2014, 11:32 AM: Message edited by: booger ]
Posted by TRnCO (Member # 690) on March 06, 2014, 03:40 PM:
I grew up around grey hounds, got a brother and cousin that still run 'em. Not once have I ever seen a truck with a "fence cutter" on the front and the only fence I've ever seen anyone go through was a hot wire that would get put back up after the fact.
Also never seen anyone ever bash teeth out of a coyote to protect any dogs. Pups learn real quick where the business end of a caught coyote is, they don't need someone helpin' em.
A hammer to the head, sure, for a quick dispatch, but nothing else.
But then again, the dog bunch that I grew up around were and still are farmers. SO, I guess that don't mean there aren't bad apples in the bunch that do that kind of crap.
Posted by WhiteMtnCur (Member # 5) on March 06, 2014, 07:21 PM:
How ya been Leonard? I'm an inconsistent lurker. Don't have anything worthwhile to contribute.
Thanks for the response 3 Toes. I figured along those lines on the age structure, but had no idea the landscape scale population reduction that's been achieved up there. My hat's off to you for it.
Posted by TOM64 (Member # 561) on March 06, 2014, 09:16 PM:
Interesting thread, I don't know nothing about much of anything but I do know that if the country supports a few coyotes, kill em out and more will move in.
My uncle has always said he kills one coyote, two come to the funeral and decide to stay.
Posted by Wily E (Member # 3649) on March 08, 2014, 09:07 AM:
I don't know where this "the more coyotes you kill the more coyotes there are" theory ever originated because it doesn't hold water in many areas. Sure is a popular phrase amongst certain segments of the biological community. With that said, I am sure it applies to many areas but certainly not all areas.
Food availability, habitat, recruitment (dispersion), and mortality combined will determine a given coyote population, not harvest in and of itself.
When I worked in SD, before the GF&P anti predator control Nazis irreversibly screwed the ADC program up (as documented by NASS predator loss statistics), we checked female coyotes for 25 years in all corners of the state and in all coyote population trends. Every year we showed a 5.5 average litter size on a statewide basis. Every single year.
This was during large mange epidemics and during a time when effective, well trained ADC men had depleted coyote populations in certain counties to the point where 2 coyotes would win a local coyote calling contest. Real coyote population control measures.
Litter size does not increase due to decreases in the coyote population on a large scale basis (the exception does not the rule make). The factor that does have an impact on coyote population dynamics is the number of yearling females that breed. The two factors influencing that are food availability and the coyote population as well as the age structure of that population. This was backed with research from Steve Allen in ND who adhered to the philosophy that all good research leads to more questions than answers. I concur.
The one thing I have seen as well as others in the last year or so is mature female coyotes that didn't breed, mature female coyotes that showed signs of being bred and never had their pups, and mature female coyotes that lost their pups shortly after birth and were already haired over by mid summer (parvo???). This was determined based on an examination of their reproductive tracts. Until last year, I had never seen a healthy adult (2+ year) female coyote that was not bred. Corresponding with that was a significant number of coyotes that did not need fleshing during the winter months. I have never seen either of these circumstances occur ever in many years of killing coyotes at any other time proving that anything is possible.
It's almost incomprehensible to believe that food availability (mice, rabbits, carrion, game, livestock, etc.) was so depleted in such a large geographical area that coyotes actually had difficulties finding food and couldn't travel far enough to find greener pastures but, for whatever reason, that is exactly what occurred in a pretty large geographical area as proven by the body fat content of many coyotes during winter months. Sounds crazy but you cannot argue with an observation like reduced body fat or it's cause. As in cattle or other animals, when nutrition suffers, reproduction is the first thing to go. Anyone who has ever bred a bunch of heifers knows they breed best when they are on a gain unless they are too fat to begin with.
In the area I am currently working, in large part due to 3 toes and an excellent pilot's efforts before me, this past fur season I put on 9000 miles on my truck in two months and saw 2 coyotes out of the pickup window. You better believe you can get ahead of the coyote population if you have the resources, good predator control programs that surround you, and a little help from nature. 30 coyotes doesn't seem like much in a month and a half of hard trapping with a partner unless you can relate to what low coyote populations are really like. This area doesn't have any appeal to recreational coyote hunters and doesn't attract local coyote calling contests but lamb losses to coyotes are at all time lows according to ranchers in the area. If it was really true that the more you killed, the more there were, there wouldn't be any lambs left to sell. Think about that.
~SH~
[ March 08, 2014, 09:11 AM: Message edited by: Wily E ]
Posted by Cayotaytalker (Member # 1954) on March 08, 2014, 02:45 PM:
I see the hounds as not just well fed but made right. They look old school kind a like hounds out of the 70's heavier bodies. The ones that look like walker's or a little to open colored for me. But that's just me and it don't mean they can't get the job done. The blue dogs look very nice. that one blue tick on the out side left looks rather leggy. And is always nice to see a hounds that still has ears!
They make me think of hounds like Finley River Chief, Hershberger's Kansas Babe and Kansas Spot. Or even hounds out of Johnsons Banjo. There's a few others I just can't come up with any more names.
Do you ever bred to any of the modern coon hounds or just breed big game hounds to big game hounds?
Posted by Cayotaytalker (Member # 1954) on March 08, 2014, 02:52 PM:
For got I was going to ask do any of those blue dogs still have any blood out of Dale Camron's Blue ticks?
I doubt I got his name right but he would always run an add in Full Cry Magazine back when the mag was all about coon hounds.
Posted by WhiteMtnCur (Member # 5) on March 09, 2014, 07:48 AM:
The farce that bitch coyotes produce bigger litters under pressure comes from a Knowlton study published in 1972. How it ever made it past peer review and got published is beyond me. If it wasn’t the middle of calving season and two weeks from a few thousand head of ewes turning out on trail, I would dig through these binders and find it.
In the study area, a placental count was done to get a baseline, then ADC aerial hunted the hell out of the area which the study called “increased predator control intensity” or something along those lines. We all know that in rough/mountainous country where a plane can only hunt the valleys, the aerial hunting disproportionately takes more young coyotes. So the post-predator control analysis showed increased average number of placental scars.
Well, no shit Fred... The first sample encompassed 1-8 year old bitches and had a true average. After a bunch of aerial hunting that knocked out a disproportionate number of 1-3 year old bitches that have smaller litters, the placental scar counts increased. And thus the study concluded there’s a magic switch in a bitch coyote’s head that she can flip if she perceives there is “increased control” going on.
Knowlton published a study in the 1980’s that disproved his earlier assessment, but it’s failed to see much publicity. Crabtree has written a couple papers pointing out all the holes in Knowlton’s theory (which I think is just a dig at Knowlton who Crabtree dislikes).
The assertion is bullshit but every pro-coyote/anti predator control group regurgitates it like gospel. Even that turncoat Niemeyer spoke out against it a couple years ago.
In the area Wiley E and 3 Toes are referencing, are those sheep open-pastured or are they range bands?
Posted by Kokopelli (Member # 633) on March 09, 2014, 12:56 PM:
GASP !!!!
Are you implying that the big brain / skinny arms folks that work tirelessly to provide us data are NOT omnipotent ????
After all, they ARE scientists, you know.
Posted by 3 Toes (Member # 1327) on March 09, 2014, 01:34 PM:
Open pasture country WMC. No open unfenced range here. Most of the operations here do range lamb. I used to work in a neighboring county that had an extensive trail system to and from summer and winter ranges and it is a whole different challenge to stay ahead of the sheep and where they are going. It is completely different working with herders and guard dogs and trying to keep track of where everyone is or is headed. The open pasture country is easier most of the time. We do have some huge pastures with some producers. Some in the dozens of sections in one pasture, but still in a pasture.
[ March 09, 2014, 01:36 PM: Message edited by: 3 Toes ]
Posted by DAA (Member # 11) on March 12, 2014, 05:16 AM:
Short rehash of Knowlton's re-re-visiting of population dynamics:
http://digitalcommons.unl.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1025&context=coyotesw
I've got copies of the others somewhere. Been a long time since I looked at any of this stuff though.
- DAA
Posted by Prune Picker (Member # 4107) on March 13, 2014, 12:10 AM:
Dave, I read you post twice and agree with most everything it said. I wasn't around in the 80's to decide on the study results for that period but personally think (Guess) that the info is probably correct because the prior years and post years seemed accurate.
Awhile back there was a question about "what do you call a group of coyotes? I can think of a couple of names. Clans, Families, Packs, Groups, Hood Rats, clubs, etc. The mention of banner years of rabbit cycles out west is something I am convinced of having an effect on Coyote numbers. The Drought years comments is another thing I agree with. Thanks for posting the study.
Posted by nd coyote killer (Member # 40) on March 13, 2014, 03:33 AM:
I was going to post on the "coyotes choosing to have more pups" but Cal and Scott posted exactly what I was going to say and said it better.
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