This is topic Coyote vs. Badger? in forum Predator forum at The New Huntmastersbbs!.
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Posted by JeremyKS (Member # 736) on October 02, 2008, 04:03 PM:
I wanted to share this picture with everybody. One of my trail cameras took this picture and I thought was it a neat picture
Posted by Rich Higgins (Member # 3) on October 02, 2008, 04:28 PM:
Awesome photo, Jeremy. I doubt that it was a "versus" encounter though. Many reports of a symbiotic relationship between those two little guys. National Geographic aired a program that showed a badger and a coyote co-operatively working a prairie dog town. Camanzind described the same in one of his study reports. Many ****** tribes reported a working relationship between the two. J. Frank Dobie printed an illustration of a pre-Columbian Casas Grandes pot from Chihuahua, Mexico that featured a badger's head on one side and a coyotes head on the other, both in bas-relief.
The Mexican name for the badger is Tlalcoyote which means earth coyote or coyote that lives in the ground.
I've never seen a coyote and a badger together. I would absolutely sell Tim and Danny to the Gypsies for the chance to see that.
Posted by rainshadow1 (Member # 899) on October 02, 2008, 05:07 PM:
That's a great pic, Jeremy. And a neat little narrative Rich. (What kinda ******* were those?)
The Badger has his head down, but the Coyote sure doesn't appear too worried.
Very cool!
Posted by Cdog911 (Member # 7) on October 02, 2008, 05:52 PM:
Dobie doesn't say, but states that it is believed to have been fashioned over a thousand years ago. The Navajo have many tales of the relationship between the coyote and the badger. That's probably an organizational meeting between the two in preparation for the night's hunt.
Posted by onecoyote (Member # 129) on October 02, 2008, 05:58 PM:
That coyote is just trying to help a one eyed badger get a drink of water.
Posted by Rich Higgins (Member # 3) on October 02, 2008, 06:23 PM:
A coyote is what he is, so you never really know what is going on in that pointy little skull of his. If badger doesn't pony up dinner for coyote he may find an apple in his own mouth. I'll ask Gary to post a dandy pic that he took and the story that goes with it.
Posted by Paul Melching (Member # 885) on October 02, 2008, 06:56 PM:
Very cool Great catch Jeremy.
Posted by JeremyKS (Member # 736) on October 02, 2008, 07:16 PM:
Thats interesting rich, I didn't know that.
A good friend of mine saw 2 badgers and few swift fox standing off this summer. I don't think he ever saw the outcome but I would imagine the badger was trying to get the swift?
[ October 02, 2008, 07:18 PM: Message edited by: JeremyKS ]
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on October 02, 2008, 09:20 PM:
As far as Kit versus Badger, the kit Fox lives in a mounded hole, a lot like what the badger digs into for rodents. Could have been a homestead issue, but they would have no chance against an aggressive badger pair.
I saw a video clip some time ago of a confrontation between a badger and a lion, over a kill. I don't remember what it was that they were fighting over, or who killed it, but the badger drove off the lion.
Tell you what, there is almost nothing to grab a hold of, on a badger. The trickster probably gets a few squirrels the badger misses, but I do not think a coyote or a pair of coyotes could do much, (if any) harm to an adult badger.
Good hunting. LB
Posted by Locohead (Member # 15) on October 03, 2008, 03:33 PM:
I think badger is espanol is "tejon". I think.?
Very cool picture Jeremy. That badger seems almighty tall for a calm badger. Looks like he's standing on his tippy toes to me.
I shot a badger from close range once and only managed to rip open the under-side of the belly. HOLY SMOKES!!! I've never in my life heard a more ferocious screaming and growling as that critter jumped around in circles biting at his wound. Scary stuff!!! They look about as fast as a sloth but I bet he'd be almighty quick and scrappy fighting a critter his own size.
Posted by Wiley E (Member # 108) on October 03, 2008, 03:40 PM:
The symbiotic relation is this, the badger does the work and the coyote, being the ultimate opportunist, takes advantage of the badger's work. The Coyote can't hurt the badger and the badger can't catch the coyote. The coyote follows the badger looking for the easy meal that results when the badger's digging pushes a rodent from a different hole than the one the badger is digging down. The badger is only slightly annoyed by the coyote's presence but mostly ignores the coyote and goes about it's business. That's the symbiotic relation between the badger and coyote. Follow them sometime and you'll see.
~SH~
[ October 03, 2008, 03:42 PM: Message edited by: Wiley E ]
Posted by Lonny (Member # 19) on October 03, 2008, 05:07 PM:
A couple summers back, we were sitting on my Dad's deck and noticed a barn cat out in the field prowling for a ground squirrel or mouse. Dad said that particular cat hunted the field often.
A bit later we noticed the cat lugging a large ground squirrel back to the house. Suddenly out of the tall grass on the edge of the field a coyote came swooping in on the cat. The cat ran like hell for the nearest tree, but the coyote was gaining way too fast. Finally the cat dumped the squirrel which the coyote promptly grabbed and headed back into the timber with. From the way this played out, it almost appeared as if the coyote knew the cat would drop the squirrel, and live to catch more for the coyote to steal without a fight.
Posted by Rich Higgins (Member # 3) on October 03, 2008, 05:16 PM:
Scott, ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
did you write this one?
"Such a relationship between different species that benefits both is called mutualism. According to some, a different kind of dog—a coyote—teams up in such a relationship with a badger. The coyote's keen sense of smell and the badger's unrivaled ability as a digger are viewed as ready-made for partnership. According to this belief, the coyote locates inhabited rodent burrows, and the badger moves in to do the heavy earth moving, with the pair sharing the bounty. Others are more skeptical, believing that the cunning coyote has learned that trailing along behind a badger may reap rich rewards. As a badger roots out its hapless prey, a window of opportunity may open for the coyote—to snatch away dinner. Thus there may actually be two victims—the rodent who loses its life and the badger who loses a meal. Mutualism? Or thievery?"
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on October 03, 2008, 06:18 PM:
Yeah right, mutualism.
Same as when a coyote follows a tractor, catching squirrels the tractor misses. Interesting to note that archeologists have dug up pottery with a tractor on one side and a coyote on the other, which proves the close working relationship between the two species.
I think folks are putting too much into cooperation between coyotes and badgers. Evolution by now would have provided the coyote born in mixed litters.
Yeah, it has happened, but probably not as romantic as some would have us believe.
Good hunting. LB
Posted by Cdog911 (Member # 7) on October 03, 2008, 07:05 PM:
Killjoy
Posted by Cdog911 (Member # 7) on October 03, 2008, 07:06 PM:
Er, ... I mean,... how interesting. I couldn't agree more.
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on October 03, 2008, 10:13 PM:
Lance, you should run for public office.
Posted by Wiley E (Member # 108) on October 04, 2008, 04:40 AM:
Leonard: "...archeologists have dug up pottery with a tractor on one side and a coyote on the other.."
LMAO! TOUCHE!
My thoughts exactly!
Reminds me of those pictures that were circulating of the mule "supposedly" attacking the mountain lion as the lion dogs casually observe. Give me a break!
The mule simply got tired of packing the dead lion and took it's frustrations out on the dead lion. As if a mule could catch and kill a lion and as if a pack of lion dogs would simply sit there and watch. Even guys that should know better don't stop to think.
Can you picture a mule chasing a lion through the timber and rocks? LOL!
Sensationalism!
~SH~
Posted by Rich Higgins (Member # 3) on October 04, 2008, 06:10 PM:
Doubting Thomas's and Heathens, read this.
If it is print it MUST be true.
"This is an advantageous partnership for both animals because they benefit from each other’s strengths. The coyote has highly acute eyesight and badgers are extremely efficient diggers. The short term relationship these two species have for hunting persists because the morphological adaptations of the coyote and the badger are complementary to hunting small mammals such as ground squirrels. Current research suggests this relationship is mutualistic because benefits received from the relationship for both species are more beneficial than the costs of maintaining the relationship (Minta et al. 1992). "
"Abstract
Coyotes (Canis latrans) associating with badgers (Taxidea taxus) appeared to hunt Uinta ground squirrels (Spermophilus armatus) more effectively than lone coyotes. Coyotes with badgers consumed prey at higher rates (P = 0.09) and had an expanded habitat base and lower locomotion costs. Badgers with coyotes spent more time below ground and active (P = 0.02), and probably had decreased locomotion and excavation costs. Overall, prey vulnerability appeared to increase when both carnivores hunted in partnership. Complementary morphological adaptations and predatory strategies, interspecific tolerance, and behavioral flexibility allowed them to form temporary hunting associations. The following ecological circumstances may have increased the likelihood of this interaction in our study area: relatively high densities of predators and prey; relatively long-lived predator populations; a vegetative structure that impeded solitary hunting by coyotes; a high connectivity of prey burrows that decreased hunting success of badgers; an absence of interaction with humans; a stressful physical environment. must must
Posted by Wiley E (Member # 108) on October 05, 2008, 07:01 AM:
Here's something to ponder, if the badger / coyote relation is "mutually beneficial", why don't you see the badger following the coyote instead of the coyote following the badger?
CONDITIONED RESPONSE!
Coyotes associate badgers with easy meals and easy holes.
Coyotes associate p. dog hunters with easy meals.
Could it be said that p. dog hunters and coyotes have a "symbiotic" relation or is that another CONDITIONED RESPONSE?
~SH~
Posted by Kokopelli (Member # 633) on October 05, 2008, 07:49 AM:
Ok;
"Coyotes associate badgers with......"
"Coyotes associate p. dog hunters with......"
Several more examples could be added up to & including the sound of a tractor at a dead pile.
Conditioned response. Makes sense.
But.......Is it possible that a simple 'conditioned response' starts with a rudimentary reasoning ability?? "Gunfire equals food".
From a coyote's point of view; "Truck is moving - safe / stay.
Truck is stopping - bad / run."
Is there a basic thought process going on here, or just instinctive 'fight or flight' actions??
Posted by Randy Roede (Member # 1273) on October 05, 2008, 07:55 AM:
Wiley and Rich,
are all those words real or did you just make them up??? Jesus I got a headache just tryin to pronounce them let alone have any frickin idea of what half of them meant!!!LOL
Good Posts!!!!!
You do see coyotes and badgers going across the prairies alot and also eagles watching from overhead, diving in to steal whatever from whoever. Not that unusual to spot them on the dog towns when setting upon a stand overlooking a dogtown.
Posted by Tim Behle (Member # 209) on October 05, 2008, 09:56 PM:
Wiley,
Badgers don't follow coyotes or anything else because they are just like little women with bloated bellies and a bad case of PMS. Irrational, Uncooperative and ill tempered, and if you see either one coming towards you, you'd best just get out of it's way !
Posted by DAA (Member # 11) on October 06, 2008, 08:47 AM:
"The symbiotic relation is this, the badger does the work and the coyote, being the ultimate opportunist, takes advantage of the badger's work. ...Follow them sometime and you'll see."
I've witnessed this, twice - both times while shooting prairie dogs. And have seen badger and coyote in close proximity to one another two other times (both times from the truck, while driving between stands). I think the badgers would probably like to see the coyotes die in a fire, but since they can't make that happen, they just keep on going about their business and the coyotes keep on taking advantage where they can.
- DAA
Posted by nd coyote killer (Member # 40) on October 08, 2008, 10:41 PM:
I just seen it happen two weeks ago and i would agree the badger is annoyed but can do nothing about it so he deals with it and keeps his nose to the grinding wheel. The national geographic version of them carrying on a conversation while hunting together is just untterly ridiculous
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