This is topic Howling 101 in forum Predator forum at The New Huntmastersbbs!.


To visit this topic, use this URL:
https://www.huntmastersbbs.com/cgi-bin/cgi-ubb/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=1;t=000789
Posted by TOM64 (Member # 561) on July 26, 2006, 07:54 PM:
 
What books or videos do you reccomend on howling?

I know I've asked and gotten tips in the past, but after the last couple of years it seems I'm getting worse at knowing when to howl and which howl to use. Maybe a refresher course on the basics as which howl and what time of year or why?

When I first started trying to howl, I did actualy call in a few but I guess I stepped on my "hoo haw" and now usually get no response or they answer but get further and further away, so back to basics.
 
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on July 26, 2006, 09:07 PM:
 
Are you hunting a lot of land, or continuously making rounds in the same places? A little howling goes a long ways. Easy on the agressive howls unless you get challenged.

Good hunting. LB
 
Posted by Greenside (Member # 10) on July 27, 2006, 05:11 AM:
 
Tom, If you still have a cassette player, You might try the the Sceery, Crit'r Call or the Austin instructional tapes. Sceerys' has quite abit of actual coyote recordings on it.

All those guys know(knew) how to howl coyote.

Dennis
 
Posted by TOM64 (Member # 561) on July 27, 2006, 05:39 AM:
 
Leonard, you may have nailed it right there. I did hunt a ranch (2500 acres) quite a bit because it was close to home. Always called and killed coyotes with distress calls on it because I knew it so well (used to work on it) but I also worked on my howling there more than any other place.

I start with an interrogation howl, if no answer in 5 minutes or so I start calling with a distress call. If I do get an answer I try to repeat what they do but I try not to be too aggressive. I have a Crit'r call song dong and an ELK power howler, I may try to get a Cronk howler but I know it's not the howlers I'm using, simply the person trying to use them.

Dennis, I have Ed Sceery's video on howling and I think I'll get the tape for the Song dog caller, I have the manual that came with the call but I have a hard time reading what something is supposed to sound like.

Thanks guys.
 
Posted by Greenside (Member # 10) on July 27, 2006, 06:41 AM:
 
Tom do you think that a coyote can hear a howl from two miles away? Well probably not a elk power howler but a good cow horn or oil funnel type?

If they can, wouldn't your interrogation howl be heard in an area of up to 10,000 acres(+\-) depending on terrain?
I'm not sure where I'm going with this, but I think that is one of the reasons why you're hearing the distance howls. I think Wiley posted that the farther the coyote are from you ,the more likely you'll get a vocal response. That's at least my ezperience from a locating stand point?
 
Posted by TOM64 (Member # 561) on July 27, 2006, 08:34 AM:
 
I can hear a coyote howl at a mile so yes I think a coyote can hear me at at least twice that, an interesting thought.

Let me give you a situation that happened last January and maybe it will explain my trouble.
Me and my partner were hunting a contest, before sunup we heard a couple howling from opposite sides of the ranch. We snuck in about a half mile and set up on the coyote that was on top of a hill about 400 yards from him. My thinking was if I howled he would wonder what I was doing in his terrority and come to investigate. He answered my lonesome howl with a challenge howl or at least what I thought was, I challenged back but not as aggressive as his, 2 minutes or so later he challenged again but from further away. We thought we kept out of sight and had the wind in our favor and I don't think my howling is too bad but this is what usually happens. Did that make sense?

I'm beginning to think in my area I may be better off ditching the howler. Another thing I very seldom hear them howl after sunrise or before sunset.
 
Posted by Rich (Member # 112) on July 27, 2006, 08:38 AM:
 
TOM64,
I think we will all learn more by talking about your howling problems right here on this board than I have seen on any video or in any book. I know that my own idea's concerning the howling issue has changed somewhat. I think we need to be careful when we try to label this howl or that. Only the coyote knows for sure what he means when he howls. I have come to believe that the best all around howl to use when calling coyotes to the gun is a "lonesome" sounding howl. I used to advocate answering a challenge or bark/howl by trying your best to imitate what the coyote just said. Now I'm not so sure about that. Not saying I NEVER do that anymore, but I do that quite a bit less. Answering the challenge with your "lonesome", or other non-agressive howl may be a better plan. Now in regard to your distress crys that you mention, are you using the same old rabbit distress that you were using in that area for awhile? I think that when working pressured coyotes, we need to use tunes that they haven't been hearing so many times that they can hum it. Pup squeals come to mind. Pup squeals are a double whammy because it not only shocks the maternal instinct, but is also a prey distress cry which triggers the easy meal syndrome.
 
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on July 27, 2006, 08:42 AM:
 
In rereading, I think it bears mention that a vocal response is not necessary, if you are hunting coyotes, rather than attempting to locate coyotes. I almost never use howls to locate, any more than I would use distress to locate. I'm more inclined to locate by sign and habitat, but there is no doubt that a vocal response says there is a coyote... right there! The problem is, how many coyotes heard the howl and didn't respond? It's a little like dropping a baited hook in front of a school of fish. They don't always bite, some bite sometimes and some never bite. Change bait.

Good hunting. LB
 
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on July 27, 2006, 08:51 AM:
 
I didn't see either reply before I posted, Tom. But, you cannot discount territorial boundaries, when you believe that a coyote is not coming in to your sounds. Some folks dispute this, but I think silence is better than replies. Replies mean that your coyote may be content to stay put and answer you, rather than close the distance. Now, a guy like Scott Huber will go get them where they are, not wait for them to come to him. Personally, I don't like to get that far from my truck, but it is effective, if you are on foot. Quinton Wagoner hunts that way, even if he isn't howling, he hunts on foot, working into bedding areas, etc.

Good hunting. LB
 
Posted by bigben (Member # 864) on July 27, 2006, 09:50 AM:
 
interesting reading. who here uses a siren to locate?
 
Posted by TOM64 (Member # 561) on July 27, 2006, 10:26 AM:
 
Rich, I agree about learning more here than any book or video. I labeled my howls based on Ed Sceery's video and could be very wrong on my interpitations. As for distress, pup cries are my favorite but I do use the rabbit blues as well as trying a few bird sounds that are starting to work for me. I'll classify myself as a decent caller but I suck at howling. While I always try to pick up everything I can on calling, howling itself just plain escapes me, I can never say to myself, ok I've got that down let's go onto something else.
 
Posted by Greenside (Member # 10) on July 27, 2006, 10:41 AM:
 
I agree with you on that Leonard, I think unless you're really close, vocal coyote are less likely to come than non-vocal. I tend to also agree with Rich that sometimes just single howls or standard lone howls might be a better response to challenge howls.

I have some experience with challenging back challenge howls that pretty much resulted in nothing more than shouting matches with the outcome that nothing shows. I think coyotes(some) can and will try to bluff you and they want you to show yourself before they commit.

I maybe shouldn't say this but I have had some success with a challenge howl as a primary call. In the past I've located coyote and have gone in a couple hours afterwards and challenged and have brought in the hole nine yards(get in their face). Maybe worth trying a couple times in late summer. BTW: I don't do this often more or less on that "gut" feeling.

Dennis
 
Posted by UTcaller (Member # 8) on July 27, 2006, 11:16 AM:
 
Ed Sceery's "Howling for Coyotes" is one of the best videos available as far as Instruction goes.Not much action,but very informitive.Good Hunting Chad
 
Posted by Lonny (Member # 19) on July 27, 2006, 11:17 AM:
 
Tom, When you did have success howling was it multiple coyotes or older coyotes that you called in?
 
Posted by Rich (Member # 112) on July 27, 2006, 12:13 PM:
 
TOM64,
I can't remember the title of the Sceery video I saw on howling. The Sceery video I did see, led me to believe that Ed Sceery felt pretty strongly that a howl was a howl was a howl. He played what sounded to me like the same howl over and over about three or four times. He stood there with a grin, while he placed a certain label on each howl. (same howl, different label). Even though I recall feeling sort of dismayed at the time, I now realize that Ed was just as correct as a howling pioneer or two that claimed to know coyote language.

I am glad that Leonard pointed out the territorial issue. He is dead right on that. Coyotes are very unlikely to cross it's boundary line to come kick a stranger's arse. Leonard is also correct in regard to the vocal answer deal. Coyotes often come in silent when answering a howl, which is why I almost never locate with a howler anymore. You say you suck at howling. You also mention being successful a few times by howling. I am betting that your howls are just fine. Some of the worst howls I ever heard came from real coyotes.
 
Posted by TOM64 (Member # 561) on July 27, 2006, 03:17 PM:
 
Lonny, the first one I called in by howling alone was a young one but I had to go to it due to it getting dark and wound up meeting it halfway. I can remember one triple coming out to the edge of a field still out of range but for the most part I "talk" with them and run out of daylight. Not enough success to go by. I have started stands with a howl then switched to distress sounds but can't and won't say my howling brought them in.

Leonard, paitence, silence, faith and when to use each are things I need to work on.

Rich, I'm glad I'm not the only one who couldn't tell much difference in some of those howls. I did listen to some of your sound clips you've posted in the past and am gonna get one of your howlers with instructions, in fact e-mail me how much and where to send my money when you get time and I'll just do that, thanks.

Guy's this is exactly what I'm looking for, keep the tips coming please.
 
Posted by smithers (Member # 646) on July 27, 2006, 04:07 PM:
 
whether they came in to the distress or the howl is neither here nor there. the fact that they showed is the key. if a howl and then a distress brought them in then that is what i'd go with. you can't argue with results.
my theory is that a howl isn't likely to scare them away, so what's it hurt to do it?
 
Posted by Kokopelli (Member # 633) on July 27, 2006, 07:08 PM:
 
Quote; 'So what's it hurt to do it?

Answer; Bobcats.

I seldom howl for fear of hanging up a 'cat. Anybody have any insight on this??
 
Posted by smithers (Member # 646) on July 27, 2006, 08:17 PM:
 
the original intent of the post was about howling for coyotes not calling bobcat. so it wouldn't hurt to howl if you are targeting coyotes.

i don't have to worry about any bobs showing up 'cause they are all waaaaay north of me. i've had fox show up after an initial howl and then a distress a bit later.
 
Posted by Tim Behle (Member # 209) on July 27, 2006, 09:05 PM:
 
I've killed far more bobcats on a coyote stand, than I have while calling a "Bobcat stand" That's the big reason I don't often howl first.

If a coyote howls and seems hung up, I'll respond, other than that, I mostly just use a distress sound.
 
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on July 27, 2006, 09:49 PM:
 
quote:
so what's it hurt to do it?
only if you use an aggressive howl. And, if you are right in the middle of coyotes, a howl is more counter productive, in my view, than distress sounds.

I don't think howling, in general, will scare a cat. Figure like this, they overlap territories, and coyotes howl a lot. I don't think a bobcat is very intimidated by a howl, no more so than another coyote would be.....

Good hunting. LB
 
Posted by Kokopelli (Member # 633) on July 28, 2006, 04:16 AM:
 
Leonard, I can go along with a bobcat not being intimidated by howls, but do you think that one would respond to distress sounds coming from a howl location?? Seems like if one did come in it would hang up looking the area over until it forgot what it was there for.

Smithers, I meant no disrespect there a couple posts back. Hope it wasn't taken as such. It's just that a 20$ coyote will buy gas to get to town; where-as a 200$ bobcat will buy a very intense table dance when you get there. Man, I love the West!!

Interesting about the fox. A few years ago I was hunting with a freind and his brand new Fox-Pro. At the 10 minute mark we had a Grey Fox coming in just out of shotgun range, unknown to my partner who had to play with his new toy and switch to a howl. That fox did a 180 sooooo fast that it ran right up it's own a$$. All we found was a little 'O' ring laying on the ground.
 
Posted by Cdog911 (Member # 7) on July 28, 2006, 04:31 AM:
 
quote:
Seems like if one did come in it would hang up looking the area over until it forgot what it was there for.
From the 'cats I've seen, I think a guy could pretty much give up the ten or fifteen seconds it takes for a bobcat to forget what he was doing to reap the benefits of howling. LOL Caller running, cat comes in. Caller stops, 'cat stops. Sometimes I think even 'possums look at bobcats and think, "How dumb is that!?!" [Smile]
 
Posted by Tim Behle (Member # 209) on July 28, 2006, 05:38 AM:
 
That Kokopelli is a plumb smart feller, I gotta agree with every word he wrote!
 
Posted by TRnCO (Member # 690) on July 28, 2006, 06:05 AM:
 
I don't have much bobcat experience, BUT I'd like to share what my buddy experienced last year on this subject.
My buddy was calling, used no coyote vocals, distress only, and some where in the middle of the set, a coyote started talkin', SO my buddy decided to start talkin' back with some coyote vocals of his choice, this went on for several minutes, my buddy said it sounded like the coyote was in a place that he should be able to see the it, but he never did get his eyes on it, and then, the camara man who was sitting just a few feet behind, signaled that there was something coming and was close by lip squeeking, so my buddy slowly started looking around only to see a bobcat about 15 yards from them! SO, at least in this instance, the bobcat wasn't scared at all by howls!!
Then on another occasion, while using distress only, my buddy had a bobcat coming at about 100 yards, when out of know where comes two coyotes charging in and the coyote actually spotted the cat and commence to chase it and tree it, before they continued into the set!!
And one other time, while in N.E. KS. callin', I had a cat coming in and then had two coyotes charge in, spot the cat, and they chased the cat right out of sight, and we never got any of them called back in!! On that set, we were using distress only!!
Maybe these instances were flukes!! But it goes to show that nothing in the calling world is as black and white as we'd all like to think sometimes!!
 
Posted by smithers (Member # 646) on July 28, 2006, 09:22 AM:
 
Kokopelli, no offense taken. It takes a lot to upset this apple cart.
For the most part I only howl from the middle of January to March. The reason being is that there are a lot of fox in the areas I call. I enjoy calling them in as much as I do coyotes. The one fox responding after using a howl was one of a kind and he responded after a good ten minutes of silence after my initial howl. The distress is what got him, I believe. Maybe he was a voyeur and didn’t see any coyote near the squeals and approached cautiously as ever. What i love is that the response of the predator, whether bobcat, fox or coyote is to the gnarly wails of a dying whatever. But once they are committed you can change to lip squeaks and they will not break stride. It seems they would become suspicious of the sudden sound change and turn tail but they never do. Not in my experience atleast. most times they are more excited to get to the lip squeaks than they were to the initial distress sounds.

[ July 28, 2006, 09:27 AM: Message edited by: smithers ]
 
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on July 28, 2006, 09:43 AM:
 
smithers, nothing against you, but I need to comment on a certain trait; kinda like an incurable "lane changer" on the Freeway.

Namely; I have all these sounds available, and I intend to use them.

Regardless that my animal is coming to the call on a string. Maybe you have not seen it yet, but there will come a time when you will queer a responder by switching sounds, needlessly.

No offense, Amigo.

Good hunting. LB
 
Posted by smithers (Member # 646) on July 28, 2006, 12:12 PM:
 
LB, i agree. i try to keep things basic. i am not an all-in kinda guy.
bird distress, something is in pain (SIP), lone and invitation howls and lip squeaks are the sounds i usually stick with. sometimes it gets hard when you've gone thru 15 stands w/out a response to hold back but most times i can. i lip squeak when they get somewhat close just because, in my experience, it perks them up and keeps them coming. the times that they have floored it the opposite direction, i don't think had anything to do with sound change. i think it had more to do with Right Guard Sport overload. only calling in a limited amount per year doesn't give me a wide sample but i stick with what has worked thus far.

the incurable lane changer always gets me cause two lights or a slow down later i am right back with them.
 
Posted by dog243 (Member # 911) on July 28, 2006, 03:38 PM:
 
Some have question's about howling because of Bobcat's, or Foxe's in your hunting area. If you watch Randy Anderson's New Truth lll, you will see both of these predators coming to howl's.
 
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on July 28, 2006, 07:12 PM:
 
Welcome to the New Huntmasters, dog243. Glad to have you on board.

I don't have to watch Randy's video to know that; like when he was still in grade school?

Good hunting. LB
 
Posted by dog243 (Member # 911) on July 29, 2006, 10:19 AM:
 
Leonard, I was using Randy's video for something that Kokopell, and Smithers could check out, as both had issues on howling because of Bobcat's or Fox's in their hunting area.

Most of the video's on coyote hunting do nothing but entertain me, as the area's just are not the same as here in the east(rightside USA) and our coyote's are more shy and timid, and most do not respond to, calling from the wood's, into open field's.
 
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on July 29, 2006, 10:31 AM:
 
That's okay, dog.

I understand, I was just being petty. Cats are so visual. Contrary to what people might think, coyote howls would drive them right out of the country, but it doesn't work like that.

I actually feel a little pity for those of us that can't hunt out west.

Good hunting. LB
 
Posted by Kokopelli (Member # 633) on July 29, 2006, 12:05 PM:
 
Ok,.....'Randy Anderson's New Truth 111'. I'll pick up a copy & check it out. Thanx!!
 
Posted by J_hun (Member # 872) on August 01, 2006, 01:48 PM:
 
I do not believe cats are bothered by howls. The last cat we shot which was a 31lb Tom came in after I had howled and was shot by my partner. Did he come to the howl? Who knows. I followed the howl with a distress call so can't say for sure if he came to the call. One thing I can say is the howl did not spook him.
 
Posted by Rich (Member # 112) on August 01, 2006, 02:22 PM:
 
"I do not believe cats are bothered by howls. The last cat we shot which was a 31lb Tom came in after I had howled and was shot by my partner."
----------------
Jerry,
Why did your partner shoot you? Did you have a broke leg or something? [Big Grin]
 
Posted by J_hun (Member # 872) on August 01, 2006, 07:41 PM:
 
Rich, I have a way of mixing up words once in awhile. Sounds like I did get shot. I know my partner felt like shooting me last year in one of the contest we were in. It was the last stand of the day and I got one in about 150yds. I missed him,and I don't know who was madder , me or my partner,. That took us out of the money. You know I got a story that goes along with that. There was a foot of snow on the ground and when we tried to drive through a gate we had just opened,we got stuck. We dug and rocked the truck back and forth for about 15 minutes before we got out. It was getting late and we drove up to the first draw which was about a half mile off the road. With all the noise we had just made it didn't scare that coyote out of the draw. I still got him in with a howl.
 
Posted by Rich Higgins (Member # 3) on August 03, 2006, 09:08 PM:
 
I target coyotes specifically and I howl on just about every stand. We have quite a bit of video of both fox and cats that came to distress after we had howled. I will say that the fox approach the stand with caution, kinda like the coyotes do, rather than run over the top of us. That's not a bad thing. [Smile]
 




Powered by Infopop Corporation
UBB.classicTM 6.3.0