This is topic One for the pakmen to ponder in forum Predator forum at The New Huntmastersbbs!.
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Posted by Rich Higgins (Member # 3) on July 23, 2008, 07:20 PM:
OJ says that coyotes always stop. They always do.
My question: Why do so many callers take running shots? I have paid very close attention to many DVDs and most of them show coyotes cruising past the stand in third gear ignoring the caller's barks, woofs and whistles.
Posted by Steve Craig (Member # 12) on July 23, 2008, 07:41 PM:
Never seen that one. I can stop them most of the time, but not "always". I hate running shots.
I have seen so many misses by guys because they shot while the fox, of coyote was walking, not running, walking!
But in the same vein, I have seen some great shots on running coyotes too. And I have missed stopped coyotes!
I just prefer him stopped is all.
Posted by Kelly Jackson (Member # 977) on July 23, 2008, 07:49 PM:
Rich - I am sure that they do stop, just maybe not within my gun range..........most everybody knows each coyote is different.
PS shooting at running coyotes is fun.
Killing running coyotes, well I don't have to tell you.
I sure wish we still had all the jackrabbits around here that I used to practice on.
Posted by Paul Melching (Member # 885) on July 23, 2008, 07:57 PM:
Probably needs some revision like:
"they somtimes stop they sometimes do"
and if ya can hit em runnin good for you!
Posted by Rich Higgins (Member # 3) on July 23, 2008, 08:21 PM:
Kelly, jacks are the best shooting aid on the planet.
Dang, Paul. Sounds like a nursery rhyme. ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
Posted by Cdog911 (Member # 7) on July 23, 2008, 08:29 PM:
To a certain extent, many of those that blow past us do check up at a hundred yards or two and usually aftyer strategically placing some kind of obstruction between us. In the few cases where they don't, either my partner or I always say it with a wry smile, "They always stop. They always do." As has already been stated, they pretty much all have to eventually stop, or I'd see coyotes running full out across the open prairie all the time.
To answer your early point, I've learned patience I guess. Probably because there are few running shots that I've made worth a damn. As I see it, since I call most of my places fairly often during the season, I figure if one comes running by full out and I either don't have a shot, or I can't get it to stop, I just sit and watch him run off into the sunset knowing that he lives hereabouts somewhere and it's only a matter of time before we meet again*. Next day, or the next weekend, I'll come in from the other side and try a new sound on him to see if I can get him to stand up, or stand still. I've had several WITNESSED instances where I went back three hours later from a different angle and called and killed what appeared to be the same coyote (mangy hip, for instance, on one side that was pretty well a guarantee that it was the same one. In each case, I told the guy with me we were going to do call that coyote back to us and they each asked the same thing... Can you do that? To which I brazenly replied, "I can, I don't know about anyone else you hunt with." Thank God a coyote showed up and made me look good.). I figure that if I let him go by unmolested, all he's experienced is something he heard but couldn't find anything for the source that he liked. If you throw in a gun shot and some spraying gravel, that changes the equation and he becomes learned a bit.
* To avoid having to defend this statement at a later date, this applies to recreational calling when the only one of us that really cares if the coyote gets killed this trip or not is the coyote itself. In an ADC context, this rarely applies and I wasn't talking about those guys.
Posted by Kokopelli (Member # 633) on July 23, 2008, 09:18 PM:
Well......In my experience, contrary to the teachings of Uncle Jay in his otherwise excellent dvd "Coyote Behavior", a coyote doing a "Run-thru Recon" doesn't always stop, or if it does - it doesn't stop where it will do me any good.
So.......personally I often take running shots because my shotgun likes running shots.
In other cases however, most callers (myself included) do not have the skill, experience, or the confidence to let a coyote "escape" and then call it back. Most of us realize that once the call is started, there is nothing we can do to improve the stand. Everything is on the line. If I can stop a coyote in a pre-selected kill zone, everything is sunshine & lollypops. If I can't get it to stop........have I ever mentioned my fondness for the Mini-14??
Posted by 3 Toes (Member # 1327) on July 24, 2008, 05:52 AM:
Thank about it logically Higgins. Technically Jay is correct. They will stop eventually, no one can run forever. It may be over the hill, in the next county, or possibly in the next state, but they will eventually stop. You can't prove him wrong since he didn't define where they will stop, just that they will. ![[Razz]](tongue.gif)
Posted by DAA (Member # 11) on July 24, 2008, 06:45 AM:
Speaking only for myself, and maybe a little bit for my calling partner... We do take a lot of running shots, especially when we are filming.
Keeping in mind that we are only average coyote callers, and below average videographers, here is my take on the running shots...
I take the first high percentage shot I'm offered. If that happens to be a running shot, so be it. If that happens to be a 250 yard standing shot, that's fine too - it doesn't really make any difference to me (unless, Tim hasn't got the camera turned on yet - which has been the cause for a lot of running shots LOL!). And no, "high percentage" and "running" are not always mutually exclusive. An unspooked loping coyote, doing a buzz-by inside of 100 yards, is a big, slow target, pretty much a slam dunk, to me. But often, and especially when trying to film (which we aren't very good at), the coyote has busted us and the running shot is all we are going to get, and it isn't an unspooked loping shot, but it's all we got, so we take it, high percentage or not. Indeed, a lot of the coyotes on our videos, especially the ones I shoot (Tim running the camera), would have been dead before the "record" button ever even gets pushed, if just out hunting and not filming. A lot of the rodeo stands you see on the DVD's, never would have went down like that, if the camera weren't involved.
Bottom line, for me, is between often just not caring whether the coyote has stopped yet or not, and often getting busted and not believing I have the option to wait, a pretty good portion of all my shots end up being on moving coyotes. Much more so when filming than when not. But I kill most of coyotes I shoot at, regardless, so I'm not sure it makes any difference. I don't care, either way, I know that.
- DAA
Posted by Rich Higgins (Member # 3) on July 24, 2008, 07:59 AM:
I agree with Kokopelli, a coyote coming in quick often just doesn't stop, at least where it can do the caller any good. This is where close cover calling again differs from open areas.
Byron's 3rd video has a nice black coyote approaching the stand from the right rear. As it circles at a lope Byron says on camera "I'll shoot it when it stops in the clearing in front of me."
The coyote enters the clearing, sees and hears Byron makes a 180 and rockets out of sight. In my mind I can hear Byron saying "wait for it to stop. Wait... It's going to stop. Wait... @#$%, OJ!!!
3 Toes can't argue with your logic.
DAA, I can argue with yours.
quote:
Keeping in mind that we are only average coyote callers, and below average videographers,
that's horsepuckie
Plain and simple, coyotes don't always stop anymore than they always do anything.
I wouldn't bet the farm on it or want to miss an opportunity with a camera or gun at a black coyote or have to explain to a novice why they didn't get a shot because someone believed that "They ALWAYS stop! They ALWAYS do!"
Posted by Jrbhunter (Member # 459) on July 24, 2008, 08:24 AM:
In my local calling efforts I've noticed that the BEST way to stop a running coyote depends primarily on how/why he's moving.
A confused/curious trot is one thing, a territorial death charge is another. I guess quite simply- the way I stop his movement will depend on the way I managed to start it. If he's looking for something specific, I don't want to blow his mind with a very different stopping mechanism and expect it to work.
SOME COYOTES (As defined by the origin of their response) are easier to stop than others for me. Some need a gentle lipsqueek at 100 yards, others will take a sharp bark as they sail past at 30. In situations where an effort to stop the coyote will more likely result in him hitting another gear- I take running shots. If I know a particular setup isn't condusive to stopping a coyote clear of brush/terrain... I'll call it differently than most.
Everytime I hear the phone... it's ringing. Every coyote I've killed has stopped. Every single one.
EDIT TO ADD: The variations in the way I stop a coyote may only vary in the volume of a WOOF or it may go so far as an ecaller positioned away from the original sound source.
[ July 24, 2008, 08:26 AM: Message edited by: Jrbhunter ]
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on July 24, 2008, 09:57 AM:
I didn't know Jay was responsible for the theory? I used to hear the same thing, years ago, about mule deer.
I once watched a coyote run away, from a vantage point, through the scope for roughly 8-900 yards beyond the nearest hill where he was briefly out of sight and I suppose he felt safe, but still continued to run? Anyway, he suddenly flopped down, legs outstretched and just seemed to do a human impression of kicking back.
He looked so comfortable, I couldn't resist. A near miss and he was off to the races, never to be seen again.
So, yeah, technically, he did stop and everybody is correct, they always do.
How would Jay know?
Good hunting. LB
Posted by Az-Hunter (Member # 17) on July 24, 2008, 09:58 AM:
DAA...Your way to humble buddy; but thats what makes your videos so watchable I suppose. You two guys do a bang up job of putting out believeable, no bullshit predator hunting videos.
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on July 24, 2008, 10:02 AM:
What Vic said:
Posted by Rich Higgins (Member # 3) on August 07, 2008, 07:07 AM:
[ August 07, 2008, 07:10 AM: Message edited by: Rich Higgins ]
Posted by Locohead (Member # 15) on August 07, 2008, 04:24 PM:
Now dang it Rich, if Leon' has told you once, he's told you a million times not to delete your posts but rather edit. I love reading your posts too. Now, if hellboy would be so kind as to Blobifiy your deleted post, then we can all get back to business as usual. ![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
Posted by Rich Higgins (Member # 3) on August 07, 2008, 04:42 PM:
Hey Loco, I tweaked Jay again about a post he made recently and I thought better of it, since I intend to stop by his booth in Kansas so I can say Hi to his lovely bride Eileen. What a terrific lady she is. Jay married up. Way, way up.
Posted by Tim Behle (Member # 209) on August 07, 2008, 05:20 PM:
That's one thing that you twins have in common.
In eight years of being around you, I've yet to meet either your wife, or Uncle Jay's.
I meant to ask Tyler last weekend, if you really had one.
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on August 07, 2008, 05:36 PM:
Really had one? He's "really had" several.
Kind of funny; when Nancy and I met Rich and Debbie at the Elephant Bar in Scottsdale for the first time, during introductions, Debbie volunteered she was wife #4. That Rich Higgins is quite the Ladies Man!
Good hunting. LB
Posted by Rich Higgins (Member # 3) on August 07, 2008, 05:55 PM:
I don't remember her mentioning it, Leonard. She seldom ever has, even to me.
That's something Tim, Jay and I all have in common. We each married beautiful, intelligent women that could have done much better.
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on August 07, 2008, 05:56 PM:
I didn't hear it either, Rich. She said it to Nancy.
Posted by Tim Behle (Member # 209) on August 07, 2008, 06:56 PM:
Rich,
Joyce is in the same class, ( she could have done a hell of a lot better )
But at least I've introduced you to her!
Which reminds me of another thing that you and Jay have in common, you both tend to call the house during my working hours, spend a bit of time talking to her, and the only message that I get is "Rich ( Or Jay ) called"
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on August 07, 2008, 07:37 PM:
Not me. Phone would ring and Nanc would be yaking for an hour, while I am mildly curious who she is talking to; eventually, she hands me the phone:
"it's Rich!"
edit: agreed; Nanc could easily have done a lot better.
[ August 07, 2008, 07:38 PM: Message edited by: Leonard ]
Posted by Scott F. (Member # 1961) on August 07, 2008, 07:53 PM:
"It's either this archery or me, Rich! What's it going to be?!!!!"
"...I'm gonna miss ya hon..."
Classic.
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on August 08, 2008, 06:23 AM:
Hey, Higgins, you bring that weird 230 lb longbow to the campout. I have another AZ Predator Posse patch for whoever can pull the string all the way back to their ear, don't worry about holding it for any length of time.
Good hunting. LB
Posted by smithers (Member # 646) on August 08, 2008, 06:42 PM:
Atleast you guys didn't have all those wives at once.
I've been married once. But never Happily! ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
Posted by Inoculation (Member # 2229) on August 13, 2008, 07:41 PM:
230lbs to a full draw? I might have to get myself a patch haha!
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