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Posted by TA17Rem (Member # 794) on May 23, 2006, 06:44 PM:
Years ago i was on a coyote calling trip and i made five stands with no response. On the sixth stand nothing came in so i stood up and took the electric caller and held it over my head and turned it 360 degree's. I waited 15 min. and i spotted a coyote come in down wind, i could see him comeing for about half mile away. The coyote came to with-in 100 yds and i took the shot and got him. I did the same for the rest of the day and was able to get 3 coyotes all-together that day. I have have been doing this for quit some time and my question is does this make me a badd hunter since i'm breaking one of the rules as far as calling goes?
Posted by Rich Higgins (Member # 3) on May 23, 2006, 07:47 PM:
I don't understand. What rule are you breaking?
Posted by Doggitter (Member # 489) on May 23, 2006, 08:00 PM:
At the start of 2004 winter season I began calling downwind. Did a couple upwind as I've done for.. since starting to call in early 80's. I knew something just had to change with all the tracks I was cutting on my 6: Since that change my success has gone WAAAY up. I only call upwind now if the set calls for it. I do pick my sets for a downwind watch but sometimes it doesn't fall that way.
It's not a rule, just that a lot of people have a lot of success upwind. Whatever works best for you is the rule. Loren.
Posted by Andy L (Member # 642) on May 23, 2006, 08:42 PM:
If you set up into the wind, you only think your calling into the wind. Your always calling downwind, primarily, no matter what you think your doing or how your setting up. That is if there is more than a breeze.
Thats my take on it anyway. I have been calling downwind for a long time now. Might as well be watching the same direction the sound is going.
Posted by TA17Rem (Member # 794) on May 23, 2006, 08:50 PM:
Rich all the callers i talk to i mention calling down wind and its like ooh thats badd, you can't do that and kill coyotes. They well smell youre parts per million scent and you will never get a shot. The areas that i call in are wide open can see a coyote a mile or more with field glasses. I've had some either pick-up my scent when the temps where in the 40's or they seen the sun bounce off the roof of my truck, not sure. But i have had quit a few come in and get shot so i keep doing it. seems like alot of people have a closed mind or they dont understand. ??
Andy L. i agree with that also the calling sound will carry farther down wind.
[ May 23, 2006, 08:52 PM: Message edited by: TA17Rem ]
Posted by Q-Wagoner (Member # 33) on May 23, 2006, 09:30 PM:
The way I look at it is that if a guy knows coyotes and knows how to hunt coyotes and knows how to use structure he can keep 90% of his coyotes up wind of him. If a guy doesn’t have a freaking clue how to do any of the above his best bet would be to call down wind because if they are committed to the call that is where they will eventually end up unless you get them shot before hand.
In my mind, a successful coyote hunter’s mindset should revolve around what he can do to control the variables. If you can learn how to hunt into the wind you will kill more coyotes period. Getting winded is getting busted and on top of that you have just effectively associated your self with distress calls in the process. There is NO way to eliminate getting winded but there are many steps that can be taken to drastically reduce the chances.
Good hunting.
Q,
Posted by Az-Hunter (Member # 17) on May 23, 2006, 10:14 PM:
I can remember Ed Sceery making the same claim about the ability to kill more coyotes, except his stance was the exact opposite as Quintons. He maintained you could kill more coyotes calling to the down wind.
Im embarrassed to admit it, shows my novice ass I suppose:) but I worry more about having the sun at my back, than where the wind is blowing. I don't discount its direction as meaningless, but somehow, I end up with the wind quartering or crosswind....as long as that damend sun ain't in my eyes!
Posted by Q-Wagoner (Member # 33) on May 24, 2006, 12:01 AM:
Eds stance is well documented. I remember Ed and Scott going at it also but I would bet everything I own that Scott has called and killed WAY more coyotes than ED has. The sun to your back and the wind to your face is ideal but impractical. Very seldom can you find a stand that allows that to happen and still have coyotes up wind of you. Almost always you have a cross wind of some kind and the sun is never in the right spot at the right time it seams.
Coyotes circle for one reason and that is to see what the hell is making all that noise. If they find out that it is a person rather than a rabbit the coyote is going to bug out. There are exceptions to every rule but that is as close to a rule as you will find in the coyote-calling world.
Why does Leonard and Rich use mist? Why is there Sent-Loc clothing? Why do they sell odor eliminator deodorants, soaps and laundry detergents? Why do they sell scent blocker spray and cover scents?
It is simple. Hunters realize that once they get scented there success goes down-the-shitter!! If it didn’t have some shred of validity scent control wouldn’t be the million-dollar industry that it is. No one I know deliberately sets up wind of a deer trail and expects to kill the deer before he hits his scent stream. They make a conscious effort to set up down wind if all possible because it is a variable that they can control.
From positioning callers to decoys to even partners, stands are set up to intercept incoming coyotes before they hit your scent cone.
Just like everyone else on this board. I kill coyotes every year that come in from down wind. I loose just as many or more by getting scented and of the times that I do get scented it is usually my own fault. I get lazy and don’t set up the way I should and hope on hope that I can get away with it. When I do “get away with it” I feel lucky and that is it. I don’t feel like I have just unlocked some kind of revolutionary or lost secret in coyote calling. I know better.
Whoever wants to reinvent the wheel the can have at it but my mind is made up.
Good hunting.
Q,
Posted by scruffy (Member # 725) on May 24, 2006, 07:15 AM:
Mine are just the opinions of a piss ant in the coyote calling world, but I'll toss them in the conversation.
I try to setup with the coyotes upwind of me and setup where there is a "funnel" (might be what Q calls "structure"???) that funnels the coyote in the direction of my downwind side but requires him to expose himself long before actually getting into my downwind scent cone. Ideally I like setting up with a stand of timber or CRP to my upwind and a finger of timber or creek or something to my side that leads the coyotes from the upwind side to the crosswind side. With my downwind side a wide open field, pasture, etc the coyote that's at the end of the "funnel" 150 or so yards away must cross into the open to wind me. Depending on the land features I setup facing downwind or I setup facing upwind, but regardless my rifle is on the shooting sticks or prone bipod pointing at the end of the "funnel".
For instance a couple weeks ago I got in two stands. On the first stand I was setup prone on a terrace of a sloping field. I was facing south, the coyotes were to my ESE or WSW (every other direction was open field, ESE and WSW was "thick stuff", timber and crp), the wind was out of the SW so I was looking south quartering into the wind. Behind me was open field. Infront of me was a timbered creek bottom 50 yards wide connecting the WSW and ESE thick areas with a little drainage ditch to my SSW coming out of it that went up to a pond over my right shoulder to the NW. The pond drainage ditch was my "funnel". I was over 200 yards from the timbered creek and the drainage ditch "funnel" that came up out of the creek was 100 yards away to my right at the closes point. I figured a coyote would come from the ESE or WSW and approach using the creek bottom and then turn up and take the drainage ditch funnel to cut the distance from 200 yards to 150 to 100 yards and then break cover to circle downwind. A coyote came from the WSW, took the creek to get to the drainage ditch, came up the drainage ditch, broke cover at 150 yards to start to circle to get to my downwind side, I stopped the continuous playing fawn distress speaker that was 50' to my west in the tall grass of the terrace, the coyote turned and approached it straight on for 25 yards and stopped 125 yards out and turned and looked exactly like the HM coyote pic. The 55grain PSP from the 22-250 did the job quite nicely.
On the next stand on a different farm I couldn't setup with the coyotes upwind of me, and my only choice was to call with the wind or not call at all. I setup below a pond dam to get out of the wind as much as I could with the speaker 50' to my left this time in the grassy pond drainage ditch. The coyotes were to my NW and N and the wind was from the S/SE and now changing a bit in direction and speed, 0 to 15mph and very variable... 4 minutes into the fawn distress a coyote appeared 275 yards out running for the drainage ditch (funnel) to approach the call with wide open black dirt fields on both sides of the drainage ditch. At 200 yards he checked up, poked around, ran towards the call a few steps, then backed away, then closer, but stayed around 200 yards give or take 10 yards for over a minute moving back and forth. Then the coyote ran away... Because of the tall grass in the drainage ditch and the angle all I had was a headshot for that minute of time. I could have tried, and if I was prone on this stand I might have tried, but sitting with the rifle on sticks I decided to see if he'd come closer and then when he decided to leave I couldn't stop him so he didn't get any lead flung at him. I changed to canine pups to either call him back in or call another in. 7 minutes into that sound either the coyote returned or another one came in. This one ran the same track as the first, ran to the end of the drainage ditch, started up the ditch, then at 250 yards broke out of the ditch and stopped and stood broadside in the open field. I steadied the crossairs and debated pulling the trigger. From me to the coyote was 250 yards of mirage heat waves off the black field with the sun in the cloudless sky beating down. I quickly tried to think where to aim and decided to aim dead on and hope the mirage didn't make me shoot over his back. Well, the bullet went right over his back, the coyote dropped flat on the ground, spun 180 degrees, and took off like he was shot out of a cannon running with his belly not 2" off the ground. Freaking heat waves....
After that I had to start the honey do list... Days like that I need to loose the honey do list! ![[Frown]](frown.gif)
Anyway, moral to the story? I called and possibly could have/should have killed both coyotes that came from my downwind side. They both came in fast and at 200 to 250 yards noted that something wasn't right and that ended their enthusiasm. Consequently both offered much longer shots than what I typically get. The first coyote on the first stand was typical text book for me and resulted in fur in the back of the truck. The big difference between the first and second stands was the wind. Both stands called coyotes, but the first stand using the wind to my advantage resulted in a relatively easy kill.
So in my humble piss ant opinion you don't break any "rules" when you call using the wind, you just give the coyote an advantage and that advantage will in most cases make it more difficult to kill him. I call with the wind when I have no other choice knowing I'm making it harder on myself, but if I have no other choice it's better than nothing. For example when the wind is blowing 15+mph I'll call with the wind, try to sit protected from the wind, and have had good success, even on days with the winds blowing upwards of 20mph.
So calling with the wind is more of a last resort for me than my prefered setup, but to each their own.
later,
scruffy
[ May 24, 2006, 08:36 AM: Message edited by: scruffy ]
Posted by Greenside (Member # 10) on May 24, 2006, 07:58 AM:
Andy
quote:
Might as well be watching the same direction the sound is going.
You might have lost me on that one.
Dennis
Posted by Rich Higgins (Member # 3) on May 24, 2006, 08:06 AM:
Most callers don't have an accurate handle on "downwind". Air behaves much the same as water. Moving air is redirected and sprayed by terrain and obstructions just as water is. Visualize river rapids. The water is made turbulent by velocity, twists and turns and erupts into a spray when colliding with rocks and other barriers, just as the air does. Water rises when heated, sinks as it cools. Just as the air does. Drop dye(Scent) into a still pond(air)and it will not spread out in a "Cone". It spreads in all directions. Drop dye into a flowing river and it will follow the eddies and currents, often in a narrow ribbon rather than spread out in a cone.
A coyote may stand where you think is straight "downwind" from you but may be feet away from your scent ribbon. A coyote on the otherside of a ridge line may stand under the clear air turbulance that the ridge created and the scent is rolling and cascading above his position, the back drafts and eddies pulling clean air into the vortex from the sides. This "scent cone" that everyone apparently believes exists at all times is simply one of many conditions that occur with different atmospheric conditions in different terrains. My point is that coyotes may not be able to detect you from where you believe downwind is. And again they may detect you from a considerable distance under certain conditions.
Ed Sceery calls toward the downwind from an elevated position. Turbulance from the ridge behind him combined with convectives from warming air may disipate his scent and make him undetectable.
Scott locates his coyotes and then approaches their position from downwind. In that wide open country a coyote that circles downwind had better pack a lunch, he is going to have to travel a very long distance. Usually they just take the direct route.
In thick cover with many washes or hollows that the coyotes can be in, and we can not be certain of it's position or approach direction, that is they can pop up on any point on the compass, we make certain that our downwind side is as open as possible. Although they can and often will approach from any direction, they will almost always wind up downwind if permitted to do so.
Posted by UTcaller (Member # 8) on May 24, 2006, 08:54 AM:
Over the years Scott and I have had this argument(wind direction) quite a few times.Although quite interesting and at times enjoyable,for the most part we both agreed to disagree.LOL ![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
Most of the stands I make are with the wind at my back.Like Vic Said,Ed Sceery is the one that advocated this theory.It has worked for me and I will continue to do so.I know Scott is a VERY accomplished coyote caller and killer and I have nothing but respect for him,but to say that Scott has killed WAY more coyotes than Ed,I really doubt it.But hey, everyones entitled to an OPINION.LOL FWIW Good Hunting Chad
[ May 24, 2006, 08:56 AM: Message edited by: UTcaller ]
Posted by scruffy (Member # 725) on May 24, 2006, 09:00 AM:
quote:
Drop dye into a flowing river and it will follow the eddies and currents, often in a narrow ribbon rather than spread out in a cone.
I've never dropped dye into a river, but I've burnt many a brush pile, old moldy hay stomped into the ground by cows, camp fires, etc and more often than not the smoke blows downwind into a cone shape.
For instance last week when the @#$% farmer north of me started the remnants of 4 hay bale feeding spots on fire north of me 150 yards and the smoke coned out as it blew over my place. I was all ready to go up and have a talk with him the next day (I wasn't in the mood to "talk" the day before...) and he had relit the bales, this time blowing right for his house... I decided there wasn't a point to talking to him and I figure he wouldn't understand... But the smoke made a nice cone towards his house as well.
And I'd say almost every time I've seen smoke from fires I've set they've made a cone, some wider than others, but a cone none the less. So while I'm sure the "ribbon" formation can occur, in my experience with smoke anyway, I believe the cone happens much more often.
Sorry to disagree.
later,
scruffy
[ May 24, 2006, 09:04 AM: Message edited by: scruffy ]
Posted by Rich Higgins (Member # 3) on May 24, 2006, 09:21 AM:
I said
" This "scent cone" that everyone apparently believes exists at all times is simply one of many conditions that occur with different atmospheric conditions in different terrains."
If you re-read and comprehend that statement you will become aware that the conditions and terrain "IN THAT AREA AT THAT GIVEN TIME" resulted in a cone of differing widths rather than a ribbon or a cascading roll.
The undergrowth in the forests in the Ozarks is set afire every fall to kill the ticks and chiggars. Cones are rare in the hollows and timber. Very rare in canyons and broken terrain.
Nothing is never or always.
No need to apologize for disagreeing and stating your opinion. It is as valid as anyone elses, until proven wrong.
Posted by Andy L (Member # 642) on May 24, 2006, 09:51 AM:
IMHO, your terrain makes all the difference, much as Rich just said.
I know calling the big woods south of my house and the open "prarie" type ground is very different and the desert of SE AZ is different yet.
I do the biggest part of my calling in the "prarie" type ground. As said above by someone, I also use funnels. Put my call in a fencerow or ditch to let the sound blow where I want it and get off to the side so my scent is going into a field where I can see. It does result in alot of broadside shots in the funnel.
The only way I have found to do this in AZ was to hunt the higher country and use elevation in much the same way.
Seems like we did however succeed in gettin a conversation going... ![[Wink]](wink.gif)
Posted by scruffy (Member # 725) on May 24, 2006, 10:04 AM:
quote:
If you re-read and comprehend that statement you will become aware that the conditions and terrain "IN THAT AREA AT THAT GIVEN TIME" resulted in a cone of differing widths rather than a ribbon or a cascading roll.
LOL ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
, I reread every one of your posts multiple times and rest assured if I post my opinion that disagrees with yours that I've reread it many many times and comprehend it. ![[Cool]](cool.gif)
And I've reread the ozark sentence multiple times and I'll admit I've yet to comprehend how it relates. I've never seen that fire, but I assume it has to be very very large? Kind of like a grass fire up here where it consumes everything and makes it own wind? Maybe it's different, but I don't comprehend how it relates. I don't think I stink that bad to the point I make my own wind, LOL.
Not a big deal, I think I got the rest of your post. And I think we agree more than we disagree on this subject. Actually I'm not sure where we disagree anymore. ![[Confused]](confused.gif)
later,
scruffy
[ May 24, 2006, 10:11 AM: Message edited by: scruffy ]
Posted by scruffy (Member # 725) on May 24, 2006, 10:08 AM:
quote:
Seems like we did however succeed in gettin a conversation going...
I believe you right!
later,
scruffy
[ May 24, 2006, 10:09 AM: Message edited by: scruffy ]
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on May 24, 2006, 10:22 AM:
As one of my hero's once said, None of this is graven in stone".
But, we have to understand the conditions that exist in various places. I still remember the uncallable Kansas coyotes, thanks to the dinks that were educating a lot more coyotes than they were killing.
In the cover that I am used to, you are making a big mistake to call and watch upwind. I can guess, but am never certain for which direction a coyote will show up. But, I sure as hell know where he will wind up, if I am blocked from seeing his approach.
This all changes when you are calling more open areas.
For me, wind direction is only one of several factors in setting up a stand. Hell, sometimes it's dead calm, now what is your solution, if that's the only thing you pay attention to? Often enough, wind direction changes three times on a stand. When that happens, I believe the coyotes realize this and generally make a direct approach while giving up on the effort to scent, while depending more on visuals.
This subject is always good for a stimulation discussion and although some people never change their opinion, it sure is food for thought....and has benefit for even the champions among us.
Good hunting. LB
Posted by Rich Higgins (Member # 3) on May 24, 2006, 11:16 AM:
Scruffy, I re-read my own statement that you quoted and it reads in print a little different than it read in my head. I tend to "read over" long posts and sometimes my comprehension suffers a little. I posted the pertinent statement for your benefit if that was what had happened. I didn't mean to sound like a pompous twit.
The burns in the Ozarks just remove the undergrowth. They do not burn the trees. The burns are not roaring infernos, mostly they are just smoldering ,glowing, creeping burns. The smoke sometimes hangs over the hollows and sometimes plumes straight up. (Warm air rising) Cones? Seldom.
Posted by Andy L (Member # 642) on May 24, 2006, 12:38 PM:
There arent as many burns, around here anyway, as there used to be. Dont know why. Only bad things I have seen are more law suites from "outsiders" that have bought up alot of land around here and dont understand the concept. They get mad when fire goes over a fence.
My grandpa used to burn off all his land every year or two. Sure helped with underbrush, ticks, chiggers and helped grass grow. Once in a while you get the wind going and one would get out of control but not often. Actually, we used to cut wide fire lanes as soon as the property was bought. Also made it much easier to drive around and build the boundry fence than to carry that crap up and down hills in the woods.
Posted by scruffy (Member # 725) on May 24, 2006, 01:12 PM:
Rich, thanks for the clarification on the fire, it's alot different than I was invisioning. And as far a sounding like a pampass twit, it's part of the communication medium, the net... You can take a lot of statements made on the 'net' as pampass even though they weren't meant to be.
Like was Leonards comment "and has benefit for even the champions among us." meant as pompass? It could be taken as such, especially after the "dinks" comment earlier in the post. But considering the source I doubt that's how Leonard meant it. He's a good guy. (There's a reason why I use sounds like fawn distress, housecat, etc this time of year, LOL, dinks..... I think alot of iowa coyotes also run from rabbit distress sounds as well after Dec/Jan passes.)
In the same way I didn't take offence to your "pampass twit" sounding reply Rich, which is why I started off my reply with "LOL ". I knew you probably didn't mean it to sound that way.
And actually, I still don't know why I thought we disagreed... even after reading my posts... LOL.
A couple braincells must have bumped together wrong when I was typing...
later,
scruffy
[ May 24, 2006, 01:16 PM: Message edited by: scruffy ]
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on May 24, 2006, 01:32 PM:
Well, if it helps, I did not mean to offend anyone.
You know, a cone is a cone, but I can tell you that sometimes a "cone" is shaped like a wedge of pie and sometimes it's shape is more like a toothpick. I spray at night and it's interesting to see how the mist corkscrews downwind, doesn't quite act like smoke rising from a chimney. I more or less figure that my human scent follows the same path, but perhaps more dilute and (of course) less weight, so it may drift a bit higher and eddy wider? Who knows, you can't see it? Be it compact or spreading out, it is my working theory that the cone is not as cross purpose with the wind direction as some people think it is. In other words, if it is heading downwind, how does it veer off at an angle to the direction of the wind? It would seem to me that there is a mechanism that herds the scent in a column that may get ever so slightly wider, the further away it gets? From the coyotes that I have observed, while misting; they seem to stand in the exact middle of the cone, not outside. It's observable, to anyone that uses mist. They don't stop "approximately" downwind, they seem to stop "directly" downwind.
Good hunting. LB
Posted by Andy L (Member # 642) on May 24, 2006, 02:03 PM:
Leonard and Rich, do you guys notice any difference in reaction to down wind coyotes and wind speed? Like, do they seem to react any different if the winds blowing 5mph as opposed to 15mph?
Just curious. You guys have observed many more than I. It seems to me that scent isnt as big of a factor with a stronger wind..... But what do I know.
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on May 24, 2006, 02:19 PM:
Yes, the windier it is, the further they wind up downwind. It's as if they know that a strong wind might blow scent right over their head, keeping it up longer, so they seem to get way out there, the circle isn't a circle, it's shaped like a fish hook...sorta? You never know what they are going to do, but generally speaking, a higher wind velocity means the further away a coyote will be when he stops. Example, 25-30 MPH might mean 300/500 yards? Don't quote me on that, I'm just talking casual observations. Of course, they tend to stay put longer if they "fish hook" 300 yards downwind. You still have a shot, if you are misting and you are ready for the stop. Of course age and the status of the animal you are dealing with, would play a part in this situation, as well.
Good hunting. LB
Posted by Rich Higgins (Member # 3) on May 24, 2006, 03:00 PM:
Interesting question. Andy. But to be honest it really doesn't concern me and I haven't given it any thought. We select our stands to allow the coyotes to approach without leaving their security zones and expose themselves until they are upon us. We seldom see the approach. They are just suddenly there. We get many more into a stand that way than any other I have tried. It really doesn't matter much to unpressured coyotes but later in the season or in areas of heavy pressure it makes a huge difference. In Mo. for example, coyotes would much rather approach the stand in the heavy cover of the hollows than run across an open pasture. We set up so that they can do so. To gain our downwind, however, they have to expose themselves. Misting pays for itself if they pop up and we don't pick them up immediately. When contest calling with partners we string the two shooters in a line downwind from the caller, on ladders in really thick stuff, and the downwind shooters usually take the older coyotes.
Posted by JoeF (Member # 228) on May 24, 2006, 03:12 PM:
Would that be an English bait hook style "hook"?
I'm with Q above when it comes to the open ground and patches of cover found in much of IL. The most important thing to keep in mind here is what way the wind is coming from so you know how to approach a stand. In the more open areas of IL. you are typically calling to a specific area or point - the absolute last place you want that point to be is downwind of you. I'm fortunate in that my area of IL. is not stricktly limited to this flatlander approach - I'm right on the edge of an old glacier path and have some horrendous terrain features to a.) cope with, and b.) take advantage of.
Most of Mo. is more like Az., with even thicker ground cover in all but the deepest woods. Most of my middle Mo. coyote hunting might be considered "edge" hunting; edge in the context as used when talking about whitetail deer hunting. You might be calling a small field or pasture, surrounded by a wall of brush or woods. The cover is probably thicker than Az. on an average, you can usually either see a coyote or you can not. I've made the mistake (?) of passing on tough shots where one was headed downwind, disappeared from view before he should have ever gotten my scent, never to be seen again. 'Coarse I've not passed on some of those tough shots and the coyote has disappeared to never been seen again...
Hell, its been so long since I hunted a coyote I can't remember how...
Edit: I noticed Rich posted while I was typing... I hope I kinda said the same thing about Mo. hunting as he did....
[ May 24, 2006, 03:16 PM: Message edited by: JoeF ]
Posted by TA17Rem (Member # 794) on May 24, 2006, 06:30 PM:
Q & Rich thanks for the info i appreciate it. and the rest of you guys thanks.
One more question; does a persons scent decrease when the temp.s drop or does stay the same?
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on May 24, 2006, 06:39 PM:
well, depends on humidity, a little bit, but if anything my opinion is that a coyote's nose is a bit improved in cold weather, versus dry hot weather.
Good hunting. LB
Posted by Jrbhunter (Member # 459) on May 24, 2006, 09:05 PM:
Tim, if your questions/comments here are in relation to the discussions you and I have had (Which they very closely resemble) you are fuzzing things up a little bit.
I do not shame anyone for calling with the wind at your back, don't say it's bad, I just question your theories on a coyote NOT BEING ABLE TO SMELL YOU. As I've said before, if you kill 10 coyotes using the theory that they cannot smell over 100 yards then you could've killed 50 using some proven coyote knowledge. Also the ones you kill at 100 yards downwind have smelled you... they just don't understand or don't care what you are when the bullet hits them.
And again... we've discussed it on this site and Midwest, I've yet to see anyone agree with the concept a coyotes nostrils become nothing more than airways when the temp drops below 32°. That's ludicrous at best.
Posted by scruffy (Member # 725) on May 25, 2006, 06:31 AM:
TA, IMHO as the temps drop the layers of clothing on my body increases. As the layers increase I'm guessing the level of my scent, to some extent atleast, drops. When it's hot out like last weekend and I'm wearing a tee-shirt I imagine the wind blows more of my stink downwind.
JRB, I don't know about everyone else, but when I call facing downwind my goal is to shoot the coyote before he hits my scent. I setup so the coyote is upwind of me (area of timber/crp/etc) when I start calling. I'm facing looking downwind because for that given spot I believe the coyote will loop around me and try to get downwind. Or I give him a "funnel" like a finger of timber on my crosswind side so he can get around me in the safety of cover. When he steps into the open to get to my wind, which is say a 50 to 100 yard walk for him, sometimes much more, depending on the lay of the land, it's time to bark and shoot. The only time a coyote on a stand setup like this gets in my wind is if he's running and I can't stop him by barking (likely educated and equates standing to being shot...) or I'm sleeping with my eyes open, staring off, thinking of something else, distracted, not paying attention, etc...
Sometimes the land lays such that I face looking into the wind when I call. Regardless of which way I'm facing I believe you need to have the coyotes upwind of you when you start calling.
later,
scruffy
[ May 25, 2006, 06:35 AM: Message edited by: scruffy ]
Posted by Greenside (Member # 10) on May 25, 2006, 07:13 AM:
scruffy
quote:
I setup so the coyote is upwind of me (area of timber/crp/etc) when I start calling. I'm facing looking downwind because for that given spot I believe the coyote will loop around me and try to get downwind.
IMHO that belief is going to cost you alot of coyote. If you ask me, giving a coyote your backside with no consideration of a direct approach,into shooting range, is foolish.
Dennis
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on May 25, 2006, 08:20 AM:
well, shucks, don't sugar coat it, Dennis! ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
Man, I don't care where a man sets up or how sure he is of the coyote's location. But, I need to at least have a view of downwind, if not for him, there is always another, near by.
Good hunting. LB
Posted by Greenside (Member # 10) on May 25, 2006, 08:54 AM:
but Leonard, you're hunting on some 2 track, out in the midlle of the desert, where indeed coyotes could come from any direction. I'm not!
Dennis
Posted by scruffy (Member # 725) on May 25, 2006, 09:26 AM:
quote:
scruffy
quote:
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I setup so the coyote is upwind of me (area of timber/crp/etc) when I start calling. I'm facing looking downwind because for that given spot I believe the coyote will loop around me and try to get downwind.
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IMHO that belief is going to cost you alot of coyote. If you ask me, giving a coyote your backside with no consideration of a direct approach,into shooting range, is foolish.
Dennis
Dennis, "for that spot" is the key word there. Without getting into the specifics (because I need pics to show you specifics and I don't have time for that right now, sorry) there are spots that I call that I know the coyote is much more likely to circle downwind than to come straight in. And some stands the coyote is much more likely to come straight in.
Alot has to do with my use of funnels, assuming coyotes would rather approach a call in the safety of cover than exposed out in the open. I use funnels to get the coyote where I want him to be and the distance I want him to be and have him positioned to walk out in the open to get to my downwind scent offering me a good distance broadside, and after I bark, standing shot. Depending on the lay of the land this has me sitting looking downwind, sometimes crosswind, sometimes looking into the wind.
If you ask me , always calling into the wind without regard to how the coyote is going to use the terrain and land features to his advantage to approach the call will result in a lot of coyotes standing in your downwind scent looking at your backside as you blow the call into the wind.
IMHO , it's "foolish" not to use the terrain and his desire to get downwind against him. If you let him work the terrain to get to your downwind, solely concentrating on your "direct approach", you'll be missing alot of the smarter older and wiser "always circle downwind" coyotes.
In my experience it's usually the pups that come charging in from upwind, no regard for the wind or their well being, and I make adjustments for this behavior in my fall calling.
Know your enemy and use his advantages and tactics against him.
Edit: Dennis, I think we're hunting different terrains also??? I hunted with someone from northern Iowa on Saturday and he said he'd never hunted in brush so thick, up in his part of Iowa it's flat and the "thick" areas aren't that thick and are far and few between. Down in my area nothing is flat, the "thick stuff" is so thick that you can't walk through it, thorns rip you up, both the 1/4" long thorns on bushes and the 4" long thorns on the different locust and hedge trees. Every time I head north I can't believe the difference. I'm not sure which I prefer though, both offer different challenges.
later,
scruffy
[ May 25, 2006, 11:00 AM: Message edited by: scruffy ]
Posted by TA17Rem (Member # 794) on May 25, 2006, 10:03 AM:
The areas that i call in are range units (pasture) with deep drainages and rolling hills and very short grass. On most days the coyotes are along the drainages and i call up wind into them. If i dont get a response then i call in all four directions. If i was to leap frog to another calling stands there would be a good chance they would possibly see me come in. Also when i do call down wind i also use some type of structure like the deep drainages. The coyotes usually come in on a cow trail off to one side from where i'm calling from but still down wind. The other thing i need to mention is i am only going to be there for a week at a time and i like to cover as much area as i can. So instead of makeing 4-5 stands in a unit i make two and call all four directions and then move on to next unit. If i run into some smarter coyotes that happen to wind me i then make a note of it and i come back to area on last day that i hunt there and come in from different direction. i use a lone howl or some other prey sound and try to get them. Last year i did pretty good i was able to convince three vetrine coyotes to come in to shooting distance. It took me anywhere from 45 min. to 1 1/2 to get them in but i got them. for some its proably no big deal but for me it was a challege.
Posted by bigben (Member # 864) on May 25, 2006, 11:11 AM:
I am pretty new to the game but here is what I have done. it works and I do not have any problems with wind. I locate yotes with a siren. the next morning I go in so that they are upwind of my position. normally have a crosswind setup with the down wind to the left side of me. this has worked and I feel that is the best way. I seen the remark that you would not hunt a deer upwind of where he is going to go. no you do not but a lot of times you have deer just meandering through a area. yotes you actually are calling to you. the two yotes that I have called in using rabbit or prey distress seemed to head straight down wind. (could be pressure from fox hunters) the ones using howls and pup distress came rtight in and sat there. sometimes would only come to the field edge but all could have had a bullet in them. like I said I have only been in this game seriously for 2 yrs but I have called a lot more then I have killed for the simple fact that I wanted to learn more about what to do to get them back up again. take it for what it is worth. I know a lot of people on here have been in it for a while.
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on May 25, 2006, 12:22 PM:
Yeah, at it for a while. One of these days we need to figure out how many total combined years of experience there is, on Huntmasters, or figure it, per member? Gotta be a fairly big number?
Good hunting. LB
Posted by Rich Higgins (Member # 3) on May 25, 2006, 12:31 PM:
Leonard, Byron South just referred to Jay and me as "two very old guys" on PM. I really need another survey to reinforce that.
Posted by scruffy (Member # 725) on May 25, 2006, 12:46 PM:
I didn't think Jay was that old?
Just kidding ! Old is a relative term, compared to my 11 month old I'm old.
later,
scruffy
[ May 25, 2006, 12:47 PM: Message edited by: scruffy ]
Posted by Greenside (Member # 10) on May 25, 2006, 01:02 PM:
Scruffy
No I'm probably hunting the same type of structure as you. Live in SE IA and at one time or another it wouldn't be unusal for me to end my day a 100 or 150 miles from home. Probably passed through your area before.
You call them funnels, I probably call them fingers or cuts and it makes sense not to get any deeper than the longest one prutuding from the cover. Have you ever considered that a coyote might not be using that funnel(finger) for cover? It might just be the path of least resistence. Easier to go around that thorn choked deep cut than it is to go through it.
Dennis
Posted by scruffy (Member # 725) on May 25, 2006, 01:40 PM:
I did a couple stands in your neck of the woods (state) at the end of the day saturday. I've seen alot of coyotes while driving hwy 34, on the 9 stands we did on Saturday we called in 0 coyotes (0 downwind 0 upwind 0 crosswind), over 40 cows (ruined a couple stands...), 1 farmer on 4 wheeler, couple deer, few squirrels, dozen crows, etc. Skunked on the day and needing to get back, on our way west on 34 we looked over and not 100 yards off the road is a coyote in a field. We looped around and drove back and watched him mouse, squeeked at him a bit, he was very confused... But it's always interesting watching them.
quote:
Have you ever considered that a coyote might not be using that funnel(finger) for cover? It might just be the path of least resistence. Easier to go around that thorn choked deep cut than it is to go through it.
I believe most coyotes take the path of least resistance. And most thorn choked deep cuts have deer trials through them.
And I've seen coyotes walk the outside of timber fingers instead of walking through them. And I've seen them walk right across the middle of an open field. But the majority of them I've seen travel in cover when it's available (you'll see alot more coyotes traveling through cover when you setup to use farm creek crossings and such to catch circling coyotes Without the crossing creating a break in the cover the coyote had to cross the coyote would likely never have been seen in the cover).
quote:
You call them funnels, I probably call them fingers or cuts and it makes sense not to get any deeper than the longest one prutuding from the cover.
Which is easier, looking at a sound source infront of you as you walk forward or looking at a sound source to your side and a little behind you as you walk forward? It's much easier to look ahead at the sound source as you walk forward. When the sound source is to your side and eventually over your shoulder you have to continually look back and forth, back at the sound source, then back infront of you as you walk. A coyote has to do the same thing when working through cover. He can't "lock on" because he has to watch where he's walking.
The less he's looking at you as he approaches the sound source the less likely he'll be to spot something out of place, a little movement, etc that will cause him to retreat or the very least not break cover.
On some stands I like to keep all the action in front of me and don't sit very deep. Other stands, based on the lay of the land, fences, cover, wind, etc I setup and call deeper than the end of the funnels.
It's different setting up when you know the coyote is coming from behind you, you might not like it, might keep looking over your shoulder, etc. Calling a coyote from behind you out around you isn't the best setup for alot of places, but some places it's the best way to call and get the coyote in the open without getting yourself busted in the process.
You know, we should go calling sometime I'm in your neck of the woods or your in mine. I'll take the downwind side and you can have the upwind side. It's perfect!
later,
scruffy
[ May 25, 2006, 01:44 PM: Message edited by: scruffy ]
Posted by Greenside (Member # 10) on May 25, 2006, 01:45 PM:
quote:
It's perfect!
Yep, Always have liked fishing out of the front of the boat!
Dennis
Posted by Cdog911 (Member # 7) on May 25, 2006, 02:33 PM:
scruffy,
I think I kinda maybe have a handle of sorts on the position Dennis is taking in that I, too, must ask why you would give them your back when setting up with the wind in your ear in such a manner as to be able to monitor the route to your downwind is better? I hunt an area like you desribe and fully understand the challenges of not having mile upon mile of homogenous habitat structure from which a coyote could appear just about anywhere. As much as I would love to have the terrain and coyote numbers those areas boast, there are advantages to our types of areas as well. For instance, I can look out across a pocket of cover that may or may not be isolated from other cover, or if they are, it's often by brushy travel routes and corridors. Guessing where a coyote is bedded and how he may make his approach is pretty easy compared to the areas I've called out west. One of the big advantages of a set up like these is that the coyote is often at as much of a disadvantage as you are when it comes to setting up with a perfect wind and him using it to his advantage. Often times, I don't have the luxury of calling many of my regular spots with the wind in my face and the sun at my back. Rarely happens. But, I can setup on either side with a crosswind, giving me a 3 in 4 chance that I can work a setup while not at a total disdvantage (calling downwind) and still monitor what is often the only approach route a coyote can or will use. With our gridwork of traveled roadways, I even use those roads as funnels because few coyotes around here will go any closer to the roadway than they absolutely have to, and by forcing the coyote to move into open, coverless routes close to a road, you can easily re-route them to more secure/ more observable lanes of travel more to the center of each section of ground.
I guess my question is why don't you just turn 90-degrees and watch the up- and down-wind sides, making your approach via the side with the least likelihood of being used by an approaching coyote rathe than set yourself up for a backdoor 6 o'clock holy shit moment? Sounds like fun and it occasionally works for me, but I don't choose it when I have other options. Not trying to be antagonistic or call your method ineffective, but I am interested in how you make it work since you have had success with it.
Posted by Andy L (Member # 642) on May 25, 2006, 02:53 PM:
I think your right Lance. I think I hunt alot the same kind of country as you and the Iowa boys do. At least it looked that way when I have been through your areas. I think we may have a bit of an advantage in being able to set up a coyote over the desert hunting. Not in numbers by any means, but I know I can tell with alot more certainty around here than I can in AZ where the coyotes coming from. Mainly because of the terrain and their tendency to use cover and the way the stand is set.
I hardly ever know, or guess right, where the hell they are coming from when I hunt out west. Well, sometimes....
Posted by Jrbhunter (Member # 459) on May 25, 2006, 03:25 PM:
quote:
IMHO that belief is going to cost you alot of coyote. If you ask me, giving a coyote your backside with no consideration of a direct approach,into shooting range, is foolish.
Dennis
That's my stance on a lot of the tactics I read online Dennis. I think in many cases the theory has either worked a couple times or they saw it in a Randall Anderson video. Nowadays we have some websites to perpetuate the vicious cycle of misinformation and mass hysteria:
Posted by Cal Taylor (Member # 199) on May 25, 2006, 06:06 PM:
I have a simple theory on all set ups, give the least amount of advantage to the coyote that you can for that particular stand. Use every thing you can at that particular place and time to your best advantage, not his. I never say never, and have called in coyotes downwind, but I don't like it and see no reason to give them that advantage if I don't have to.
Posted by Q-Wagoner (Member # 33) on May 25, 2006, 06:52 PM:
I think Varmint Hunters sig line says it all. “make’em pay for the wind”
Don’t give it to them. LOL
Good hunting.
Q,
Posted by Cdog911 (Member # 7) on May 25, 2006, 08:06 PM:
I no more than finished supper when young Matt called me on the cell and told me he'd heard of someone with coyotes causing them grief. I ran outside and looked to the heavens to see if there was a coyote silhouette being cast upon the clouds to call me to action, but,... nope. So, I called the name Matt got and asked the guy right up front. Yep, he said, two coyotes were coming up on his front porch and terrorizing his lab every night about 2 a.m.. Well, I felt obliged to do my part to fight terrorism, so Matt and I sweat our way into hunting gear and off we went. Nada. never fails. Not so much as a track.
Today, she dang neart hit a hundred and that was just the humidity. I got the itch to try again and called Matt. Nope, he'd been wrangled into helping another fella get his turkey. So, I John Wayned my way out into this big mile-square pasture where we both were pretty sure they might be denning. I just couldn't bring myself to scruffy it and call with the wind, so I traipsed my way in toward a big pond dam and sumbitch if I didn't jump a big coyote on the way in. I mean BIG. He jumped up outta the knee-high grass about five yards from me and I thought it was a doe, it was so big. No sooner had I saw him and he was gone. I went ahead and called a stand there and saw nothing but bugs.
Went around to the north side of the same pasture and walked in. Nice NW wind, about 2-5 mph. Walked in to the east and set up with my back against a nice cedar tree. Faced south, SE at first and just couldn't get myself to do it, so I turned about 60-degrees to the left so I could see the approach. Deep lone howls and female lone howls, couple of them, waited five minutes, then a low lone howl and short series of puppy squeals. Five minutes later, two coyotes are about 300 yards straight east of me moving south to get into my scent plume/ cone/ribbon/tetrahedron. They get down, make the hook and start their way in. At about 140, all I can see is ears and damned if they didn't catch a snootful and turn around. I quickly got on the trailer and launched an anti-terrorist device his way. Quartering away, left to right, running about 3/4 speed and no looking back. Broke his back smack-dab between the shoulder blades. Walked him off at about 165 yards, give or take.
First kill since adding the new glass and having the Howa bedded and pillared. Seems to have helped. My experience training hounds tells me that the very slight breeze, compounded with the high humidities we're experiencing, only enhanced my scent further downwind.
Posted by UTcaller (Member # 8) on May 26, 2006, 07:51 AM:
Like I said earlier this topic is interesting to discuss and debate.But to say that calling with the wind at my back is costing me coyotes is utter nonsense and pure Bull**** plain and simple.Been having success this way for the last 20 years.I've heard all the stories of how coyotes have winded guys 2 miles away,and how some dogs can smell 1,000,000 times better than this or that.Coyotes naturally circle downwind and that's where I'm watching,VERY rarely do they wind me and if they do it is usually when they are within range anyway and I can sometimes still manage to get a shot at them anyway.So speaking of coyotes getting away,for all the wind in your face guys.How many coyotes are coming in behind you(downwind)that you never even see.LOL I hear the same thing with camo."You're losing coyotes if you are not fully camoed,especially your face".Says who? It's just someones opinion plain and simple.Very interesting disscussion and debate,but I don't put much stock in it.Good Hunting Chad
Posted by scruffy (Member # 725) on May 26, 2006, 08:03 AM:
quote:
I just couldn't bring myself to scruffy it and call with the wind
LOL Lance, I thought I said I call with the coyotes upwind of me and sometimes, depending on the terrain, wind, structure, gut feeling, etc, setup facing downwind. Edit: good looking coyote!!! Love that Howa! It looks like it shoots as good as it looks.
HEY JRB, look at the following and tell me what part of it "perpetuate the vicious cycle of misinformation and mass hysteria", a quote from you above agreeing with Dennis on one of my many tactics.
This is what I typed in my first post in this thread-
quote:
I try to setup with the coyotes upwind of me and setup where there is a "funnel" (might be what Q calls "structure"???) that funnels the coyote in the direction of my downwind side but requires him to expose himself long before actually getting into my downwind scent cone. Ideally I like setting up with a stand of timber or CRP to my upwind and a finger of timber or creek or something to my side that leads the coyotes from the upwind side to the crosswind side. With my downwind side a wide open field, pasture, etc the coyote that's at the end of the "funnel" 150 or so yards away must cross into the open to wind me. Depending on the land features I setup facing downwind or I setup facing upwind, but regardless my rifle is on the shooting sticks or prone bipod pointing at the end of the "funnel".
Also from a later post in this thread:
quote:
I setup so the coyote is upwind of me (area of timber/crp/etc) when I start calling. I'm facing looking downwind because for that given spot I believe the coyote will loop around me and try to get downwind. Or I give him a "funnel" like a finger of timber on my crosswind side so he can get around me in the safety of cover. When he steps into the open to get to my wind, which is say a 50 to 100 yard walk for him, sometimes much more, depending on the lay of the land, it's time to bark and shoot. The only time a coyote on a stand setup like this gets in my wind is if he's running and I can't stop him by barking (likely educated and equates standing to being shot...) or I'm sleeping with my eyes open, staring off, thinking of something else, distracted, not paying attention, etc...
Sometimes the land lays such that I face looking into the wind when I call. Regardless of which way I'm facing I believe you need to have the coyotes upwind of you when you start calling.
Lance, thank you for asking quote:
I, too, must ask why you would give them your back when setting up with the wind in your ear in such a manner as to be able to monitor the route to your downwind is better?
Off the top my head I didn't know the answer so I went over in my head some of the stands I've faced downwind instead of crosswind and I've come up with only one reason. And actually it to correct an issue I need to correct another way.
The reason I gave the coyote my back intead of my side is my strong shooting side being left handed is to my right. For illustration I'll describe a stand I did this multiple times. I setup with a the wind out of the north, coyotes likely to the north/NW, I have a north/south funnel to my west 150 yards, I have a couple of options. I can sit south of the end of the funnel facing west, wind in my ear, keeping all the action infront of me, gun on the sticks pointed at the end of the funnel, any coyote that travels along or to the end of the funnel, walks across the open field between me and the funnel, etc is on my right side, my strong shooting side, as I'm facing west with the north wind in my ear.
But say south of the finger there is no cover, it's a baren field, my hiney would be sitting out in the open. I have a couple farms (all?) where a fence crosses perpendicular through a timber or grassy draw/funnel. So in this illustration (and I'm describing one of my favorite/productive spots) the wind is out of the north, coyotes are north/nw, north/south finger of timber funnel west of me 150 yards, and an east/west fence that cuts through the funnel with the end of the funnel being nearly 100 yards south of the fence. I sit along the fence, rifle on sticks, pointed at the end of the funnel.
Now, say on that stand I sit facing west with the wind in my right ear, left handed, my strong shooting side to my right, the end of the funnel and my downwind is to my left, my weak shooting side. If I feel a coyote is more likely to use the funnel to circle rather than come straight in (odds increase later and later in the winter....) I can do one of two things. I can shoot right handed or I can turn my body 90 degrees to the left, face downwind/south, my strong shooting side on my right now includes my downwind and the end of the funnel.
In Nov 2003 I called the above stand three times facing crosswind and had 3 adult coyotes go to my downwind side, my weak side as I sat there facing crosswind (double one stand used the funnel, single another stand didn't use the funnel) and one pup came in from upwind. On the three that circled downwind I scooted 60-90 degrees to the left before the shot so I could shoot left handed instead of shooting right handed.
On the pup who didn't circle, he must have came from the north east or east because he came from behind me as i sat facing west/crosswind. I didn't see him approach, but I about filled my drawers when he sniffed the back of my neck! ![[Eek!]](eek.gif)
So to avoid scooting and busting myself and then potentionally only having a running shot opportunity, depending on alot of conditions and certainly not a majority of the time, I'll sit facing downwind instead of crosswind so my strong shooting side is aligned with the coyote's likely approach.
Now all that being said, I'm not saying it's the best approach to address the "weak shooting side" issue. Especially now that I see why I'm doing it, LOL... A better approach would be to become equally comfortible shooting both left and right handed. Every fall I shoot squirrels with my single shot 22mag left and right handed as practice. If a coyote was standing I think I'd do pretty good on dropping him right handed, but if the coyote was moving and barking didn't stop him I'm not sure how well I could accurately hit him shooting right handed. Swinging the rifle righthanded just isn't natural for me. I just need to practice practice practice.
There might be other reasons why I've faced downwind instead of crosswind, but I can't think of any right off the top of my head.
Does that help explain Lance. How do the rest of you guys handle your "weak side"??? Scoot around when the coyote shows up, switch hit (shoot both right and left handed), or is there another solution (yea, a right handed partner would work also ).
later,
scruffy
[ May 26, 2006, 09:04 AM: Message edited by: scruffy ]
Posted by Greenside (Member # 10) on May 26, 2006, 10:19 AM:
quote:
How do the rest of you guys handle your "weak side"??? Scoot around when the coyote shows up, switch hit (shoot both right and left handed), or is there another solution
quote:
But say south of the finger there is no cover, it's a baren field, my hiney would be sitting out in the open
Setup southwest of that finger, in the barren field with the wind in your face.
Dennis
[ May 26, 2006, 10:25 AM: Message edited by: Greenside ]
Posted by Cal Taylor (Member # 199) on May 26, 2006, 10:31 AM:
Chad, What you are expecting us to believe is that in 20 years you have never had a coyote wind you and haul ass? And all this time in Utah, which gets the crap called out of it?
As to the downwind, my explanation is pretty much the same as Quintons. I use it to may advantage, if I can't block out the downwind with terrain, I try to assure myself of a clear shot somewhere between point A (where I think the coyote is coming from) and point B (where I think he is going to head to to get the wind). I definately purpously set up in a way that makes it the least likely to get back doored. I hate it when that happens.
Posted by scruffy (Member # 725) on May 26, 2006, 10:44 AM:
quote:
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
How do the rest of you guys handle your "weak side"??? Scoot around when the coyote shows up, switch hit (shoot both right and left handed), or is there another solution
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
But say south of the finger there is no cover, it's a baren field, my hiney would be sitting out in the open
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Setup southwest of that finger, in the barren field with the wind in your face.
Dennis
I tried that actually. The ground east and SE of the timber finger is flat, west and SW of the timber finger is rolling up and down. No matter where I setup on the west and SW side I had huge blind spots that would hide a coyotes approach. I layed prone on the highest point to the SW with the least blind spots, put out a turkey decoy I had in the truck for giggles to see what would happen, and called for 45 minutes as the sun went down behind me. Nothing... Didn't see a blame thing. Until I stood up.... I walked the 50' or so to the turkey decoy and a couple of hens had snucked in on me, they were 100 or so yards away eyeing my hen decoy...
later,
scruffy
Posted by UTcaller (Member # 8) on May 26, 2006, 11:55 AM:
Cal,
First off, I Never said that I have NEVER been winded.I said RARELY...
Second, I Rarely hunt in Utah anymore.Most of my calling is done on Ranches in Nevada.
Wind is a weird thing.To think that just because the wind is blowing at your back that your scent is going to travel right to a coyotes nose everytime is Niave.
It's like a while back when a few so called experts said that misting didn't work on a consistant basis,because a coyotes nose is to good to be fooled.LOL Try telling that to Danny, and Leonard that have been having success with it for the last forty years.
If a guy doesn't want to call with the wind at your back.Fine.But please don't tell me it won't work because it has worked for me for years.... Good Hunting Chad
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on May 26, 2006, 12:53 PM:
Oh Shit! Now do I have to choose sides?
There are many ways to hunt coyotes and I guess I have tried most of them, accidentally, or on purpose. The problem is this, some places, like Wyoming, you can set up with elevation and see what is going on for miles, any direction you care to look. I have watched Cal's video, he has a bird's eye view of his dogs working and I'm sure he sets up down wind, after locating his coyotes.
I cold call, most of the time. I do the best I can with the situation, observe wind, sun, cover, whatever seems important. I have to evaluate the sign, and determine if it's worth investing 15/20 minutes of my time. I can guess right, and can get back doored even when I'm right, on those occasions when multiple responses happen.
I don't think that I call upwind or downwind? I call crosswind, if given a choice, like the previous poster mentioned about favoring the weak side. I'm convinced, and have been for many years, that a coyote can sneak in undetected, from any point of the compass. I just like to have a clear view of downwind. It seems to this (admitted) amateur that a coyote might get downwind of me at any time, and I like to be aware of it.
Also, I have hunted Wyoming and Utah and Arizona and Nevada. In my opinion, there are a lot more coyotes in AZ and NV than there are in WY and UT. Therefore, you can't always be so sure of where they are and how many might be just over the hill.
I always want to kill a coyote before he decides to go downwind, but sometimes you cannot stop them from doing it, or you are blocked out. Therefore, I notice a significant percentage of coyotes that wind up downwind, and I am prepared to deal with that situation just like anything else that develops on a stand. It's damned hard to do, if you are sitting there, facing upwind.
Anyway, that's my reasons and we all know there are different ways of setting up on a stand. Some of us are set in our ways, and not about to change their mind, but there will be a few that read the various arguments for this or that and will likely see something they can understand, and use. That's what it's all about.
Good hunting. LB
Posted by UTcaller (Member # 8) on May 26, 2006, 01:40 PM:
I agree with that Leonard.There are a host of other things to think about besides Wind direction.The Sun not being in my face is more important than almost anything.Where I hunt it would be very difficult to block the downwind side for a coyotes approach,and since I know that's where they're headed most of the time,especially when using a howler that's where I want to be ready for the shot.Most of my shots are 100-300 yards,I don't take alot of shots from 0-50 yards and I don't hold coyotes on stand like Rich H. does,so I think that's why I don't get busted that often.First clean shot and I take it.FWIW Good Hunting Chad
[ May 26, 2006, 01:43 PM: Message edited by: UTcaller ]
Posted by Cdog911 (Member # 7) on May 26, 2006, 02:33 PM:
scruffy, you answered your own question in your last sentence as far as handling the weak side. Matt is my main gunner these days and, of course, he shoots right handed. (I shoot lefty, too.) If we sit close together, he's on my right and we face 45-degrees either side of straight out front of us if we don't have much for cover behind us. Otherwise, each covers 180.
I think that most of us, upon introspection, would admit that Cal's comments, combined with Leonard's are pretty much spot on - sit where we can see downwind but don't rule out a stand just because you can't work the wind perfectly. Hell, if I aborted every stand where the wind wasn't exactly right for me, I'd be on a football BBS right now.
Given the three choices - upwind, wind at back, crosswind, I would say I try to call with a crosswind 60+% of the time, and downwind slightly more than upwind. Between misting and setting myself up for some visibility on my flaks,, I can usually handle the downwind issues.
Upwind, on the other hand, poses a problem for me, especially since I rely somewhat heavily on howling because of its relative absence in use by other callers around here. Since most coyotes
I've observed coming to vocalizations are doing everything they can to get downwind of me (not so much on distress), calling upwind would only create backdoor opportunities when you willfully direct the coyote to your blind side.
Oh, and BTW, NOT a good looking coyote. Surprised at how much coat he's still carrying around, and a lot of it had fallen out or been torn out by patches of mange. A male, he was probably a minimum 33-35 pounds, pretty hefty drag, and his teeth showed him to be (best guess) 2-3 years old. Absolutely no testes to mention. Frank, but no beans. He was running with a second one that looked just like him. I spoke with the lady whose husband called me to ask for my help and she said they actually had a peaceful night's sleep without interruption last night for the first time in nearly 6 weeks. I laughed and told her nothing crashes a party like someone showing up and killing half the folks invited.
Posted by Az-Hunter (Member # 17) on May 26, 2006, 11:22 PM:
Leonard, that was about a fine a post on the subject as Ive read; and, oddly enough, about exactly how I approach my stands. I would imagine I have sat with my nose straight into the wind, about as many times as I have with it straight into the sun....damned seldom.
Crosswind is my favored stand setup, with a slight angle to the down wind, being left handed, I sit at a slight angle to the call, looking to its direction with my eyes, but body position is canted to my right, or strong side.
Funny how different guys situtate themselves to a partner, who shoots with a different hand?Being left handed,and shooting with a right hander, I always direct him to my left. The simple reason being, that his natural tendency is to craddle his rifle with the muzzle pointing somewhat to his left, and I sit with my muzzle being oriented to my right. Never matters how safe I know my partner is, or in my own saftey habits....I don't want a rifle muzzle angling towards me at any time.
I don't see it as folly, calling downwind, just another trick in the bag as far as Im concerned. Granted, it's a fine line sometimes, when that coyote gets a snoot full, flares,and hauls ass, but I think the guys that like to call to the down wind, probably have refined their technique to the degree, that they get a shot before the coyote reaches that point of no return?
Im a dyed in the wool "cross winder", just my developed style, and it seems to work for me just fine. If I worry about anything, it's making sure Im not squinting into a rising or setting sun,and much less about which way the wind is blowing.
Posted by DAA (Member # 11) on May 27, 2006, 06:38 AM:
Tim defined my style on here a few months ago. I call facing away from my truck.
- DAA
Posted by Cdog911 (Member # 7) on May 27, 2006, 07:02 AM:
Alright, here's the fly in the ointment...
We go out this morning, Matt and I, to take a morning poke at these trouble making coyotes. We round a corner off the blacktop headed toward the first of two stands I want to make before I need to be home and Matt says, "coyote!". There, about 120 yards off the road, straight downwind of us, stands a big coyote. I roll to a casual stop, Matt opens his door and uses the frame to steady. Bang. Flop. I suspect that coyote wasn't concerned about "our wind" since he probably figured us for just coming in to check cattle or horses. He was a big old bastard and probably blind in one eye. The right eye was all milky and cataracted, probably trauma and old blood in the humorous fluid inside. This is him.
We left there and went down the road. Walked in a quarter mile and set up just off the back lots of the house where the coyotes are causing grief. Going with Ronnie's philosophy, "make 'em pay for the wind", the only set up we had was looking north and west with a SE wind. I set up at the east corner and sent Matt down the fencerow about a hundred feet to the west (downwind of me). All I used was howls and puppy distress and two sets in, here comes a small coyote at a dead run right at Matt, trying to get thru to me. Matt "woofed" him to a stop and smoked him at under fifteen yards with the coyote directly downwind of him. She is the smaller one of these two in this pic...
In any event, two coyotes, both taken directly downwind from 15-120 yards. Never say never.
[ May 27, 2006, 07:07 AM: Message edited by: Cdog911 ]
Posted by Rich Higgins (Member # 3) on May 27, 2006, 09:25 AM:
Lance, that is typical behavior for the Kansas subspecies c.latrans retardus.
Seriously, nice technique. You've become a coyotekillingmachine.
Welcome coyotehunter_1 as you know dealing with the wind in the Ozarks is almost a religious experience.
Posted by UTcaller (Member # 8) on May 27, 2006, 09:29 AM:
Probably just a fluke thing Lance.LOL
Posted by Cdog911 (Member # 7) on May 27, 2006, 09:33 AM:
Hey Rich, are those the ones that are most identifiable because they have one googly eye and keep stopping every so often to smell their own asses so they can remember the difference between it and a hole in the ground? If so, I'll add it to my list. And I didn't kill anything. Matt did all the shooting today. I didn't even warm a barrel. In fact, I think one-eye is the big dog I missed the other night. We weren't but about another hundred yards from where I bumped him off his bed. Matt made the point that he's two for two with that new rifle of his. I reminded him that is why I dragged him with me. If I wanted just good company, I'd be sitting out there talking to myself. For someone who knew nothing about calling or killing coyotes one short year ago, he's doing pretty well. Best gunner I have, and always ready to skip work, stand up his girlfriend, whatever, to go whackin' and stackin'. Boy's got his priorities right.
Posted by Cdog911 (Member # 7) on May 27, 2006, 09:35 AM:
Oh, and I had good teachers.
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on May 27, 2006, 11:13 AM:
Lance, that coyote has a decidedly "wolfy" muzzle.
About stopping the truck and shooting a coyote directly downwind. That coyote already knew what you were, no surprise that you smelled just like you looked. Quick, be still and invisible; it's worked dozens of times before, right? It's a bit different when they are in the middle of nowhere, and they respond to distress or howls, expecting to sniff.... (ta da!) coyote and rabbit, but the surprise is that they (instead) smell human! That's when they get the hell out of Dodge.
Good hunting. LB
[ May 27, 2006, 11:14 AM: Message edited by: Leonard ]
Posted by TREE MY DOG (Member # 731) on May 27, 2006, 12:56 PM:
Ok boys he may have been blind in one eye,but he is dead now. and if it's so impossible to succesfully call and kill kansas yotes {c.latrans retardus if your rich }from down wind why did i have one within spittin distance of me this mourning? not to mention countless more last winter? But i am still new at this so if yall say it can't be done , it must just be IMPOSSIBLE!
HOPE YA ALL ARE HAVEING A GOOD SUMMER!
MATT
Posted by Cdog911 (Member # 7) on May 27, 2006, 03:04 PM:
Boyz,
That there is young Matt, and as is the case with every young pup, I 'spect that this one's 'bout to be run off the porch with a first shot in this debate using that tone. (I can assure you he typed with a grin on his face.)
Posted by Rich Higgins (Member # 3) on May 27, 2006, 03:05 PM:
Welcome Matt. Glad you brought your sense of humor with you.
Posted by Greenside (Member # 10) on May 28, 2006, 11:32 AM:
Welcome Matt! Let me ask a guestion if I may. If you absolutely, one hundred percently had to kill that coyote or your reputation would be on the line. Would you make that same setup?
An example might be if a rancher called you and said he had a problem with coyote killing his one hundred dollar ewes and sixty dollar lambs and wanted you to take care of the problem. You tell him you'll do it but you want $100.00 down and $50.00 a coyote until you are sure you have the problem solved. He agrees.
So you decide to try calling and hopefully call in the trouble maker or multiple trouble makers and get the problem solved before you have to do all the legwork in setting snares and traps. It might just be a matter of bang, bang and you have 150.00 dollars in you pocket and the ranchers happy.
Do you have enough confidence in that type of setup to consistently get it done??
Dennis
Posted by Q-Wagoner (Member # 33) on May 28, 2006, 11:44 AM:
Exactly how many is “countless” for a guy that is still new to this? I have a real good idea.
Good hunting.
Q,
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on May 28, 2006, 12:57 PM:
PAGING: matt kohman
Posted by Cdog911 (Member # 7) on May 28, 2006, 02:31 PM:
Q- Be nice.
Dennis-
My rep pretty much was on the line. The guy whose property we were on had asked several ppl about who could get that coyote for him and every person he asked gave him my name. If that weren't the case, there would be no pictures because I don't call coyotes out of season unless I have a landowner having problems with them and needing help. It's how I get more acres every year. Those boys talk at the Co-op and the coffee shop and when you do right by them, they make sure other guys know you're looking for places to hunt. In the case of this location, there simply wasn't much other choice as far as set up. I've got five houses on that section of ground, and racing greyhound runways to watch for. One bad shot and you just bought $5K worth of dog meat. As far as the wind, I don't let the wind keep me from calling a setup if I really want to. This isn't wide open country where the winds move long distances. Between trees, hills, washouts, shelterbelts, and the like, there's no guarantee that the wind's still going "that way" when it gets out there a little way.
Sometimes you just have to hunt the setup you get rather than waiting for the setup you want. You guys that are so dead set that wind is always a bad thing should know that if I operated under that philosophy, I could easily kiss 20-25,000 acres goodbye on any given day. You just gotta know how to work with what's given to you. this guy wanted this coyote dead NOW, not "when the wind is more favorable", and BTW, FYI, and the like, the ind yesterday was 15-20, expected to increase (as it did) to 25-35 with gusts over 40. Put by and make do.
Posted by Krustyklimber (Member # 72) on May 28, 2006, 06:14 PM:
I always thought Bryan said it well...
"Did you just experience the rule, or the expection to the rule?
You may never know."
Q,
In Kansas, "countless" is eleven... unless you take your shoes off.
Krusty 
[ May 28, 2006, 06:15 PM: Message edited by: Krustyklimber ]
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on May 28, 2006, 06:21 PM:
Uh oh! and Lance has been nice to you lately. I'm not protecting ya.
Posted by Cal Taylor (Member # 199) on May 28, 2006, 06:38 PM:
Not to pick on you Lance,
Nope, nevermind, I am going to pick. If you are calling it ADC work, and it has to be done to perfection, what seperates the boys from the men is the ability to wait if necessary and get things right. Farmer be damned.
Probably the deadliest man I know when it comes to coyotes is a private trapper/hunter from Johnson county Wyoming. He is 70 years old. He wouldn't know how to turn on a computer if his life depended on it. He probably taught Bill Austin everything he ever knew. His father did the same thing before him. He KNOWS coyotes. And I will guarantee, he will not make a bad set up. If they are killing 5 lambs a night and it takes him three days to get things right, then by golly they are going to lose 15 more lambs, BUT, when he gets things the way he wants, they will ALL die. There is simply no question as to the end result. And he has seen the results of screwed up deals with coyotes that are actually killing and causing problems, and will not chance screwing up, due to the problems that poor setups and bad results can cause. Everybody can get lucky and have stuff work out occasionally, but the guys that really know what they are doing won't take chances they don't have to. I'm guilty of rushing things occasionally, due to guys really having problems and begging you to get something done ASAP, but in the end, sooner or later it will bite you in the ass.
Posted by Cal Taylor (Member # 199) on May 28, 2006, 07:02 PM:
Actually, maybe I can come up with a better explanation. Or simpler anyway.
When you have to look a man in the eye, and tell him that you probably just cost him and his family several thousand dollars because you just made a poor set up or a poor shot, or whatever the case....
That is when it will hit home, and you will really realize what ADC work amounts to and how people actually rely on you to make the correct decisions in everything that you are trying to do for them.
Posted by Cdog911 (Member # 7) on May 28, 2006, 07:10 PM:
Cal,
Can't disagree with a thing you said. Appreciate and fully understand your input, and clarification of what ADC is, versus recreational calling. I'm forthright in telling people that I'm a recreational caller, not an ADC man. I'll come out if I have time, do what I can and if I'm lucky enough to kill the offending animal. Super! If not, I made no guarantees. They're pretty cool with that, too. We don't have government-paid ADC people in Kansas. One guy at Kansas State does it all and he's appreciative as hell when I, or someone else, saves him a long drive.
Now, if I was ADC, and I was getting paid to do that work, and that work is what I did for my 40 a week, then yeah, I'd do what I needed to do to make sure I did the job right. But, I have a full-time job that needs my undivided attention, a family that expects the same, a shop full of deer capes waiting for at least part of my attention, an estate to work my way through as we settle family business, call orders to fill, vacation with the family in less than two weeks... the list goes on but you get the point. I offer to do what I can and what time and my schedule will allow, and they know that their problem - often caused by themselves when they inadvertently create opportunities for coyotes to do as coyotes do, then call it a "coyote problem" - are not often put at the top of my list of priorities. Again, I do it for the opportunity to keep my skills sharp, and make no guarantee as far as outcomes or results.
So, feel free to pick away. You're talking apples and I consider myself to be a lowly orange.
As far as Krusty, yep, I've been nice. Still plan to be nice. Ain't nothing changed here. But those are bold words from a man who, at best, can only claim to have shot AT coyotes. Consider the source considered. Won't mention the irony of him attempting to ally himself with Quinton to take a dig at me. Then again, I just did.
Posted by Cdog911 (Member # 7) on May 28, 2006, 07:29 PM:
Cal,
You were typing your second entry the same time as I was, so I missed it.
Yours is a different world than down here. You have ranchers and large-scale livestock producers that enjoy the expertise of a professional Animal Damage Control / Depredation man, and they're lucky to have that. No such critter exists within three hundred miles of me, except for one guy - Charles Lee. He's the only guy in a small office at Kansas State University working thru the K-State Extension Service. He's the one poor soul that gets the calls when good coyotes have gone bad. Unfortunately, he also has to handle everything from nuisance squirrels, starlings, bats, flying squirrels, rough fish, uninformed urbanites, etc., etc.. He depends upon the generosity of Kansas trappers and hunters to help him do his job when one of us is willing to step out and handle a coyote or whatever in his place when the drive is long. His predecessor, F. Robert "Bob" Henderson once told me he had to drive 6 hours to extreme SW Kansas to train a farmer on how to catch a problem coyote. The next day, he had to drive clear back there to teach one of his neighbors the same thing because their calls came in separately.
Your ranchers deal in big dollars and expect to pay a certain amount taxes or fees to cover the expenses of a gov't trapper/ hunter. Around here, these guys won't pay shit for services. They expect it from you or don't want it at all if it costs them so much as a dime. Never mind $3 a gallon gas and 70 mile round trips to their place. If you offer them a reasonable price (and that $50 a coyote until you solve the problem is WAY over their laugh limit), they'll show you the end of the driveway and just endure the problem until they either run out of livestock or the coyote dies of old age.. I have yet to see a single farmer or livestock producer around here, in nearly 30 years, agree to paying so much as a penny to get me to fix their problem. They'll take the loss first and they fully understand those consequences. Therefore, whether or not I'm immediately successful or not is irrelevant. If there was money on the barrel, that'd be one thing. This is another entirely. I make my best effort in exchange for trespass rights. So far, I've been lucky. Admit that. In the past, I've had times when I couldn't make the kill, but I've never had ground pulled away on me for that. In this day of leasing and locked gates, they pretty much have me over the barrel as well since that coffee shop talk cuts both ways. On one hand, they can spread my name via word of mouth, and that benefits me a great deal. On the other, they can let it be known that I can't do shit to fix their problem and that might (but has never) hurt me (yet) They appreciate the effort because I'm the only option they have. I am fully aware and certainly appreciate the problem that guys "like me" cause for guys "like you". This pack I got three out of this week have been a pain in the ass for me for two years because of noobs trying their hands on them every weekend of the fall and winter. I even enlisted dog wagons on them this winter when we couldn't make anything happen. They didn't see a single coyote in those sections, yet here they are - same place they've been for three years. Somehow, we've gotten lucky and intercepted a few this week. To those guys, the fact that we killed the one within eyesight of his back step makes him pretty happy, and that's all the ching I need outta this deal. No ADC men around these parts to get their toes stepped on, so no harm, no foul. Now, if y'all want to come down and help 'em out, I'll be glad to give them your number.
Posted by UTcaller (Member # 8) on May 28, 2006, 08:23 PM:
Greenside,
I definitely have the confidence.
Good Hunting Chad
Posted by Krustyklimber (Member # 72) on May 29, 2006, 12:23 AM:
Lance,
I was actually "helping" Q tease Matt, in a nice way... just playing along, and around.
(*and for sure didn't think I'd need protection for it? Sheesh)
Personally, I thought it was a durn good joke (not even close to a serious dig).
And it went well with one of Q's best zingers, of all time, maybe THE best.
"Exactly how many is "countless"..." 
I dunno why the amount of coyotes I have shot (shot at, or hit, or found after I hit, or whatever ), and my going along with how humorously ironic Matt's own bold use of the word "countless", are related?
Ya know what else is ironic? After I posted, I was thinking that I should have mentioned how nice it must be for Matt to have a pretty good teacher himself, and how maybe that could lead him to feel like he's had "countless" successes? It must have really helped him on, his learning curve.
He's a lucky kid, to have you for a friend.
Better late than never.
Krusty
Posted by Andy L (Member # 642) on May 29, 2006, 04:01 AM:
Lance, I think you got alot of the same thing going on as we do in this area. There are alot of ranchers that have perceived coyote problems. Most dont have a problem, but if they have a dead calf and see a coyote in the same day, they have a problem.
Heres an example. Im not going into detail, Im tired of telling it on here and other boards. But, an old farmer I hunt on alot, or used to, calls nearly every spring about a calf killer. Every year it sure looks to me like a still born that a coyote ate on. If I can produce a dead coyote, yearling bitch or whatever, hes happy as hell.
He also happens to be a big supporter of the road huntin, hound runners. I guess I had been neglecting my work for him, , since I didnt hunt much last year due to my real job, and he got them out there. One got a ticket for shooting off the road. (hadnt heard about that ) He had the nerve to go to the Dept of Conservation and bitch. Saying that these boys were doing good on problem coyotes and shouldnt be held to the law of not shooting off the road. They offered to send a trapper out to survey the situation and take care of any problem coyotes. He declined, saying they might catch a dog. I just heard from him about all of this friday.
I wrote all of this just to make a point. This guy is typical of most ranchers around here, and I suspect typical of alot everywhere. Every dead calf that has been chewed on was killed by a coyote. Every coyote is a calf killer. Thats how they see it. When a logical option is offered, he refused.
I will go kill the occaisional springtime/summertime coyote for a rancher like this guy. But I dont like to. IMO, its not as much ADC work, but more like babysitting a rancher that has no idea whats actually going on to insure I got more land to hunt on next winter.
Thats more of what it is than ADC work.
[ May 29, 2006, 04:05 AM: Message edited by: Andy L ]
Posted by Cdog911 (Member # 7) on May 29, 2006, 06:54 AM:
In Kansas, years ago, Bob Henderson started what he called the Animal Damage Control Cooperative Program where he had a list of trappers/ callers from every county in the state. We each underwent some training, mostly about liabilities, and if he got a call, we did, too. Bob's program was one of the most successful in the country, but it had its limitations.
The main method we used for handling a complaint was to work with the producer to evaluate his operational methods. In most cases, the producer was doing something (or not doing something) to create an opportunity for a coyote to do what it was doing that conflicted with the producer's interests. Oftentimes, simply changing the producer's way of doing things was sufficient to eliminate the problem. For example, I've had guys that leave their sheep out all night along big riverbends. Now, I'd never do that in, say, Texas or Arizona knowing full well that they'd be at the mercy of high school boys and middle age "artistic" sorts, but all we have here to worry about are the coyotes. Anyway, he was losing a lamb a night. Upon evaluation of the situation, I found that he had a carcass dump (mostly cattle) on the side of his farm opposite from the river. Therefore, my first recommendation, in accordance with our way of doing ADC work here, was to recommend that the producer do two things: eliminate the carcass pile and find an alternative means of disposing of his dead livestock (we have a large rendering company twenty-five miles away that send a big truck out for free), shed the sheep at night, and enlist a nearby guy that raises alpacas to maybe let him pasture a few at his place with the sheep. Maybe get a Pyrenee raised for sheep work. Under our SOP's that would suffice to keep the bosses at K-State happy, and often was the extent of managing that particular problem. I disagreed and always made/ make an effort to take control measures one step further. Because I see the issue as two parts needing a two-pronged approach.
In my opinion, the producer has two actual problems to correct: the opportunity for a coyote to cause grief, and the coyote(s) itself. If you only deal with one, the other will eventually rear its ugly head again. Eliminate the problem and that coyote will only find someone else to bother. Eliminate just the coyote and it's only a matter of time before another coyote recognizes the opportunity and you have the sequel.
Eliminate both the opportunity and the offending coyote and you've fixed the problem. Often, I choose to eliminate the coyote first, if at all possible (and yes, the producer may lose one or two lambs in the meantime, and he's aware of that) but only because the opportunity is the coyote's weakness, its Achilles heel, and the opportunity maintains the presence of circumstances that compel the coyote to continue with predictable behavior patterns that I can hopefully exploit.
In those cases where the producer has declined in eliminating the opportunity, the problems persist over generations of coyotes. I've got one guy that's like that - dropping his carcasses in a pit a hundred yards from his corrals. He knows I call him job security and he knows he's his own worst enemy, but still refuses to change his way of doing stuff.
I also know that this method is impractical for a place like WY or the Dakotas where sheep and cattle are on huge pastures and bringing them in every night is non-feasible. But that there is the difference between the world up there, and ours down here. And it also illustrates the fact that I'm not ignorantly stumbling blind around the countryside getting lucky here and again in whacking and stacking every coyote within a six mile radius of some poor farmer that thinks the coyotes have killed all his stillborn calves. The method I employ is one that has been tested over time and proven to be the most effective in Kansas given the circumstances we have here.
Furthermore, in this area I may have six or more different landowners on every section of ground, and ten different habitat types/ plant communities because of crop fields, set aside ground, CRP, creeks and watercourses. There are few places that I can call that I have the luxury of calling out across sagebrush and yucca for as far as the eye can see and where I can set up along whichever edge affords me the perfect wind conditions and direction. It simply doesn't exist here and as such, I've developed a technique that allows me to work around that issue somewhat when necessary.
Andy,
Ticket for shooting at coyotes from the road? LOL Around here, you can shoot them from the road, using a bazooka or whatever you want, anytime you want. There are absolutely no restrictions or limitation to your personal creativity on how you can kill coyotes in Kansas. That rule must be because you're further east, or it's all those damned Democrats.
Posted by Greenside (Member # 10) on May 29, 2006, 06:59 AM:
Chad
Just curious. When you setup with a coyote to your backside(upwind) and call downwind, what do you think the average distance from you that the coyote would pass (right or left) on it's path downwind? Do they ever stop and glance at you(the source of the sound) or do they just turn their ears in your direction as they pass by?
Dennis
Posted by Cdog911 (Member # 7) on May 29, 2006, 07:06 AM:
Krusty,
No offense taken here, man. Matt and I had a relatively good year, and more importantly, a good time. Looking over my log sheet from the season, I called 52 coyotes and killed 29 (many were multiples of 2 and as many as 4), 24 coons (killed 20), 3 bobcats (killed one) in 166 total stands resulting in a kill:stands ratio of just better than 1:3. Up in the big country, that might be average or below. Around here, no one else even came close to us. We were blessed to have a good season, and more importantly, enjoy ourselves in the process. Along the way, I managed to put lead in a couple coyotes that had been problems in the past and, in doing so, made a few farmers happy.
So, I guess "countless" is one less than 52. LOL Up there where Q and Cal live, getting to 52 coyotes seen is what we around here call "lunch time". If it will make everyone happy, I'll spend some time with Matt between now and November working on his basic math skills. Okay?
Posted by Rich Higgins (Member # 3) on May 29, 2006, 08:33 AM:
Lance, Matt implied that the "countless coyotes" were downwind and "within spittin' distance". Getting a little careless with facts can get a man "run off the porch" as you put it.
But helping to call in 52 coyotes in his first year is one hell of a beginning and you can't take anything away from that.
[ May 29, 2006, 08:44 AM: Message edited by: Rich Higgins ]
Posted by Rich Higgins (Member # 3) on May 29, 2006, 08:42 AM:
Andy, my experiences with cattle ranchers in Mo. were different than your's. I visited every rancher that I could and not a single one had ever lost a calf to a coyote. They all told me that the coyotes would hang around when the cows were calving, but they were just waiting for an opportunity for a shot at the afterbirth. Some let me call on their property because the coyotes were hard on their turkeys and whitetail fawns. The goat raisers were a whole 'nuther ballgame.
They all had high enclosures, llamas, donkeys and guard dogs, and they thought the coyotes were ruining them.
Posted by Cdog911 (Member # 7) on May 29, 2006, 08:48 AM:
Rich, we saw 52, and killed 29. Either way, those are good numbers for this part of Kansas. I spoke with him last night. Thanked him for letting me run damage control for him. He said he'd try to jump online this evening so he could get summarily booted off the porch to hang with the rest of the pups.
Now, before everyone gets their own alotted chunk of Matt's ass, be assured that what he posted was with a sense of humor and the zeal of a young guy still rolling in the wake of a pretty good season of hunting. Not to mention the fact that he popped the cherry on a new rifle with two kills Saturday not knowing if he'd made a good investment or not. I'd rather have to reign him back than build am fire under his ass any day. In time, he'll learn the benefits of "walking down that hill" and "screwing all those cows". LOL
One other footnote to my above post on Bob henderson to put into context the difference between what we have here compareed to those areas that have employed ADC personnel. Bob came to Kansas many years ago from doing ADC work in the Dakotas. He quickly found that the techniques that worked there are not nearly as effective here, and the system he developed thru trial and error is what we have here now. Since our depredation loss figures are under better control than most states, coupled with the fact that we're a major producer of cattle (one of the biggest, mind you) and other livestock, we may not be doing it western style, but we're getting the job done all the same.
Posted by Andy L (Member # 642) on May 29, 2006, 09:02 AM:
Rich, not ALL ranchers are like that around here, but there are enough. Most just dont understand, thats all. Like the guy above, they are frustrated because they lost a $600+ calf (at least would have been had everything went right to sale) and gotta blame it on something. Cant be where, when or how they had em. They have been chewed on so it must have been those evil coyotes. Funny thing about this particular guy, his neighbors never have any trouble with calf kills...
My family have been ranchers around here forever and my dad or grandfather neither one remember ever having a calf killed. Now when they used to raise pigs on the ground, thats a whole new ballgame. I guess I was a little wreckless with my statement.
Yeah Lance, you cant shoot anything from the road in MO. Im not exactly sure of the law, but I think you have to be 50' from the center of the roadway? And you cant shoot out of a vehicle unless you have a handicap exemption and then you must be stationary, off the road. Thats why I cant understand how the hound guys get away with what they do. Practically all of their shooting is done off the road and most out the window.
Its no secret how I feel about the houdsmen. I guess mostly because of their legal trespass and shooting from the roads have messed me up so many times. It really pisses me off to figger out a stand, walk in and hear a pack of dogs running. Wasted time. Happens all too often. I had a honey hole for several years until the dogmen found it. Now its not worth going out there. Seems if they arent there when I go, they have already been there recently. It used to be really good.
Posted by Rich Higgins (Member # 3) on May 29, 2006, 09:28 AM:
Andy, I wasn't disagreeing with you. I just pointed out the differences in coyote behavior or ranchers perceptions in a given area.
I know a rancher in Casa Grande that doesn't believe coyotes are a problem for his stock. Another that runs his cattle less than five miles away told me to kill all that I can. Coyotes had killed $7000 in calves that year. Small operation, must have been very expensive calves. A few months ago ranchers in SE Az.paid $200 an hour for aerial gunning. They must have been convinced that coyotes were doing significant damage to foot such a hefty bill.
Ranchers see a coyote feeding on calf remains or they may only see tracks around the carcass and some will blame the coyote without knowing how the calf died.
I know a rancher in SE Az. I like this guy and enjoy his company. He hates coyotes. He's convinced that they kill his cattle. He told me last year that he saw two coyotes attacking a range bull that was slowed down by hock deep mud within a hundred yards of his house. What can you say?
Normally, I just don't think that coyotes are a threat to a cattle operation.
Posted by Cal Taylor (Member # 199) on May 29, 2006, 09:32 AM:
Good posts Lance, and I had no idea of the situation down there, or where Andy is for that matter. It's a big country and I really never put much thought into what goes on elsewhere. On another note, it has always been amazing to me that the guys that make pretty good money in ADC work are the guys that work privately in suburbia removing squirrels, skunks, and other rodents and animals. Farmers and ranchers are notoriously cheap regardless of where you are at. But someone that is having things go bump in the night in their house will pay out the nose to have those sounds and smells go away pronto. I'll bet that the same farmers that don't want to pay you, would think nothing of spending thousands to have their house treated for termites or things along those lines.
[ May 29, 2006, 09:33 AM: Message edited by: Cal Taylor ]
Posted by UTcaller (Member # 8) on May 29, 2006, 09:44 AM:
Greenside,
I hunt alot of sage brush,mixed with grass type country.I usually am at the top of some small rolling hills or on the base of some larger hills(mountains),So most times I have a good vantage point of the coyotes coming in.If coyotes do come from the sides of me then I usually pick them up from between 200 yards up to 1/2 mile away.Good Hunting Chad
[ May 29, 2006, 09:48 AM: Message edited by: UTcaller ]
Posted by Cdog911 (Member # 7) on May 29, 2006, 10:04 AM:
Thanks, Cal. Truth be known, I love living in Kansas, but I often try to look at my backtrail and see just where I might have made a different decision that would have put me in place like yours doing a job like yours. I've got a friend that I played little league with all our childhood (my dad was our coach) who is now doing lion control in Malhuer County, Oregon. I'm envious of both you guys for living what I would love to have for a life. Then again, when I retire in 14 years....
Posted by Az-Hunter (Member # 17) on May 29, 2006, 10:58 AM:
I can't speak to Chads' particular experiences, but I have had coyotes blow by me anywhere from five feet, to fifty yards,and never turn a whisker. They just want to get to the wailing rabbit.
Posted by Cdog911 (Member # 7) on May 29, 2006, 11:48 AM:
Me, too. Quite the experience if you don't hear them coming up behind you. Even moreso if you do.
Posted by TA17Rem (Member # 794) on May 29, 2006, 12:25 PM:
The area that i call in the ranchers say they don't have a problem with coyotes as long as they don't see them in large groups like 3-4. The ranchers said that in winter the coyotes come closer to the ranch house to feed on rabbits that live around the hay stacks but have not been a problem with the cattle or horse's. In the spring they hang around the cattle and eat the afterbirth and calf droppings. One rancher even claims that he has a coyote that comes up to the ranch house in early mourning and plays tag with his blueheeler. On another note i have a rancher friend that calls me every fall to see when i will be comeing out, On his ranch he has alot of mule deer and the coyotes there have been preying on them. I thought that he was maybe blowing it a little out of proporsion. I went out the following week and from what i saw he was right on the money, i found three kill sites and what was left of the deer. I was able to take two coyotes off of his unit out of eight that week. And i got hold of a friend that lives out that way and had him come in and he got four over the winter. Shooting from the road: i dont have a problem with it, and have done it quiet a few times. Where i hunt you can shoot right from the window of truck if you wish to do so.
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on May 29, 2006, 03:04 PM:
Boy, it's not that way in The People's Republic of California. Don't even THINK about shooting from a road, and they define damned near any faint two track as a road. It's NEVR okay to shoot from a vehicle, or even off the hood of a vehicle.
In answer to Cal's question, yes, I also have coyotes run right past me, if I'm backdoored from upwind. I generally sit directly in front of a creasote or a mesquite, and I might hear them coming, but I just have to concentrate real hard on freezing, until they pass.
None of this is graven in stone, but putting a label on a stand, like calling "downwind" is sure to cause doubts and disagreements. Some places, you need to be loose, "play the lie", as they say on the golf course.
It has a lot to do with cold calling, and having a fairly high population, and mile after mile of the same cover. I believe, in specific areas, that upwind is probably the way to go? But in other areas, (and just say there was a contest situation), the guy with a clear view downwind will hand him his ass. You just have to know how to deal with it.
Good hunting. LB
[ May 29, 2006, 03:06 PM: Message edited by: Leonard ]
Posted by Krustyklimber (Member # 72) on May 29, 2006, 03:07 PM:
Lance,
If no offense was taken, why was it offered?
I make a joke, or more correctly GO ALONG with a joke, and you go for the jugular...
"How many have YOU killed Krusty?"
No matter how many times I hear that, it still hits like a punch in the gut, every time.
I'm pretty sure the answer is ONE (or none), I have no proof either way (but I doubt "the mountain coyote" survived for long, just long enough to elude me before bleeding out).
Try and remember that, so you don't have to ask again (especially in spite, when it's not germain to the topic at hand).
It's not like I haven't tried.
I'm up against a pretty big challenge here myself. And I never give up.
I know I don't have what it takes to get off the porch and run with the big dogs, but I think I have paid my dues in my own way, FOR THE PLACE I AM.
I don't think it's right for you to try and take the credit I deserve for that away from me (particularly when you yourself dubbed me "official" not so long ago).
I don't have a problem with Matt, his math skills, or his zeal.
I just thought it was too good of a joke to keep to myself.
I'll think twice next time.
Krusty
Posted by Cdog911 (Member # 7) on May 29, 2006, 03:21 PM:
Don't get your krust up, K. Just funnin' with ya. With all the time and effort you've put into this game, I'll be the first to give you an honorary place on the porch. You've earned that much. One of these days, you're gonna win a trip someplace and instead of the cruise offered, you'll take someone up on their offer to put you on countless coyotes. And when you get there, you'll do fine. Play nice.
Leonard,
Believe it or not, there are times when I use that wind issue to my advantage. After all, the li'l bastards are going there anyway and I can't stop them. Why not set up to cover the route between where they are and where they're going to end up downwind and let 'em have it on the way. That's pretty much what we did Saturday morning, and for the record, I set Matt downwind of me as an intercept. His being where he was and the factb that that coyote trekked right in front of him weren't just an accident. Hey, it worked.
[ May 29, 2006, 03:24 PM: Message edited by: Cdog911 ]
Posted by UTcaller (Member # 8) on May 29, 2006, 06:35 PM:
Vic,
I have had a few of those kamakazi coyotes that fly by with no regard for anyone or anything but getting that rabbit. But like I said MOST of the time I see them coming from quite a ways out.Good Hunting Chad
Posted by JD (Member # 768) on May 29, 2006, 09:08 PM:
One time I was hunting in some hilly cedar country & set up facing downwind in a 10mph wind during a heavy snowfall, I stood back in a tall cedar where I could see both crosswinds & down wind with a good view, after about 5 min. I felt something against my leg & looked down behind me in the tree in time to see a flash of fur, I guess the coyote didn`t have a clue until he brushed against my leg & caught a whiff of me, he dove over a bank & disappeared before I could get the crosshairs on him.
So in a moment of stupidity I moved around the tree to face the other way & about 10 min. later a coyote coyote blew past me just a few feet away dropped over the same bank into the thick trees that the first one did.
I picked up the call & looked at the tracks from the second coyote & they had come "almost" from directly downwind, had I stayed with the set up that I "knew" was a better set up for the area I would have had ample opportunity to shoot the second coyote.
I prefer to call crosswind with a view of the downwind if at all possible but it just goes to show that you never know when the exception is going to backdoor you. The reason I chose to call directly downwind to begin with was due to terrain & the fact that I was on HIGH ground & my scent would probably stay above the lower terrain & the wind would carry the sound better down through the cedars.
I did move on down the road & stick with what I knew was right & killed a couple coyotes before the day was over so I guess I can laugh about it now.
Never a dull moment.
Posted by Krustyklimber (Member # 72) on May 30, 2006, 11:44 AM:
Lance,
If that's your idea of "funnin" with someone, to sucker punch them in the guts, I DON'T WANT TO PLAY ANYMORE.
YOU don't get to GIVE me and honorary position, I already more than earned it for myself.
I KNEW I was "official", long before you ever said anything.
Win a trip? What you are talking about?
If I felt like going someplace else, I now have enough money I can get in my truck and go anyplace I like, for (practically) as long as I like.
Cruises included.
I just don't have anyplace I want to go.
Most (if not all) of the "offers" I have recieved appear to be no longer valid.
It took a few years for me to come to grips with, BUT I am on my own, and I am okay with that now.
I doubt I will ever travel very far to hunt coyotes.
Krusty
Posted by Rich Higgins (Member # 3) on May 30, 2006, 11:59 AM:
Lance
"Didn't bury 'em deep enough. Saw it right off."
Will Geer in Jeremiah Johnson
Posted by Cdog911 (Member # 7) on May 30, 2006, 01:54 PM:
Oh well...
Posted by Rich (Member # 112) on May 30, 2006, 04:37 PM:
"Down wind coyotes", now that title rings a bell. I wrote an article for Trapper and Predator caller with that very title. That was several years ago, probably in early 1990's. I had spent a few days down around Wellington,Texas for purpose of whacking a few of their resident coyotes. The terrain in that area changes quite quickly when you drive just a few miles in either direction. When I was calling the rolling prairie where I could get up high on a sidehill and see for a long ways, I had pretty good luck by calling down winderly. I find that I am almost always calling toward some type of distant cover that looks "Gamey". Coyotes seem to like spending daylight hours back in there with the rabbits, quail and other fine foods. Anyways, I tried to setup with wind at my back but the cover I was actually calling toward would be to right or left of downwind. Coyotes coming out of the cover would usually head for my scent cone on their way in, but most of em got dead before they figured it may be dangerous over there at my hidey hole.
Each hunter will have their own special way of working the wind, or at least the successful hunters will.
Posted by Jrbhunter (Member # 459) on May 30, 2006, 07:36 PM:
As Doc would say: Why Krusty, I do believe Poker is just not your game...
*Yawn*
Posted by Cdog911 (Member # 7) on May 30, 2006, 07:49 PM:
So much for being "nice" Some people just don't know how to do "nice". You come in here and jump into a discussion to "make a joke" that, frankly, I took (or mistook) as a slight at me or my partner, and when I return your volley, you come out acting like anything that's going on here has anything to do with YOU. It isn't about YOU, Jeff! Get it? Get over it!
Tell ya what...I'll make you happy and just resume acting like you're the non-factor you are and that you don't exist. Makes everyone's life that much easier. But I will go away making sure that you understand quite clearly that even though Matt is a rookie at calling and that he only has three solid months of calling coyotes under his belt, compared to your 5+ years, he's still managed to kill (roughly) 18-20 times more coyotes in that time than you can claim over your storied lifetime.
(There Leonard, does that breathe some life into the board? )
[ May 30, 2006, 07:49 PM: Message edited by: Cdog911 ]
Posted by TA17Rem (Member # 794) on May 30, 2006, 08:10 PM:
ouch thats hot!
Cdog911: The grass is green the sun is warm, The grass is green the sun is warm.
[ May 30, 2006, 08:14 PM: Message edited by: TA17Rem ]
Posted by Steve Craig (Member # 12) on May 30, 2006, 08:40 PM:
I just wait for a day with no wind, then I dont have to worry about it! LOL
Posted by Krustyklimber (Member # 72) on May 30, 2006, 09:25 PM:
Lance,
As usual things between you and I have spiralled out of proportion.
For my part, I'm sorry.
You are right, this isn't about me, the same as it isn't about you either.
I don't think I "jumped in" anywhere I am not supposed to be, or that the "punishment" befit the "crime".
I don't think you needed to go for the throat, the way you did.
Comparing my own situation to Matt's isn't really fair.
He's not alone out there, and he's not here.
I don't have a "Lance", and I am not in the open prairie.
I never meant to take anything away from the accomplishment you guys had as a team, or Matt's own part of that.
You guys had to be doing something right... and some luck also had to be on your side.
Congratulations to both of you.
As I said, I don't want to play anymore. I'll go away now myself.
To all of you,
May the wind always be where ever it is you want it, and may your bullets land where you planned.
Good Bye
Krusty
Posted by Rich Higgins (Member # 3) on May 31, 2006, 07:14 AM:
[ May 31, 2006, 07:15 AM: Message edited by: Rich Higgins ]
Posted by Rich (Member # 112) on May 31, 2006, 10:32 AM:
I hope this works. http://www.veofun.com/df-26
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on May 31, 2006, 12:24 PM:
I don't care who you are. That's funny as hell.
Posted by TA17Rem (Member # 794) on May 31, 2006, 05:36 PM:
That was a good one Rich, LOL
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on June 01, 2006, 02:16 AM:
I don't believe this? Krusty and Lance team up to bag a nice dog coyote!
Way to go. boys! Krusty broke his cherry thanks to Lance's expert calling.
(egads, don't the sun ever shine in Seattle?)
[ June 01, 2006, 02:20 AM: Message edited by: Leonard ]
Posted by Rich (Member # 112) on June 01, 2006, 06:20 AM:
The K&L calling team has connected! I think this is the sound they used http://www.veofun.com/NewMouse
Posted by TREE MY DOG (Member # 731) on June 04, 2006, 04:27 PM:
well boys i was going to try to slink off the porch quietly,but.....
just a small bone to chew on first>>>
COUNTLESS is more than krusty has seen or shot at. krusty, maybe you should shoot a paper target a little more and you could actually kill a yote instead of just shooting at them. when you are good like lance rich cal and Q people will tell you, so feel free to shut up any time you feel lance has gut punched you enough. i never claimed to be good or great and you know what i am not good yet. i may never be but some one will tell me when i am.
well hope yall liked chewing on me just a little, maybe some day i can be invited back to the porch.
PS. go back to your village ###### ####### !
pps just funnin with ya
Posted by Cdog911 (Member # 7) on June 04, 2006, 05:02 PM:
To honest, I wasn't going to respond any further on this thread after Leonard so rudely desecrated what is a very special picture of my son and I together in the field. I say that in all seriousness. But, en lieu of Matt's response, I figured it best to point out that I did tell him that he should choose his words very carefully as this board will do it for him and eat him alive because of them. Then again, he seems to have the right idea about some things.
In any event, if the cure for K is
the cure for Matt must be
.
And THAT is my last word on this subject.
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on June 04, 2006, 05:57 PM:
That's what I get for doing a favor for someone. Blame. I'll probably never learn, as I (also) thought it was funny as hell. Sorry, Lance.
Good hunting. LB
Posted by Cdog911 (Member # 7) on June 04, 2006, 06:20 PM:
No problem, Leonard. I'm just waiting to see who hands Matt his ass first. Damned kids.
Posted by JD (Member # 768) on June 04, 2006, 08:03 PM:
quote:
I'm just waiting to see who hands Matt his ass first.
Anyone could tuck their tail & run........I like him, he`s got fire.
Posted by Rich Higgins (Member # 3) on June 04, 2006, 08:31 PM:
Welcome Matt. ![[Razz]](tongue.gif)
Posted by TREE MY DOG (Member # 731) on June 04, 2006, 09:04 PM:
lance i have known you long enough to know you always have somehing to say. you'll be back
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on June 04, 2006, 09:40 PM:
all will be back, I reckon?
Posted by Rich (Member # 112) on June 05, 2006, 03:51 PM:
TREE MY DOG,
Welcome to the home of the big dogs.
Posted by smithers (Member # 646) on June 05, 2006, 04:41 PM:
AND.......... BOOM, GOES THE DYNAMITE!
did RedRabbit start this thread?
upwind coyote, downwind coyote, crosswind coyote or no wind coyote. beats the hell out of no coyotes at all, any day.
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on June 06, 2006, 10:59 AM:
I'm doing a favor for a former member who wishes to remain monogamous.
quote:
Since you'll probably never learn, please post this photo for me (M-44 Carbine (Russian) 7.62 x 54R, 3 shots @ 50yds, iron sights.).
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v107/Krustyklimber/Stuff/123sNov28_2005.jpg
.....the point of which, is a complete mystery to me?
Good hunting. LB
Posted by Tim Behle (Member # 209) on June 06, 2006, 11:45 AM:
Ya know, Krusty drives me about three quarters nuts on some days. But you just can't help but like the goofy sumbitch.
That picture was the byproduct of vicoden and beer, I didn't mean to offend anyone, but when the wife saw me working on it she made me promise not to post it. So I sent it to Leonard and begged him. I just wish I had gotten the color a little better in Krusty's face before sending it off.
Anyway, I've got a couple of pieces of firewood here by the front door that I've been meaning to send Krusty for a couple of months. I think they are mesquite, but I won't swear to it. I can promise that they both had stickers on them when I cut them. Anyone have his shipping address?
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on June 06, 2006, 02:24 PM:
I just sent it to all three of your email addresses that I have on file.
He says he won't be back but I know he will be lurking, seems kind of drastic?
By the way, you didn't have to rat yourself out.
and, nice gesture!
Good hunting. LB
edit: already got a return from the "river" address. and krusty has also replied. Told ya he will still lurk. But, I think it's temporary? Three quarters is a high number, but seems about right, some days?
[ June 06, 2006, 02:29 PM: Message edited by: Leonard ]
Posted by Rich (Member # 112) on June 06, 2006, 05:46 PM:
.....the point of which, is a complete mystery to me?
Leonard,
It looks like he almost hit the target. I see he hit the paper once. One out of three ain't bad is it?
Posted by Tim Behle (Member # 209) on June 07, 2006, 06:21 AM:
What is it about retired people that they never make the change when sent a "Change of email address" note? I just went though the same thing with my Grandfather's wife not two days ago.
I only have two viable addresses, my home address which ends in vtc.net and my work address which ends in aps.com
You can delete the others.
c2i2 was a good server until they changed their phone number to a long distance prefix. Then I went to mFire, who did the same thing two weeks after I signed up.
Theriver was a good dialup, but broadband became available thought the local phone company. When it works, it's great, but get just a little noise on the line and you are screwed!
Posted by smithers (Member # 646) on June 09, 2006, 03:19 PM:
if i posted a recipe for almond chicken, would it evolve into someone quitting something or someone being offended? seems like it.
some people just have thinner skins than others i suppose.
Posted by Jrbhunter (Member # 459) on June 11, 2006, 07:23 PM:
Vaya Con Dios
UBB.classicTM
6.3.0