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Posted by Cdog911 (Member # 7) on February 19, 2007, 01:48 PM:
 
I hear we have a problem. In order to adequately assess the severity of this problem, I've decided to start a thread. Each day, I will update here to let you know how many phone calls and contacts I have regarding the coyote problems in and around the four counties where I hunt. Things ought to be intersting since many of my landowners are currently in the late part of their calving and the one sheep producer I drive by regularly has a buttload of little lambs running around. Apparantly, I'm going to be very busy.

This week, we sent out thank you cards to our landowners - all 68 of them, covering 58,000 acres in four counties - thanking them for their willingness to let us hunt on their land, and reminding them that they can call us at anytime should they have problems with coyotes and that we'll come out on our dime, free of charge, and do what we can. These guys represent a cross section of Kansas agriproduction; some of them are row crops only, some are mixed operations running cattle and crops, and three of them are sheep producers.

In the past three years, we're batting 1.000 on handling those complaints received to the landowner's satisfaction. Prior to that, I went ten years without a call. Things are getting serious.

To help start things off, I'll retroactively post the numbers of the past week:

Monday, February 12 to Monday, February 19 - 0.

Maybe I'll get a call tomorrow.
 

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Posted by TRnCO (Member # 690) on February 19, 2007, 04:00 PM:
 
SO curious, do the guys that have "row crops only" just hate coyotes, or are they attempting to save thier corn crops?
 

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Posted by Dan Carey (Member # 987) on February 19, 2007, 04:26 PM:
 
Do they really grow corn in Texas?
 

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Posted by Cdog911 (Member # 7) on February 19, 2007, 05:44 PM:
 
I don't know anyone that hates coyotes. A few guys are mildly intolerant of them but as long as they aren't causing any problems, they are fine with them. Even enjoy seeing them once in a while.

Still by the phones - land line and cell both. No calls yet, but ever hopeful.

Dan,

I'm in Kansas - the first Abilene. Those Texas boys already know they have a problem for sure. I'm just now collecting the necessary data to confirm or refute if we have one that we just don't know about. Yet. And I suppose that someone in TX knows how to grow corn. But, I'm sure there are those that would argue the point.

[ February 19, 2007, 05:46 PM: Message edited by: Cdog911 ]
 

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Posted by Wiley E (Member # 108) on February 19, 2007, 07:11 PM:
 
Cdog: "In the past three years, we're batting 1.000 on handling those complaints received to the landowner's satisfaction."

Wasn't long ago you were crying in your beer about how hard coyotes were to call in your area and you even presented your percentages on your low degree of success and now you are batting 1.000 on handling complaints???

As far as having a predation problem, you must not have much of a problem if you can kill such a low percentage of coyotes and solve the problem. For your sake, I hope you can get your stories straight.

Which way is it Lance? Do you kill a low percent on your stands or are you batting 1.000 on handling complaints? Which story are you going to stick with?

~SH~

[ February 19, 2007, 07:12 PM: Message edited by: Wiley E ]
 

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Posted by Cdog911 (Member # 7) on February 19, 2007, 08:24 PM:
 

quote:

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As far as having a predation problem, you must not have much of a problem

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Damn! I think you've got it.

Just so you understand, Scott, I'm looking at my numbers right now. End of the year figures...

246 stands called in 41 days in the field since Nov 1, 5,400 miles on the old odometer getting there and back.

74 coyotes called, 28 killed.

I use a technique I learned from Higgins and see many multiples and generally am able to get one from the bunch. This year, I had several instances where I called 4 and 5 coyotes at a time. Because this isn't open range country like you enjoy, you generally get one shot and the survivors are six feet to heavy cover. Most of my shots are within fifty yards. Rarely over a hundred.

The only complaint I entertained this year was in August and we killed five coyotes in that section, three after the problem seemed to be resolved. Those last three were just mop up because the owner asked us to. So yes, we have very few problems. Got that? And that problem was fixed.

Last year, I had three problems. Fixed all three.

The year before that, two. Both fixed.

Hard coyotes to call? Yep. Still stand by that.

Had a friend of yours here in January. Let him do the calling. Saw? 0 Killed? Less than that. He's the eighth good caller I've seen do that around here. A week later, I went to the Flint Hills east of me and we saw 4, one called. I was doing the calling. Always glad to see the experts fall flat on their faces calling my "excuses".

During the same period, the dog wagons I hunt around killed 35 and 28 coyotes respectively, that week, across my hunting area. Not so much an excuse as a fact of life around here.

Tune in tomorrow. Maybe I'll get a call!!!
 

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Posted by Wiley E (Member # 108) on February 20, 2007, 08:24 AM:
 
Cdog: "Damn! I think you've got it."

You think you are going to teach me something about coyote predation? LOL!

Ain't you the tomcat?

Cdog: "The only complaint I entertained this year was in August and we killed five coyotes in that section, three after the problem seemed to be resolved. Those last three were just mop up because the owner asked us to. So yes, we have very few problems. Got that? And that problem was fixed."

And that is supposed to be an indication of coyote predation in Kansas?

First, your experiences apply to where you live and are certainly not representative of other areas in Kansas which MAY OR MAY NOT BE the same.

Second, your knowledge of predation is based solely on what you receive for calls and who you talk to. You don't know what goes on in other areas of your state and it's questionable whether your phone calls and conversations are indicative of what's going on in your area.

Many times I have found calves that were killed by coyotes that ranchers were unaware of because they were too busy calving and just figured the calf was lost in weather and the coyotes cleaned it up. The hooves and the fact that the cow was nursed indicated otherwise.

You want to argue both sides of this Lance. On one hand you want to suggest that there is no predation problems and on the other hand, you want to argue that you are taking care of the problem and there is no need for predator control. Well if there was no predation, there's nothing to take care of is there?

By your own statistics, you only killed coyotes on 11% of your stands and only killed 38% of the coyotes you call and you think that is going to stop predation? If my calling statistics were that poor, I'd quit. If I can't consistantly call coyotes on 50% of my stands and kill 50% of the coyotes I see that I have access to, I'm disatisfied. Perhaps you should learn how to locate your coyotes before you call a stand rather than calling just because you think a certain place looks good or if you are locating them, you better learn to call them. Another testimony to your lack of experience yet you think you're qualified to tell others how to do it.

Most of the predation complaints you receive are on cattlemen right? The window of calf predation is very small before calves become too much for coyotes to handle. When calling cattlemen outside of that window, you are not doing anything to reduce predation.

Whether or not cattlemen have problems on calf predation depends on the geography of the area and whether calves are being born out in pastures or next to buildings and near roads. It also depends on the coyote population of the area and when these calves are being dropped in relation to denning. No two areas or situations are the same so it's grossly misleading to suggest that recreational callers can take care of calf predation problems.

As far as sheep problems, most of the range lambing operations are gone so you certainly aren't helping anyone with sheep by only killing 38% of the coyotes you call next to a farm flock that is tight to the buildings in August. Who do you think you're kidding?

Based on you there is no need for predator control in your area which could be a result of many factors so why try to pretend that you are some kind of substitute for an ADC program WHEN, ACCORDING TO YOU, THERE'S NO NEED FOR ONE?

Cdog: "Had a friend of yours here in January. Let him do the calling. Saw? 0 Killed? Less than that. He's the eighth good caller I've seen do that around here."

Maybe you don't have any coyotes where you called. Did you ever think of going to a place WITH COYOTES?

Instead of your continual excuses for your lack of success perhaps you should find an area with coyotes.

Cdog: "Always glad to see the experts fall flat on their faces calling my "excuses"."

Why? You bring experts into an area without coyotes so that you can justify your miserable percentages?

If you had any confidence in your abilities, you'd enter St. Francis instead of writing about those that do.

My problem with you is that you act like you know so much more than you actually do, which is obvious to anyone with experience, by writing about others techniques then you come up with all kinds of excuses for your lack of sucess WHILE SUPPOSEDLY TEACHING OTHERS HOW TO DO IT!

You learn a new technique from someone like Rich Higgins then you write about it before you've even had a chance to apply it and that's why I don't give much credence to anything you say.

~SH~
 

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Posted by Cdog911 (Member # 7) on February 20, 2007, 11:52 AM:
 
Since I'm only home for a few minutes, I'll make this brief. I've got to work for a living.

Your comments demonstrate your ignorance, Scott. Good try at spinning the facts, but if the calls and e-mails I received after our most recent dust up before this one are any indication, I again submit that your comments speak to your character.

BTW, just for the record, upon receiving that complaint this summer and killing the five, we called six. That's a kill rate of 83.5% when not just hunting for fun. And the one that got away was over 300 yards away and went back over the hill as soon as I killed the one that came in with him. Can you do better? Hot dog. LOL

No calls so far today guys, but I've got the wife by the phone. Just in case.

[ February 20, 2007, 11:53 AM: Message edited by: Cdog911 ]
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on February 20, 2007, 03:18 PM:
 
Got a "hot line", eh?
 

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Posted by Tim Behle (Member # 209) on February 20, 2007, 03:40 PM:
 
Scott,

In your honest opinion, if Wildlife services shut it's doors tonight, and Ranchers had to start paying the full bill for a private ADC contractor out of their own pocket starting tomorrow.

How long do you think it would take before the Predator problems in Western States, where Wildlife services is currently active, to drop off to the same levels as those to the East where there are no Government hunters, trappers or airplanes?

These Ranchers hire Government hunters, because they get subsidized on the cost of the hunting. If these guys had to pay the full bill out of their own pocket, just like the guys back East do now, their problem would go away just as fast.
 

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Posted by Rich (Member # 112) on February 20, 2007, 03:51 PM:
 
"These Ranchers hire Government hunters, because they get subsidized on the cost of the hunting. If these guys had to pay the full bill out of their own pocket, just like the guys back East do now, their problem would go away just as fast."
===============================
Interesting thought. I always believed that Government ADC programs were funded by the tax payers. All tax payers I mean, not just sheep and cattle growers. ?
 

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Posted by coyotehombre (Member # 1161) on February 20, 2007, 04:23 PM:
 
Cdogg 911 are you a professional ADC guy?? I mean if you get a call for a problem and you kill the adults are you gonna follow through and find the den and euthanize the pups or leave them to dehydrate and starve?
 

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Posted by Tim Behle (Member # 209) on February 20, 2007, 04:34 PM:
 
coyotehombre,

Is there a difference in dead?

How do you recommend getting those pups out of the hole to kill them?

Besides, you still have three months to wait before you will find any pups in the hole.

Rich, I hear these Ranchers around here whining about having to pay part of the cost, maybe they don't have to pay any of it in other areas?
 

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Posted by Cdog911 (Member # 7) on February 20, 2007, 04:35 PM:
 
Yep. I'm even thinking about hooking it up to the lamp so the light will start flashing when it rings. Started carrying my cell phone in a brief case like the President's "football". LOL

Now that I'm back from another hard day waiting for that football to ring, I can take a few minutes to respond to some of Scott's remarks. I hate to do it here because it'll only muddy the rapidly growing numbers on this project and make it harder for the rest of you to cipher the results.

"You think you are going to teach me something about coyote predation? LOL!"

Actually, no. I've never pretended to match you on your knowledge of coyotes and coyote hunting. Then again, I don't work coyotes for a living and in that sense, I doubt you're up to speed on advanced cardiac life support protocols or can tell me the first thing about federal laws as they apply to the handling of your mail. Having said that, I do believe that someone should, or maybe can teach you a little respect and manners. You've got issues.

"First, your experiences apply to where you live and are certainly not representative of other areas in Kansas which MAY OR MAY NOT BE the same."

You're right. They do. As for the rest of the state of Kansas, that's the rest of the state of Kansas' problem. My generous offer extends only to those nice people that let me on their ground or are willing to this upcoming season. In this region where everything is leased up for deer hunting, access is a true commodity.

"your knowledge of predation is based solely on what you receive for calls and who you talk to. You don't know what goes on in other areas of your state and it's questionable whether your phone calls and conversations are indicative of what's going on in your area."

Right again. My landowners are only aware of those things they are aware of. If yours are aware of things they are not already aware of, I am truly impressed.

"The hooves and the fact that the cow was nursed indicated otherwise."

Even being a slack-jawed, mouth-breathin' redneck, I know a chapped nose and not smooth as a baby's ass hooves look like. Have assessed dead calves that coyotes supposed killed on several occasions and ruled out depredation versus scavenging. Bob Henderson taught me that. Not a new concept.

"You want to argue both sides of this Lance. On one hand you want to suggest that there is no predation problems and on the other hand, you want to argue that you are taking care of the problem and there is no need for predator control. Well if there was no predation, there's nothing to take care of is there?"

No. I want to argue the point that the so-called problem is not of the extent that you seem to want to convince the readers it is. On a case by case basis, when a depredation incident occurs, if I get a call, I respond and do my best to help the producer. So far, admittedly, I have been lucky. If and when those numbers increase, I;'m sure there will be those coyotes beyond my experience. I tell the producers up front that I am not a professional ADC man, just a guy that does a lot of calling, and that I'll do my best. They're perfectly fine with that.

"By your own statistics, you only killed coyotes on 11% of your stands and only killed 38% of the coyotes you call and you think that is going to stop predation?"

I'll give you the benefit of the doubt on your math. Pretty basic statistics. If you derive a final number of 11%, then that's what it must be. Gold star for you. More importantly, I've never asserted that my hunting will stop depredation. I have inferred that a far as the coyotes I kill are concerned, they have stopped depredating anything.

"If my calling statistics were that poor, I'd quit."

Probably a good thing you live in South Dakota, huh? In this part of Kansas, again - a completely different biome than what you have seen in western Kansas around St. Francis - these are pretty good number. There's one other guy in this area that calls as much as I do and I saw him at the fur buyer's last week. He had a grand total of 12 coyotes on the year. he pointed to the two big piles of mauled and chewed up coyotes from the dog wagon boys lying nearby waiting to be graded and sold and made a disparaging remark about how "those bastards" are the cause of his bad numbers. Guess my "excus-itis" is contagious, huh?

"If I can't consistently call coyotes on 50% of my stands and kill 50% of the coyotes I see that I have access to, I'm disatisfied. Perhaps you should learn how to locate your coyotes before you call a stand rather than calling just because you think a certain place looks good or if you are locating them, you better learn to call them."

Again, good thing you live there and not here. I guess I'm just more "determined" than you are. of course, we could have all the coyote callers in the country move to South Dakota where we'll find "satisfaction", like you.

Just so you know, I know how to locate coyotes. Spend a lot of evenings prior to season locating and plotting out packs. If you can convince our tight-lipped coyotes to run their mouth off back at you in the daytime, more power to you. I had it happen twice to me this year. Let's see, two stands out of 246? Uhh, add this, divide that, carry the one. That's a daytime reponse rate of exactly .008. Guess there aren't any coyotes after all.

In the absence of vocal responses, great and wise one, how do you suppose we should select stand locations? Gut feeling? Past history of responses? Experience? Dumb luck?

"Most of the predation complaints you receive are on cattlemen right? The window of calf predation is very small before calves become too much for coyotes to handle. When calling cattlemen outside of that window, you are not doing anything to reduce predation."

Is this news to anyone? Really? Uhh, yes, I'm calling around cattlemen. Other than two small flocks and one old lady with five ewes and a ram that run loose in her yard, WE DON'T HAVE SHEEP.
As far as not doing anything to help predation, okay. But I'm sure having fun.

"As far as sheep problems, most of the range lambing operations are gone so you certainly aren't helping anyone with sheep by only killing 38% of the coyotes you call next to a farm flock that is tight to the buildings in August. Who do you think you're kidding?"

Again, I've made no claims to controlling predation hunting during the season. I just can't figure out why or how you can't wrap your head around that. Then again, how long have I been arguing about a sheep industry that no longer exists. Why do you keep going back to that? as far as 'tight to buildings' go, this area has no huge expanses of open range. EVERYTHING and EVERYWHERE is close to buildings.

"Based on you there is no need for predator control in your area which could be a result of many factors so why try to pretend that you are some kind of substitute for an ADC program WHEN, ACCORDING TO YOU, THERE'S NO NEED FOR ONE?"

Again, whose pretending.

Hey, the rest of you, do any of you vaguely recall me saying that we really don't have a need for professional predator control people or has that remark just been bouncing around in my thick skull?

And Scott, aside from it being my own modest opinion, it's the opinion of my producers. Do you want names and phone numbers? Maybe you can call them yourself and explain to them how they're too damned stupid to know what they need. LOL

"Maybe you don't have any coyotes where you called. Did you ever think of going to a place WITH COYOTES?"

You're right. There aren't any. Well, not really "any". Just one. One neurotic little bastard that was all over the country the night before, leaving all those fresh tracks in the snow.

As far as going places with coyotes, yeah I have. Once or twice a year when I can get away and go to CO or NE or someplace like that where, by the way, I do very well for someone who doesn't know what they're doing, thank you very much.

"Why? You bring experts into an area without coyotes so that you can justify your miserable percentages?"

Nope, because they want to hunt here in January and I've told every one of them that the hunting gets very poor once the ground freezes hard and the dog wagons rape and pillage every square inch of cover. The coyotes are there. They'll attest to that. Yet none of them have managed to peel one either. Statement of fact. Go figure.

"If you had any confidence in your abilities, you'd enter St. Francis instead of writing about those that do."

If I had any desire to hunt competitively, I'd enter St. Francis. But, with the timing of that hunt and the kind of ground out there compared to mine here where I have permission, I'd do just as well sending Brent my check as a donation. LOL I'm comfortable in my own skin as far as my skills go and don't need to run my ass ragged for two days just so I can say once and for all that I'm better than you. Doesn't appeal to me at all.

How many times have you seen me out there? Uhhh, once. The reason I was there was because I was asked to do the story. Glad to help Brent out. Lots of writers write about other people every day and every month. Just a while back, Gerry Blair penned a nice piece on Rich Higgins and Tyler. Did you send him a letter bomb because he had the gall to write about someone else? Double standard? How many times has Gerry won St. Francis? How about some of the other big names in the industry? How about you?

"My problem with you..."

That's the root of your problem, isn't it? You have a problem with ME! I'm cool with that. Sounds like a personal problem, but if you want to lose sleep over me, go ahead. I'll add bugging the crap out of you to my list of things I'm pretty good at if I just take the time to apply myself. You're one out of roughly 40,000 readers, and that's just ONE magazine I wrote for. Would it really chap your ass if I told you I have been approached by another very recognizable name in the industry and asked if I'd be willing to contribute to someone other than T&PC? Told him I am happy where I am, so you can safely buy other media and rest comfortably knowing you won't stumble on my misguided ramblings.

"You learn a new technique from someone like Rich Higgins then you write about it before you've even had a chance to apply it and that's why I don't give much credence to anything you say. "

Finally, one last point. Not too long ago, there was a big shit storm about how people learn things from their mentors yet are not willing to give credit where credit was rightfully due. If I recall, you were the primary turd stirrer on that one, too. Now, when someone is willing to shed a little light on someone that's brought great things to the industry, guys like you still find a way to get your panties all in a bunch because even then, it's just not good enough.

So, Scott, which way will you have it? Give credit? Or not? Maybe you want everyone to stumblebump their way thru the try and fail method, or better yet, call you, pay you and make you a fast buck because, after all, you're all knowing. LOL

For the record, you will never pick up a magazine where the writing staff hasn't done copy featuring some main character. Again, Gerry's piece on the Higgins boys comes to mind. That's how articles are written. Duh!

With respect to Rich and the articles I've done on him, they were conceived by him in our discussions as a means of getting what he thought and still thnks is important information out to regular Joe callers.

Same goes for the article on misting about Leonard. Rich's idea. Leonard agreed. If you want to rip someone, maybe you need to rip on them, too.

Same for the articles on Q. His ideas. My writing.

All were a great opportunity for me to refine my skills writing beyond the first person. They were all factually accurate despite your personal opinion.

If you really don't like my writing, feel free to turn the page. You're a minority and nothing more than an accepted and expected part of the job. Again, thanks for sharing. Your thoughts are important to me.

Oh, and BTW, I ran into a couple of my livestock guys today. Asked them if the recall anyone that used to raise sheep around here. They both said, "Oh yeah."

I asked them why they no longer raise sheep. They said, "Isn't any money in it." I was shocked.

"You mean, there wasn't any income, or the costs associated with coyote losses ruined their profit margin?"

They both laughed, and said that coyotes had nothing to do with it. There wasn't any real money in it to begin with and there still isn't.

Let's see,.... guess you're wrong again.
 

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Posted by coyote whacker (Member # 639) on February 20, 2007, 04:49 PM:
 
In your honest opinion, if Wildlife services shut it's doors tonight, and Ranchers had to start paying the full bill for a private ADC contractor out of their own pocket starting tomorrow.

Do you think that makes the problem of depredation go away? They pay taxes and pay into the program 2 ways, livestock head tax and also other taxes as well.

Cdog your producers can have there thoughts, but to say there is no money in this lamb market is not factual.Plenty make money off of sheep and yes they are more work than cattle for the most part, that being a big reason many don't like to run them!

Look at what lamb chops in the store ***** for, if lamb meat was out why then are stores selling it for 10-12 per lb? Sadly the producer isn't in that range but if you can take a 100-120% lamb crop to market for "finishing" an average 85-90 per head for 6 months of care and grazing thats not bad money is it? Run 500 thats $45,000 off of that lamb crop for 6 months.

I in fact have some producers that have gotten back into sheep and others who have kept back ewe lambs to make there operations larger. The next year. It's all in what a man wants to do to make a living and many of the old timers where raised on sheep and continue on as a way to make a living.

[ February 20, 2007, 05:00 PM: Message edited by: coyote whacker ]
 

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Posted by Tim Behle (Member # 209) on February 20, 2007, 05:23 PM:
 

quote:

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In your honest opinion, if Wildlife services shut it's doors tonight, and Ranchers had to start paying the full bill for a private ADC contractor out of their own pocket starting tomorrow.

Do you think that makes the problem of depredation go away?

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quote:

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Look at what lamb chops in the store (Retail) for, if lamb meat was out why then are stores selling it for 10-12 per lb?

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The retail price is that high, because it is considered a specialty item. The demand is so low, that few places are set up to butcher lamb. Those who do, can demand a premium price. People prefer Beef, and that is the market that the public supports.
 

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Posted by Tim Behle (Member # 209) on February 20, 2007, 05:31 PM:
 
Scott,

Before you, Cal or any other Government paid ADC worker gets their panties in a wad, let me fully state, that I have complete admiration for both you personally, and for the work that you do.

I just don't believe that the demand for your work would be nearly so high, if the Ranchers who benefited for your services, had to pay a private contractor to do the same job.
 

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Posted by Cal Taylor (Member # 199) on February 20, 2007, 05:49 PM:
 
Coyote Wacker is right about the fact that in most places (definately Wyoming) the ranchers are charged a head tax for every head of livestock that they sell, it goes for predator control) and that funds a large share of the WS budget. Some counties here dropped WS because they didn't think it was effective enough and started their own programs and they fund themselves entirely. This year they did get some extra money in the county that I work for but it is designed for more predator control to help more than just the ranchers. It is directed at wildlife. I don't live in Kansas (thank God) but here wildlife is also a large part of the economy and that money that comes into the state is substantial. It is turned over several times in this economy and affeects almost every business in the state. Predator control is important to wildlife management. Another difference here and places like where Scott is, is that unlike the more farm oriented communitites, there is very little farming. The producers have to make their living on livestock, there is no big farm subsidy check or CRP check coming in. I've seen the CRP in Kansas, I see where most of those guys make their living, leeching off of the government. As far as no money in sheep, I have a county full of sheep producers that have made their livings for several generation off of sheep alone.
 

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Posted by TA17Rem (Member # 794) on February 20, 2007, 05:52 PM:
 
Here in Mn. we have had an increase on sheep production and there still are a few 1,000 head feed-lots still around.
 

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Posted by Cdog911 (Member # 7) on February 20, 2007, 05:58 PM:
 
Tim,

I, too, hold these guys in the highest regard. Don't confuse my commentary with Scott as a general statement against ADC as a whole. Theirs is a dream job for many of us. It's Scott's personal problems with me that are my issue here.

CW,

I have friends who own large ranches out in NW Colorado of which most are in sheep leases. Sheep is a major industry out there and the guys that build their operations around it do so because the environment and resources support that direction. Around here, the best money is in cattle. That's what happens when you have big bluestem higher than your head for mile after mile. For whatever reason, I keep trying to explain my side of this debate from the standpoint of a guy that hunts HERE, in these conditions . Not THERE, in those. Scott's the one that keeps trying to explain to me how my area is. Weird, huh?

My comments shouldn't be misconstrued to say that the sheep industry as a whole, is obsolete. That is NOT what I have said. As far as in this area, it's relatively non-existent.

Oh yeah, we've turned the phones off.

Today's tally?

Calls: 0

Losses: 0

And our new category, losses we're not aware of: 0, we think.
 

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Posted by Rich (Member # 112) on February 20, 2007, 07:30 PM:
 
"Rich, I hear these Ranchers around here whining about having to pay part of the cost, maybe they don't have to pay any of it in other areas?"
-----------------------------------
Tim B,
Yes, I know what you mean and I would like to know just who pays for it. From what Cal and C.W. have said, it sounds like the livestock producers pay a certain percentage of the cost when they sell their stock. I ain't complaining or anything, just curius is all. You raise roosters don't ya Tim? Do you have to pay an ADC tax on em when you sell? The farmers around here don't want to pay for coyote control, they just cuss a lot when a calf or a few sheep are killed.
 

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Posted by Cal Taylor (Member # 199) on February 20, 2007, 09:26 PM:
 
Holy Crap! I just noticed I broke a thousand posts. I never thought that would happen. I have been spending way too much time around a computer for a couple years I can plainly see.
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on February 21, 2007, 05:17 AM:
 
Yeah, you need rehab, Cal. Shave your head, say "hi" to Britney.

Seriously, we're glad to have you. You classy the place up, and Nancy always said you were a handsome dude.

Good hunting. LB
 

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Posted by JoeF (Member # 228) on February 21, 2007, 05:24 AM:
 
I've raised cattle (still do) and sheep in both Missouri and Illinois. Areas that are more like Cdog's eastern Kansas. Areas where the forage is so thick that the carrying capacity could almost be more correctly stated as cows per acre than acres per cow.
Raising sheep provides little return compared to cattle. If you've got the room, raise cows.
People ( around here) got out of the sheep market in the mid 80's when the bottom dropped out of the market. Anybody remember when they were killing them in Australia by the tens of thousands and burying them with bulldozers because they could not afford to feed them. Killed our market, too. Put me out of the sheep business - quick like a bunny.
People around here typically only raise sheep as a novelty, they don't have the space for cows, or they have a pasture/woodland mix that they'd like cleaned up to reduce the competition with grass.
In my experience and those I know coyotes are not a real problem, cattle or sheep. Pen or pasture birthing. If I go back a long ways, not a real problem for hogs, either. Sure do hear a lot of bitching about it though. Fukin wolves are always killin sumthin.
Dogs running loose are a problem.

Point being, the lack of sheep farming in Mo. and IL. have nothing to do with some failed or misguided program. Simply a matter of ROI. Even true in the 1/2 of Mo. where there are no row crops. If you can get grass to grow between the rocks and trees cows pay better. Suspect that the areas of the rest of the country with good grass are the same, including eastern KS.

Glad somebody raises them, I'd sorely miss my wool socks. Speaking of which, I only know of one outfit that does commercial shearing above I70 in Eastern Mo./Western IL. Not saying there aren't more, just haven't heard of them. There is no money in the wool, if you don't shear yourself you pay the shearer and give them the wool.

Tim hit it right on the lamb generaly being a bit of a specialty item. Raise lambs in this part of the country and miss the Easter market and the bottom falls out of the prices.

Anybody still raising sheep thank me. I love wool clothing and buy lamb a couple of times a year; if I can find it in the store, in some sort of funny attempt to stimulate the local market.
Shucks, I even almost liked raising them, especially when there were little kids around.
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on February 21, 2007, 06:39 AM:
 
I don't doubt anything said, to this point, know nothing about circumstances? But, what is it about Wyoming that sheep ranchers manage to survive, and it can't be done in Kansas and MO.? Actually there used to be a lot of sheep in northern Nevada, Basque. Maybe it's the forage available, or lack of?

Good hunting. LB
 

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Posted by Cdog911 (Member # 7) on February 21, 2007, 07:07 AM:
 
Hold on to your bloomers, boys. We got a phone call!

8:15 this morning. I was sitting at the dining room table, minding my own business, when the bat phone started ringing. My pulse raced. A bead of sweat broke across my brow line (and if you've seen my bald head, you know that's a damned big brow line) as I hit the flashing red light and nervously said, "Hello?"

It was Earl in Ohio. Greeted me like we were old high school chums. Called to tell me how much he enjoyed this last article on coon calling in T&PC and find out which e-call to buy. Money was no object. Said he was "really pumped". Wonder if "anyone else" got a phone call this morning tell them that they were doing a great job? Just curious.

Guess that makes me one and one this week as far as people that like me and people that don't.

Leonard,

I think available forage is the key, but then again, I'm not a livestock producer. Just a coyote hunter. And that's debatable.

I've had the privilege of hunting both types of areas. In the sheep country I've hunted, a guy can lay down prone and hunt and the tallest thing in front of you, aside from a few yucca plants, some sage and soapweed, is maybe three inches tall. As my profs would say, you have to have tight lips like a mountain maggot to get at that stuff.

By comparison, fat lipped old cows can really go at it here in the tall- and mixed-grass prairies of central and eastern Kansas. In the next few weeks, after the big bluestem has taken off, places like the Flint Hills will look like any other place from a distance, but get out there amongst that stuff and it'll be taller than you with visibility lying down less than the length of a rifle barrel. Sometimes, you can't even see when calling from high vantage points, but that's another day's fight.
 

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Posted by Wiley E (Member # 108) on February 21, 2007, 07:44 AM:
 
Lance,

What point do you think you are making with your waiting for phone calls?

You have stated repeatedly that there is no need for predator control in your area and you've basically said there is hardly any coyotes so why would anyone call you with predator problems? Does that make sense in your little world?

Better yet, if someone did have predator problems, why would they call someone who only kills coyotes on 11% of the stands they make and are constantly looking for excuses for their lack of success?

GEE, I WONDER WHY YOUR PHONE ISN'T RINGING???

BEAM ME UP SCOTTY!

Doesn't take much to figure that one out.

I'm pointing out your constant contradictions. First you say your handling your problems then you suggest that you have your problems handled then you say you don't have any coyotes and nobody is calling?

You're making me dizzy talking in circles.

As far as giving credit, it's one thing to give someone credit for something they taught you. It's quite another to present opinions about methods that you haven't even had a chance to apply. Instead of giving credit for methods that you haven't even used, why not just let the originator of said methods write the article?

There's no contradiction. The issue was not in giving credit, the issue is in writing about methods you haven't even used. How the hell can you have an objective opinion on methodology you haven't tested and how can you know whether or not something works when you only call coyotes on 11% of the stands you make?

I'll address the rest of your insecurities later.

TB: "In your honest opinion, if Wildlife services shut it's doors tonight, and Ranchers had to start paying the full bill for a private ADC contractor out of their own pocket starting tomorrow.

How long do you think it would take before the Predator problems in Western States, where Wildlife services is currently active, to drop off to the same levels as those to the East where there are no Government hunters, trappers or airplanes?

These Ranchers hire Government hunters, because they get subsidized on the cost of the hunting. If these guys had to pay the full bill out of their own pocket, just like the guys back East do now, their problem would go away just as fast."

Tim,

First, as Cal has pointed out, all ADC programs are different in the way they are funded. Most ADC programs that I know of are a combination of federal, state, and local dollars. In SD, producers are assessed a head tax on cattle and sheep and that amount is taken out of the general county funds. Basically, the sheep and cattle numbers are used to determine how much each county will pay. That amount is then matched 2 to 1 by SD Dept. of Game, Fish, and Parks from wildlife funds. Then we get some Federal funding as well. Why the public funding? Because the sportsman realize that they are going to have more coyotes to hunt by having someone remove the problem animals in problem areas as opposed to broad based population control methods by less desirable methods.

The history of publicly funded ADC programs goes back to 1972 when the use of toxicants were banned. The government, being sympathetic towards the public's wildlife killing private livestock and the landowners means of taking care of their own problems being taken from them decided to provide a professional, accountable, publicly funded ADC program as a replacement for broad based toxicant use. Make no mistake, landowners can take care of this problem themselves but none of you would like their methods and ranchers don't have time to remove problem coyotes when they are busy lambing and calving.

So, directly to your question, what would happen if publicly funded ADC programs were removed and landowners were forced to pay for the costs of ADC programs? One of two things, either producers would quit raising range flocks of sheep due to the predation, or they would use illegal toxicants to solve their own problems because they couldn't afford to flip the bill themselves. That's what would happen and has happened.

Our job doesn't end until the killing stops. Some recreational caller that kills coyotes on 11% of his stands is not going to be called more than once if even that.

I'm sure some ranchers would fund pay for private predator control but it would probably be large commercial hunting operations that can afford it. See how this works Tim?

You either have ranchers that are subsidized that allow hunting or you have ranchers that can afford private predator control that only allow commercial hunting.

I can argue both sides of this myself and sure, I have a bias but at the same time, I'm objective on this topic as well. When you have the "PUBLICS WILDLIFE" killing "PRIVATE LIVESTOCK" the public has to have some degree of responsibilty when it's the public that won't allow livestock producers to take matters into their own hands.

Recreational calllers want it all ways. They'd like to get paid to remove problem animals without being held accountable for their results. They'd like to see ranchers allow private huting. They'd like to see ranchers not use toxicants and they'd like to see ranchers not funded by the government? WHAT A COUNTRY HUH?

Lance, I'll get to the rest of your drivel when I have more time. I have to go process some cat carcasses.

~SH~
 

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Posted by Wiley E (Member # 108) on February 21, 2007, 07:55 AM:
 
I think we need to start a support group for coyote callers who need excuses to justify their lack of success.

I think we should call this support group "WOE IS ME" and give Lance an honorary membership.

Krusty Klimber used to be a member but he's found the thrill of trapping and gaining self confidence as a result. In other words, he's found a way to overcome the obstacles that were standing in the way of his success in calling. He grabbed the traps. Kudos to Krusty Klimber.

~SH~
 

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Posted by coyote whacker (Member # 639) on February 21, 2007, 07:58 AM:
 
January 1, 1998
Beef Cows Inventory
Rank State (1,000 Head)


1 Texas 5,520
2 Missouri 1,990
3 Oklahoma 1,965
4 Nebraska 1,930
5 SouthDakota 1,559
6 Montana 1,542
7 Kansas 1,461
8 Kentucky 1,140
9 Tennessee 1,085
10 Florida 1,010
United States 33,683

Top sheep producing states from 2006
State No. of Head
Texas 1,090,000
California 650,000
Wyoming 450,000
Colorado 390,000
South Dakota 385,000
Montana 295,000
Utah 280,000
Idaho 260,000
Iowa 235,000
Oregon 220,000
Total in U.S. 6,230,000

Funny how many of the same states have both in the top ten?Over the past 200 years, the U.S. sheep population has come full circle. From 7 million head in the early 1800's, sheep numbers peaked at 56 million head in 1945, then declined to less than 7 million head on January 1, 2003. At the same time, industry emphasis switched from wool to meat production. Sheep numbers increased slightly in 2005 and 2006, the first time since 1990.

For the record there is nothing my family likes more in the meat dept than grilled lamb chops with garlic butter and salt/pepper

[ February 21, 2007, 08:18 AM: Message edited by: coyote whacker ]
 

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Posted by slydog (Member # 389) on February 21, 2007, 08:43 AM:
 
Leonard,

I'm with you, I remember when flocks were all over Northern NEV., SW Idaho, SE Or., Montana and Wyoming. That was back in the day. Many of the ranchers I do work for have gone the way of cattle. Less work more money. I do 80% of the depridation work on ranches where they used to raise sheep (Basque ranchers). Even though they don't suffer the losses with cattle that they did with sheep they still have the hate for the coyote.
I damn sure don't hate the coyote but with the onslot of new hunters, all lookin for ground to hunt I find myself hunting the coyotes harder on the ranches in order to keep the ground.

It seems my phone rings on a "When they see them basis". I just hate the May-August calls. Seems over the last few years, those calls have picked up quite a bit.

I sure don't eat mutten but I sure like my wool.. I'd Rather eat Elk.

sly
 

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Posted by UTcaller (Member # 8) on February 21, 2007, 08:50 AM:
 
CW:For the record there is nothing my family likes more in the meat dept than grilled lamb chops with garlic butter and salt/pepper

Ain't that the truth.

Chad
 

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Posted by Rich (Member # 112) on February 21, 2007, 09:43 AM:
 
"Recreational calllers want it all ways. They'd like to get paid to remove problem animals without being held accountable for their results. They'd like to see ranchers allow private huting. They'd like to see ranchers not use toxicants and they'd like to see ranchers not funded by the government? WHAT A COUNTRY HUH?"
---------------------------------------
Scott,
I hope you don't think that ALL recreational callers feel that way. I don't.
 

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Posted by Cdog911 (Member # 7) on February 21, 2007, 09:58 AM:
 
Scott,

Been checking out that 11%. A lot of KS callers are behind me and agree that that's a pretty fair assessment. Like I said last night, probably a good thing you don't live in KS. I never said we had good coyote hunting. But, it's where I live and where I hunt. Puttin' by and makin' due.

Offering up all the kudos that people give the likes of you in areas where your coyote numbers are so much higher and they're more easily called than here is a mistake as far as I'm concerned. After all, anyone can catch a chicken in a hen house.

Calling a state like Kansas where it's a true challenge only serves to make you better as you have to work your way through the challenges with which you're faced. That's maybe why those two Kansas boys smacked you down at St. Francis two years in a row. I'm just saying,...

"What point do you think you are making with your waiting for phone calls? "

Why, I'm trying to prove your point, Scott. You stated that it's your (informed) opinion that we have a problem and that we're undergunned in dealing with it. Isn't that the inference you've made all along? Who else but you would possibly know that? Certainly not me. I just live here. The numbers will tell us for sure. Of course, this isn't a truly scientific study - purely anecdotal at best - but it reflects this area where I hunt as good as anything anyone else is doing to evaluate the need for hired guns. And since that's all I really am concerned about, that's what I'll address.

"Better yet, if someone did have predator problems, why would they call someone who only kills coyotes on 11% of the stands they make and are constantly looking for excuses for their lack of success?"

As has been clearly pointed out on numerous previous responses, in those instances where I have been asked to come out and target specific coyotes in specific locations, that number rises from 11% (which reflects the season-wide numbers) to nearly 84% kill rate (specifically hunting to assist landowners) and satisfaction rate for the producer. I guess if they actually paid me to do the job, I may have run that last one down, too. Instead, I put in my forty-plus hours a week working for Uncle Sam and try to fit them in around a wife and kids, a taxidermy business, callmaking, and writing. Did you know I wrote? You'll need to read some of my stuff.

"GEE, I WONDER WHY YOUR PHONE ISN'T RINGING???"

Maybe because there isn't a problem to call about. Won't know until all the numbers are in. Keep checking in!

"First you say your (should be 'you're) handling your problems then you suggest that you have your problems handled.."

Isn't that redundant? Talk about circles!!!

"...then you say you don't have any coyotes and nobody is calling?"

I've stated repeatedly that we have lots of coyotes. What we don't have is lots of coyotes responding to calls. For me, or anyone else for that matter.

Nobody is calling (I presume you mean via phone) because NO PROBLEMS ARE OCCURRING. If you mean nobody is calling coyotes, there are a lot of guys trying, but not many had much luck this year. But, again, you'd know more about local success rates than I would, wouldn't you?

"You're making me dizzy talking in circles."

Same back at you, li'l buddy. See redundant remark above.

"why not just let the originator of said methods write the article?"

I don't know why they didn't write them themselves. They'll have to speak to that, and I certainly wish they would so we could at least wrap up one segment of this round and round. What I do know is that I write and I was approached by them, or an associate of theirs, to write the piece. Again, as I tried (albeit unsuccessfully) to point out last night, that's how the magazine business is done. Writers write about other people for feature articles, otherwise we'd all eventually come across as self absorbed... like some people.

Would someone please explain to me the confusion with this? It seems rather self-explanatory to me.

"The issue was not in giving credit, the issue is in writing about methods you haven't even used."

In fact, I have used those methods. Except for going to Africa. Haven't done that yet. Not on my radar today, but there's always tomorrow.

My results in using those methods were successful enough in a relatively short span (mean = 1.5-2 years use, or 500 stands) of time that I felt they had merit. At the same time, the people featured in those articles are very credible and highly respected in the industry. Maybe part of that is that they don't always have to come off as knowing everything, all the time, and are cordial in their social skills. That is always a plus when you want a little respect, ya know?

I think if you can stomach going back and reading those articles you will find that the focus of the piece was on the technique and the person(s) who is best known for using it. Any accountings I offered up were only supportive in nature and I didn't really take any credit for thinking up any particular aspect of the technique. I used my own personal anecdotal accounts because 1) I wasn't with the contributor when they had their experiences (what I get paid making those fast bucks makes traveling to AZ cost prohibitive), and 2), it gives the article a little variety and to show it work(ed) for more than just the guy being featured, and in places other than just AZ or CA.

"when you only call coyotes on 11% of the stands you make?"

You lose your gold star, Scott. I told you I made 246 stands this year, called 74 coyotes, and killed 28. By my math, that equates to calling coyotes on 30.08% of stands called, and killing coyotes on 11.38% of total stands. Looking at things from the perspective that you can only kill coyotes when coyotes are seen, you would have to calculate the percentage killed based upon the total seen, or 28 kills of 74 seen, or a kill percentage of 37.83 percent.

Restating those numbers in figures like most recreational callers tally, that means I called coyotes at a rate of one in every three stands (damned impressive for this part of Kansas) and of those called, killed better than one in three. Admittedly, those numbers look better than they are since a fair share of them responded as multiples and only one of the bunch was killed. I didn't score any double this year, sadly enough.

Do they teach fuzzy math at U of SD?

"I'll get to the rest of your drivel when I have more time. I have to go process some cat carcasses."

I'll still be here! Oh, and CAT, IT'S WHAT'S FOR DINNER!!!

In the meantime, I have three European mounts in the shop that need finishing.

Today, I think I'm a taxidermist!!!
 

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Posted by coyote whacker (Member # 639) on February 21, 2007, 12:51 PM:
 
Cdog ytou need to do a little research on coyote numbers harvested per state.

Here is what you wrote: Like I said last night, probably a good thing you don't live in KS. I never said we had good coyote hunting. But, it's where I live and where I hunt. Puttin' by and makin' due.

Offering up all the kudos that people give the likes of you in areas where your coyote numbers are so much higher and they're more easily called than here is a mistake as far as I'm concerned. After all, anyone can catch a chicken in a hen house.

You then went on to write: I've stated repeatedly that we have lots of coyotes. What we don't have is lots of coyotes responding to calls. For me, or anyone else for that matter.

See how that is misleading?

Then look at the figures for the states 2003-2004 Annual Kansas Fur Harvest report 25,407 killed statewide and bought by in state furbuyers 13,194

Compair that with South Dakota from Fur dealer records in state coyotes purchased 4,791.

So your calling can't be all that bad can it? Coyotes can be called in any state at any time, weather, methods used, effort put in and knowing the lay of the land and some times of the year being much better than ohters all plays into your outcome.
 

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Posted by Cdog911 (Member # 7) on February 21, 2007, 02:38 PM:
 
CW,

I've missed very few of those KFHA fur auctions. Used to be an officer. And from what I've seen and been told by the guys there selling fur, the vast majority of those coyotes are taken by traps. In fact, I was pretty much chastised by KFHA as a whole a couple years ago because "all (he) ever writes about is calling, and not trapping anymore."

Another major mortality factor as far as hunting goes involves dog wagons. I know of seven different dog wagons right here in my town. In the last ten days out, we couldn't find a single piece of ground that didn't have fresh tire tracks going in and out. If it isn't the dog wagons, it's the other guys running them with trucks.

Unlike Rich Cronk, I don't get too bent out of shape over these guys. I certainly understanding his position on them and could easily take that same stance, but I cut my teeth hunting coyotes tied to the front seat of my dad's Chevy with a length of rope and see it as somewhat hypocritical to trash them when I was once one of them. In fact, I still consider that type of hunting a lot of fun. Just can't afford the truck, the gas or the dogs.

You said that I said, "You then went on to write: I've stated repeatedly that we have lots of coyotes. What we don't have is lots of coyotes responding to calls. For me, or anyone else for that matter."

Again, we have lots of coyotes. Allow me to reiterate for the challenged amongst us: our response rates here are slightly different than what I suppose you have where you're at. I know that they're vastly different than what I've observed in both Colorado and Nebraska. I stay in pretty much regular contact with no less than twenty to thirty callers in and around my area and think I have a pretty good handle on what, if anything, is working. I don't seen the need to try again in explaining why our hunting drops off precipitously in January and how others that exploit the resource factor into that since all you "pros" regard it merely as excuses. I've seen nothing to indicate to me that any of you could do any better.

"So your calling can't be all that bad can it? Coyotes can be called in any state at any time, weather, methods used, effort put in and knowing the lay of the land and some times of the year being much better than ohters all plays into your outcome."

Prior to the time when the ground freezes hard and makes it possible for the dog wagons to get all about, it can be pretty good. I agree with your statement. Later in the season when a lot of you guys in the areas where I really like to go hunting have things pretty good because of the coyote's increased willingness to respond to vocalizations, etc., and when the cold sharpens their responses to prey, other negative factors come into play in this area offsetting any benefits derived from those factors in the coyote's life.

That's not an excuse. For me, or anyone else. It's a fact of life, an accurate one, that each and every one of us around here contend with each year.

"South Dakota from Fur dealer records in state coyotes purchased 4,791."

That's all the more you guys sell in coyotes? I must say that I am surprised by that. How many were killed and not sold? Couple hundred thousand? Otherwise, I'd think you'd be hard pressed to convince reasonable people that you suffer an infestation.

Assuming that you do have the problems outlined, then that just goes to show you that just because you have coyotes doesn't necessarily mean you have a coyote problem, regardless of how you spin the data to validate your vocation.

[ February 21, 2007, 02:47 PM: Message edited by: Cdog911 ]
 

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Posted by Cdog911 (Member # 7) on February 21, 2007, 02:50 PM:
 
UPDATE TIME:

Phone calls: 0

Kills reported: 0

Calls from people that like me: 2 (Thanks, Tom)

Correspondence from those that do not: 1 (Still just Scott)

And from the field, Matt just walked in... he's unaware of any kills either.

All is well. Another day that our landowners have been spared financial ruin and carnage.

Oh, the satisfaction of a job well done!
 

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Posted by coyote whacker (Member # 639) on February 21, 2007, 03:13 PM:
 
No spinning of data it is as written. You have alot of mangy coyotes that get left, mange can run as high as 70% in areas pink bellys mean little value anything worse than that they get left in the pastures and creek draws.A couple hundred thousand LOL!

You don't think coyotes account for an economic impact on sheep and cattle producers in the US? Plenty of facts to back it up!

Assuming that you do have the problems outlined, then that just goes to show you that just because you have coyotes doesn't necessarily mean you have a coyote problem, regardless of how you spin the data to validate your vocation.

No spinning the data, the facts are there.

Dog wagons do you mean gray hounds? Site dogs? How do they see through all of your waste high cover? Or are these some kind of heavy cover rooting dog breed?

You wrote: I use a technique I learned from Higgins and see many multiples and generally am able to get one from the bunch. This year, I had several instances where I called 4 and 5 coyotes at a time. Because this isn't open range country like you enjoy, you generally get one shot and the survivors are six feet to heavy cover. Most of my shots are within fifty yards. Rarely over a hundred.

I would think they hear a truck and see a box of dogs they would just hop that 6 ft to heavy cover? Not to be seen by the huntin crew?

[ February 21, 2007, 03:26 PM: Message edited by: coyote whacker ]
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on February 21, 2007, 04:32 PM:
 

quote:

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Dog wagons do you mean gray hounds? Site dogs? How do they see through all of your waste high cover?

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I don't know why they didn't write them themselves. They'll have to speak to that, and I certainly wish they would so we could at least wrap up one segment of this round and round. What I do know is that I write and I was approached by them, or an associate of theirs, to write the piece.

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So, directly to your question, what would happen if publicly funded ADC programs were removed and landowners were forced to pay for the costs of ADC programs? One of two things, either producers would quit raising range flocks of sheep due to the predation, or they would use illegal toxicants to solve their own problems because they couldn't afford to flip the bill themselves. That's what would happen and has happened.

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I can argue both sides of this myself and sure, I have a bias but at the same time, I'm objective on this topic as well. When you have the "PUBLICS WILDLIFE" killing "PRIVATE LIVESTOCK" the public has to have some degree of responsibility when it's the public that won't allow livestock producers to take matters into their own hands.

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In SD, producers are assessed a head tax on cattle and sheep and that amount is taken out of the general county funds. Basically, the sheep and cattle numbers are used to determine how much each county will pay. That amount is then matched 2 to 1 by SD Dept. of Game, Fish, and Parks from wildlife funds. Then we get some Federal funding as well.

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You either have ranchers that are subsidized that allow hunting or you have ranchers that can afford private predator control that only allow commercial hunting.

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I can argue both sides of this myself

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Cdog: "Your comments demonstrate your ignorance, Scott."

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Cdog: "Good try at spinning the facts, but if the calls and e-mails I received after our most recent dust up before this one are any indication, I again submit that your comments speak to your character."

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Cdog: "BTW, just for the record, upon receiving that complaint this summer and killing the five, we called six. That's a kill rate of 83.5% when not just hunting for fun."

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Cdog: "Having said that, I do believe that someone should, or maybe can teach you a little respect and manners. You've got issues."

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Cdog: "I want to argue the point that the so-called problem is not of the extent that you seem to want to convince the readers it is."

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Cdog: "More importantly, I've never asserted that my hunting will stop depredation."

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Cdog: "Probably a good thing you live in South Dakota, huh?"

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Cdog: "In this part of Kansas, again - a completely different biome than what you have seen in western Kansas around St. Francis - these are pretty good number."

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Cdog: "There's one other guy in this area that calls as much as I do and I saw him at the fur buyer's last week. He had a grand total of 12 coyotes on the year. he pointed to the two big piles of mauled and chewed up coyotes from the dog wagon boys lying nearby waiting to be graded and sold and made a disparaging remark about how "those bastards" are the cause of his bad numbers. Guess my "excus-itis" is contagious, huh?"

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Cdog: "Again, good thing you live there and not here. I guess I'm just more "determined" than you are. of course, we could have all the coyote callers in the country move to South Dakota where we'll find "satisfaction", like you."

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Cdog: "In the absence of vocal responses, great and wise one, how do you suppose we should select stand locations? Gut feeling? Past history of responses? Experience? Dumb luck?"

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Cdog: "Other than two small flocks and one old lady with five ewes and a ram that run loose in her yard, WE DON'T HAVE SHEEP. As far as not doing anything to help predation, okay. But I'm sure having fun."

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Cdog: "Again, I've made no claims to controlling predation hunting during the season."

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Cdog: ".....as far as 'tight to buildings' go, this area has no huge expanses of open range. EVERYTHING and EVERYWHERE is close to buildings."

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SH (previous): "Did you ever think of going to a place WITH COYOTES?"

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Cdog (in response): "You're right. There aren't any. Well, not really "any". Just one."

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Cdog (in the next response): "I've told every one of them that the hunting gets very poor once the ground freezes hard and the dog wagons rape and pillage every square inch of cover. The coyotes are there. They'll attest to that. Yet none of them have managed to peel one either. Statement of fact. Go figure."

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Cdog (in the same post): "the two big piles of mauled and chewed up coyotes from the dog wagon boys"

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Cdog (in the same thread): "I've stated repeatedly that we have lots of coyotes. What we don't have is lots of coyotes responding to calls."

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Cdog: "I'm comfortable in my own skin as far as my skills go and don't need to run my ass ragged for two days just so I can say once and for all that I'm better than you."

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Cdog: "Just a while back, Gerry Blair penned a nice piece on Rich Higgins and Tyler. Did you send him a letter bomb because he had the gall to write about someone else?"

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Cdog: "How many times has Gerry won St. Francis?"

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Cdog: "How about some of the other big names in the industry?"

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Cdog: "How about you?"

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Cdog: "but if you want to lose sleep over me, go ahead."

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Cdog: "you can safely buy other media and rest comfortably knowing you won't stumble on my misguided ramblings."

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Cdog: "Again, thanks for sharing. Your thoughts are important to me."

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Cdog: "They both laughed, and said that coyotes had nothing to do with it. There wasn't any real money in it to begin with and there still isn't."

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Cdog: "That's what happens when you have big bluestem higher than your head for mile after mile."

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Cdog: "Also, it's waist high grass, and actually, it's often taller than that."

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Cdog (speaking of greyhound coursing): "THIS MUST BE DONE ON RELATIVELY OPEN GROUND WITH AS LITTLE COVER AS POSSIBLE."

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Cdog: "Been checking out that 11%. A lot of KS callers are behind me and agree that that's a pretty fair assessment."

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Cdog: "Offering up all the kudos that people give the likes of you in areas where your coyote numbers are so much higher and they're more easily called than here is a mistake as far as I'm concerned. After all, anyone can catch a chicken in a hen house."

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Cdog: "That's all the more you guys sell in coyotes? I must say that I am surprised by that. How many were killed and not sold? Couple hundred thousand? Otherwise, I'd think you'd be hard pressed to convince reasonable people that you suffer an infestation."

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Cdog: "Calling a state like Kansas where it's a true challenge only serves to make you better as you have to work your way through the challenges with which you're faced."

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Cdog: "That's maybe why those two Kansas boys smacked you down at St. Francis two years in a row."

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Cdog: "You stated that it's your (informed) opinion that we have a problem and that we're undergunned in dealing with it. Isn't that the inference you've made all along?"

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Cdog: "What we don't have is lots of coyotes responding to calls. For me, or anyone else for that matter."

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Cdog: " in those instances where I have been asked to come out and target specific coyotes in specific locations, that number rises from 11% (which reflects the season-wide numbers) to nearly 84% kill rate (specifically hunting to assist landowners) and satisfaction rate for the producer."

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Cdog: "My results in using those methods were successful enough in a relatively short span (mean = 1.5-2 years use, or 500 stands) of time that I felt they had merit."

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Cdog: "You lose your gold star, Scott."

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Cdog: "By my math, that equates to calling coyotes on 30.08% of stands called, and killing coyotes on 11.38% of total stands. Looking at things from the perspective that you can only kill coyotes when coyotes are seen, you would have to calculate the percentage killed based upon the total seen, or 28 kills of 74 seen, or a kill percentage of 37.83 percent."

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Cdog: "Assuming that you do have the problems outlined, then that just goes to show you that just because you have coyotes doesn't necessarily mean you have a coyote problem, regardless of how you spin the data to validate your vocation."

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Cdog: "Calls from people that like me: 2 (Thanks, Tom)"

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Higgins: "This is a clash of personalities that could be easily resolved by spending a day hunting with each other."

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TB: "No shit? When and where?"

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TB:"Have you ever had a trapper ask you "What's an M-44?" $10 says that if the question came from an adult, it was an Eastern Trapper who asked."

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TB: "Eastern trappers have never had Government funded Wildlife services, and yet somehow they have never had a problem with people using illegal toxicants.

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TB: "Western trappers, who have to live around the Government trappers can tell you exactly what an M-44 is, and Most of them will tell you that they are bad news, as we both know that they not only kill a lot of coyotes, but they kill all wildlife. (Did I mention that they can be hell on cattle as well?)

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TB: "So why does South Dakota have a coyote problem, and Government funded ADC, while Kansas has no problem, and no Government funded ADC?"

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TB:"And if memory serves, You and Dr Jones ( Ster600 ) brought the idea to the NTA and saved them from Bankruptcy a few years ago ( In case I've never told you, Thank You. I really appreciate that saving grace)"

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TB: "People who are forced to pay a tax are more likely to demanded the services that it funds, than are the people who pay the same tax voluntarily. That's just simple human nature."

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TB: "F&G doesn't care any more about protecting sheep than do most Americans. They fund you because Coyotes are major predators for Antelope Fawns."

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TB:"Wake up and get a grip!"

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TB: "Take a look at those numbers that coyote whacker posted again. Look at those top producing States, like Texas. When is the last time you heard a Texan whine about easy hunting access? They have Wildlife services, and yet the nearly the entire state is under a hunting lease. But if you go to States with out Wildlife services, you find land owners willing to FREELY allow hunters on their land."

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TB: "Simply put, The USDA Wildlife Services, does very little to help the public who funds it, but screws many hardworking Americans out of land to hunt."

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TB: "You guys fly an airplane to kill coyotes, ( Something illegal for most of us ) and ruin a good calling area for everyone else."

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TB: "You use toxicants that are illegal for everyone else, and when you are caught killing non-target animals, such as big game and livestock. You quickly blame the deaths on coyotes and ask for more funding. Hell, you guys are the experts, who is qualified to argue?"

---

I don't kill big game and livestock. I rock and trench my M-44s in and I don't set snares in livestock. I use breakaway locks and I use loop sizes and trails that rarely catch deer. I see far more problems with snares catching deer and livestock in the private sector, BY FAR.

I don't blame my mistakes on something else. I own up to my mistakes and have no problem doing so.

Thanks for the questions and comments Tim!

NEXT!

~SH~

[ February 22, 2007, 01:13 AM: Message edited by: Wiley E ]
 

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Posted by Cdog911 (Member # 7) on February 22, 2007, 04:37 AM:
 
"I placed 6th and 8th in St. Francis without a coyote refuge and without the hometown advantage. The year Quinton and I went down just to check out the contest, we killed 7 just knocking on doors which would have tied us for 3rd place that year if memory serves me correctly. This past year we placed 8th (tying 3 other teams with 6 coyotes that both beat us on total coyote weight). We got 13 stands in for the entire 2 days. The winning team got 17 stands in on the first day alone.

Well since you issued the challenge, I'll list the rest of my credentials.

I previously won the National contest in Rawlins Wyoming, won or placed in every contest I have entered in SD, and won the largest contest in North Dakota. Hold the current state record in SD for killing the most coyotes in a 3 day contest with a total of 30."

Ever enter the World Hunt? How'd that go?
 

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Posted by Tim Behle (Member # 209) on February 22, 2007, 05:01 AM:
 
Before anyone else steps into Scott's puddle of shit and comes to the defense of wildlife services, maybe I should cut to my point.

I don't have an argument with anyone else, and I'll save my problems with Wildlife Services for another post.

My disagreement is with Scott only.

Scott,

We know that you are a talented hunter and trapper, no one here is questioning that. You are also very intelligent and articulate, again no one is questioning that point. But what useful thing do you bring to the table for either the hunting or trapping communities?

You come to this board once or twice a year, simply to stir the pot and piss off my friends until they get tired of your shit and quit posting. You are no better than Bill Martz when it comes to making friends.

So you don't like the way Lance writes? Then don't read his writing!

If you don't like the way Byron South chatters on his videos, don't buy them.

You don't like the Name that Ronnie Robison picked for a new call? Try coming up with your own name and market your own call!

Do you notice a difference between you and the men that I just mentioned? Here it is, they are independent businessmen who are working to provide their own living by doing something that the hunting community is willing to pay to support. No one is forced to buy their products, they do it by their own free will.

During your visit here last fall, you were accusing people of "Prostituting the Industry" But the thing is, you were hurling you insults from the doorstep of Wildlife Services, the biggest whorehouse in the industry. If you think that you know better, or can do better than these men have done for our industry, I suggest you grow the balls to step out from under your protective cover, get off of the porch and try hunting with the big dogs.

Write your own articles, produce your own videos and calls. Produce something good enough that the hunting and trapping communities will support you in your efforts and you don't have to rely on the Government forcing people to pay your wages.

You have the talent, but it's a damned shame that you won't use your talent to become anything more than a Bill Martz clone.

The only difference at this point between you and Martz is your talent. Why in the hell won't you step up and put that talent to a positive use, instead of coming here a few times a year, only to degrade others?
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on February 22, 2007, 07:34 AM:
 
Don't sugar coat it, Tim.

Like Rush says about the mainstream news, now we have Scott, the "drive by" Internet critic.

Can you imagine the effort, all that cutting and pasting? I don't even have time to read it properly, just scan it.

Good hunting. LB
 

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Posted by scruffy (Member # 725) on February 22, 2007, 07:37 AM:
 
Quote from CW's post -

Tim said - "Wake up and get a grip! Take a look at those numbers that coyote whacker posted again. Look at those top producing States, like Texas. When is the last time you heard a Texan whine about easy hunting access? They have Wildlife services, and yet the nearly the entire state is under a hunting lease. But if you go to States with out Wildlife services, you find land owners willing to FREELY allow hunters on their land ."

CW - "Not factual at all Tim, try going to southern Iowa anymore and getting a "free" shot at a big buck or try going to Ill and getting that shot at a big buck, they are all going to hunting lease or paid to hunt. Yet they have no wildlife services programs. Last time I hunted southern Iowa, deer crawling all over themselves on a late season doe only hunt we actually had a few that wanted 100.00 per doe shot on their place LOL! With all the high fences in Texas can we really say what is and isn't wildlife anymore? Texas is not the great model of hunting by any means."

Did you drive up to the farmer with out of state plates? (If I see out of state plates I either say "no" or "show me the $$$". )

I don't have a problem finding ground to hunt deer on here (southern Iowa), more and more the farmers I ask to coyote hunt on ask me if I deer hunt and want to take some deer off also (I usually decline). Fortunately most farmers down here still could care less if a buck on his farm has 22 points on it or not. He's more worried about what ethenol is going to do to him depending on what type of operation he's running (growing corn or feeding corn to livestock or both), what new restrictions are coming, etc.

anyway, we don't need any wildlife programs here and we don't need to pay someone to kill coyotes with taxes. There's more than enough dog wagons (both sight hounds and dogs that track on smell, mostly sniffers down here), spot/stalk, callers, trucks, etc to keep the coyote in check, atleast enough they don't cause mass killings requiring the govt to step in.

later,
scruffy

[ February 22, 2007, 07:43 AM: Message edited by: scruffy ]
 

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Posted by Rich (Member # 112) on February 22, 2007, 07:47 AM:
 
"Not a fur tool by any means!!!"
--------------------------------
Coyote Whacker,
I can tell by reading your posts that you know quite a lot about trapping and the use of M-44's, but to say that the M-44 is not a fur tool by ANY means is simply not true. I have seen M-44 killed coyotes put up for fur, seen it with my own eyes. I even know one old trapper who actually prefers the M-44 killed coyotes, because there is no blood on the fur. I have actually observed this trapper when he smeared cyanide paste on a stick and held it out for a trapped coyote to bite. Quick, easy and no mess.
 

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Posted by Wiley E (Member # 108) on February 22, 2007, 07:49 AM:
 
Tim,

Nobody is forcing anyone to read my posts just as you recommended I not read Lance's articles. I don't.

I don't work for Wildlife Service and never have.

I don't like misleading information and will correct it if I'm allowed and I'll do it in the form of my chosing.

Nobody is forcing your friends to read my posts.

My opinion should be just as valid as anyone else's.

I don't care what anyone thinks of me because I have nothing to sell.

I don't care for fast buck artists that sell someone else's knowledge for their own personal gain and noteriety.

If that makes me a "Bill Martz clone" than I plead guilty as charged.

I'm not looking for friendship. I'm correcting misleading and inaccurate information.

I appreciate your candor and your criticisms and hold absolutely no ill will towards them. I am well prepared to accept that criticism considering the nature of my posts. It goes with the territory of correcting misleading and contradicting information.

Direct to your question:

Tim: "But what useful thing do you bring to the table for either the hunting or trapping communities?"

Very simple! I make people think about the validity of the information that they are reading. If that has no value to you, then skip over my posts. I'd swear, if I didn't know any better, I'd think you and your friends were being forced to read my posts at gunpoint.

My contributions to trapping and calling? LOL!

Tim you obviously don't know anything about me if you have to ask that question considering the time I spent defending trapping, teaching trapping, giving trapping and calling seminars, answering questions, ad nauseum.

I don't owe anyone anything!

Do you honestly think you can judge someone solely based on words on a computer screen?

TB: "I suggest you grow the balls to step out from under your protective cover, get off of the porch and try hunting with the big dogs."

Could you translate that for me?

Just exactly how do you propose I go about "hunting with the big dogs"?


~SH~

[ February 22, 2007, 09:48 AM: Message edited by: Wiley E ]
 

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Posted by Wiley E (Member # 108) on February 22, 2007, 07:59 AM:
 
Rich,

I think you misunderstood CW. I took that statement to mean, M-44s are not meant as a fur harvesting tool, which is true. I don't use many M-44s during prime fur season and certainly not during dog hunting season. Back in the days where I did use M-44s during prime fur season during winter lamb kills, I salvaged some fur but most of it ended up as eagle food.

~SH~
 

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Posted by Rich (Member # 112) on February 22, 2007, 08:30 AM:
 
Scott,
You may well be correct, maybe I misunderstood the meaning of those words. The point is, if I can misunderstand then someone else could also misunderstand. When I see a statement like that on this board, I have an inner need to point it out. I know a guy in South Dakota who is a stickler for the facts also.
 

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Posted by Wiley E (Member # 108) on February 22, 2007, 09:48 AM:
 

quote:

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Rich: "When I see a statement like that on this board, I have an inner need to point it out."

---

As do I!

This buds for you!

Keep on keepin' on!

~SH~
 

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Posted by Cdog911 (Member # 7) on February 22, 2007, 06:48 PM:
 
The rest of you guys owe me one. I had another long cut and paste manifesto all typed out when we experienced something of a minor family emergency here that required my immediate attention. After stepping away from the computer for a while, I came back and realized just how far Scott had baited me into his way of thinking. So, I'll try to keep this short so as not to bore you. If it gets a little windy, I apologize now. LOL

Scott,

People keep giving you credit for being an intelligent man. I don't see it. Throughout this debate, you have insisted on repeatedly offering up the same twisted spin about how I say I have no predator problems here, then how I supposedly contradict myself in saying the we manage the problems ourselves. I've done everything I know to do, to no avail, and can only conclude that you are a little "thick".

A number of guys have contacted me to let me know that my repeated explanations have been very understandable, and quite frankly, inquiring as to what the hell is wrong with you. But, just in case there's still a glimmer of hope, I'll go against my better judgment and give it one last college try.

Do we have a predator problem here? Because you like to go after every little word so you can confuse the issue with static and throw your opponent off balance, I should probably define as much of that statement as I can.

Thus, the answer is no. Occasional nuisance problems? Yes. Depredation problem, no. In this sense, I define a depredation problem as an ongoing problem where more than one animal (calf, lamb, whatever) are killed over a specific period of time. Last one of those was two seasons ago. I fixed that one.

Nuisance problem is another thing entirely. And a nuisance could be defined, IMO, as anything a coyote does to annoy a landowner. To me, my figures reflect those problems that result in monetary loss or the probability of loss. I don't have time to go out after every farmer's wife that complains that their dog's barking at the coyotes at night keep them awake.

Maybe you'd be more comfortable in thinking that guys like me manage "nuisance problems". I doubt that your ego will allow that, but let's at least base part of this dialogue on that definition.

Therefore, do we have a depredation problem here, with "here" being the four counties where I hunt in northcentral Kansas? No.

Do we have nuisance coyotes in this area? My answer: occasionally. Wherever you have coyotes, one or more will eventually cross wires with people. Anyone want to argue that?

On those occasions when a coyote gets crossed up with people, the ones that let us hunt on their ground know they can call us and we will go out and do what we can to help them out. In every instance over the past three seasons, a total of seven, I have been able to resolve the issue through calling the coyotes and killing them. In that sense, we have "managed the problems on our own". Not only is this my opinion, but after following up with the landowners to see if there had been any recurrences to either them or their neighbors, none have been observed. Problems were managed to the landowners' satisfaction as well as to mine.

That's about as simple a way as I can explain it. If you still don't get it, then my ability to write has failed us both because there simply aren't words to explain it more clearly and it then becomes obvious that you either are truly stupid or you simply like to argue, regardless of how petty it makes you look.

Going back through your various rants, it appears that the problem/ no problem issue is the primary basis of your attacks on me. Everyone else understands the issue, more than they want to in most cases I suppose, so I can only assume that you're reasonable enough to understand as well.

On to your opinion of my writing. I really couldn't care less. I know that doesn't shake you a bit, but you sure seem to enjoy letting everyone else know just what it is you don't like about my material and, in your opinion, why.

The world takes all kinds. Even those like you. The fact that I can accept criticism makes me a better candidate for the position of writer than you in the first place. You'd never survive the first round of people you think to be beneath you questioning your material. Somehow, you expect me to have the time to field test the various techniques employed by callers across the country to the extent that I can speak as an expert on everything. Unfortunately for me, I guess, I don't get paid to call coyotes full time like you, nor do most other writers. Instead, we write beyond the first person sense. We contact recognizable and experienced experts in the field, conduct interviews, do our research and assemble a piece that conveys useful information to our readers. What you so intelligently inferred to as being plagiarism of others' intellectual property is regarded by the rational, objective real world as simple research and it's commonplace in all journalism. For example, last week I read a piece in the local rag on the high school basketball team, yet the gal that wrote it said nothing about being on the court herself.

Your demands and expectations are unreasonable and, if that's what you're looking for in a magazine on calling, then obviously, the two I write for aren't for you. In fact, they aren't anyway. I've attempted to make it clear to you that our market is the "experienced trapper and predator caller". Not professional ADC people who are paid to sit through classes to learn all the newest and most effective methods in taking coyotes, many and most of which are not available to the lay caller. We write to a specific cross section of the market. Your training is beyond that, so if you don't care for what I offer, like Tim said, turn the page.

In the end, you're just one individual man. One out of a subscribership of over 38,000 each issue by last count. And PH ***** even more than that. You're a non-factor, dude.

In 13 years writing for T&PC, I've only had two dissatisfied customers; you and Sonny from Iowa, and he was just pissed because I wrote about his coon calling "secret". By his own admission, he liked the article and agreed with everything I had to say. So, in that sense, you stand alone. And if it's all the same to you, I choose to focus on the phone calls, e-mails and letters I get from people who have remained objective and tried that about which I have written and found it to helpful.

Long story less long, as Gerry would say, you come across as a petty and bitter angry man. At least I know that you have to be with you 24-7-365, and better you than me. Little advice, from me to you. That Lipitor you're on would be a lot more effective at controlling cholesterol if you would learn not to be such a prick to everyone all the time. Cholesterol is a by-product of the body's response to stress, but then again, you probably already knew that didn't you? Maybe you can cut it with some Premarin next time around. LOL

Oh, BTW, your comment where you invoked Krusty's name were really just as much a slam to him as they were to me. you might have meant them to sound complimentary, but you tried to make me look bad by comparing me to someone you offered up as worse. Especially sad since K gave you a nice compliment in our last little dust up. You're quite a friend. And, if you meant it to twist my tail a bit, it didn't work. When my dad died, K stepped up, despite our past history of not getting along, and did a pretty damned good thing for me. You should strive to be half the man he is.

As far as your comments trying to refute what I said back to coyote whacker regarding coursing coyotes with greyhounds, he's objective and adult enough that he understood what I said. And to think I was concerned that I had dumbed it down to where I thought he might be offended.

But, as usual, it wasn't dumbed down far enough. You had to glean, spin and twist my words to fit your agenda. Petty, petty, petty.

The rest of these guys get it, and that's what I'll hang my hat on. You seem to think you're gaining some traction with all that when you just come off looking ridiculous. Laughable.

You think you've won another great debate, don't you? You need help, Scott. You've got a problem. The way you know coyotes, I know sick people. It was my job for many years. Do you realize that for the past 48 hours, you've been reacting to MY twists and spin? Do you realize that the rest of us are doing to you what you think you're doing to us? You're a freak, dude.

As far as the coyotes and greyhounds go, your remarks reveal that you know nothing about coursing greyhounds, and that you know absolutely nothing about this region. Nothing at all. What kinda balls does it take to sit up there in Nowhere, SD, and try to tell ME what my area is like for calling? Friggin' intellectual hypocrite!

Ironically, you once told someone else on this board that the only way a guy can be judged in his calling is to compare his numbers against guys that call the same area, the same coyotes, under the same conditions. When I provide data from guys in this area, calling these coyotes under the same conditions as I, you insist on comparing me and my numbers to Jeremy and Nick in SW Kansas. Your own statements reveal your stupidity. It isn't ignorance because ignorance is correctable and in your case, you won't listen to anyone else, right or wrong. In your case, you can't fix stupid. Your logic is flawed and misleading. Get your facts right then we can talk like objective adults. You expect it of others. We demand the same from you.

For clarification, apparently we have more coyotes than you. Lots more. But, the way ours respond seems to be vastly different than in other places. I don't say that because I heard it. I say that because I have been other places and have seen it first hand. On several occasions. Otherwise, I wouldn't schedule an out of state hunt or two a year. Trying to identify why this is would be conjecture, at best, but I don't recall any hero stories of you smacking coyotes in eastern Kansas so I suspect you have no first hand experience with here, versus there. That makes some of us a bit more qualified to hold an opinion than you.

I just don't understand guys like you that always question those of us in these areas when we say our response rates differ from yours. Especially when we go to your place, do well using the same types of sounds under the same conditions as you, then come home and not see nearly as much, even though we apparently have more coyotes. It's a mystery.

Finally, your list of accomplishments. Admittedly, impressive. Despite your frequent and cordial invitations to join all of you in the spirit of competition at St. Francis, I'm not interested. For several reasons. First off, I can't get the time off from work. At least, not schedule it far enough in advance to get the full weekend off. I work Saturdays and am low enough on the totem at work that extra Saturdays off go to the senior bunch before they fall in my lap. I did manage to have this years full weekend off. Found out about it the Thursday before. A little too late to get my registration in and locate ground to hunt on.

Second, it just doesn't appeal to me. I didn't know that was a character flaw.

Now, I could do a job like yours, apparently underpaid, but I have a family to think of first before gallivanting all over the country hunting coyotes because it defines me. And the huge federal pension plan I'm building for my early retirement at 56 is just too damned appealing for me to give it up so I can struggle paycheck to paycheck until I'm 70 and too damned crippled up to be able to even get around. Besides, staying a "working man" helps me to stay in touch with the market for my writing. If you think I write too much now, wait until after I hit 56, retire from Uncle Sam and go hunting all over so I can write even more! I may even send you complimentary copies of my stuff.

Also, your names list. I do, in fact, recognize many of those names beyond the boards, and personally have met several of them. I won't say which one, but you misspelled it and that makes me wonder how well you know him, too.

How many of them would include you on their lists?

Finally, you haven't answered my question.

Have you ever hunted the World Hunt and if so, how did it turn out for you?

Kinda reminds me of Barry Bonds and Mark McGwire, two legends that came under scrutiny because of, well, an indiscretion, if you will. Once the truth was out, all that they'd ever done came under scrutiny as well.

I'll leave it to you to be honest with everyone here. Most regular people know, but there are a lot of recent newcomers that may be inclined to be boot lickers and leg humpers that deserve to know it all. I'm doubting you will, since it's your modes operandi to only offer up that which suits your agenda. You decide. Far be from me to be the one to tell your truth.

So, Scott, maybe I'm misleading, uninformed, and exploitative of the work of others. If you say so, it must be true. But, I know me, and I know that at least I can stand and look others in the eye knowing I'm an honest man.

Rich,

Thanks for the try, but I suspect a day in the field would end badly for one of us and the other would land in jail. I'll pass.

[ February 22, 2007, 07:01 PM: Message edited by: Cdog911 ]
 

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Posted by Cdog911 (Member # 7) on February 22, 2007, 06:51 PM:
 
Wow! And to think that that was the short version. Guess I won't be signing on with Reader's Digest any time too soon.

Numbers update! (dah-da-dah-da-dah-da-dah...)

Calls: 0

Kills: 0

People who like me?: 37,999

People who don't: 1

(I'm not counting the lady that caught me on the street in front of my house last night and told me about her dog barking at something night before last and wanting me to come out and kill the coyotes. But, if it will help "pad" the numbers, I will. (Do ya think I should?)
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on February 22, 2007, 07:44 PM:
 
I can probably respond about the hunt you are hinting at, Lance. Scott was disqualified for splitting his team and making separate stands, and he said so on (?)Posse Country, years ago, I believe?

I am not sticking up for him, but in all honesty, at the time, I agreed with him about stupid and unenforceable hunt rules. I don't know why he intentionally violated the rules, maybe on principle, but he paid for it.

You already have a extensive laundry list of charactor faults so that one probably didn't need mentioning? So, as a favor, I did it; and you are welcome.

Good hunting. LB

PS remember, I'm not sticking up for anybody, and we have to abide by HM policy of not editing posts or deleting stuff that pisses us off. gotta take the good with the bad, and find comfort in knowing that everybody can say their piece (to a fairtheewell) and so does the next guy.
 

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Posted by coyote whacker (Member # 639) on February 22, 2007, 08:37 PM:
 
rich, I did mean that m-44's are to be used on coyote depredation complaints not as a means for private applicators to harvest fur. That would be against the rules and regs. Sure those that set and kill some coyotes when the fur is good will sell them, but not meant to be used like a trap,snare as a means to harvest fur for the most part.

There are plenty of great people who sell nothing, big names become so because they have an ego or want to profit in some way from there endevours. Just because someone has a video, a book, a magazine article, doesn't make them an expert. It means they are giving there thoughts and views, sometimes they can be proven false and misleading under real life circumstances, but those that haven't experienced things under many conditions and circumstances will take that as gospel.
I make zero claims to be the best, but I know from my field experiences and talking to those that know their shit and matching that up with in the field experiences I can separate the wheat from the chaff.

Scruffy I was an Iowa resident for many years, not from Griswold the area we hunted, but I laugh at the mear idea of being charged to shoot does. I have a good friend who lives well that pays 3000.00 a year to lease 1500 acres to deer hunt for 4 weeks out of the year in southern Iowa. I would ask anyone not local to go down with bow or shotgun in hand to hunt bucks and find a place from red oak east and south and not pay to hunt!!!! By not local I mean not a friend or long resident of the area, not going to happen in this day and age, too much money to be had by the 30 point chasers.

Scruffy easy to say when you have small farms and feed lot type operations, it shows you know little of open range operations and most guys that have sheep in Iowa have less than 200 head, that is a generous figure and keep them real close to human activity, big differance in practices from Iowa and the western U.S.

I also had an Iowa license and ran my own ADC business, I took the test passed with flying colors. The DNR must see a need or why license private guys to do the work and charge? Problem is too many are cheap and think everything should be done free of charge, no matter the time involved or expertise.Many think I should have come at no cost to them, how is that better than those that pay into a program?

I had plenty that called after calling the local CO and wanted me to drive 25-40 miles to solve a wildlife issue and balked at the notion I charged for my time, gas and services. Will a furnace repairman charge you if your not bright enough to figure out your pilot light is out and you had no heat? Or would he come free of charge and light it for you? If the electrican came to see why you had no lights or hot water and found the breaker was flipped is he comming free of charge? Or at the least are you getting a service call charge?

Get real scruffy.
 

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Posted by blakyote (Member # 1064) on February 22, 2007, 09:41 PM:
 

quote:

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Instead, we write beyond the first person sense. We contact recognizable and experienced experts in the field, conduct interviews, do our research and assemble a piece that conveys useful information to our readers.

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anyway, we don't need any wildlife programs here and we don't need to pay someone to kill coyotes with taxes. There's more than enough dog wagons (both sight hounds and dogs that track on smell, mostly sniffers down here), spot/stalk, callers, trucks, etc to keep the coyote in check, atleast enough they don't cause mass killings requiring the govt to step in.

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Scruffy easy to say when you have small farms and feed lot type operations, it shows you know little of open range operations and most guys that have sheep in Iowa have less than 200 head, that is a generous figure and keep them real close to human activity, big differance in practices from Iowa and the western U.S.

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I also had an Iowa license and ran my own ADC business, I took the test passed with flying colors. The DNR must see a need or why license private guys to do the work and charge? Problem is too many are cheap and think everything should be done free of charge, no matter the time involved or expertise.Many think I should have come at no cost to them, how is that better than those that pay into a program?

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I had plenty that called after calling the local CO and wanted me to drive 25-40 miles to solve a wildlife issue and balked at the notion I charged for my time, gas and services. Will a furnace repairman charge you if your not bright enough to figure out your pilot light is out and you had no heat? Or would he come free of charge and light it for you? If the electrican came to see why you had no lights or hot water and found the breaker was flipped is he comming free of charge? Or at the least are you getting a service call charge?

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Get real scruffy.

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I take it your ADC operation in Iowa flopped?

And I might be picking up a new farm to call, farmer said he's having problems with coyotes, he was given my name by a farmer who's ground I call and have taken a few coyotes off of in the last year. I'm not charging the farmers to kill there coyotes, but they also don't charge me to hunt their ground. Works for me.

There's no money to be made here off of coyotes, but it sure opens gates and lets me hunt alot of places.

later,
scruffy

[ February 23, 2007, 10:00 AM: Message edited by: scruffy ]
 

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Posted by nd coyote killer (Member # 40) on February 23, 2007, 08:10 AM:
 
Scott what hunt in ND did you win. I didn't know that you come up to any and would love to get a chance to compare some notes and run a few things by you. Do you still come up here to hunt any of them?
 

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Posted by coyote whacker (Member # 639) on February 23, 2007, 01:19 PM:
 
scruffy it is all not coyote depredation that is involved in ADC. You get lciensed in Iowa for many reasons, you can't trap beaver 365 or coyotes for that matter, only calling is open year round and you had to keep reports on all species killed and when.

You have skunks,coons,bats,muskrats in dikes etc, you can't kill any of them legally in Iowa year round except for calling coyotes. traps,snares etc all are under a season.

You get as many suburban complaints as you do rural and the cost has nothing to do with economic gain or loss to a degree. If someone wants a coon out of there attic, or a skunk from living in the ol shed eting cat food, you must make a determination as what the removal cost are worth to you, not all people want to deal with or have the means to deal with these things.

I'm not saying Iowa needs a program, I'm saying that as Iowa contiues to populate and more critters come knocking on the home, people need an avenue to go to, they must also relize that these are services and what can Joe homeowner 25 miles from your house on 12 acres offer you in return for services rendered?

Without a ADC license you can't help the farmer out with beaver complaints in the summer, sure he could wait until prime fur season, how much corn or trees is he willing to loose in the mean time? He needs to answer that question, or the golf course or new house by the pond with B&B trees that set them back 180.00-300.00 a pop how much is it worth to them to get rid of those beaver?

Many cities across the country are seeing major advancements in ADC type work as they expand housing developments, you see the rising need for this type of work and not many are going to do it for free just to be a nice guy are they? You going to remove bats from a house free of charge scruffy? If you are I'll give the names of 5 people in Iowa that will call you tomorrow. They would be than happy to have you come out and use your expertise.

Also I have some good friends who are real ethical hunters let me know where I can send them to bowhunt and shotgun hunt first season in southern Iowa free of charge to get that wall hanger.They would really like that and I'm sure offer you a small gift.
 

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Posted by scruffy (Member # 725) on February 23, 2007, 01:51 PM:
 
CW, I'm not interested in talking about other varmints or golf courses bats in roofs, I was talking about coyotes in this thread. Last I checked I can be a coyote hunter without being a bat hunter?

I can see this conversation, since it's now straying to talking about beavers, is near an end, LOL.

And I imagine I'm not interested in a "small gift" from some guys looking for a "free" buck hunt. Maybe they should try offering their "small gift" to the farmer, see if that helps???

It's ironic really, you complain that farmers want you to come out and remove varmints for free. Then you turn around and complain when farmers won't let you hunt their ground for free. If you feel you should charge for your service why shouldn't they charge for theirs, after all they fed the deer. They're not called corn fed deer for nothing.

later,
scruffy

[ February 23, 2007, 02:18 PM: Message edited by: scruffy ]
 

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Posted by coyote whacker (Member # 639) on February 23, 2007, 02:44 PM:
 
Problem being the deer cause them damage and they complain about the numbers, and when you have pay to hunt you don't get doe's shot no one is going to pay to shoot an anterless deer, so how are they helping themselves out by going to pay to hunt? They make money off of the racks and the problem contiues with the guise that I'm recouping my losses, a never ending cycle.

Wildlife programs entail more than just coyotes scruffy.You thought the license was just a ploy for the DNR take take money from sapps like me remember. If I remember right the license was 15.00 or 20.00 per year I'm betting barely enough to cover the administraion cost.

Beaver cause major economic loss nation wide, that is just a fact, if you like look up some research on them, look at Mass a state that outlawed trapping and see what the dollar figures of damage comes too in that state alone.Backed up sewage lines and waterways causing flooding. ADC entails more than just coyotes.

No one thinks they need assistance until it hits them in the pocket book, then they see the light.
 

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Posted by Wiley E (Member # 108) on February 23, 2007, 03:02 PM:
 
Tim,

Couple more things I forgot to address:

TB: "If you don't like the way Byron South chatters on his videos, don't buy them."

TB: "During your visit here last fall, you were accusing people of "Prostituting the Industry"

Let's talk about this for a minute. First off, I never addressed anyone specifically in my comment about "prostituion of the industry". I simply made the statement and I defined it as those who sell others hard work and knowledge for their own personal gain and notoriety. I also pointed out that some, not Lance, do not even bother to give credit to the originator of the information they sell. Worse yet, some misinterpret the information that they have received and bad mouth it on their videos because their too damn ignorant and inexperienced to understand how it works. Want an example? Leonard's "magic mist" was bad mouthed as a COVER SCENT when it's intent was a means to stop coyotes to create eyeshine during night calling. That is a perfect example of something that absolutely infuriates me. Not only a total lack of respect but an incredible amount of arrogance. If memory serves me correctly, Ronnie Robinson thanked me for taking the stand I did because he was obviously given the same shaft.

I didn't even know who Byron South was and he took exception to my comments and reacted as he did. I had never even heard of the guy! Now you are a smart guy Tim, you tell me how that would appear to you.

TB: "You don't like the Name that Ronnie Robison picked for a new call? Try coming up with your own name and market your own call!"

I have no problems with Ronnie Robinson, in fact I don't remember that I have ever met the guy other than what he posts on the forum. My issue is with the concept that a coyote would identify this sound as an "estrous chirp". I think the title is misleading. If you and others don't think so, WONDERFUL! WHAT A COUNTRY HUH? I had no idea that the "estrous chirp" concept was being marketed. Doesn't change my opinion.

I had a lot of time to think today about previous debates I have had on the internet.

Asa Lenon - on human scent.

Tell me Tim, do you think young trappers should be led to believe that they have to wear rubber boots and change out of them each time they make a set?

Ed Sceery on calling with the wind.

Tell me Tim, do you think young callers should be led to believe that they can successfully call coyotes WITH THE WIND in SD, ND, WY, and other states with similar habitat?

Should I have just laughed and went on my way?

Rich Cronk on what makes a good howler?

Do you think I was wrong to tell Rich Cronk about ways he could improve his call to minimize dead spots and pitch jumps? WHICH HE HAS BTW!

Rich Higgins on research studies.

Do you think I was wrong to challenge Rich Higgins on the validity of studies and how applicable the results of those studies are to areas outside of that "snapshot in time"?

Critics of the NTA.

Was I wrong to point out the truth about the NTA or should I have left baseless allegations remain unchallenged?

Critics of the Best Management Practices in trapping.

Was I wrong to point out the facts of how the bmp protocals were established and that bmps were not a conspiracy to end trapping but rather to save trapping?

Bob Wendt on everything. LOL!

Should I have let young trappers believe that 90% of the peg leg coyotes were caused by, brace yourself now, FENCE HANGING as in how deer get hung up on fences?

The list of debates and stepped on toes is long and distinguished but WHAT VALUE DO YOU PLACE ON SOMEONE CHALLENGING POPULIST OPINIONS????

Once again, keep in mind, you can change the channel.

Sure, you can argue that I could do it in a more "user friendly" manner but that's not me. I want to challenge people to defend their beliefs to see if they can back their position and to see if I might be wrong.

I have no problem being the "BILL MARTZ CLONE" or any other title you can come up with and I have no problems isolating myself from the herd if that's what it takes.

You see Tim, I was the recipient of some real bad information in the trapping fraternity thanks to the "fast buck artists" and it cost me dearly. I thank Craig O'Gorman for straightening me out on a lot of that bullsh*t and I learned one thing. If you want to learn about taking coyotes in numbers, you go to someone who is taking coyotes in numbers. For all the things I might criticize Craig for, he is a hell of a trapper and nobody can take that away from him.

One other thing I thought of, did you notice how Rich Cronk, Rich Higgins, Leonard, Cal Taylor, Q Wagoner and others who actually know me don't take offense? I have debated with every one of those guys. Doesn't that seem kinda strange to you? Those guys know my motives.

You have a good friend who dislikes me but I don't feel the same way about him and you know why? Because I believe he can back the smack. He gets critized for shooting a .17 but he stood his ground. He was criticized for continual calling instead of intermittent but he stood his ground. He was criticized for not utilizing howling but he stood his ground. He was criticized for not killing unprime coyotes but he stood his ground? I respect that! Does he kill coyotes? Damn straight he does. I saw his video and it's obvious he's been in the game. Regardless what he thinks of me, I respect him because I have enough experience to recognize his experience. His story didn't change!

So drum that around in your head for awhile and we'll finish this over a beer someday.

I can understand your disdain for WS and I don't take offense to that either. You're not trying to be somebody you are not and I know you fought the good fight for trapping. Your actions speak louder than any words.

edit: I just thought of something I need to add here...

Let me tell you a story. A couple years after we won Rawlins, I had to decline from going because my wife's folks 50th wedding anniversary was at the same time. Instead, my 2 former calling partners decided to go out and hunt the same area that we hunted when we won. Also let me add that the reason we won the year we did is because the wind was blowing which helped level the playing field. The year after we won, we called the same area. There was a sheep producer in the area and WS had been in there just before us and shot the hell out of the coyotes. I knew something was wrong because all I could pull in were loose ends. No family groups and no pairs. Didn't find out until later. Anyway, the next year my partners went and hunted the same area. I called a WS supervisor friend of mine who lives in Rock Springs to find out if WS had worked the area. He told me that this particular sheep producer had been having killing problems, that he had requested service, but that the plane was down for annual and he didn't think it would be in the air until Monday. WHOOPEE, I thought, my buddies are really going to kick butt. The night before the contest they called to tell me that they had located numerous family groups in the area and they were going to win this contest despite those with private leases. Keep in mind this is public ground. The next evening my partner called me and he was absolutely pissed. The first stand of the morning resulted in 3 coyotes running in with 2 other family groups in the waiting. Out of nowhere the WS plane shows up and rolls those coyotes right at their feet and went on to shoot the next two family groups they had located and most of the rest of the coyotes in the area. Can you imagine?

Now both of these partners of mine are cattlemen and both of them have requested my service in the past when they were too busy to remove problem coyotes because they both calve early in prime coyote country. I've even bought and fed their calves. The one partners calves I have bought and fed for 5 years. They both understand the ADC side of the coin and they both are passionate about coyote hunting. Imagine what a letdown it was to plan everything out, lay your money on the table in the calcutta, go to your honeyhole and watch WS roll those coyotes at your feet. To make matters worse, the plane buzzed their truck. Neither one of them will ever forget that incident.

My point? Don't you think for one second I don't know both sides of this coin. Personally, I would NEVER work a complaint like this during a contest hunt ESPECIALLY ON PUBLIC LAND. I would have the courtesy to wait until the boys were done or at least make sure nobody was calling there before I hunted. My partners claimed the WS man gave them the cold shoulder.

Do you know how I came to be partners with my most recent calling partner? When a lot of guys was cussing my previous partner and I for winning the biggest contest in SD 2 years in a row, he came up and shook our hands and congratulated us. I taught the man everything I know about coyotes and he's killed a pile since.

~SH~

[ February 23, 2007, 04:32 PM: Message edited by: Wiley E ]
 

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Posted by Cal Taylor (Member # 199) on February 23, 2007, 03:21 PM:
 
That last post may be the best of yours I have seen Scott. It sums things up pretty well. Posts that question the validity of people and things they post will get you booted from many places, as Higgins, Vic Carlson, and I already know. I'm glad for Leonards and the freedom to post as you see fit without the axe of the moderators looming. On the subject of Ronnie Robinson, he has been at the recieving end of some bad business, and knows well about stolen ideas. It happens, and will continue to happen to most guys that come up with new and valid concepts in the hunting industry. I respect O'Gorman also in the fact that if you read alot of his writings, he gives credit where credit is due. He may have changed something a bit to fit his style and location, or have improved something, but he knows where most of the stuff and ideas he uses originated and will say so.
 

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Posted by Wiley E (Member # 108) on February 23, 2007, 04:11 PM:
 
nd: "Scott what hunt in ND did you win."

I honestly do not know the name of the town. I think it was New Salem but I'm not sure. I know it was W. of Bismark on the Interstate.

A friend, Todd Heid, invited me to the hunt and I called with his hunting partner. It was a cold and windy day. Imagine that huh? The type of conditions I love for contest hunting because it requires a changeup in strategy.

Actually, we tied for first with another team.

nd: "I didn't know that you come up to any and would love to get a chance to compare some notes and run a few things by you."

I'll send you an email. I'd enjoy visiting with a fellow "DAKOTON" YAH? I nose quite a few of dem dare chermans yah cuss I am von.

nd: "Do you still come up here to hunt any of them?"

Nope, that was my one and only ND coyote calling competition adventure.

Heids beat us in Rawlins a couple times so it was bitter sweet to beat them on their own turf with their hunting buddy as a partner.

Todd Heid is an excellent coyote hunter!

~SH~
 

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Posted by Rich (Member # 112) on February 23, 2007, 04:52 PM:
 
"Do you think I was wrong to tell Rich Cronk about ways he could improve his call to minimize dead spots and pitch jumps? WHICH HE HAS BTW!"
--------------------------------------
Scott,
I still think about that deal fairly often. That little rift turned out to be a good thing for me and for coyote callers. And to realize that the whole thing started when you stated that the PERFECT howler had not yet been invented. The PERFECT howler STILL hasn't been invented, but I'm still working on it.
 

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Posted by Cdog911 (Member # 7) on February 23, 2007, 07:07 PM:
 
Scott,

No desperation here, friend. Just stating a fact because there are a lot of guys watching this thread, getting to know you and what you're really about, that weren't on the old Shade Tree board, or weren't at Predator Masters when that thread first came out. In fact, at the time, I hadn't the foggiest idea who you were.

It was only after you came to HM and started your crusades that one of these guys connected the dots for me. I just think it's important that before someone gives you their loyalty, that they know what you're about.

And Rich, I'm glad you're such a forgiving soul. I'm not, especially en lieu of the venomous attacks this man has decided to direct at me. It's ironic that I can be singled out because he has an unsubstantiated critical personal opinion about me and what I do, whereas you are critical toward me when I state an incontravertible fact of record, supopoirted by his admission and a public apology. Hell, my kids both knew by 3 years of age that apologies are hollow when you should have known better than to do it in the first place. It's one thing to make a mistake. It's something else entirely to willfully do something with the intent to violate a rule.

How about this: Scott, I'm sorry you don't like me.

There. Does that make things all better now? LOL

Re Krusty and you remarks. Don't try to make yourself look all warm and fuzzy now, Scott. You attempted to burn me by using K as your point of reference. I appreciate your helping the man out, and you're right when you say that most all of us had given up on him when you chose to help him along. That was a nice thing to do and I applaud your efforts. But, you still said what you said and meant it the way I took it, and I doubt that I'm alone in that assessment. Maybe an apology would make things all better.

I have a question for you, Scott? Have you ever been hunting in the eastern half of Kansas? More specifically, the area I hunt? It is a unique area as far as the amount of farm ground versus pasture, river bottom, creek and timber.

A simple yes or no will suffice.

The reason I inquire is because a lot of guys that hunt north and west of me in typical "western" areas are quick to accuse me of making excuses about that 11%. Some of those same guys have come here and not fared too well. Not because they aren't excellent callers. They are, and their skills as callers have little to do with the results because of other extraneous factors.

I'd just like to know what your first hand experience is in this part of this state? I'm not talking cornfields in eastern S or ND. I've hunted corn circles in NE and it's a world of difference. Those are focal points for coyotes and a predictable draw for predators whereas my coyotes have a veritable buffet of prey sources around here. Mainly, I want to know your qualifications for being critical of my numbers. You're damned quick to attack, but where's your on-site experience?

I think it's important that we compare apples to apples here, once and for all, despite your insistance that we compare apples (ND) to oranges (E. KS). That way, we have an accurate representation of who can and cannot call. Admittedly, I've never hunted in SD, but I have friends that hunt up that way every other year or so and they tell me that there and NE are relatively similar. So, if you will indulge me, allow me to work some numbers for you using my time in NE as my "western" experience.

Bear in mind that this is a little "study". The variable being assessed is location and its influence on calling success. All other things are equal. I'm doing the calling, all daytime, same time of the year and as we know, a coyote is a coyote is a coyote....

You know my numbers here. Let's review so you don't have to look back. Coyotes called and seen on 30% of stands. Of those called, 38% killed. Number killed relative to total stands called? 11%. yeah, I know. Same ol', same ol'.

Compare that to my numbers under similar conditions up your way. All are from hunting with your friend and compadre Q who you hold in the highest regard. Me, too. I verified these numbers with him earlier today in a phone call while he and Shaw are down in TX just to make sure I was accurate.

We've hunted a total of four days together, making a total of 42 stands. From those stands, I called 38 coyotes. (Q makes me do all the calling. I let him do the shooting. Play to our strengths sort of thing.) Of the 38 coyotes we've called, 20 are dead. (We killed two more that we bumped, but twenty were called and killed.)

Crunching those numbers where comparing apples to apples, good country versus where I live...

I called coyotes on 90% of those stands. Of those called, we killed at a rate of 53%, and compared to total stands, we killed on 48% of stands when I was calling.

Now, let's go back and look at your earlier statement that you aren't satisfied unless you see coyotes on 50% of stands, and if you kill at least 50% of those seen. Ya know? That's really a pretty legitimate objective right there, but when you do the math, 50% of 50%, half of half, is only a quarter, or 25%. (How many of the rest of you caught that when he first said it?Teeeewist!)

I can only presume that you picked a safe number that probably reflects your actual numbers otherwise it might be difficult to defend, and you haven't told us your numbers yet one way or another, but when I compare my numbers against your personal expectations, it...kinda...looks....like I,.... Hey! I'm not doing too bad by your assessment up there!!! You only expect to kill on a fourth of your stands and I'm gettin' 'er done on nearly half!

Admittedly, I bet your numbers are at least as good and I'm just yanking your chain, but the numbers I cite for myself are accurate and provable. Just ask Q. My point is that a guy from here can go there and do that well, with everything else being the same. The same technique. The same sounds. Same strategies. The only difference is the landscape. In fact, I don't even argue that Q has more coyotes there than we do. I think we're about equal. In fact, we may have more. Why the responses are so vastly different here is open to pure conjecture, and I've attempted that, more as an exercise in fun, but you just have to refute and reject everything because all you hear are "excuses". Especially interesting when you have no first hand experience here. At least, I admit I can tell you nothing about SD coyotes.

As far as the issue of my story changing, you're incorrigible. LOL Stubborn as hell, too. It never has changed. Maybe I used one word in place of another, but I don't see that the intent of the phrase ever changed. At least, not anywhere but in your perception. You are really very good at what you do in twisting the facts. I have to hand you that one. That's ironic, too, since you're the calling crusader when it comes to challenging what the literature says and to trust no one. But, whatever gets your point across, huh? You'll step on whoever's toes you can to be the alpha dog. LMAO

You told me a day or two back to put my money where my mouth is. Okay. In a manner of speaking. I presume you'll be at St. Francis this next time around. Long ways from home, huh?

Matt and I would like to invite you and your partner to hunt our land. All 58,000 acres of it. It's all yours. We'll guide you and get you to all the best places we have. I say that sincerely. You trust and respect Q and he knows me well. My word is as good as gold that I'll get you to our best places and he'll back that up. You know Brent Rueb. He went to several of those places - the opnes the mud would allow us to get to - just a month ago and commented on how good some of them looked and the tracks we had around. He'll vouch for their being coyotes around. Now, I can't offer any security that we won't encounter dog wagons. We have to share and share alike around here adn that's just the cross we bear. If we do, I'll introduce you to those guys. They think highly of gubmint trappers. LOL

Since you say that you think 6-8 coyotes a day up there is a decent day for a good caller, and you say that we have more coyotes here than you do in SD, I don't see 8 coyotes a day as being a big problem. Eight coyotes the first day and maybe a paltry two on Sunday morning before you have to head back oughtta put you in good standing at check in, shouldn't it? I've never in over 39 years hunting seen anyone kill ten coyotes in that time frame around here - not even the dog wagons - but we'll get you on the ground and you can do your best to get 'er done. How about it? Your statements against mine. What you know versus what I don't. Braggin' rights. I'll even pay for your motel lodging Saturday night. You let me know.

Oh, and before I sign off, I saw something you should be made aware of today. Several of my mail customers subscribe to Petersen's Hunting magazine, and they have an article in the new issue starting on page 66 entitled, "Song Dog Savvy" by M.D. Johnson. In that article, he interviews, cites, quotes and relies heavily upon statements and opinions by a guy named Chad Belding from Ohio-based Zink Calls.

I think you oughtta punch both those rat bastards square in the mouth.

Crusade on!!!
 

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Posted by Rich (Member # 112) on February 23, 2007, 07:50 PM:
 
"And Rich, I'm glad you're such a forgiving soul. I'm not, especially en lieu of the venomous attacks this man has decided to direct at me. It's ironic that I can be singled out because he has an unsubstantiated critical personal opinion about me and what I do, whereas you are critical toward me when I state an incontravertible fact of record, supopoirted by his admission and a public apology. Hell, my kids both knew by 3 years of age that apologies are hollow when you should have known better than to do it in the first place. It's one thing to make a mistake. It's something else entirely to willfully do something with the intent to violate a rule."
--------------------------------------
Lance,
I was simply pointing out the fact that Scott had already admitted to his mistake. That was a long time ago. Scott is having some fun with you now, and I'm sure he knows that the portion of kansas that you call is a lot different than the areas located west of you. You are trying to call pressured coyotes in a difficult area. Not many men understand what it is like trying to call pressured coyotes better than I do. I'm sure that Scott understands that also.
 

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Posted by scruffy (Member # 725) on February 23, 2007, 08:35 PM:
 
CW -

quote:

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Problem being the deer cause them damage and they complain about the numbers, and when you have pay to hunt you don't get doe's shot no one is going to pay to shoot an anterless deer, so how are they helping themselves out by going to pay to hunt?

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Wildlife programs entail more than just coyotes scruffy.You thought the license was just a ploy for the DNR take take money from sapps like me remember. If I remember right the license was 15.00 or 20.00 per year I'm betting barely enough to cover the administraion cost.

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Beaver cause major economic loss nation wide, that is just a fact, if you like look up some research on them, look at Mass a state that outlawed trapping and see what the dollar figures of damage comes too in that state alone.Backed up sewage lines and waterways causing flooding. ADC entails more than just coyotes.

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Scruffy you know I wasn't talking license sales, I'm talking paying to hunt on ground to shoot those doe's and if thats happening you have quite the gig going on there for sure LOL. Or was it that no one you new charged for hunting?

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If people are willing to pay for the tag they'll be willing to pay for the ground, if they don't have any friends or relatives or can't ask really nicely and knock on some door to find a farmer that's willing to let the hunt for free. It's their only legal option, if you're not willing to pay for the ground don't pay for the tag.

And yes, I don't understand the "gig" the DNR's got going, but thousands of doe tags are bought by non residents, at a couple hundred a pop for the tag and the license, I don't know why, it baffles me, it really does, I don't know where these people are coming from, but they come, alot of them. I wish I had an answer but don't, it's one of the DNR's cash cows.

And once they get here, if they haven't found a place to hunt before coming out here, are caught over a barrel, and the old saying "beggers can't be choosers" is true. And some farmers know it and make you pay. Surprised?

Edit: if you go back and look at my original post I believe I asked if you had out of state plates and said that I've been known to charge out of staters to hunt my ground. So it certainly wasn't me that said I din't know of anyone that charged to deer hunt, LOL.

You know, when an Iowan goes out west he often has to pay a "tresspass fee" or whatever you want to call it to hunt pdogs, coyotes, pheasants, whatever on private land to the landowner.

Why is it different for you when you come from the west to Iowa??? We don't eat pdogs when we go out west. Atleast you get to bring home corn fed deer, LOL.

later,
scruffy

[ February 23, 2007, 09:49 PM: Message edited by: scruffy ]
 

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Posted by scruffy (Member # 725) on February 23, 2007, 10:00 PM:
 
CW - Hers's what you originally said and what I originally said:

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Last time I hunted southern Iowa, deer crawling all over themselves on a late season doe only hunt we actually had a few that wanted 100.00 per doe shot on their place LOL!

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"actually had a few" A few??? Just a few??? From your later posts you'd think it was all of them, LOL.

My original response:

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Did you drive up to the farmer with out of state plates? (If I see out of state plates I either say "no" or "show me the $$$". )

I don't have a problem finding ground to hunt deer on here (southern Iowa), more and more the farmers I ask to coyote hunt on ask me if I deer hunt and want to take some deer off also (I usually decline).

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Lance: "Compare that to my numbers under similar conditions up your way. All are from hunting with your friend and compadre Q who you hold in the highest regard. Me, too. I verified these numbers with him earlier today in a phone call while he and Shaw are down in TX just to make sure I was accurate.

We've hunted a total of four days together, making a total of 42 stands. From those stands, I called 38 coyotes. (Q makes me do all the calling. I let him do the shooting. Play to our strengths sort of thing.) Of the 38 coyotes we've called, 20 are dead. (We killed two more that we bumped, but twenty were called and killed.)

Crunching those numbers where comparing apples to apples, good country versus where I live...

I called coyotes on 90% of those stands. Of those called, we killed at a rate of 53%, and compared to total stands, we killed on 48% of stands when I was calling."

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sdyote: "You stated that the year you won Rawlins was because the wind blew and leveled the playing field. Would you go into more detail as to why you feel that way? I'm assuming that you feel the wind blowing gives you an advantage over most other callers? If so, how do you change your tactics to be a more effective caller in the wind? Only reason I ask is because I'm one of the callers that struggles once the wind gets over that 15mph which happens quite often here is So Dak."

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First of all, I should have corrected that statement to read "because the wind blew HARD". The wind always blows in Wyoming.

First, you need to understand how sound carries from a coyote's standpoint. Wind, weather, and topography all affect how far sound carries.

Instead of calling as we normally do against the wind, we found a canyon running East/West with the wind from the North and made 10 minute stands working our way from the East to the West. We do a lot of walking. A LOT OF WALKING! I won't call with anyone who can't walk at least 10 miles in a day dragging coyotes.

You risk coyotes getting your wind on the first stand but after that, you can usually pick them off before they get your scent. Strong winds break up scent cones and coyotes don't get your scent in strong winds like they do in light breezes. Coyotes also respond differently in stronger winds. They don't want to circle downwind and travel any more than they have to either. I also use sounds that penetrate the wind but I will not elaborate on that.

Coyotes cannot hear the vehicle noise as well either so you can get by driving closer to your stands. This all comes with experience.

~SH~

[ February 24, 2007, 02:04 PM: Message edited by: Wiley E ]
 

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Posted by Cdog911 (Member # 7) on February 24, 2007, 02:25 PM:
 
Tim,

You said, "You said you called or seen (called, I don't count the 'seens' in these figures) 74 coyotes and killed 28 coyotes. with a call in on 1 of every 3 stands. So that leaves you with 46 coyotes that have been conditioned to the call, i can see why they are a little more difficult to call in a second time."

First off, thank God for the new tabbed browsing feature on the upgraded IE program. Before now, it was Firefox or doing things the hard way. LOL

Anyway, to what you wrote. For a long time, that was a concern of mine, and one that I agree still has some impact to a certain extent. But I've gone back to those places, called over that same spot from a different angle, a different place, at a different time of day and with different sounds - sometimes the same day - and still called what I feel are members of that same group back in and scored kills.

Last year brings two in particular to mind. I brought in a pair and had ample time to look them both over, noting that one had a prominent patch of hair loss on the right hip. I chose the other, even if it was fifty yards further away, and killed it. The first one wanted nothing to do with ki-yi's and whoops to give me a chance at a double, so I refrained from wild running shots and let her go. A couple hours later, I went to the bottom of that section where I was pretty sure that coyote had gone for refuge, and approached it from the opposite direction where I sat down and gave just two lost puppy howls. (For the record, I have no idea what a lost puppy sounds like, nor do I know how the sound I made was interpreted by other coyotes in the area, but I know what I would sound like if I was a young coyote and on my own and so I made a lone howl* that was particularly sad, distressed and mournful, then waited.) It took him a while, but about twenty minutes later, a coyote came cruising across, forty yards in front of me with its head up telescoping and looking all about. I shot it and when I got to it, I rolled it over and found that it had a big hairless spot on the right hip. I managed to do that several times the past few years and have become convinced that coyotes have shorter memories than most of us give them discredit for.

Earlier in the season, I called a group of four young of the year coyotes that all bore identical black blanket back markings. I killed one and shot like hell for a double, but didn't connect. Over the next three weeks, Matt and I managed to go back there and mop up the other three, two on the same day about an hour and three hundred yards apart. If they had a growing aversion to calling, they sure didn't show it. I know it happens, but it isn't a hard and fast rule in my experience.

* - why do we call them "lone howls" since we generally offer them in sets of two? Lonesome howl really isn't any better since we don't know if we sound like or are perceived as lonely at all. We may just sound "talkative".

Based upon my own observations in this area, I think the call shyness comes not so much from being called at, by me or anyone else, but by being shot at time and again, from the first day of dove season to the end of January, by everything human that drives by. You used to be able to get "a" deer tag, which you would go out, fill, and go home. Deer season was ten days long, only had one, and it was often surprising if I ran into deer hunters at all while out calling. Winters and Falls were cold and the only decent weeks for hunting pheasants and quail were the first two weekends, after which everyone hung their shotguns up and waited for the Spring turkey season.

Nowadays, you can get as many as five deer tags and the weather has been so nice that everyone is running dogs, hunting pheasants every weekend and often times on weekdays. They've added not only extra days to the deer season, but in some units, they've actually added extra seasons. Lease hunting has locked the gates on much of the area forcing all those five tag deer hunters onto the same shrinking amount of real estate as I'm trying to call on. Even open range is no refuge. This year, I was sneaking into this big four square pasture to call and rounded this hill only to find this huge custom motorhome anchored down with their TV antenna up and the generator running. Now that's roughing it.

I was surprised this year not to see even more of an increase in dog wagon contacts as I did last season when a lot of those gusy stayed close to home because of gas prices. But, they were about the same this year as last, which was a sharp increase from the year prior. In talking with them, they said that the better price on coyotes north and west couldn't offset $3 a gallon gas for them. This year, the blizzard shut down much of the areas they usually hit, as well as mange in NE, causing them to stay at home after Christmas, which worked out okay for them since we saw a slight increase in our coyote prices in response to the short harvest caused by the blizzard and the bugs.

Coyote hunters aside, everyone that leaves a truck in this state seems to feel the need to shoot a coyote in the ass on sight. Geez, that pisses me off. I've seen guys blow great deer hunting blinds because they just had to shoot a coyote that crossed in front of them, even if it did ruin their hunting for the morning. That, I just don't get.

You said, "I'm not near as good as you or Scott but i have called my share of conditioned coyotes and i think you are not telling them what they want to hear."

I don't know if I'm "good", but I do know that I can always be better. From what I hear, Scott is pretty good. Not real pleasant to correspond with, but pretty good at calling. I can say that I have an extensive repertoire at my disposal, from any one of a hundred calls I have to use, mine and a lot of others, howlers, and e-callers, I try it all with often the same results. I also wholeheartedly agree in the benefits of offering them a variety until they hear something that trips their trigger. And I, too, have hunted with Rich. In the early season, around here, that kitchen sink works well, but when the switch goes 'off", it's all the day down.

You said, "I know my calling skills sucked compared to Rich H. and he was proably chuckleing when i was calling, but the sounds i produced got the job done."

That's what counts. I've called with a lot of guys, and I heard a lot of jackrabbits pitch ghosts when I trained racing greyhounds. Rarely did the two sound anything alike. LOL But I've seen some of those gawd-awful sounding guys call coyotes. Consistently.

"Something different and thats what the coyotes wanted in order to respond." That's why. You're spot on.

You said, "i can't speak for Scott."

LOL, I don't think anyone has ever spoken for Scott. First off, he wouldn't allow it. Second, why would you wanna be like that?

"Now lets say Scott did come down there and does what you don't think he can do, then what! Well you bow to the master so to speak, and listen to the man or keep on doing what you are doing now?"

I'm all about giving credit where credit is due. I'd be very much interested in seeing and watching a man who has made calling coyotes his profession take his best shot at them. We've tried everything I've ever learned and everything ever addressed on this and every other calling forum, and before the web, personal correspondence and face to face discussion and with very nominal improvements in results. In my opinion, the issue here may only be, in small part, a matter of calling prowess as it is the willingness for a coyote to show itself in the light of day.

If Scott came here and put up decent numbers - he says "decent" is 6-10 in a day in a place like this with good pop'ns - then I will be the one to take the pictures and gladly show them to all of you, proclaiming that he is a helluva coyote caller. In fact, just about everyone around here that calls any amount at all would be interested in such a feat. Especially me. It would give me inspiration, knowing that there are still ways to call them, but that I just haven't figured them out yet. Damned coyotes.

Admittedly, this is the last place I would go if I was hunting a contest hunt. Let alone for my reputation. LOL Look at how hard I have to work now to defend mine when posting my local numbers?

As far as bowing to the master, so to speak or otherwise, I bow to no one. I'll leave that for the boot lickers.
 

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Posted by Cdog911 (Member # 7) on February 24, 2007, 06:26 PM:
 
Damn, Scott. I missed that last rant.

I don't know which of us is further under the other's skin.

Say and think what you want. You may not know me 'as a person', but I'm pretty much sure I have a good handle on you. Spin it how you want, you ignorant bastard. I recall the story behind that four corners hunt. Not quite the way I heard it from in impartial third party. You forgot the part about how you lectured to everyone how to kill those coyotes down there, only to be stood up. That's how I heard it. Maybe my source was wrong. Same guy that told me you wouldn't have the balls to put your name on the line down here. Consider the offer withdrawn.

Crusade on.

[ February 24, 2007, 06:39 PM: Message edited by: Cdog911 ]
 

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Posted by Wiley E (Member # 108) on February 24, 2007, 08:04 PM:
 
I've give you the last word Lance. I know how much that means to you at this point.

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Cdog: "I think the call shyness comes not so much from being called at, by me or anyone else, but by being shot at time and again, from the first day of dove season to the end of January, by everything human that drives by."

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One parting question, could you explain to me how drive by shootings can make a coyote "call shy". Are these guys blowing calls as their shooting from the roads? That's certainly an original concept. I'm impressed!

~SH~

[ February 24, 2007, 08:16 PM: Message edited by: Wiley E ]
 

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Posted by BigO (Member # 1062) on February 27, 2007, 02:42 PM:
 
I am by no means an experienced coyote hunter. The only person I will claim to know more than on this subject is someone who doesn't hunt them.

I've shot a couple coyotes by calling this year, which is my first year hunting them. I actually got lucky and called in a double about two weeks ago. Unfortunately for me I didn't know it was a double until I lowered my rifle in time to see the second one running behind some three foot tall CRP about 50 yrds. away.

Anyway, I took the one coyote I called off my second stand to the fur buyer. He had a stack of coyotes to be cleaned on the floor, 8 of them to be exact. He told me, one guy brought them all in at once. Said the guy runs a dog waggon. I haven't seen 8 coyotes in a month of Sundays.

My point is that I believe these dog waggons do create havoc for callers. If there are that many coyotes out there, why aren't I seeing them? I know they are in the areas I hunt, because I see tracks and scat every where. I also see the tell-tale signs of the dog waggons in these same places.

Lance, I've made several stands this year. Some long, some short. I've tried tips I was given on here, I've even talked to other hunters around this area. Some of which told me that I am the only one getting any coyotes with a call that they know of. I've come to understand that I am never going to keep up with the dog waggons, And it's a good thing I enjoy hunting as much as I do killing.

So, I think the Centeral and South Centeral part of Kansas, even though different in terrain. Are both lacking in coyote response to calls. I'm not bitter over the dog waggons, they do what they do. I'll just have to live with it.

Oh yea, I've been in every county in Kansas, not every inch of each county though. I have only seen one or two sheep farms with large heards. The only one I can think of off the top of my head is in Jewell County. The guy runs about 1200-1500 sheep. He tells me, 20 years ago you couldn't go outside without seeing a coyote. He says now he sees one or two every so often. I asked him if he loses any lambs to coyotes. He said he maybe loses one lamb every two years to coyotes. I don't know how he comes up with that number but I accept it.
 

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Posted by Krustyklimber (Member # 72) on March 09, 2007, 08:42 PM:
 
Lance,

I don't need you to defend me.

I wasn't bothered by what Scott said, other than that he had the facts wrong, and used me improperly as an example.

And if he used me as an example of "somebody worse", that wouldn't offend me, because it's the truth.
My success rate pretty much proves I am the worst coyote caller there is.
That's my own cross to bear, and absolutely not germain to this discussion.

He used me as an example of someone who changed tactics in order to acheive success at calling coyotes instead of making excuses, when in fact I took up trapping to replace unsuccessful calling of coyotes.

Scott owes me nothing, and I seriously doubt he counts me among his friends.

You yourself have misrepresented me as well, because you (apperantly) no more understand my motivation for "what I did", than Scott does about why I took up trapping.

You both would do well to ask me for the actual facts, or not talk about me at all if you don't have them straight.

I certainly hope I am never help up as the measure of "a man" again.
That could be every bit as much of an insult, to me, as you took Scott's statement to be, and pretty much for the same reasons.

Your not smart enough to switch gears like that dumbass Krusty did... and,

He's not half the man a bag of shit like Krusty is?

See how both could be spun into somthing bad?

Good thing for me is, I choose to take both as compliments, and walk away.

Scott,

You were not "the one" who tried to help me, I have had help from many.
One guy actually drove up here in his truck and went calling with me... twice!

You have provided me with the most concrete, black and white, help though.
And I do appreciate that very much.

You are correct that it did come when I was at my worst as far as being "unliked".
But again, I don't see how that's germain to the topic at hand?
Yeah, I was an ass, so?

The "I can't" is stronger than ever, I have given up all hope of success at calling coyotes around here, and no longer try.
Trapping is not a way to calling success, and water trapping is definitely not the way to regularly successful coyote killing.

Even a dumbass like me can see that.

Krusty
 

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