This is topic MANGE!!!!!! in forum Predator forum at The New Huntmastersbbs!.


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Posted by Rich (Member # 112) on September 22, 2008, 06:59 AM:
 
Now that we have Wiley E posting again, and RedRabbit talking a bit, I have decided to bring up this question. The coyote population has been killed off really bad in my part of western Iowa. I believe it is due to the mange, and the mange mites surviving in the dens all winter. The bad population drop actually took place at least ten years ago. I had expected the voids would soon be filled by new coyotes, but it hasn't happened. It has become clear that I must travel into new area's in search of coyotes. I may have to buy a south dakota or nebraska hunting license yet. What's up with that?
 

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Posted by rainshadow1 (Member # 899) on September 22, 2008, 09:43 AM:
 
Rich, just a tidbit to add before it gets rolling. I've learned, from raising English Bulldogs (who are susceptable to lots of health issues), that sarcoptic mange is usually present on all canines. It's the weak and debilitated that are adversely effected. Basically, mange is there almost all the time, but it takes lowered immunity in some form to allow a mange outbreak to get bad enough to cause hair loss. Then it's a snowball effect from there, since the hair loss causes heat loss, which causes loss of energy, which causes more illness.... etc.

The one exception to that was puppies. Healthy puppies are vulnerable, since their immunity is lower for a few months. Which could snowball into their adulthood I suppose.

I don't know if that holds true with wild dogs, but that's what I was told about domestic dogs, and it was consistent with what I've researched.

Mange is always there, but it takes lowered immunity to make it outbreak and do damage.

Do you think it's the same in the wild?
 

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Posted by Rich (Member # 112) on September 22, 2008, 10:35 AM:
 
rainshadow1,

I'm pretty sure that a mange mite is a mange mite, whether it is on a domestic dog, a coyote or any other canine. I think the mites are surviving our winters by staying deep in the dens, and infesting the newborn coyote pups. The rising red fox population here would seem to add weight to my belief. The strange thing to me is that new coyotes have not yet filled in the void. Since the Missouri river borders my area to the west, most of the migrating coyotes would likely come from my north, south or east. Maybe this mange outbreak extends a long way north & south of me.
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on September 22, 2008, 12:21 PM:
 
Rich, they cross the bridge....from the west.

How common is reusing dens?

Good hunting. LB
 

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Posted by Okanagan (Member # 870) on September 22, 2008, 02:36 PM:
 
Don't know how common it is but I know of two dens that were reused. One was used to raise pups three consecutive years, the other two that I know of.

Interesting topic.
 

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Posted by CrossJ (Member # 884) on September 22, 2008, 05:03 PM:
 

quote:

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...that sarcoptic mange is usually present on all canines. It's the weak and debilitated that are adversely effected. Basically, mange is there almost all the time, but it takes lowered immunity in some form to allow a mange outbreak to get bad enough to cause hair loss.

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Rainshadow, You are talking about 'red' mange, also known as demodectic mange. Demodectic mites are present in all canines, the pick them up from their mother at birth.It is believed the outbreak is caused by an allergic reaction that some have due to a genetic flaw. It is hereditary, but not generally considered contagious. It can be brought on by stress such as heat or welping.
Sarcoptic mange is a different parasite. It is contagious within species,and to a certain degree across species. Sarcoptic mange is what is seen in coyote populations.

Maintain
 

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Posted by Rich (Member # 112) on September 22, 2008, 05:12 PM:
 
Leonard,
I believe that in my area it is fairly common for coyotes to use the same dens for several years in a row. They find areas that are furthest from roads and houses. Dens are usually near ridge tops, and often on south facing slopes. I have never seen a coyote crossing sign at bridge approaches, but they probably do cross em now and then.
 

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Posted by JoeF (Member # 228) on September 22, 2008, 06:48 PM:
 
Timely topic, Rich. I saw the mangiest coyote of my life scavenging something off the road-side last Friday. 7:45 AM, pretty unusual to see a coyote in this part of the country at that time of the day, this time of year, in that spot. Far western IL, pretty much where the Ia. and Mo. state lines meet. That poor old boy was hurting and really did not want to retreat back in to the weeds as I drove by. He was as big a coyote as is ever grown around here but that little mite will drag him down as the weather gets cold.

Mange hammered the Mo. coyotes in my favorite area that would be about straight south of there,as a crow flies, some 10 years ago. I can return to the farm I grew up on and kill foxes easier than coyotes now. It has not been that way since the early seventies.
 

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Posted by rainshadow1 (Member # 899) on September 22, 2008, 06:56 PM:
 
CrossJ, That makes more sense. We've dealt with both, sarcoptic, and demodectic, and in pups it looks the same. I was told (from at least 1 vet) that they were both common, floating around, but not always manifested with symptoms, like hair loss. It would make more sense that scabies are more of a virus-like parasite.
 

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Posted by Kelly Jackson (Member # 977) on September 22, 2008, 07:31 PM:
 
Anybody ever killed a bobcat with mange?
I havn't.
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on September 22, 2008, 07:34 PM:
 
Nope.
 

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Posted by Cdog911 (Member # 7) on September 23, 2008, 05:09 AM:
 
Killed plenty of coons with it, but in small isolated spots often around the hindlegs, but never a 'cat.
 

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Posted by Cdog911 (Member # 7) on September 23, 2008, 05:10 AM:
 
Well, crap. Had the day off to pack up stuff for the big move to MacNeal. Now, I see I'm staying. Friggin' management!
 

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Posted by Rich (Member # 112) on September 23, 2008, 05:42 AM:
 
"Killed plenty of coons with it, but in small isolated spots often around the hindlegs, but never a 'cat."
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Mange on a Coon? I'm gonna Google that one.
 

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Posted by Kokopelli (Member # 633) on September 23, 2008, 07:52 AM:
 
I asked my wife (She-who-must-be-obeyed) if she had ever ran into mange on a feline the years that she worked as an animal groomer. "A couple of dogs but never on a cat." Mayhap the little micro beasties don't like cats.

This would be a good place to point out that surgical gloves (hand condoms) can be bought at most drug stores in boxes of 100, pretty cheaply. Practice safe skinning!!!
 

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Posted by rainshadow1 (Member # 899) on September 23, 2008, 09:30 AM:
 
Another thing they told me... don't trust anything for sure now, but... Cats can't get it. They may have their own brand, but those mites don't like cats and won't burrow on them. They will burrow on humans, but they won't reproduce and won't survive on humans. They need canines.
 

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Posted by Rich (Member # 112) on September 23, 2008, 11:45 AM:
 
On the link I found at Google, it states that raccoons do get mange. I have never seen it, but most of the coons that I have met, use hollow trees for their dens. The mange mite would likely freeze to death in our hollow trees, which explains why we don't see much mange in midwestern coons.
 

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Posted by coyote whacker (Member # 639) on September 23, 2008, 01:00 PM:
 
There is much debate on how long scarpotic mange mites can live without a host, Most would find it hard to believe they could live for 60-90 days in a hole no matter how deep because they would dry out and die. Ricj better stay in the eastern 1/3rd of SD as the mange is pretty bad as you go west in SD.

Here is some information on these mites for what it is worth:
http://instruction.cvhs.okstate.edu/kocan/vpar5333/533ot3aa.htm
 

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Posted by Rich (Member # 112) on September 23, 2008, 02:53 PM:
 
"Ricj better stay in the eastern 1/3rd of SD as the mange is pretty bad as you go west in SD."
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Coyote Whacker,
That sounds like a good idea for me. Eastern south dakota is closer to me than western. Thanks for the tip.
 

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Posted by Tactical.20 (Member # 3148) on September 23, 2008, 10:23 PM:
 
I have always thought that the mite was in the den and the new ones got it too. It always seemed, since the mange wiped our fox out 16 or more years ago, that you would see new fox, then they are gone or sick. Now all we mainly have is the coyote. I hear by Spirit Lake they have mange too.
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on September 23, 2008, 11:32 PM:
 
Welcome to The New Huntmasters, Tactical.20. Glad to have you on board. Especially with all the problems getting logged on!

I would urge members to remember their exact log in name, and screen name and especially; THEIR MEMBER NUMBER, (that's #1) But, the log in name is second most important, which he never gave to me, and then (apparently) he lost his computer generated welcome message with the password and member number.

Put it this way, it took a bit of luck, and a week to locate Tactical.20's registration. I need the log in name (exactly as entered) or the member #. I do not like to scroll through the entire membership looking for a screen name.

Tac20's email address didn't pop up the first couple of times, for some reason? But that's another thing, when you guys have a problem, tell me your old email address, if you have changed it. Your new one is useless.

He didn't do anything wrong, besides lose his welcome email, this is just general information for the rest of you that might come in handy, some day.

Okay, end of rant. LB

PS 1st)log in name, (not screen name) 2nd)member# for me to locate your records.
 

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Posted by 6mm284 (Member # 1129) on September 24, 2008, 07:40 AM:
 
Dealt with the same mange for years in livestock operation. Mange mites do not go away unless treated or the host must die. Moist environments(dens) can support the survival for quite some time without a host.. The sarcoptic mange mite is a suppressant to the immune system and makes the host susceptible to illness that would otherwise would not be.Environment has an effect on occurrence as does the number of infected animals. It is passed by contact and therefore even if an animal is treated and cleaned up , he can be reinfected by another untreated animal. We treated swine for it regularly and was just part of the normal routine.. Demodectic mange is normal to canines and is usually kept in check by a healthy immune system. If the immune systems is weakened by other conditions then the demodetic may express itself more.I am not sure that coyotes would always have carried a certain amount of sarcoptic mange without becoming more heavily infested.My experience was that if you noticed sarco mange it just continued to get worse until you did something about it. I think years ago when we saw light mange on coyotes it was the demodetic type that resides close to oil glands behing the ears.As I started to notice sarco mange in coyotes some years back I feared it would eventually have a big impact on them .It sure appears it has. Normally by this time of year, I have them howling in every direction from my house,,, this year I have not heard one.Maybe I should start treating my local coyotes if there are any left.
 

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Posted by Randy Roede (Member # 1273) on September 24, 2008, 08:34 AM:
 
Rich, the SE part of SD is full of mange also, I know a few guys callin there and visited with a bunch more, along with our guys there and they all say the same, rare to get a good one. If you get to Pierre I think Hunsley and I could find a couple of hairy ones for you to toot to. Won't be many but a couple for sure. I got a spot on my garage wall already picked out for the hero pic. Seriously!!

What I am wondering is if the parvo, distemper isn't taking more than we think. Once those pups are off milk the parvo wipes out the litter. I have seen a few dens with snot nosed, diahrea, some dead, some near dead pups. Also early on adults and pups answering and then only adults. Never hearing pups there again?? This would explain the low populations year after year with the parvo in the soil like in domestic dogs. Once you get it in your kennels as the vet told me it is there forever and has to be dealt with occordingly forever!!

Got two pups from a rancher and had them about 3 days, mind you they had zero puppy shots etc. ranch dogs. They came down with parvo, one died the other cost me over $300 at the vet. I had all the vaccines just hadn't got around to it. 3 days!! They had just been weened and were fine but he told me either they brought it with them and I now had it in my kennels or I had it in my soil first. Now every year all the dogs get vacinated every year and havn't had a problem.

I think it is a combination of that that is keeping the populations so low for so long.

I always think we are coming out of it from what I see in the summer to this time of year. Knock on wood but I have only seen one magey coyote on pups this summer, but I have also had no adults show on pups and from past experience that can be mangey coyotes that won't engage the dogs. We'll see.

One of the misconceptions is a true definition of true scarpotic mange in the field. Full blown east to spot the early stages not so, scaly skin on ears fronts of legs with chunks of hair missing out what would be a beautiful pelt, and of course the smell, AHHH I can smell it now. What a stench!!!

The Turner ranch here in the winter of 2002 did some blood sampling on coyotes, 100 or more, that were taken by a private plane on the ranch, swift fox reintroduction, and most of the coyotes that were sampled at that time, before the mange outbreak were as their biologist stated were HOT!! with Distemper, and Parvo. Geordie this stuff may make sense to you, some counts in the blood were sky high??? There are now parts of that ranch that hold virtually no coyotes that in 2002 had coyotes everywhere.

Is it possible that with our severe drought and limited water sources that coyotes are comng in contact more when forced to use the same sources? Not as much so now with the rain this year.

Our decoy dogs have contact with some mangey coyotes, pups, den sites etc. I have never had them contract it.

I've seen coons, skunks, badgers, fox and coyotes with mange. No cats though.

Theres a piece to this puzzle that is missing.

Well got to head to that NW corner of IA. Spencer, Tac 20 you know the country, hog building heaven, step daughters wedding this weekend. You need that stuff the cororner sp? puts under his nose when workin on a dead guy LOL!!! Aqua Velva I think it is mixed with vaseline!!

My two cents worth.
 

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Posted by Rich (Member # 112) on September 24, 2008, 11:10 AM:
 
Randy Roede,
Thanks for the invitation sir, I appreciate that very much. I do have an open invitation to hunt with Jerry Hunsley, so maybe I will see you next month. My knees have been dealing me fits ever since I worked up on the ladder a month or so ago while repairing hail holes in my vinyl siding. Doctor thinks it is arthritis, and I am going to physical therapy twice a week. If my knees don't heal up, I will need to hunt pretty close to the truck. In other words I won't be calling with Huber. That guy would rather walk than drive his truck ya know.
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on September 24, 2008, 11:27 AM:
 
Huber must have taken it easy on me, Rich? Yeah, he still likes to walk a good ways from the truck, but I (somehow) managed to keep up?

Good hunting. LB
 

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Posted by coyote whacker (Member # 639) on September 24, 2008, 12:08 PM:
 
The only thing with this moist stuff is how dry is the air in winter? How are these mites living in a den hole at below freezing temps and low humidity for 2 months +? I have a hard time with that? These mites can last 90+ days in a dry hole with no host? Their life cycle is not long and how do young mites survuve without a host?

The 90 days is even short, when you consider these coyotes use those holes from Mid- April to July, then they abandon them so they sit ideal from August which runs between 90-110 degrees until End of March into april the following year? Then say if those mange coyotes are still alive or even a new group moves into that same hole those mites are active to pass that on? Are there any studies showing this ability?

Randy R you should have blood tested a few of those that showed bred but no pup's around? Or those crappy looking pup's, I'm sure there is some parvo around ,I'm betting some of those young as the summer wore on just died out from the mange. I have that here, I have trapped pups in Early/ Mid august that had a few weeks left of life at most, just mangy as all get out and little life left in them.
 

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Posted by CrossJ (Member # 884) on September 24, 2008, 12:20 PM:
 
Randy, Yes it does make sence to me, and I am not suprised. Parvo and distemper are common viruses found within a canine population. I would suspect animals sampled to show a positive titer to both viruses. Their immune system worked. What causes the population to show clinical signs of the virus, who knows? Some sort of stress? People in your line of work would be more suited to answer that question. What were the dynamics of the population just prior to the outbreak? Things such as higher coyote densities, with suppressed prey base, or severe winters prior to welping? Anything that could 'stress' a population.

I know there has been much debate over the ability for mange mites to live in dens. It has been speculated that mites will remain in dens for long periods of time, thus continuing to infect a population. I am having a hard time following this idea. First off, the life expectancy of a mange mite is between 21 to 28 days(on a host). Gestation on mite eggs is around 14 days. The eggs require a host to be hatched. Mites do not have an exoskeleton like a tick. I feel this would compromise there existance without a host. Second, lets say a family unit occupies a den. They are infected with mange mites. For whatever reason, this family group abandons the den. How soon would another coyote or family of coyotes occupy the den? I would think it would be a very long time, given the time of year and the territorial issues. I would definatly think longer than 3 to 4 weeks(life expectancy of mites), and more like next denning season(live mites would not be present).
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on September 24, 2008, 03:42 PM:
 
Or, it could be the other way around? You know how they say ponds out in the middle of the prairie and high alpine lakes get sorta colonized by dried fish eggs stuck to duck feathers?

It's possible the mite eggs could be in a suspended animation until the parents crawl into a den, sort of a vector for the mite, shake their coat a bit and sprinkle mite eggs all over the place for the next visiter. That's the question I have, do they snuggle up in a den to get out of the rain once in a while, outside of denning season?

Good hunting. LB
 

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Posted by Rich (Member # 112) on September 24, 2008, 04:48 PM:
 
"I (somehow) managed to keep up?"
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Leonard,
So did I, but I will never forget that first stand we made. We get out of the truck on this two track that ran for miles down the flat butte. We walked down the two track. As we walked, I would look back at the truck now and then. It wasn't until the truck was so far away that it looked like a Tonka toy, that we finally walked over to our right and called down into the valley we had followed along all this time. I couldn't help but wonder if it would have saved time and energy to simply drive up the two track til we got to that big rock marker, and THEN walk over about 100 yards to call down into that valley? Sure I know he had his reasons, I just can't figure out what those reasons were. Maybe just testing my old legs? LOL Watching Huber's dogs work those coyotes made every minute of that long walk worth the effort though. The Kid is good, I'll give him that.
 

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Posted by Rich (Member # 112) on September 24, 2008, 04:59 PM:
 
"question I have, do they snuggle up in a den to get out of the rain once in a while, outside of denning season?"
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In some area's the coyotes actually do spend some time in old culverts and brush piles that were used as dens during the spring. East of me, out in open farming country they do that. In the brush and timber that I hunt most of the time, they don't seem to do that. The coyotes I have known, seem to prefer dense cedar thickets to hang out in during storms.
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on September 24, 2008, 05:03 PM:
 
Well hell! You could still SEE the truck? That's not fair!

I'm with you, a good caller should be able to call them over here, rather than trecking into their "core" areas....whatever that is?

But, he has seen enough of his country from the air to know where they are hanging out, that's a big advantage.

Good hunting. LB
 

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Posted by R.Shaw (Member # 73) on September 24, 2008, 05:15 PM:
 
I agree with Geordie. I don't see how they could survive without a host.

Now, when a coyote gets mange, is it a for sure and for certain death sentance? Maybe some can recover?

Randy
 

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Posted by Cdog911 (Member # 7) on September 24, 2008, 05:33 PM:
 
Randy,

I'm not going to cite an article by author and date, and for that matter, any specific locale, but I do recall a study where they looked at mange in an exploited west Texas pop'n of coyotes and determined that once a coyote contracted the mange, he had something like a 98.5% of becoming infested (~1.5% seemed to be resistant or unpalatable to the mites), and of those infested, over 99% died from infections and stress-related diseases directly attributable to the mites. Therefore, I guess, for all intents and purposes, it is a fatal "disorder".

I've only killed one mange survivor that I know of. She was an old female that showed signs of having nursed many a pup in her life. It was cold January and she was essentially hairless from the back of the head to the rear most ribs, and her tail was hairless and nubbed off. She looked all gnarly as hell, but I couldn't find any open wounds, fresh scratch marks, or even an offensive odor (other than regular old coyote smell) to indicate that the infestation was active. Just dry looking, greyish bluish black skin. Another thing that this showed me, although it may not be the case in all survivors, was that in her case, she didn't appear able to regrow hair where it had been lost due to the mites. The dermal tissue appeared to be permanently scarred. I'd always wondered if any of them were able to survive it, and if they did, did their hair grow back.
 

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Posted by CrossJ (Member # 884) on September 24, 2008, 05:56 PM:
 
Lance, I have seen a domestic dog that was infected regrow its hair, although the hair along the edge of its ears never returned.
 

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Posted by Cdog911 (Member # 7) on September 24, 2008, 07:23 PM:
 
Geordie, me, too. We had numerous occasions where our sight hounds would pick up mange mites from coyotes and start losing hair. My granddad would just slop axle grease over the area and by the time it wore off, the mange was gone. I suppose the grease suffocated the little varmints before they could get beyond the grease. When you're no bigger than a mange mite, I suppose 3 or 4 inches is a helluva long way to go when you're holding your breath. LOL
 

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Posted by rainshadow1 (Member # 899) on September 24, 2008, 07:32 PM:
 
The hair on the ears not coming back was probably due to scratch damage. We killed scabies in our Bullies with Ivermectin, the hair came back like new. (Of course they're so stiff and fat they can't do alot of scratching!)
 

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Posted by Cdog911 (Member # 7) on September 24, 2008, 07:40 PM:
 
Geordie, on a (un)related note, I had an English redtick hound that got prickly heat so bad one summer we cut his hair back - not bald, but danged close - at the vet's recommendation. Poor dog had a burr, man. Then, he wouldn't grow it back in. For the entire next season, that poor dog had nary a hair on him longer than 1/8-inch long. Going through and under barbed wire fences left him with a few nasty skin tears on his back and it became quickly apparent why a good hound needs a thick coat of hair. Later the next summer, when the dog still hadn't really shed out and regrown any new hair, the vet called me and told me to bring him in. When I got there, he showed me a study from the Journal of Veterinary Medicine citing a newly discovered type of tapeworm that had been documented in coyotes and which manisfested itself by disrupting the animal's ability to produce new hair. We began Cody on the meds he had and within a week, he started to take on a red tinge as those tick marks once again became visible. I wonder how many coyotes have poor hair growth from this parasite, and moreover, I wonder if they have a form of that med for me. Maybe I got this way from skinning too many coyotes without gloves. LOL (My growing fat belly might just be a big ol' tapeworm, too. Better get that looked at.)
 

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Posted by Rich (Member # 112) on September 24, 2008, 07:56 PM:
 
"Well hell! You could still SEE the truck? That's not fair!

I'm with you, a good caller should be able to call them over here, rather than trecking into their "core" areas....whatever that is?"
--------------------------------------------
Now listen ya pin hed, we could have DRIVEN the truck DOWN a dry and level two track, right up to within 100 yards of that CORE area. Then we would have walked maybe 100 yards instead of three miles. The core area was in a VALLEY where coyotes in said valley could not have seen the truck. To an ordinary guy like me, it would seem easier and wiser to simply DRIVE rather than WALK. Sorry about the Pin Hed remark Leonard, I watched Bill O'Riley tonite.

Now to be perfectly honest, I did see the need to walk in to other stands we made. No road to drive, hills to steep for a 4X4 truck. If a man has a job like Wiley's, he had better be in good physical shape.
 

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Posted by CrossJ (Member # 884) on September 24, 2008, 08:21 PM:
 
LOL Lance, maybe you need a liter of cydectin pour on. Just rub a little on scalp area every morning, and wait for regrowth. I know Shaw is sitting on the edge of his seat awaiting the results....

Maintain
 

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Posted by Cdog911 (Member # 7) on September 25, 2008, 04:41 AM:
 

 

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Posted by Wiley E (Member # 108) on September 25, 2008, 07:51 AM:
 
Let's stop and think about the things we know to be fact on this issue. As someone pointed out, hogs are very susceptible to mange. I know because we sprayed them with Lindane 20% numerous times during the year. Those hogs stayed in that same environment year after year yet there was always mange present. That should tell us that mange, or mange eggs can live in that environment without being transferred from a live host because all the hogs were sprayed.

Now, the big unknown here is whether hogs get the same type of mange as sarcoptic mange and whether there is differences.

As Whacker has pointed out, I don't buy the hole transmission theory either. That would only hold true within a family unit. Seldom have I seen adult coyotes use the same den holes year after year to den in. I can't remember ever seeing them use the same holes but I'm sure they do at times. Coyotes in this area usually dig new cleanouts in the same general areas but again I have not seem them use the same holes. Fox, on the other hand, CAN use the same holes year after year.

It would be extremely rare to have different coyotes, outside of a family unit during denning, using the same holes. Mangy coyotes will seek refuge in holes during cold weather but those are not public use holes.

One of the most common behavioral traits of any canid, whether it be dog or coyote, is to roll on something that stinks. That's how I believe mange can spread so quickly. Numerous coyotes will roll on the same stinky carcass and spread mange from one to the next. I also believe it can be contracted through direct contact which could be territorial fighting or breeding.

Here's a curve ball for ya. I've seen a healthy male paired with a mangy female. You know they're in contact with eachother continually. Yet one is healthy and the other mangy. Stop and think about that.

A few years back we got into a lengthy debate/discussion on mange on a trapping site. A trapper by the name of Bob Wendt, who used to be a small animal vet, bet me or anyone else $10,000 that coyotes could not recover from mange without human intervention. That should tell you what point the debate reached. I believed that a small population of coyotes can recover from mange. My own observations and the observations of others have witnessed short hair growing back in patches on certain coyotes. I also found a study that showed a coyote in the advanced states of mange that showed signs of recovery and was upgraded in it's condition score. I also called the veterinary departments of Colorado State University and Kansas State University and both said recovery, although rare, was probable. Never collected the $10,000 by proving it.

I think it was Bob that came up with an interesting theory that I believe holds a lot of merit. In most places where you have coyotes, you have coyotes feeding on dead piles. Whether it's feedlots, hog confinements, or other dead piles. Think back to the food habit study I quoted. Carrion, on a annual basis for 8000 coyote stomachs in every state W. of the Missouri river constituted 25% of the diet. The yearly breakdown was 20% in the Spring, 17% in the summer, 28% in the fall, and 36% in the winter. Now consider that within some of those deadpiles you are going to have critters that died after having been treated with insecticides such as Ivomectin, Cydectin, Warbex, & Durasban. There is a very good chance that enough of this insecticide could be obtained through feeding to reverse the process on mange. I thought that was an excellent theory that made perfect sense.

So based on this, if hogs get the same type of mange as coyotes (sacoptic), then this mite obviously is not being transferred by a live host because all hogs were sprayed numerous times within the year and never left that same environment.

Incidentally, if you didn't spray your outdoor hogs (non confinement), they were reinfested continually so it didn't just spread under moist or dry conditions. If you didn't spray, your outdoor hogs got mangy regardless of the weather conditions.

Randy brings up a good point about Distemper and Parvo. When we become so focused on mange, we tend to miss other factors that might be contributing to coyote mortality. It's also possible that stress from mange could make coyote pups more susceptible to distemper and parvo. Although I have not personally witnessed parvo in pups, I know it happens. I have seen healthy adult pairs of coyotes that showed no signs of mange that had pups based on the placental scars and evidence of nursing and these coyotes were roaming without pups. I believe those pups died of parvo because neither adult had any signs of mange and nobody was gassing coyote dens or reported shooting any pups. I've seen this a couple times in the last 22 years.

I found an otherwise healthy coyote laying dead on the railroad tracks near Wall, SD once and it had not been hit by the train. Finding it very suspicious, I sent it in to the SDSU diagnostic lab and it had died of parvo. This was very strange because parvo usually affects the pups more than adults. According to the research, distemper also plays a significant role in coyote mortality in some regions. I know Canada has shown coyote mortality due to distemper.

What we seldom find is coyotes laying out in pastures that have died from parvo or distemper. If those two diseases were more prevalent, in adult coyotes, you would find some of those carcasses the same way ranchers find other dead livestock. They find our aerial killed coyotes all the time. Nature can't hide that mortality. Based on that, I think both of these diseases are more prevalent in pups than adults even though adults might test positive for these diseases.

Rich, you goofball, it wasn't 3 miles. We walked about 1 mile and I walked back to the truck and drove back to pick you up, remember? In this country, if you call too close to your vehicle, you are going to reduce your success due to the coyote's association of danger with vehicles. Ask Albert sometime how his success increased when he started walking to the coyotes instead of trying to call them to the vehicle. Keep in mind, vehicles driving around in pastures in this country is not like other areas of increased non threatening traffic. The coyotes we were hunting had managed to live through grouse season, antelope season, deer season, and coyote calling season. Their association with vehicle noise is not a positive thing. I don't take that chance.

Since I haven't called Jenny Craig yet, those hills aren't as easy as they used to be. If I'm going to have any success, I have to walk.

Leonard, I picked stands where I could drive as close as I could which is precisely why I was so indecisive as to where we were going to call. Just trying to be accomodating.

~SH~

[ September 25, 2008, 08:06 AM: Message edited by: Wiley E ]
 

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Posted by Rich (Member # 112) on September 25, 2008, 08:18 AM:
 
"Rich, you goofball, it wasn't 3 miles. We walked about 1 mile and I walked back to the truck and drove back to pick you up, remember?"
------------------------------------
Wiley,
Yes, I do remember you being nice enough to go get the truck and bring it over to this tired old fat man. I appreciate it too. If I had walked that three miles back to the truck, I would have been too tuckered out to make another stand.
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on September 25, 2008, 08:56 AM:
 
Wiley, I didn't complain, but accomodating? I think I remember a one hour walk , across an almost impassible gully, at least a quarter mile of swamp and mud, then way further yonder to get to those dirt hills. Several times we were not in sight of each other for ten/fifteen minutes at a time. I know you were at least a quarter-mile from me, on stand and I couldn't hear the caller? Why didn't you go get the truck for me , pal? I thought I did good.

Good hunting. LB
 

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Posted by Rich (Member # 112) on September 25, 2008, 10:28 AM:
 
Well Hell, Leonard, I guess we know which one of us he likes now. I suppose he didn't let you drink out of his water jug, or buy your lunch either huh?
 

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Posted by Cdog911 (Member # 7) on September 25, 2008, 11:01 AM:
 
That big country calling is "special". I actually had the chance at a good deal on a GPS unit this year and grabbed it up - for one reason: those long walkabouts when I hunt with Q, whether up in NE or in SW KS. I'll use it here to mark den trees in big timbers, but up there, I can't tell you the number of times I've thought to myself that if Q ever broke his leg or had a stroke or something, he and I were both screwed because I had absolutely no friggin' idea where the truck was for most of the day. LOL

Scott, good point on the coyote pairs where one is mange-ridden and the other is clean. Makes you wonder. I can see parvovirus being a bigger factor in pups as the virus itself is especially fond of dividing cells, which a puppy is nothing but. Distemper is the major limiting factor here on coons - both canine and feline- and has been very prevalent for the past several years, so I imagine we have a certain amount of mortality from that. Years ago, I had a hunting dog contract something from something else in the field that mimicked distemper, but wasn't. (?) The vet that treated and saved the dog gave it a name I cannot recall, but he said it was close enough to canine distemper that a dog could catch it, but dissimilar enough that the vaccine wouldn't protect them. He said it was actually closer, biologically, to feline distemper. Way too many ugly wee critters out there to be handling some of this stuff without a biohazard suit on anymore.
 

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Posted by JeremyKS (Member # 736) on September 25, 2008, 11:09 AM:
 
Does anybody know what the results were from the guy that pulled blood from all the coyotes at the St. Francis hunt last year? If I remember right he was testing for Distemper and Parvo?
 

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Posted by Wiley E (Member # 108) on September 25, 2008, 02:42 PM:
 
Hahaha Leonard! Oops, forgot about that stand. Haha! You forgot to mention stopping to pull cactus. I don't think I could have gotten the truck to that spot if I tried.

Fine, I'll order a "Huvaround" with cactus juice in the tires for you next time and automatic 4WD, jet propulsion to cross creeks, and a gun scabbard.

I got you close on that last stand where we shot that coyote. That wasn't too bad was it?

I suppose you told everyone how I carried someone else's luggage out of the airport thinking it was yours too. Leonard probably thought I was a cleptomaniac. Haha! That was too funny!


Cdog,

Distemper is the regulating factor on coon pretty much everywhere in the US. I haven't been to a place yet that didn't have distemper in coon.

Jeremy,

Good question. It would be good to know the results of all that bloodwork.

Got that spot picked out yet? We're counting on you. We're done fighting noisy frozen snow and heavily called areas. Time to head to the banana belt. We want to drink tequilla, get back rubs, and shoot coyotes. Perhaps that's too far South huh?

~SH~

[ September 25, 2008, 02:43 PM: Message edited by: Wiley E ]
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on September 25, 2008, 03:25 PM:
 
You are right, Amigo! I did forget cactus foot in the mud. Had to remove my "high top hush puppies"?

(you ridiculed my desert storm combat boots, which helped me avoid excess weight charges on my luggage).....

Obviously, you like Rich better.
 

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Posted by Wiley E (Member # 108) on September 25, 2008, 03:46 PM:
 
Hahaha! I don't remember "ridiculing" your combat boots but I may have commented on how impressive they looked. LOL! I'm sure they were more cactus resistant than your hush puppies but not quite as sneaky. Yelling "ouch" when the cactus penetrates the hush puppies kinda defeats their sneaky purpose, huh? LOL! I still laugh every time I think of that tall rock wall we were going to repell down to make a stand. "OK SCOTT, PULL ME UP".

Perhaps you will get the chance to remove me from my comfort zone and you can laugh as I wave at strangers going down the highway. Dundie: "Good Eye Mate"

~SH~

[ September 25, 2008, 03:48 PM: Message edited by: Wiley E ]
 

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Posted by JeremyKS (Member # 736) on September 25, 2008, 03:55 PM:
 
I will try to ask Brent the next time I talk to him about those results.

O yeah we got some prime real estate picked out for you. It just has that look to it, as you would say it might have a coyote go through it every once in awhile lol. We might be even able to round of some of the local senoritas for you guys lol.
 

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Posted by Wiley E (Member # 108) on September 25, 2008, 05:05 PM:
 
No senoritas Jeremy! Senoritas bad medicine. Make angry momma bear. Just plenty coyote!

~SH~
 

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Posted by CrossJ (Member # 884) on September 25, 2008, 06:34 PM:
 
Lance, was the disease your dog had called hapatizoinosis(sp) by any chance? It is a disease that is caused by the ingestion of ticks. It is caused by protazoa. It can only be positively identified through muscle biopsy.

Wiley E, the mite that causes mange in hogs is not the same as causes mange in canines. Mites are host specific, like lice. They could possibly share the same traits as far as life cycle goes, except, they dont lay eggs outside the host dermous. The consumtion of medicated carcusses makes sence to how a wild population of canines could be treated. Personnally, we never could get coyotes to consume deads that had been medicated. Of course, this is from an area with mild winters in comparison to other places. It would have been nice to analyse the stomach contents of those coyotes for certain medications such as antibiotics and pesticides.

I do not believe that being infected with sarcoptic mange is a '100% death sentence'. I have seen some that I have felt were recovering from mange. I have no idea as to the percentage that recover, but I doubt it is very high. I do not have any answers, and searched around some time ago for a study on coyotes survival and mange, but no luck. I do believe that the spread of the mite is from live host to live host, not from a dorment stage to live host. This is based on my uderstanding of the morphology of the mite. Of course, my info is 20 years old.

Maintain, Geordie
 

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Posted by JeremyKS (Member # 736) on September 25, 2008, 06:42 PM:
 
O they are just to hand you your requested margaritas and perform the back rubs!

I got ya.

[ September 25, 2008, 06:51 PM: Message edited by: JeremyKS ]
 

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Posted by JeremyKS (Member # 736) on September 25, 2008, 06:57 PM:
 
Cross J I agree. I have been to lots of areas that have mange but never seen the die off that lots of guys seem to talk about. Good example, in Eastern Colorado 2 winter ago they had areas that received multiple feet of snow with one of the histories worst blizzards to date. They had manage before the storm and the next year after they still had mange. You would of thought due to the exposure the mangy coyotes would have died off.

[ September 25, 2008, 06:59 PM: Message edited by: JeremyKS ]
 

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Posted by Kelly Jackson (Member # 977) on September 25, 2008, 07:58 PM:
 
I have killed a few coyotes here in Okie land that looked to be on the back side of mange....I think here in the southern part they could survive...then I have seen the blue rat tailed suckers that you would think they could not make it through the week...

Another thought. A coyote eats on a dead beef that has been treated with Ivomec and has heart worms....does it kill em?

[ September 25, 2008, 07:59 PM: Message edited by: Kelly Jackson ]
 

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Posted by JeremyKS (Member # 736) on September 25, 2008, 08:29 PM:
 
I think a lot of factors come in play with that. First the coyote has to eat it. Like Cross J says I have found that coyotes usually won't touch a medicated bovine. Next it depends on how recently the bovine was treated with the ivomec as to wether or not there is enough residue in the body to do any good. With all that said if the coyote eats a bovine that was recently treated with ivomec I do think that its possible for the ivomec to do a coyote some good. But this is all a guess.
 

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Posted by nd coyote killer (Member # 40) on September 25, 2008, 10:42 PM:
 
Does anyone have any HARD facts from a biology type on how long the mange will run? I have heard in texas from 20-25yrs. In ND we seen it run in cycles from year to year but in WY it's just starting to show up prevelent in my area.

Prairie Ghost
www.coyotehunter.net
 

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Posted by Wiley E (Member # 108) on September 26, 2008, 07:22 AM:
 
Geordie: "Wiley E, the mite that causes mange in hogs is not the same as causes mange in canines. Mites are host specific, like lice. They could possibly share the same traits as far as life cycle goes, except, they dont lay eggs outside the host dermous."

Thanks for the information Geordie.

~SH~

[ September 26, 2008, 07:23 AM: Message edited by: Wiley E ]
 

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Posted by RedRabbit (Member # 796) on September 27, 2008, 01:10 AM:
 
checked out that link coyote whacker harvest grain mites? I been hauling tons of that grain been literally covered in chaff dust...Dont know whats been making me itch !

Leonard, "hi-top hush puppies" thats funny right there I dont care who you are...LOL
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on September 27, 2008, 08:57 AM:
 
High top Hush Puppies are funny, was Scott's labeling, I can't take credit. What's even funnier is that (judging by his response), I don't think he realizes that those (so called) Hush Puppies and my combat boots are one and the same?

At least the fashion statement is a little more Macho, than when Vic wore his Mexican Wrestler's sneakers for his Video debut!

Good hunting. LB
 

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Posted by Cdog911 (Member # 7) on September 27, 2008, 10:52 AM:
 
With all the Army around here, those boots are easy to come by and, dare I say, some of the most comfortable hiking boots a guy can wear, but they sure suck in cactus country. Whether it's the cordura or the flimsy leather they use, those spines go through and through easier than they should.
 

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Posted by Rich (Member # 112) on September 27, 2008, 11:36 AM:
 
"At least the fashion statement is a little more Macho, than when Vic wore his Mexican Wrestler's sneakers for his Video debut!"
------------------------------
I remember those funny sneakers in the video, but didn't realize that they were Mexican WRESTLING sneakers.
 

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Posted by 6mm284 (Member # 1129) on September 28, 2008, 03:04 PM:
 
humans have mites in their hair,eyebrows and beds normally.. Mites are very diversified little creatures. Ivomec would work on coyotes as I have used it on my dogs. For a coyote to consume treated dead animals would probably not work since the correct dosage could not be consumed at one time. I remember dosage was important to get control.We used an injectable Ivomec. . could cause death in canines with heart worms as that was a concern when we off label treated our dogs. In the areas east of the appalachia mountains there is an aerial program that drops treated cubes in widespread areas to control rabies in the raccoon population. It is a huge expensive program but seems to be effective in containing the rabies.. Maybe we could get them to treat our coyotes for mange.
 

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Posted by 6mm284 (Member # 1129) on September 28, 2008, 03:13 PM:
 
Crossj , what do you think would cause a recovery from mange other that treatment. Don't all stages of the live cycle exist in the normal progression of the infestation.We would have to spray treat at intervals corresponding to the life cycle in order to get control. One treatment did not eliminate. I don't know what might break that cycle.I dealt with it so long in livestock and while it may be host specific they still have similarites in symptoms and treatment.
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on September 28, 2008, 05:20 PM:
 
I recal an aerial program in Texas, some years ago, dropping cubes, but I think it was for distemper, but maybe rabies or Parvo? I don't know if it is rare or common, but I wonder about the effectiveness?

Good hunting. LB
 

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Posted by Cdog911 (Member # 7) on September 28, 2008, 07:21 PM:
 
If you can talk the gubmint into dropping mange curing cubes from the air, maybe they can drop them from flying pigs because the day that anyone agrees to try and cure something that kills coyotes will be the day that pigs fly. LOL Somehow, I just don't see that happening.
 

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Posted by TA17Rem (Member # 794) on September 28, 2008, 07:58 PM:
 
The mange has been here since the 80's and you just have to wait and let it run its course..
In the last couple of years it has seemed to be getting better, have been seeing alot less of it..
We do have a few pockets the produce a few mangey coyotes yet but we hit that area hard last winter and will see if it clears up.
Some sections produce coyotes everyear with mange and maybe comeing from useing same den or pipe.
I have seen coyotes and fox all winter long and into the spring that have mange and the cold weather dose'nt kill them all. Those that do make it to spring usually die from infections and what not.. I have never seen one recover from it either, not saying that they can't recover, just have'nt seen it is all..
As far as coon getting it it could be possable but have never seen it in coon. Some have some rubbed spots by the legs and so on, we call them kennel sores..

Question for those that are getting mange in youre areas??? What type of cover are these coyotes liveing in ????
Another question: For those that skin, do you see alot more fleas on coyotes comeing from certain areas as well...

Those that are getting the mange you better get used to it youre in for a long haul...
 

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Posted by CrossJ (Member # 884) on September 28, 2008, 08:28 PM:
 
6mm, I dont know what could be enabling a recovery. I also cant say for sure that any infected coyotes have recovered. I have killed a couple that seemed to have regrowth, and lacked the open sores. I would guess, that if there is a survival rate, it is very small.
Yes, an infected animal will have all life cycles of the mite present. Chemicals such as prolate used on hogs, will only kill the mature mites. Ivermectin, has a residual effect, and will kill larvae that have not emerged from the skin also.
As far as what could 'cure' a coyote in the wild, it would have to be something that totally rid the host of mites. If it were to happen, it could possibly be something that did not allow the eggs to hatch, or something that weakened the larvae preemergance; all a guess.
There appears to be very little research done on mange in coyotes. Given Cdogs flying pig observation, I doubt there will be much research either.

Maintain
 

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Posted by 3 Toes (Member # 1327) on September 29, 2008, 06:36 AM:
 
Leonard, The cubes dropped were likely for rabies. Thats the only ones I know about.
 

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Posted by DAA (Member # 11) on September 29, 2008, 07:12 AM:
 

quote:

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Another question: For those that skin, do you see alot more fleas on coyotes comeing from certain areas as well...

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Absolutely. Some areas, I'd almost swear the coyotes don't even have fleas. Other areas, I end up picking the damn things out of my beard and have them jumping around in my hat every time after skinning.

- DAA
 

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Posted by scruffy (Member # 725) on September 29, 2008, 07:20 AM:
 
Some pics of mangy iowa coyotes shot in the last week or so.

9/27, 18.5lb male
[IMG]http://render-2.snapfish.com/render2/is=Yup6aQQ%7C%3Dup6RKKt%3Axxr%3D0-qpDofRt7Pf7mrPfrj7t%3DzrRfDUX%3AeQaQxg%3Dr%3F87KR6xqpxQQJQxelaxQaQxv8uOc5xQQQeQQQnaJ00QqpfVtB%3F*KUp7BHS Hqqy7XH6gX0QJQe%7CRup6lQQ%7C/of=50,590,442[/IMG]

9/20, 32lb male
[IMG]http://render-2.snapfish.com/render2/is=Yup6aQQ%7C%3Dup6RKKt%3Axxr%3D0-qpDPfRt7Pf7mrPfrj7t%3DzrRfDUX%3AeQaQxg%3Dr%3F87KR6xqpxQQJQxelaxQaQxv8uOc5xQQQeQQPQPalnnqpfVtB%3F*KUp7BHS Hqqy7XH6gX0Q0no%7CRup6lQQ%7C/of=50,590,442[/IMG]

Edit, looks like snapfish pics don't work..., not that it matters, we've all seen mangy coyotes, seen one, seen them all...

Is there any truth to the logic that mange is a sign of over population or that they are easier to call?

Anyway, two coyotes that won't be cold this winter.

later,
scruffy

[ September 29, 2008, 07:30 AM: Message edited by: scruffy ]
 

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Posted by Rich (Member # 112) on September 29, 2008, 09:02 AM:
 
scruffy,
My western Iowa area has never been what I would describe as over poulated with coyotes. Mange, and possible Parvo & distemper has still taken a sad toll on the coyotes here.
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on September 29, 2008, 09:06 AM:
 
Let's see? First, Geordie seems to know a hell of a lot about the subject. Is he a Vet? I thought he was a welder or a fabricator?

Second, I agree with Dave, I hardly ever see mange or fleas in my areas.

Third, Cal, you must be right? They woulodn't go to the trouble unless it was a serious situation. I know they did it, just don't know if it was rabies, but that makes the most sense....although I don't see how eating a cube would cure a coyote or a dog of rabies?

Fourth:

quote:

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Is there any truth to the logic that mange is a sign of over population or that they are easier to call? scruffy

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quote:

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There's another Brainard?

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Yes, there is a Brainard Nebraska

Rich let me know

[ September 30, 2008, 09:40 PM: Message edited by: The Bandit ]
 

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Posted by Rich (Member # 112) on October 01, 2008, 05:22 AM:
 
The Bandit,
I have a list of things to do this morning. Gonna check prices of nebraska hunting license, call your office in search of your home phone number, and setup a time to meet with you for a little scouting. Steve tells me that you are on vacation most of the time anyway, so we may as well do some calling.
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on October 01, 2008, 09:07 AM:
 
Take it easy on him, Rich. Don't walk his butt off.

Good huting. LB
 

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Posted by Rich (Member # 112) on October 01, 2008, 11:31 AM:
 
Leonard,
Walk Todd's butt off? My name ain't Huber, ya pin head!
 

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Posted by coyote whacker (Member # 639) on October 01, 2008, 12:48 PM:
 
TRNCO, cold is a relative term depending on where one lives, if you can get it at 10 degrees or below that point for a period of time at night then your going to kill off a big portion of mangy coyotes. They just cannot make the body heat needed even in the bales and will stress out or freeze to death. Our problem as other spots in the US we have been getting that for 3 days and then warms back up, if they have no fur they can only generate so much body heat once they are chilled down then there done.

I have seen some that stressed out and die in traps in 24hrs when the temps where in the higher 20's.lower 30's at night. Ranchers in this area found there share dead in hay stacks in Febuary last year they just couldn't take anymore, you can clean up an area if we have those really cold conditions night after night for a period of time.

The cold/warm patterns is what helps them keep going, if we have a real winter this year with 2 ft or more snow on the level and nightly temps in the single digits for a 7-10 days there will be alot less mange come next spring for sure. There are only so many places they can get to insulate them somewhat, but really cold temps will do them in or the ranchers can that find them sleeping on the square bales in the machine sheds.They are so worn down they just go to the house grab a .22 and the coyote never moves off the bale. A mercy killing is what I would call it
 

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Posted by Randy Roede (Member # 1273) on October 05, 2008, 07:59 AM:
 
Just talked to another rancher Friday that said he had found three coyote pups this summer about half grown around a stock dam. Two dead snotty nosed diahrea and one still barely alive, had hair. Sounds like parvo or distemper to me??
 

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Posted by Cdog911 (Member # 7) on October 05, 2008, 12:19 PM:
 
Sounds like parvovirus to me, Randy. I've seen a lot of greyhound puppies come down with it and that's exactly how it presents. Goes through them like wildfire.

On a related note, I came across an intersting article in my "stack of stuff" and thought I'd offer up the particulars as written. This article is By Danny Pence (Texas Tech) and Lamar Windberg (USDA/APHIS, entitled Impact of Sarcoptic Mange Epizootic On a Coyote Population, J. Wildl. Manage., 58(4):624-633.

The following abstract is published:

http://www.jstor.org/pss/3809675

Admittedly, this report offers a litany of very interesting information on the impact of mange in coyote population dynamics - far more than is addressed in the abstract - and is a good read if you can find it online. All I can find is the link to the abstract and first page.

Anyway, parse away.....

[ October 05, 2008, 12:20 PM: Message edited by: Cdog911 ]
 

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