quote:

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I almost go off gut feeling?

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There's a lot of truth in that one. That in it self is a big factor in calling coyote.

The should I howl, should we both howl, do I dare make it to that next hump before setting up to call. Do you think it will work? Ya,it'll work. Do you think this will work? Well maybe, but I'm doubtful. Ya, your probably right,let's find another place.

The more experience you have the more weight you can put on those gut feelings.

Dennis
 

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Posted by bigben (Member # 864) on July 20, 2006, 12:01 PM:
 
yeah a buddy of mine says a lot of it is confidence.
 

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Posted by Cdog911 (Member # 7) on July 20, 2006, 02:26 PM:
 
Howling, like time of day, my position relative to where the coyote (probably) is coming from, the date and what my experience tells me is the motivation (if any) for that coyote to respond to my efforts are all examples of many, many variables that I try to mix up each time I go out. Cadence and intensity are two others. The list goes on and on.

This time of the year, I'm mixing distress and howls. One time, I'll start out with a couple howls followed by distress. Next time out, I do a lost puppy howl followed by some ki-yi's, then maybe some rabbit distress, and call from a different position in the morning, versus in the evening. Last time out, I used a new style call I'm making (shameless self promotion) and started with two brief sets of cottontail squeals, followed by a pair of very mournful puppy howls. (Had him circling in less than 7 minutes.) A lot of this is because we're working the same two packs over right now trying to cull as many as possible before they wise up or our luck runs out and we just can't make the mistake of doing the same thing twice. I've found it's a good philosophy to use year-round. I've got nearly 60 calls and four different howlers I use and try to rotate them off my lanyard regularly so I'm always carrying something fresh.
 

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Posted by Tim Behle (Member # 209) on July 20, 2006, 04:20 PM:
 
I very rarely howl first. But then my howler is pretty old and ugly. If I had a new and pretty howler, I'd probably get it out and use it more often.

But for now, I generally only how in response.
 

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Posted by TRnCO (Member # 690) on July 20, 2006, 05:51 PM:
 
As my calling season progresses from late fall into late winter, as does my use of howlers. Since most of the areas I call, see little to no other calling pressure, I start the season off with nearly distress only, with the occasional howler use. Later in the season, when I'm hunting areas that I have been to a couple times already in the season, I then switch over to more howler use, plus it seems that they are more vocal then anyways with breeding season approaching. Seems to work pretty well for me!
 

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Posted by TA17Rem (Member # 794) on July 20, 2006, 06:28 PM:
 
I usually start with the rabbit and if i don't get a response i will then go to a female invatational howl. I like to mix it up alot, maybe one stand just use rabbit or a lone howl, or something different. I also like to keep the howl low keyed earlier in the year, don't want to run any of the pups off with to deep of a howl.
 

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Posted by Rich (Member # 112) on July 20, 2006, 06:38 PM:
 
Tim Behle,
So you need a new and pretty howler huh? I have a couple of small seamless howlers on hand. They look similar to this one only smaller.

 

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Posted by TA17Rem (Member # 794) on July 20, 2006, 07:08 PM:
 
Oh i like that one Rich.
 

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Posted by Rich (Member # 112) on July 21, 2006, 06:15 AM:
 
TA17Rem,
That one is on auction over at P.M. right now, and today is last day of the auction. I am working on a rather large order for www.allpredatorcalls.com right now, so am pretty much tied up. I will try to post photos of the seamless models I have in stock. Maybe I can get that done yet today. My call business has been slow for a couple of months, and now I am flooded with orders. I ain't bitching now mind you, just a little overwhelmed is all.
 

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Posted by Rich (Member # 112) on July 21, 2006, 06:31 AM:
 
Here they are.

 

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Posted by Kokopelli (Member # 633) on July 21, 2006, 07:59 AM:
 
Rich, by 'seamless' are you refering to the reed bridge being part of the horn, or am I missing something?? Thanx.......I still don't understand everything that I know about building calls.

Or calling coyotes.

Or women.
 

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Posted by Rich (Member # 112) on July 21, 2006, 08:53 AM:
 
Kokopelli,
You are correct. The mouthpiece is carved directly into the horn.
 

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Posted by Brad Norman (Member # 234) on July 21, 2006, 08:30 PM:
 
Rich,
Reading this post just reminded me that I told you some time ago that I needed another Taylor Special and then forgot to contact you. My apologies. I now need two of them and will send the check in the mail on Monday.

Just out of curiosity, how many American dollars would one of those purty howlers in the post above run me? Send me and email if you want.
 

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Posted by TA17Rem (Member # 794) on July 21, 2006, 09:55 PM:
 
Rich; those howlers look good. Maybe i take you calling and you bring the howlers i'll bring the 17's. The hair on the back of my neck is standing straight up, can hardly wait for Nov.
 

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Posted by Rich (Member # 112) on July 22, 2006, 04:47 AM:
 
Brad Norman,
I am a few days behind right now, but your order is appreciated. I will get on it some time next week. If you want one of the howlers in the photo for 40.00, just tell me which one and add the fourty bucks to price of your new Taylor specials. Thank you.
 

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Posted by Rich (Member # 112) on July 22, 2006, 04:49 AM:
 
TA17Rem ,
Will a .17 actually work on coyotes? Just kidding.
 

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Posted by browning204 (Member # 821) on July 22, 2006, 09:19 AM:
 
I like using howls, I always start the stand off with a couple of different types of howls. My way of thinking is that I will let them know and try to trigger a response from them. Kinda like tryin to get their ears perked up. then I switch over to distress (sometimes)

I have not been hunting coyotes long enough to give advice and I am not trying to. I have been told by someone that when I hunt long enough that I would find that more are called in with distress than anything, But so far, all the ones that I have called in have been on howls of various types. Including one yesterday!
Agree/ disagree? Please I am always open for pointers...
 

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Posted by TA17Rem (Member # 794) on July 22, 2006, 10:49 AM:
 
I believe that a caller should use the rabbit scream as a primery call and go to a howler as a last resort. I've read more than once where a caller sat down and used more than one type of calling sound, like he started with a howl and then switched to a rabbit and then to a bird in distress. a coyote shows up so the caller thinks the bird in distress is the magic sound where it could have been actually the rabbit or howl that brought the coyote in. A caller should keep it simple if you give him all the sounds in youre arsinal and he comes in and you miss him, he will be alot tougher to call in the next time.
 

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Posted by Cdog911 (Member # 7) on July 22, 2006, 02:22 PM:
 
TA-

Without divulging a very effective technique of one of our key members here (I'll let him do that if he so wishes), I must respectfully disagree with what you said about using too many sounds. I've seen the results when applied properly and the technique works very effectively.

Browning,

My personal experience with howling has proven exactly the opposite of what you've been told, but bear in mind that there are very few guys that use howling where I hunt. When using distress sounds, any nearby coyote will respond and often, they do so alone probably so as not to have to share or fight over the bunny once found. With distress alone, singles are the rule rather than the exception and a double makes for a red letter stand. The response is generally fast with the vast majority of takers showing inside the first five minutes, if not in the first two.

Once I introduce a howl, whether at the beginning of the stand or somewhere in the middle, I see things slow down considerably. Rather than busting in balls to the wall, the coyotes tend to approach with caution, and generally after moving downwind where they meet up with packmates. Since I began using the technique that Higgins taught me, using a good quality howler that sounds truly authentic to me and to them (I hope), it isn't uncommon to see doubles, triples, even quads or more. The biggest bunch I called at one time came in about this time of the year, shoulder to shoulder, right up to me. I had no gun because I wasn't calling to kill, just to play. There were eight of them.

With just distress, I usually set a stand for 10-15 minutes, especially in the early season. That time frame ranges to a half-hour in the late season. With howling, I wait a minimum of twenty, and often as not, the last 5-10 will be in total silence.

Others probably have seen different results, but these are consistent patterns I've seen over the past five years where I hunt.
 

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Posted by Rich (Member # 112) on July 22, 2006, 04:06 PM:
 
I am old and slow. I'm getting closer to the "has been" from Iowa every day. Having said that, I will also tell you this---- I have been there and done that. The most coyotes I called in at once was either five or six. They came like a flock of quail, a whole dang family of coyotes. Not one at a time, but the whole dang family. The call I was using on that stand was an old Johnny Stewart MS-512 and it was playing a rabbit distress of some sort. There will always be the young college boys who try their best to make coyote calling sound like an exact science that requires a degree in coyotology or something. Geeessshhhh!

Guys, it ain't rocket science. Search out an area which has lots of coyotes and very few people. Apply a few basic calling techniques and you will call coyotes. Sweet talk an experienced caller into taking you out with him for a few days. You will learn more during a hunt with guys like Murry Burnham than you can learn in a lifetime on your own. Want to learn about howling up coyotes? Trick someone like Cal Taylor or Scott Huber into taking you out with em for a couple of days.
 

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Posted by Rich Higgins (Member # 3) on July 22, 2006, 06:07 PM:
 
And thank goodness for the college boys that attempt to make UNDERSTANDING the coyote an exact science. Ignorance is the breeding ground of prejudice. Prejudice against a technique or against studying behaviors and communications or exploring new sounds and combinations of new sounds will only steepen your learning curve. Experiment, find out for yourself what sounds and techniques others recommend will work for you in your area. I believe it is as important to know what doesn't work in your area as what does.
Lance, I assume you were referring to me because I always use several different sounds on every stand. I call a Kitchen Sink Stand one that I am absolutely positive that a coyote can hear me and I throw everything that I have, including the kitchen sink, at it. It works often enough that I will try it eveytime I encounter that situation.
Lance observed me use that technique on some pressured coyotes last fall.
I call to the camera more often than the gun and know for a fact that I call the same animals time and again with the same sounds. I believe that presentation has a definite influence on the animals willingness to respond.
I usually begin stands with a nonthreatening howl, simply because the coyotes will approach a strange coyote more cautiously than they will a screaming prey animal. I find that it is easier to position that animal where I want it than a hard charger. Of course later in the season hardchargers are getting few and far between down here and are entertaining as heck.
BTW, I called in 12 to 16 coyotes at one time , altogether, with a lipsqueak.. On our video I called in seven at once, beginning with a nonthreatening lone howl. Their response was cautious but decisive.
 

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Posted by Az-Hunter (Member # 17) on July 22, 2006, 06:36 PM:
 
Ok,now walk me thru a typical stand in which you've decided your going to howl on,or do I infer from you last post, you howl on every stand you make regardless if your going to use distress or not?
We sit down,in an area I know holds coyotes, we settle in, I pull down the headnet,look over at you;from there, what can I expect to hear you use,for how long, at what interval till you decide to move on?
 

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Posted by browning204 (Member # 821) on July 23, 2006, 06:48 AM:
 
thanks cdog, as I said, I am still pretty new at this and I trust my source of info! I just saw the thread and thought I would reply. Maybe as I hunt more and more, I will find that howls or distress work or don't. But In my hunts and the Couple of coyotes that I did call and actually saw, it seemed to be on howls. But I will say that one I shot at the other day, the stand started off with whitetail fawn distress and then I went to howls. after the sounds stopped for a couple of minutes, it came out. It did howl (weird) before coming out SO thats why I said the howls got him.
 

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Posted by TheHuntedOne (Member # 623) on July 23, 2006, 08:17 AM:
 
Well, my take on Browning204's post, since I was with him, is a bit different.

First Mike, go back and read what Lance wrote,

quote:

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Once I introduce a howl, whether at the beginning of the stand or somewhere in the middle, I see things slow down considerably. Rather than busting in balls to the wall, the coyotes tend to approach with caution, and generally after moving downwind where they meet up with packmates.

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quote:

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With howling, I wait a minimum of twenty, and often as not, the last 5-10 will be in total silence.

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Now think about our stand Friday Morning.

Distress calls for about 10 minutes. No takers. Then you used the howles (we were using an E caller) After about 5 minutes of that, we got up and stood there for about 5 minutes deciding on where to go next. We were being pretty quiet, and what happened? We heard a howl, and then the coyote stepped out of the wood line in the corner of the field, down wind of us, and stood there, it's body language was more cautious than anything. It paced a bit, but it stayed out on the edge of the field long enough for you to put everything down, set up your shooting sticks and get a shot off.

I think the lesson we might have learned here, from the coyote and from Lance's post, is that we should have sat still longer after the howles.

We also learned that even though these coyotes were in pretty close proximity to people, they were infact pretty isolated in the area they choose to live. To access them from the north one would have to cross a pretty good sized swamp, and to access them from the south, the hike in, as you saw, was well over a mile. From the east it would be the same, but through some pretty thick and tough cover. From the west, it would be a good two mile walk, normally with the wind blowing right to them.

So, we learned that we should maybe sit a bit longer after howling, and that we should start to concentrate on finding more areas that are isolated from a lot of human activity right in the middle of all that human activity.

Anyway, that's my take on it.

Oh yeah, we also leaned that you need more practice time at the range

Al
THO Game Calls

Edited for some spelling. If I hadn't wasted my youth huntiing, I might have got a better education.

[ July 23, 2006, 08:27 AM: Message edited by: TheHuntedOne ]
 

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Posted by keekee (Member # 465) on July 23, 2006, 08:50 AM:
 
Mixing sounds on a stand is something I do as well. Kind of like Rich, if I know there are coyotes there I may give them several sounds and howls to get a responce. It just depends on the area and the stand set up.

Like Lance, I also may just howl on a stand, and I maybe on a stand for 45 min or more at times, and sometime during the stand there will be no calls made for 10 min or so.

Brent
 

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Posted by TA17Rem (Member # 794) on July 23, 2006, 09:10 AM:
 
Cdog911; Yes if i know there is a coyote hanging up, i will try different sounds also to get him to come in, but other than that i keep it simple on most of my stands. I have had coyotes come in and hang up and i would turn the caller back on and then they would start comeing in again ,as soon as i turned it off they would stop again, i would just leave the caller on then and they would charge right in makeing for some fast and furris action. When they do that they really get my heart pumping.

[ July 23, 2006, 09:16 AM: Message edited by: TA17Rem ]
 

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Posted by Cdog911 (Member # 7) on July 23, 2006, 10:21 AM:
 
Nothing wrong with your technique, TA. That's the way you have found to work for you, and mine is the way I have seen work better. Whack it with a big stick until there is nothing left but the brass tacks and what you have left is two guys that call differently and that's a better thing in the long run. The guys that all sound alike only hurt themselves by being easily identifiable.

As far as being quiet, IMO one of the best mid-set or end-set sounds that can be used, especially on a stand where you haven't used vocalizations, is dead silence. Always nice to see a sneaky-snake coming in under the radar hoping to find crumbs without confrontation.
 

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Posted by Greenside (Member # 10) on July 23, 2006, 02:11 PM:
 
Cdog

quote:

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My personal experience with howling has proven exactly the opposite of what you've been told, but bear in mind that there are very few guys that use howling where I hunt. When using distress sounds, any nearby coyote will respond and often, they do so alone probably so as not to have to share or fight over the bunny once found. With distress alone, singles are the rule rather than the exception and a double makes for a red letter stand. The response is generally fast with the vast majority of takers showing inside the first five minutes, if not in the first two.

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quote:

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I still start lot of my stand with howls, Lonehowls or lost puupy howls. But its hard to explain? I almost go off gut feeling? Some stands I howl to start some I howl to finish. But almost all my stands have some kind of coyote vocals even if its just puppy wines or distress.

Brent

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Thats exactly what i do...Play the Gut!
 

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Posted by Jrbhunter (Member # 459) on July 24, 2006, 07:46 PM:
 
My experience closely resembles Dennis's with one difference in phylosophy... I hunt all year long and as the productivity of that technique drops I change it up until something works consistantly. I do not allow "My way" to interrupt doing what works- I pad the ego bruised by not knowing everything by going home with blood on the tailgate.

The concept of being a coyote is something I work from in many ways, but as recently as the past three weeks I've seen that begin to have a negative impact on my number of callups. Adjusting my style I've managed to call 6 in the last 6 stands... last night was an insanely exciting hunt but oddly enough ended up depending on aggressive vocals to get a pint-sized pup in range.

Like my pa' always said... for the upteenth time... you can do it right or you can do it your way. Doesn't matter to me.
 

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Posted by PAyotehunter (Member # 764) on July 25, 2006, 06:19 PM:
 
I'm a nobody so take this for what its worth.
I feel a calling style is dictated by your location and its coyote population. Sure anything could work anywhere occasionally. The K.I.S.S theory has been working for me.

BigBen,
You have been around for a while now and met and talked with alot of predator hunters in PA. By now you should have a good idea who is real and who is full of air. Talk to them keep an open mind and listen closely. I'm not saying disregard what your reading here, but use what you learn from successful coyote hunters in your area and add what YOU think sounds good or makes sense and give it hell. You already made the right step in talking with Dave Dunbar. He is probably the most knowledgeable guy on coyote behavior and calling in PA.
 

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Posted by Rich (Member # 112) on July 26, 2006, 07:07 PM:
 
"Ok,now walk me thru a typical stand in which you've decided your going to howl on,or do I infer from you last post, you howl on every stand you make regardless if your going to use distress or not?
We sit down,in an area I know holds coyotes, we settle in, I pull down the headnet,look over at you;from there, what can I expect to hear you use,for how long, at what interval till you decide to move on?"
_______________
Vic,
I'm thinking that Rich H. starts out with two hoots and a quack. After three minutes of silence,he throws the kitchen sink just as far as he can.
 

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Posted by J_hun (Member # 872) on August 01, 2006, 01:58 PM:
 
I believe and have confidence in howling,so I generally start out with a howl. If I get a response and the coyote is a long ways out, I will answer one time and that is all. Just wait. If I get one to howl close I don't do anything except get ready. Simple as that. Once in awhile you'll get one to sit out there and yap and carry on and then I'll yap right back at him. If I don't get a response, I'll go to the distress calls, and I don't overdo it. I think some guys put too much into there howling or distress calls. Just my two cents.
 

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Posted by Rich Higgins (Member # 3) on August 02, 2006, 07:07 AM:
 
Welcome Jerry. Glad to see you here.
 

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