The New Huntmastersbbs!: How often do you call the same stand?

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Posted by Rich Higgins (Member # 3) on September 21, 2006, 08:52 PM:

This was the where Tyler and Rich made their first stand of the contest hunt on Saturday and brought in two coyotes. On the way back to camp that evening they made the last stand of the day in the same place and called in a coyote. The pic is of the first stand Sunday morning in the same place and they brought in a coyote.

This was a four year old male that snuck in
like a cat. He would sneak up to a bush and look through it for a while then sneak to a closer one and look through it. Made for good video.
The coyote is still slicked out in it's summer pelage.

Posted by Rich Higgins (Member # 3) on September 21, 2006, 08:54 PM:

Rich reminds me of Q. Looks like him too. Shoots like him too. [Smile]

Posted by Cdog911 (Member # 7) on September 22, 2006, 04:46 AM:

For most of the time I've been calling, I've always made it a rule not to overcall a particular stand location. Maybe once every week or less, especially if I make a shot while there.

Then, this year, we were especially careful about not only entering the site, but leaving with as much caution and stealth, even if we didn't get a shot. I am convinced that coyotes set up beyond our line of site (but well within theirs) and recon the situation before committing. By waiting a while in silence before rising and leaving to dissassociate the sounds and calling with our presence, then leaving quietly and without being seen, I hoped to create circumstances where we could call the same coyotes again and again without tipping our hand. Early results look successful, since we called and killed four coyotes at one spot and six at another, never taking more than one at a time. In the case of the four, they were a litter I'd seen earlier in the season, all uniquely marked exactly alike. In some cases, individuals were called and killed on consecutive days from the same set up.

As a rule, though, I call same locales about once every week or so, but that's more a matter of how my days off are scheduled rather than by strategic design.

Posted by Andy L (Member # 642) on September 22, 2006, 06:05 AM:

It all depends. I got a couple places I call everytime I get close to them. Dont matter if I was just there the day before or earlier in the day. They are kinda unique, I guess you would say. Seem to get alot of coyotes coming to those places from all over. They are turkey houses. Lots of turkeys die in turkey houses and the compost, dead pile is pretty big outside of them. Especially when it gets real cold or lots of snow, those get extremely popular with coyotes. Good place to call nearby.

Posted by Rich Higgins (Member # 3) on September 22, 2006, 06:54 AM:

Sure, no hard and fast rules. We call an area until it no longer produces, then give it a rest and kinda hope all the other callers do also. However the same stand giving up coyotes three times in 24 hours is pushing the limits for us.

Andy, I'm surprised that the turkey houses are still allowed to dump the birds in dead piles. Tyson had several big chicken operations in Arkansas and they dumped offal and carcasses in the hollows near the houses. Huge smelly dumps. Big white chickens that had escaped were common in the area as well. As you can imagine it attracted a huge pot pourri of predators and scavangers including coyotes, feral dogs, red wolves and the biologists that studied them.

Posted by Greenside (Member # 10) on September 22, 2006, 07:43 AM:

quote:
I am convinced that coyotes set up beyond our line of site (but well within theirs) and recon the situation before committing.

Huh?

Dennis

Posted by NASA (Member # 177) on September 22, 2006, 08:12 AM:

He meant "sight" not site.

Posted by Jrbhunter (Member # 459) on September 22, 2006, 08:56 AM:

Lance thinks coyotes come to a call until they can see the sound source, then stop and survey the situation before commiting a plan of attack. Right Lance?

If so, I disagree. Strongly.

I'll call a stand pretty regularly until it doesn't produce... kill what you see and don't expect the getaways to visit you again in the near future regaurdless.

Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on September 22, 2006, 09:08 AM:

quote:

If so, I disagree. Strongly. Jrbhunter

You know, I might have said the same, until I hunted western Kansas and extreme eastern Colorado. But, (with a little luck) I saw them respond just as he described. I don't know what to think, except that some of the locals are hurting the hunting with their behavior?

Good hunting. LB

[ September 22, 2006, 09:09 AM: Message edited by: Leonard ]

Posted by TA17Rem (Member # 794) on September 22, 2006, 09:17 AM:

When i call in a pair and only shoot one, i will come back in a day or so and use a lost mate howl and get the other. I hunt mostly on the open praries and i can see for a long ways, like Lance was saying a coyote well come in to 300-400 yds and look the situation over, if he dosen't like it he will leave. This would happen alot untill i started useing field glasses and then i could pick them out. Most of the time all i see is the head. When i spot them i then try a howl or go to a squeaker. It takes a little longer to get them them in close enough for a shot.

Posted by Rich Higgins (Member # 3) on September 22, 2006, 09:55 AM:

quote:
Lance thinks coyotes come to a call until they can see the sound source, then stop and survey the situation before commiting a plan of attack. Right Lance?

Lance is absolutely correct. Very pressured coyotes won't even expose themselves for a line of sight visual. They will go as far downwind as they need to without exposing themseves in order to learn everything that their nose can tell them. GPS animations have made me go back to square one in my thinking

Posted by JD (Member # 768) on September 22, 2006, 10:07 AM:

Lance is spot on with his post & as Leonard pointed out once you hunt coyotes in the heartland you`ll see some different behaviors than you might expect....not always of course but a good share of the time. Maybe it`s due to the visibility in these flat regions & the fact that most "coyote hunters" (I`m using that title very loosely) in these areas arent afraid to rest the rifle across the window & mirror & proceed to empty the magazine on any coyote less than 600 yds away & then haul ass to the next mile road to cut them off & do it again. That sort of pressure MUST have an effect on their behavior.

If there`s one thing I do know it`s that you can`t hunt coyotes in PA. or AZ. & expect ALL of those techniques & behaviors to be identical everywhere in the country. As far as "getaways" are concerned it certainly makes sense to move on & forget about them but then again I`ve had them come back to the call within 45 min. before & I know it was the same coyotes because I watched them the whole time from my vantage point.

Not to derail this thread but these coyotes that hang up far out & watch for a while are where the dogs can really be an asset in this area.

Personally I used to give an area a rest for several days up to a couple weeks depending on the situation but anymore it really depends more on my mood & schedule than anything else, I quit using formulas for success quite some time ago, now I just go out & enjoy the hunt & the dogs working & just being outdoors in general. I`m more succesful & it`s a hell of a lot more fun too.

Posted by JD (Member # 768) on September 22, 2006, 10:12 AM:

Rich, we must`ve been typing at the same time, tell me about GPS animations, I`m not quite sure what you mean about going back to square one.

Posted by Jrbhunter (Member # 459) on September 22, 2006, 10:40 AM:

I tend to believe they put themselves in a situation where they can pinpoint the soundsource... not necessarily see it. Once they THINK they know where it's coming from, using a soundcone and sound deflection, they begin concerning themselves with wind. Sometimes this is at a safe distance, other times it's not... they can't calculate the ballistics and accuracy of a rifle so their approach is pot luck. Especially against electronic callers.

Cover- yes. They'll use any structure available and any lighting issues to their advantage. That's just part of reading a setup- not necessarily a life saver on their part. A coyote that is wise enough to stop for prolonged periods of time is rarely going to be killed in my area (Unless he's vocal). Especially if he's stopping in the hunters blind spot- not knowing when to "Turn them up" is a major handicap when dealing with a coyote THAT slick. I try not to give them that luxury but as with anything, there are always variables and exceptions.

I killed over 20 coyotes in one small field last winter. Surrounded by thousands of acres of forest. Given the chance I believe many of those late arrivals (#12-13-14-ect) would've acted as you've outlined... but why let them? If coyotes acted that way as a rule we'd rarely kill one in the heavy timber.

I hunt a stretch that covers over 330 mile north/south in Indiana. This includes regions of rugged terrain with 90% timber and other areas of rowcropped pancake ground that see frigid temps with lake effect snow. In Indiana, I haven't witnessed that behavior in any substantial way.

I don't strongly disagree with Lance's experiences... only a blanket statement folks may apply on Midwestern coyotes. Much like I don't my experiences are gosphel, we all approach a coyote differently and he reacts accordingly.

Posted by JD (Member # 768) on September 22, 2006, 11:25 AM:

quote:
Given the chance I believe many of those late arrivals (#12-13-14-ect) would've acted as you've outlined... but why let them?

I`m not sure how you plan on "not letting them" stop & look around from 600yds away.

quote:
If coyotes acted that way as a rule we'd rarely kill one in the heavy timber.

Not a lot of "heavy" timber in the areas that Lance & I are calling. However I can drive an hour or so & be in the forest & I`ve watched the same behavior there when calling from a hilltop when the ground is covered with snow, only they aren`t 600 yds away if they`re pressured they`ll be whatever distance they feel is safe.

Lance said....."coyotes set up beyond our line of site (but well within theirs)" ....I`ve witnessed this enough over the years that I can say with conviction that it`s a correct assumption much of the time around here. The advantage I have over some places is the ability to set a caller in a valley & set on top of a hill next to a cedar & be able to see for long distances over adjoining flat pastures & fields & creek beds & observe their behavior as they come in.

I`m not sure I`m following your story on the 20 coyotes killed in one field, according to your reference to the latecomers it seems to put it into the context of 20 coyotes killed on one stand!?!?

Posted by Rich Higgins (Member # 3) on September 22, 2006, 02:36 PM:

quote:
they can't calculate the ballistics and accuracy of a rifle so their approach is pot luck. Especially against electronic callers.

Why especially electronics?

Posted by Rich Higgins (Member # 3) on September 22, 2006, 02:43 PM:

quote:
I tend to believe they put themselves in a situation where they can pinpoint the soundsource... not necessarily see it.

It is believed that a coyotes bilateral audio receptors can accurately pinpoint the origin of a sound to within 3 minutes of angle. Unless something is interferring with that reception it would seem logical that a coyote repositions itself to either get a visual or a scent of the source. I cannot think of any coyote that has approached a stand that was not looking hard or sniffing hard.

Posted by Rich Higgins (Member # 3) on September 22, 2006, 02:51 PM:

Tyler attributes a good part of their success on this hunt to the fox squalls that he produced on this RR call made for him by Bearmanric. Two coyotes showed themselves immediately after he used it so the call became a regular on his kitchen sink stands.

Posted by Andy L (Member # 642) on September 22, 2006, 02:55 PM:

Rich,
There are still composte piles of dead turkeys. We have tons of turkey barns around here. Good places to call around. I have found whole and parts of dead turkeys literally miles from the nearest barn. They haul them quite a ways sometimes.

Posted by Cdog911 (Member # 7) on September 22, 2006, 03:38 PM:

Jason,

I, like you, operated pretty much with the impression that you describe. Coyotes approach from what they think is a good angle and come in unfettered. Then, I hunted the wide open spaces out west. Luckily, I was with Q who has bionic vision and can pick out a coyote at way the hell out enough that it's frustrating as hell when you're like me and conditioned to function within the context of 300 yards. Here's what I observed.

Howl a few times, maybe even get so far as to be calling with distress. Be looking way out there because on several occasions, we would see not one but as many as six coyotes appear and group up out there (beyond my line of si(gh)t but well within theirs). They would him-haw around a bit; some would sit while others would pace. But, invariably, one would peel off and make the approach. And die.

The survivors would simply stand and lope off, seemingly indifferent to the entire proceedings. And when hunting with Quinton, that's when you hit your feet and go after them.

My lesson was simple: Could my coyotes here in Kansas be doing the same thing? And, if so, how can I best counter that behavior?

Simply, yes. I believe they are. I use as lot of howling and am convinced that most of my responses are part of packs - whoever may be close enough to make the scene - because I see a lot of multiple responses. Now, my local coyotes may not be setting up at 1K yards like I've seen in NE and CO, but they don't have to. Like in your timberlands, they have the advantage of vertical structure to conceal their approach and it's well accepted by hunters that call that type of terrain that they'll use that cover.

The point I was making is that our calling becomes extremely difficult around Christmas time. Responses dwindle to a fraction of what they were before that time. It's not because there is a sudden decline in numbers, but because of hunting pressure. To counter this paranoia, we chose this past season to wrap up each stand with a brief period of silence, then rise and sneak out as carefully as we went in. I am convinced that the ones left behind - the ones on that distant hillside, unnoticed by the callers - see many guys get up, claim their dead critter, start talking, back slapping and attaboys and very quickly learn to associate the entire sequence of events with human presence.

At the very worst, being that careful doesn't hurt a bit. At the very best, it kept several spots producing time after time this season which is something we'd never observed before to that extent.

Now, having said that, the techniques and style of calling I use tends to target older, more experienced coyotes more so than young of the year pups. I would expect young coyotes to come in as you describe. Older coyotes, on the other hand, would be expected to exhibit the type of cautious behavior that allowed them to become older coyotes in the first place. The ones I kill run the entire age scale. Often, someone will challenge an assertion someone makes as a "blanket statement" with the belief that all blanket statements are inherently false and flawed. In most cases, I agree. In this case, I know what I've seen, I know how making adjustments to our methodology here prompted marked improvements in our response rates over the course of a year, and I think I'll stand by what I posted. [Smile]

Posted by Jrbhunter (Member # 459) on September 22, 2006, 08:13 PM:

Higgins- The ecaller exibits no movement and a miniature scent cone- that's why I believe coyotes are at more of a disadvantage when trying to "Pick one out" (Visual/Scent) as opposed to a man working a handcall. Also, I didn't mean to imply a coyote would come in without looking or sniffing the whole way... only that a coyote patient enough to stop and stand around researching a potentially life altering situation is going to be a very low percentage kill. Especially if the caller is a spectator and feels no control over the speed/angle an incoming coyote is taking.

Lance it sounds like you are working with animals that behave differently than mine. In the northern country we have a line of sight similar to what you mentioned... on occasion we've watched pairs come a mile and cross a couple county roads only to die at 60 yards. Very-very rarely do we see more than 2 in a group. Again- just different behavior for different regions I suppose?

Our calling success slows mid November thru mid January... I attribute some of that to all the other sportsmen afield, not necessarily calling pressure as I've never seen another caller in this state outside of Wal*Marts and trapping conventions. I'd venture to say the age of the coyotes we kill are mixed pretty evenly. Sitting on stand a while after calling may be a fine idea, I just have it in my head that there's another easier coyote somewhere else that I could be killing with that time. So long as I have uncalled farms in my platbook at the end of each season it's hard to justify sitting around.

To clarify my statement about coyotes that getaway from a stand; I wouldn't hunt an area immediately after a kill just because there was another one with it that got away. If the area holds enough coyotes to substantiate another stand I'll make it... but one streak of fur after a kill doesn't rate another visit for me. I definately hang with a stand after a kill, even after bumping coyotes off a field- but I don't plan my day around such situations. You've got to deal with the cards you're dealt- everyones a winner and everyones a loser.

That's just me- but I'm certainly not as experienced or succesful as some of you guys. Maybe my coyotes are exactly like yours and I'm just too dense to understand them. I'm open minded enough to believe that.

Posted by Brad Norman (Member # 234) on September 22, 2006, 08:52 PM:

If I call a spot that I believe should have produced a response in the morning, I have no problem going back that same afternoon and calling it again. I have done this many times and been lucky enough to kill a coyote while sitting in the exact same spot I had called from that morning. I always thought that they had simply not been there when I called them earlier.

Higgins-I'm very interested in the GPS animations you mentioned. If I had read this post a little more comprehensivley I probably would have figured it out. Could you please explain what you are talking about a little more in detail? Thanks.

Posted by JD (Member # 768) on September 22, 2006, 09:08 PM:

quote:
If I call a spot that I believe should have produced a response in the morning, I have no problem going back that same afternoon and calling it again. I have done this many times and been lucky enough to kill a coyote while sitting in the exact same spot I had called from that morning. I always thought that they had simply not been there when I called them earlier.

Very good point Brad, I do the same thing from time to time.

Posted by Cdog911 (Member # 7) on September 23, 2006, 05:53 AM:

Jason,

I don't think we disagree on many points of behavior with the coyote. I regard your interpretation of your coyote's behavior as being quite accurate. Hope you didn't take my comments othewise. It's the conditions under which we call that differ.

I'm of the school that a coyote isn't necessarily a coyote is a coyote... Local factors influence their behavior, although their behavioral infrastructure is somewhat consistent from region to region. For years, I have insisted that the coyotes in my region can be more difficult to coerce into responding, with the reason being summed up in two simple words: dog wagons. If you've never called coyotes in an area where hunting them using greyhounds is far and away more common than any other means, you probably would not understand the impact that wagons have on coyotes. Combine that with the fact that Kansas' actual huntable acreage is a very, very small percentage of the total land mass (somebody has to feed all you guys), you understand that a lot of sportsmen are concentrated on a relatively small land mass where everyone takes their pot shots at coyotes while hunting everything from deer to pheasants and quail, going to church, grade school field trips, etc. (Never understand why someone would blow a perfectly good deer stand because they can't control the urge to shoot at a mangy old coyote.) By Christmas (if not Thanksgiving in some areas), coyotes are being displaced by hunters 3-4 days a week if not more. Every one of those instances results in a butt full o' birdshot and quickly, they become nocturnal and wary as hell. Like Rich said, often the only thing you might see of a coyote is the top third of their head when you see a pair of pointy ears along a crestline at a distance. Calling one across a mile of open countryside and two county roads is something you'll never see here after October. I know it happens because I've seen it elsewhere. Just not here.

I may bitch and moan about how hard my coyotes are to call, but as you said, it's the hand I've been dealt. This is where I was born and raised, it's where I learned to call, where I work and where my family has called home for five or six generations that I know of. If I was to choose a new address based solely on callable coyotes, this sure as hell wouldn't be it. LOL But, two years ago, I tried to convince my wife to let me accept a lateral transfer at work to Scott's Bluff, Nebraska so I could be in the kind of country that Q hunts in. Strangely enough, her earlier stance that, "Where ever you are is home for me" changed to, "Hell no! You said there isn't anything up there but f-in' cows, coyotes and Q and I don't want to live where there's nothing for me to do, too!" Personally, I think she's still a bit flexible and I may get her convinced yet. [Wink]

Posted by stevecriner (Member # 892) on September 23, 2006, 06:22 AM:

I hunt a paticular area also until it does not produce. Here where i am at in missouri i am somewhat limited to land i can hunt and visit certain spots frequently. Ive called the same area the same day and been sucessful and many night after stands that have been sucessful. But i also hunt what looks like the perfect stand several times and dont call in any coyotes. I dont hunt very many coyotes with virgin ears or have not had there ass shot at from the road time after time. Keep up the good replies. This is a good oprutunity for some of us to learn a little more than we knew yesterday. And plus with my problem with remembering stuff i can come back and read it again.

Posted by Greenside (Member # 10) on September 23, 2006, 06:34 AM:

Steve

quote:
I hunt a paticular area also until it does not produce.

How many times would you have to walk out skunked before you determine that it's not producing?

Dennis

Posted by Rich Higgins (Member # 3) on September 23, 2006, 07:17 AM:

Hi Brad.
The GPS animations I referred to were downloaded from the GPS collars that were recovered from 26 coyotes on the INL study area by Dr Jaeger and his students. The collars had been worn by the coyotes for 6 weeks and were interrogated by the satellite every 5 minutes 24/7. After recovery the info in each collar was downloaded into a computer which then produced a timecoded animation on a map grid of each coyotes movements over that time period. Dr. Jaeger sent me a CD of those animations for the 3 days that I called coyotes with him at the INL. The results were mind-boggling to me. I re-evaluated what I believed to be "normal" behavior for pressured coyotes. That is what I meant by going back to square one.

Posted by Rich Higgins (Member # 3) on September 23, 2006, 07:46 AM:

Dennis, I know you asked the question of Steve, but I'll toss you my 2cents if you don't mind.
I used to hunt coyotes in the Bolivar area where Steve lives. Very tough hunting compared to western states, plain and simple. All private land. I would sometimes have to drive for several hours to get to and from a farm where I had permission to call or had asked me to remove a coyote. That is why I would make three stands in a 40 acre wood patch over the course of an entire morning. And I would go back until I did get a coyote, regardless how many stands it took. Around my home I had permission on several good size ranches, but still may only make 5 or 6 stands in a day because of distances that I had to drive and walk to reach them. Since they were the only game in town I called them repeatedly even though some rarely produced.
Out here where I have virtually unlimited calling oportunities, I still have "honey holes" that have a history of giving up coyotes on a regular basis. As the season and pressure progress they will produce less often. Even if the stands are dry several times in a row I will still stop and call them as I pass them on my circuit of that area. I know that the area is attractive to coyotes and turn over (exploitation) is high and I will soon be calling to a coyote that can't resist checking out the sounds. There is a valley an hours drive to the east that used to be a really dynamite producer and good enough for an entire days calling. The last two times I was in there I did poorly. I haven't called there in two years because an hours drive in a slightly different direction will put me in an area that still produces well. So how many times I will walk out skunked before I determine it is not producing depends on it's proximity to consistant producers and whether it is worth my time to reach it.

Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on September 23, 2006, 07:53 AM:

Higgins, those results (edit: GPS animations) are questionable, and I think you know why? You cannot diddle with a population of coyotes and document the results, and suggest that it applies to anything more than THAT population. All obvious factors, such as driving a certain vehicle in the restricted confines, chasing the animals with helicopters, capturing and tagging them. Shadowing them, the rest of the time. The coyotes are conditioned to their environment, and that particular environment is not representative. Maybe the studies are meaningful, and maybe not?

Good hunting. LB

[ September 23, 2006, 07:56 AM: Message edited by: Leonard ]

Posted by Brad Norman (Member # 234) on September 23, 2006, 10:55 AM:

Thanks Higgins. Did Dr. Jaeger or any of his students do a paper on the study? If so, I would like to read it.

Posted by Lonny (Member # 19) on September 23, 2006, 12:17 PM:

Rich, Have you read the behavioural study of coyote home range on the INEL site by John W. Laundre? If you have, how was it? Thanks

[ September 23, 2006, 12:17 PM: Message edited by: Lonny ]

Posted by stevecriner (Member # 892) on September 23, 2006, 01:36 PM:

Dennis,
I guess im kinda short when i write because sometimes i dont even get what im trying to say.

I hunt an area, I guess you could say " heavily" until it dont produce as much. Ive got some spots that i hunt every week frequently and they produce and i have some spots that i dont hunt as much. I do have some spots that i will like Rich said." stop and call while driving by."

But i dont stop everytime i drive by thats for sure. Some spots i have witnessed just dry up. Some due to calling pressure,some to drive by shooting, and some due to Lahma's.(farmers answer to coyotes)

It dont take me long of being skunked to leave it alone because i figure i will just overhunt another area and by the time i wear somthing else out it will be ready again. Its all about the area im in. Private land almost exclusivly!

Anyone. If im not viewing this correctly please chime in. Im all about getting better at calling coyotes.

Posted by Andy L (Member # 642) on September 23, 2006, 02:27 PM:

quote:
Ive called the same area the same day and been sucessful and many night after stands that have been sucessful.

Steve, I guess I dont get the meaning of this statement. Are you hunting at night too? If so, please let me know how your getting away with it. I have wanted to for a long time....

Posted by R.Shaw (Member # 73) on September 23, 2006, 02:37 PM:

Andy, I think Steve means the day after or just the very next day.

Night calling is possible in MO. Full moon, snow cover, and hand calls only.

Randy

Posted by Andy L (Member # 642) on September 23, 2006, 02:52 PM:

Yeah, Ive done that Randy. Just how often do you get a moonlit night with a snow on in MO? Usually can count them on one hand, in a good year. The last couple years, none..... You can bet your bottom dollar where I am found when the conditions are right though. [Wink]

I used to call fox at night when I was a kid. Actually didnt know you could call during the day. I knew the older guys that were taking me were braking the law, but I didnt know any better. It was productive, very productive. Thats why I was asking Steve if I was missing something.

Posted by stevecriner (Member # 892) on September 24, 2006, 04:22 AM:

Sometimes due to my work i have to hunt evenings. I should of said the evening after. No night hunting here unless the snows on.

Posted by Rich Higgins (Member # 3) on September 24, 2006, 08:14 AM:

quote:
Higgins, those results (edit: GPS animations) are questionable, and I think you know why? You cannot diddle with a population of coyotes and document the results, and suggest that it applies to anything more than THAT population.

Leonard, EVERY opinion and deduction about coyotes is questionable.
However, I do believe that the results of some studies can explain the behavior of other coyotes in other areas. The GPS animations revealed the reactions of PRESSURED coyotes to howls and distress calls in Idaho. You observed the very same behavior in PRESSURED coyotes in Kansas and Colorado. I see it weekly in Az.
I give that behavior a lot of thought and adapt my stand selection and calling technique to accomodate. In some small measure it is working out for us. Tyler and partner set up and called accordingly two weeks ago and and just about tripled the best results of their competition. A past Top Caller of the Year winner hunted the same area as Tyler and using his traditional techniques called in nothing over the two day hunt. (as an aside, the sixty some year old gentleman approached twenty year old Tyler and asked to go calling with him. He said he would like Tyler to teach him how to call coyotes. He said he was serious. lol I would have done the same.)
I am convinced that I see (actually don't see) the very same behavior in all PRESSURED coyotes in every area and every state that I call in and so does every other caller as the season progresses. The animations reveal what we can only occassionally see with our own eyes in wide open country and will never see in heavy cover.

Posted by Tim Behle (Member # 209) on September 24, 2006, 10:45 AM:

Rich,

You seem to be assuming that most people have heard the first part of that conversation, instead of walking into the middle or end of it.

What behavior is it that you give a lot of thought to, and how do you set up accordingly?

Posted by Rich Higgins (Member # 3) on September 24, 2006, 11:13 AM:

Tim, I was referring to Leonard's last post, 8 posts up.

Posted by Tim Behle (Member # 209) on September 24, 2006, 12:49 PM:

So if you were going on a two day hunt, and you were going to spend one day in an area that has light to moderate hunting pressure, how would you differ your technique to the second area, which you know has heavy pressure from hunters?

From looking at the GPS on those collared coyotes, how did those coyotes in the study respond to calls? Did they come out into the open? Did they circle? How close did they get to the caller, did they come in to investigate later?

Posted by NASA (Member # 177) on September 24, 2006, 02:31 PM:

Rich, did you also keep an activity chart of yourown activities and movements for your 3 days in the field? I would think you'd need your timing data to match up with the GPS timing data to establish which activities prompted which response(s). If you have that coordinated data I believe you have the root data for another valuable instructional video.
As you've already pointed out, this is not how coyotes always respond, but rather how they are capable of responding in a given situation. Good stuff, and it's already paying off for Tyler.

Posted by Rich Higgins (Member # 3) on September 24, 2006, 09:15 PM:

[/QUOTE] So if you were going on a two day hunt, and you were going to spend one day in an area that has light to moderate hunting pressure, how would you differ your technique to the second area, which you know has heavy pressure from hunters?[/QUOTE]
Tim, we would conduct the stands in the first area as we always have, pretty much the way you do, except we pay close attention to the wind and set up on it.
The second area would be a little slower. We would set up along washes and ridges and heavy cover that a coyote can use to get downwind of the caller. The caller positions himself on the upwind side of the cover/wash/ and the shooter positions himself so that he has an elevated view down into the cover/wash straight downwind from the caller. Usually the shooter is out of sight of the caller and as much as 100 yards and even more from the caller. We have set up on ladders looking down into washes with only a 4 or 5 foot open area. You have to stay alert for long periods in order to stop a coyote in that short space. The stands are much longer also since a coyote will sneak in like a cat.

[/QUOTE] From looking at the GPS on those collared coyotes, how did those coyotes in the study respond to calls? Did they come out into the open? Did they circle? How close did they get to the caller, did they come in to investigate later? [/QUOTE]
THe first stand of the first day two coyotes , an alpha male and an alpha female came to the call. The male came straight in across a meadow. He came close enough to step on my left boot. The female came in from a different direction and remained hidden until she was within feet of me. The pics that I have posted of the collared coyote was that male. He also is shown in the video UC&P.
All of the other coyotes immediately ran toward the downwind as soon as they heard the call of howls. They used the cover and never exposed themselves. One female ran at top speed 3/4 of a mile to get downwind where she remained until we ended the stand. She then continued at top speed until she made a complete 360 from her den around us and back to her den again, all at top speed for a total distance of about 2 1/2 miles. I set up the stands upwind from the largest meadows in close proximity to the coyotes location. They ran as far as they had to back in heavy cover, to get downwind where they would remain until the stand was over. One alpha male followed the truck as we left his territory and ffollowed us across the adjacent territory and into the third. The biologists were surprised that he would cross another packs territory in the middle of the day just to keep tabs on us.
The coyotes came in several hours later and investigated the call site. I used mist on each stand and sprayed the bushes where I sat. That would keep their attention for awhile.

NASA, we each kept complete notes of each stand. At the start of each stand Mike Ebbinger took a GPS fix and a second one at the conclusion for a timecode. The animations depict four color codes for the lines . Red lines are alpha males, blue are alpha females, white are beta males ( No beta females responded) and black are we humans.

Posted by Rick Anderson (Member # 973) on October 02, 2006, 01:17 AM:

Rich,
You've written some of the best stuff I have read on the internet as far as call setups. In AZ would you do the same as you state in the desert; in the forested areas, and the open grassland areas? How would you setup for downwind in grasslands with no thick cover available?
Some areas we call that get alot of pressure we will leave a shooter at the setup, especially if there is barking, after the call. The rest of us will go to the truck and leave. We will come back in 15 minutes or so. Many times the shooter will get shots at coyotes coming around checking things out. I feel they know what was going on but had to check it out after they saw us leave. Have you ever tried this?
Thanks for all the great information,
Rick

Posted by Rich Higgins (Member # 3) on October 02, 2006, 08:08 AM:

[QUOTE] Rich,
In AZ would you do the same as you state in the desert; in the forested areas, and the open grassland areas?

Sure, Rick. I always pay close attention to wind and cover and terrain contour that can hide a coyote's approach, regardless. Of course at times coyotes come running in without regard to either, but that is becoming less frequent every year.

How would you setup for downwind in grasslands with no thick cover available?

I set the camera or rifle facing the direction that I expect the coyote to approach from, but I always keep an eye on downwind. If there is a break or contour downwind that the coyotes can use to approach unseen we will set a shooter on the back side of that. I use a net and and in flat areas with little or no cover I will lie prone with the net over me. A net will let me become a rock or bush or something unknown that is not an immediate source of danger. Here is a good example.

Tyler took that pic of me videoing Brent Rueb on a hunt in Kansas last year. You don't have to disappear. You just can't be human.(I like cows and other stock. Great confidence boosting visuals for the coyotes)

Some areas we call that get alot of pressure we will leave a shooter at the setup, especially if there is barking, after the call. The rest of us will go to the truck and leave. We will come back in 15 minutes or so. Many times the shooter will get shots at coyotes coming around checking things out. I feel they know what was going on but had to check it out after they saw us leave. Have you ever tried this?

Rick we do use that technique when we have the time. I've posted in the past here that in MO in heavy cover I would make a short noisy stand, howls and distress, squirt the place down with mist and then leave, moving to a distant, elevated area with my 22-250 AI. They will come in spend a lot of time investigating the smells and hiking their leg on every bush the mist touches. Many times I would just sit quietly for as much as an hour enjoying being outside, listening to the birds and squirrels fussing at a coyote talking it's time sneaking in to investigate.
I also posted pics on this board from a video that I taped of a short stand where I set a camera up covering me and the stand location. I howled and did some prey distress and left with the camera running until the tape ran out. Later at home I ran the tape and captured stills of the three coyotes that came in and investigated at, I believe , 13 minutes, 19 minutes and 22 minutes after I left.
I didn't post this but later while watching the clip again I saw two coyotes that came in within 10- 15 feet of me, on the other side of the bush I was tucked into and I never saw them. Have to wonder how often that happens?

Posted by Rich (Member # 112) on October 02, 2006, 04:36 PM:

Rich Higgins,
Very good information you have posted in this thread. I have been there and done that enough times to know that you are speaking the truth here.

Hey Leonard,
Do you have a way to make this thread a sticky? It would be a shame to allow this much good information to get lost.

Posted by stevecriner (Member # 892) on October 02, 2006, 07:43 PM:

quote:
Rick we do use that technique when we have the time.

I see. But do you think the coyote is waiting for the intruder to leave or is just takeing longer to come in. Like maybe they are hearing sounds indicating the exit of hunters. This is a very unique tactic i am intrested in ,Rich. We have spoken on the phone about me " loving to call over hunted coyotes". Its kinda what im after. This might just be an intresting stand to get on camera for sure. And misting? Is this a must in this situation..... Maybe Mist and then the shooter move a few yards in direct view of the abandoned stand for a clear shot? I can see were there could be many variables to this tactic. Talk more about this please.

I got to get some Mist"

Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on October 02, 2006, 09:52 PM:

Steve, there are no hard answers, but I have seen a coyote come in, after hanging up for a long period of time often enough, that I consider it to be a very predictable behavior. That is not to say it is the most common behavior, but it is rather routine, if you get into the right position to observe it.

For me, there are others to hunt, so I only see it almost by accident, even with cats. In other words, I may pick up and leave a stand, go down the road to another stand, turn around and ambush a coyote inspecting the exact spot where I made the previous stand. They may have seen you leave, decide the coast is clear, but never suspect that you may return in thirty minutes, or so? This is quite common in Nevada, because most mountain roads wind up at a mine and there is nothing else to do but turn around and go back down. I have killed many bobcat standing in the road on the way down 30-60 minutes after making a stand in the same spot. I have even killed badgers checking things out, under the same conditions. This is old news. It is one of the things that you can expect when you pull up stakes, if circumstances are favorable. Is it a better solution than just making a stand in a different place? That's up to you to decide. But be aware of it, because it will happen on a certain percentage of stands. The majority take a powder, but a significant number of animals will deliberately approach a stand where they know you were and they can easily catch your scent. My opinion is that they see you leave and realize that the coast is clear.

Good hunting. LB

Posted by Andy L (Member # 642) on October 02, 2006, 10:56 PM:

Rich, thats good stuff. Thanks.

Posted by stevecriner (Member # 892) on October 03, 2006, 07:04 PM:

Yes i know that there are probably more coyotes to hunt and i agree wih you just hunting others. I didnt realize that a coyote would do this and it intrigues me. Ive heard so many times that if a coyote see you your done, but this brings a new light," He might just be getting started". This just might be something that i might want to spend time to witness and even film as Rich did. There are so many things to learn. And its kinda neat that they do this routinly

Posted by Rick Anderson (Member # 973) on October 03, 2006, 08:31 PM:

Steve,
This behavior was first observed by me over 30 years ago. One stand we would always call the coyotes would start barking as soon as we would start calling. This was when I was not very tuned into their behavior and when they started barking we realized we were busted and would leave. It was a 1/4 hike uphill back to the truck and one time a looked back and saw a coyote moving towards our setup and thats why we started leaving a hunter there after the call ended.
Looking back I think our success was on young dogs and the older ones always kept away.
Mr. Higgins if you read this the area was Peeples Valley just south of Skull Valley. This area produces alot of bobcats and coyotes for us.
Rick

Posted by Rich Higgins (Member # 3) on October 03, 2006, 08:52 PM:

Rick, we hunt Peeples occassionally. We call javelina there as well. BTW we will be hunting Coolidge area on the contest hunt this weekend.

Posted by Rick Anderson (Member # 973) on October 03, 2006, 11:37 PM:

Rich, Who are we? When are you going down there? I should be in Coolidge this weekend. I own a restaurant down there. If you have time Email me with your phone number, I would like to talk to you.

Rick
kfcpage@cableone.net

[ October 03, 2006, 11:47 PM: Message edited by: Rick Anderson ]

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