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Hall Monitor, did that sound like I simply restated someone else's opinion or could I have possibly reached that opinion by observing thousands of dead coyotes when I used to have more coyotes to observe?

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That depends... And remember I am being the Hall Monitor, smart ass and literalist here.

Observing DEAD coyotes doesn't reveal much. Monitoring the movements and interactions of the deceased is quite easy...

That's about enough sass from me.

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Restating someone else's opinion.....sheeesh! LOL!

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You shoot the family group and observe the sex and age. That doesn't tell you much about family groups? Ahhhh...ok?

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Touche...

Shoot and kill the entire family group of 3 or 4? Sounds easy enough. They USUALLY respond single file and as a Family Group here sometomes too. I'll try and get all 4 next time... Ahhh...ok.
 

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Posted by Rich (Member # 112) on August 20, 2008, 09:17 AM:
 
"I Believe...
That just because two people argue,
it doesn't mean they don't love each other.
And just because they don't argue,
it doesn't mean they do love each other."
---------------------------------
I believe-----that Smithers is full of crap.
I do like his new sig. line though.
 

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Posted by 3 Toes (Member # 1327) on August 20, 2008, 09:18 AM:
 
Smithers, We shoot entire family groups all the time. With decoy dogs in the spring and summer it is not uncommon to shoot all the old ones (usually 2 or 3) and take the den. This time of year and later on we do alot of aerial hunting. Fixed wing and rotary and again it isn't uncommon to find a entire family group together and kill them all. Matter of fact I wiped out a group this morning with the plane. It is also not uncommon to move in on a family group this time of year with a bunch of traps and catch them all. We have different tools and play by different rules.

[ August 20, 2008, 09:20 AM: Message edited by: 3 Toes ]
 

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Posted by Paul Melching (Member # 885) on August 20, 2008, 09:52 AM:
 
Three Toes
what is the average size of groups you see hunting by plane and what is the largest group you've seen as a family group.
 

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Posted by Cdog911 (Member # 7) on August 20, 2008, 10:01 AM:
 
Cal said, "We have different tools and play by different rules.

You also have different motivations. You go after the entire family because that's what you're paid to do. If things don't go that way for me on a given stand (and very, very rarely do they go that way), I defer to the ol' "bird in the hand is worth a family group of birds in the bush" philosophy and pack my happy ass on down the road to greener pastures. In truth, it's no different for any of the rest of us in that I wouldn't last very long at my job if I spent my work day doing just what I wanted rather than what the boss man expected of me. I would think that if I spent the time and energy focusing on a specific coyote or family group that you and Scott do, it wouldn't take too long take for the "recreation" to be squeezed right out of the sport. I sure wish I knew everything they've given you guys in your training, and I sure wish I had all your toys to use, but I don't know if my ADD would allow me to stick with one coyote like you have to. My hat is off to all of you.

Also, smithers will argue just about anything. Won't he? Sure is good to see Scott rasslin' with someone that ain't me for once.
 

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Posted by Wiley E (Member # 108) on August 20, 2008, 05:44 PM:
 
PM: "Then can I assume that if an area holds only or mostly single coyotes that could be an area with poor food soure among the other reasons stated."

What time of year are we talking? Recreational fur harvesting months during winter I presume which is when most guys are calling?

If so, the answer to that question is not necessarily.

Perhaps the area was hit with mange or distemper and the total numbers of coyotes are thinned down enough to where there is numerous good coyote habitat that remains unoccupied.

Perhaps the area has been heavily hunted and all that remains is singles and dispersers.

Perhaps you are hunting in marginal habitat with a marginal food supply which doesn't bode well for family groups.

Perhaps there is better areas surrounding this area that are occupied by family groups that haven't been killed yet.

Family groups are the least intact during the prime fur season.

PM: "Or these are coyotes moving through that area, and is not core territory for a family group."

You haven't been reading Mark June's articles have you?

This "core area" theory applies to territorial coyotes which is usually during denning months. Core areas are much less defined in the winter months because of human disturbance, mortality of one or both of a pair, and due to food changes. A group of coyotes that lives in an area in November might be pushed 15 miles to find food in deep snow conditions or to seek safe refuge from hunters. Throw this "core area" theory out the window for winter coyotes because it simply doesn't apply to the vast majority of adult coyotes in the winter months. Unlike the summer months, there is no den or mobile family group to tie the adults to a particular area. The more mobile the family group becomes, the more they move in their search for food and refuge.

Much of the research on "core areas" for adult coyotes was done during denning season and these findings do not apply to the vast majority of coyotes in the winter months.

Heck, 70% of a healthy coyote population are young of the year coyotes who are looking for a territory, not holding one down.

PM: "Given that I see no heavy or regular marking of that same area,and rarely,well never have called multiples in that area.but I regularly call singles."

Could be for the reasons mentioned above or other factors.

PM: "I also have some areas that hold family groups within close proximity to each other conversely I would think the food source must be very good. and the exploitation limited."

That's a safe bet depending on the total coyote population in the area.

~SH~

[ August 20, 2008, 05:51 PM: Message edited by: Wiley E ]
 

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Posted by Wiley E (Member # 108) on August 20, 2008, 06:07 PM:
 
Smithers: "Shoot and kill the entire family group of 3 or 4? Sounds easy enough. They USUALLY respond single file and as a Family Group here sometomes too. I'll try and get all 4 next time... Ahhh...ok."

I see where you are coming from on this now Smithers. You are thinking in terms of identifying the size of family groups through recreational calling which would be difficult in open country let alone in thicker cover.

I'm thinking in terms of identifying and removing entire family groups by calling, trapping, snaring, M-44s, and aerial hunting.

For a quick overview of what I am basing my opinions on, lets go back to a time when I had more coyotes and more complaints. I was making these family group observations while working livestock complaints. Usually this involved a den and a family group of coyotes. The losses didn't stop until all the adults were removed and/or the den. In other words, removing the entire family group.

Most of these observations occured in the months of April, May, June, July, and to some degree August depending on circumstances.

Immigration is slower at that time of year (Apr. - July) so when you remove a family group of coyotes during those months, immigrants USUALLY are slow to fill those voids until you get into late August.

Exploitation is lower at that year because ADC guys are usually the only ones working on them.

Food sources are somewhat consistant during that time of year.

Weather is not a factor that will move coyotes long distances at that time of year.

Habitat increases at that time of year in many areas that grow crops.

My point? Coyote family groups are much more defined at that time of year.

So when you call coyotes during that time of year in the more open plains, you often see the whole family group working in close proximity to the den area. Even if you don't call and shoot all of them, sometimes you do and sometimes you don't, you will usually round them up with traps, snares, and aerial hunting.

Based on that, it's much easier to identify the size of these family groups.

Now if I was only measuring familiy groups during the winter months through recreational predator calling, I would agree with your basic premise. That's even hunting the open plains of the Dakotas as compared to the heavy brush in other areas. As you have insinuated, how would you know how big that family group actually was if you shot one and never saw the rest? I agree.

If I led you to believe that I usually kill all the coyotes I call in ....I can only wish. In competition hunts, I'm usually happy if I can kill 50% of the coyotes I see that I have access to.

~SH~

[ August 20, 2008, 06:21 PM: Message edited by: Wiley E ]
 

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Posted by 3 Toes (Member # 1327) on August 20, 2008, 07:30 PM:
 
Paul, I have to define "seen". A couple weeks ago I actually had my eyes on 8 or 9 pups and 2 old ones. I was watching them while waiting for the plane to get there. That may be the most in a family group that I have actually had my eyes on. Last year I took the biggest family group I ever had, by killing 3 old ones with a rifle and taking a den, That female had 13 pups, so that was a group of 16 but I didn't actually lay my hands on all the pups. But I did take the den that they were in so I assume that I had them all. Sometimes that can be a bad assumption but in this case I'm pretty sure they were all there in one spot. We don't keep pup counts other than for personal information. They don't go on our total coyote numbers for the year and are just listed as dens taken.
 

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Posted by smithers (Member # 646) on August 20, 2008, 08:10 PM:
 

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I believe-----that Smithers is full of crap.

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I can argue that... Please expound...

3Toes, rub it in a little more, why don't ya.

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Also, smithers will argue just about anything. Won't he?

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I'm thinking in terms of identifying and removing entire family groups by calling, trapping, snaring, M-44s, and aerial hunting.

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Of course you are! That's what you do for a living.
Not that it makes any difference but I do respect your knowledge and abilities. Just because I argue doesn't mean...

I, like MOST rec callers, don't think in those terms. I think in terms of getting out 3 or 4 times a week for a few hours. It can be like putting together a 1000 piece puzzle with no border pieces to start with. I just keep on keepin' on...
Bigger picture thinking helps out sometimes. But more oft it eludes me.

Great explanation of what us commoners don't get to experience much of. Thanks.

~Hall Monitor~
 

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Posted by Paul Melching (Member # 885) on August 23, 2008, 06:34 PM:
 
Wiley and Toes,Rob
Thanks for the info. all of this is just pieces for me at this point,Ive only been calling about five years and have a lot of things to pick up I find if I keep the questions simple , the replies hold a lot of Info.
Smithers thanks for the entertainment you always provide the humor.
Paul
 

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Posted by TA17Rem (Member # 794) on August 23, 2008, 08:57 PM:
 
My 10 year old son asked tonite if we could go out and locate some coyotes. I said yes and off we went. First couple of stands my son heard only adult pairs respond and a few singles. We then took a two track down into a river bottom that is a two mile section, when we stopped my son asked if he could howl once and see if any respond, i said go for it. He let out a couple of howls with his voice and we had 3 pups and two adults answer back. Boy did his face lite up when he heard all those coyotes answer him back.. It was a good nite to be out and i'm glad my son chose to come along..
 

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