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Author
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Topic: Load evaluation
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted May 17, 2012 10:25 AM
So, how do we determine what's perfection?
A ladder test, check for nodes? Seat to the lands, or stay within the magazine length? Do we check 300 yard groups or leave it at 100? Not mess with this shit, or what?
I have to do a bit of fine tuning, just to see what's possible. A drudgery, but nobody else will do it for me.
(serious question) When are you satisfied with what you see on paper?
Good hunting. LB
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 31449 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted May 17, 2012 03:48 PM
Never mind. I guess nobody spends time doing load evaluation.
Good hunting. LB
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 31449 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
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JD
HONORARY OKIE .... and Tim's at fault!
Member # 768
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posted May 17, 2012 03:48 PM
5 under 1/2 inch at 100yds. unless your shooting an AI in which case I would only settle for 7 under 1/4 inch at 400yds if you throw out the 6 fliers.
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Jason
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What do Obama & TA17Rem have in common........both are clueless asshats!!!
Posts: 1456 | From: NE. | Registered: Dec 2005
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted May 17, 2012 04:12 PM
How did you know? Yes, AI quarter inchers.
But seriously, does anybody play around with seating depth and do you know what ....OCW is?
Good hunting. LB
[ May 17, 2012, 04:15 PM: Message edited by: Leonard ]
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 31449 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted May 17, 2012 04:26 PM
read about it here: http://optimalchargeweight.embarqspace.com/
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 31449 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
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jimanaz
2nd Place RICHARD FARNSWORTH LOOK-A-LIKE CONTEST
Member # 3689
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posted May 17, 2012 07:14 PM
In my opinion, load evaluation and development first depends on what a person shoots. Folks who shoot stuff with hair on it primarily are less likely to get as wrapped up in finding the perfect load as the guy that shoots paper off a bench. The rewards and benefits of shaving a few, or even several thousands, off group size lend little satisfaction to a guy shooting coyotes at 100 yards or even a sheep at several hundred.
The vast majority of reloaders don't have the equipment to hold tight tolerances, not to mention the technique and patience. Combine that with all the extra efforts in brass preparation and the scale really tips for most hand loaders.
Hand loading can be as tedious and involved as a person cares to make it. Myself, I find something that suits me and am happy with it and very seldom seek to improve upon it. Others who are perfectionists, anal, OCD, bored, etc, etc. like to play more with tweaking this or that. Chasing the perfect seating depth, optimum charge weight, best bullet, primer, powder, trim length, neck tension, yada yada yada, ends where, or does it ever end?
Posts: 940 | From: AZ | Registered: Oct 2010
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TA17Rem
Hello, I'm the legendary Tim Anderson, Field Marshall, Southern Minneesota Sector
Member # 794
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posted May 17, 2012 07:50 PM
I enjoy reloading and tinkering around with load developement.. I have most of the stuff I need on hand so its no big deal, plus its a good way to get in some trigger time..
I'm not to critical with seating depth as I find that .30 out from lands is good enough in most of my rifles and a bullet seated out any farther could just be trouble later on...
For powders i like to try 2-3 of them and I select powders that give high vel. along with good load density and usually get lucky and get good accuracy as well.
I also have a good assortment of primers so after i have found a good load I will then test a few brands of primers. I'm looking for a nice rounded group and at times just a change in primers will do it..
Bullets I choose the ones that have a history of good accuracy at 100 yards and beyond and work the best for me for keeping hide damage to a minimum..
I look at it this way if I'm going to spend over 800.00 on a rifle I'm going to get as much out of it as I can and will settle for a clover-leaf group....
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What if I told you, the left wing and right wing both belong to same bird!
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted May 17, 2012 07:51 PM
Put me down with the yada yada yadah. I am not satisfied with minute of coyote. I try/seek perfection since I began my coyote hunting at night and at long range. Well, long range, to a point which for me is not much beyond 400 yards. But, shooting a coyote between the eyes at 400 yards takes a little more than average accuracy.
As I have said, numerous times, it wastes valuable hunting time searching all hither and yon for a coyote way out there, in the dark, without a strong suspicion that he is (indeed) laying there dead. Nothing messes up a hunt like stumbling around in the dark looking for a coyote that ain't there, or worse yet, he's there, but a hundred yards away in a slightly different direction, because he wasn't well marked.
Anyway, I have always operated under the assumption that you can't be too accurate. Okay, dumping a coyote at routine daylight stand distances doesn't require pinpoint accuracy but pinpoint accuracy isn't wasted. And, sometimes needed. Everybody has been faced with the second or third animal escaping and stopping for a last look. Well, what you gonna do, let him go or do you have a legitimate shot? That's what it's all about, as far as hunting coyotes with an accurate rifle. A man needs to figure out exactly where his confidence is? If it's 250 yards, that's fine. But if you can connect a little further out there, that's okay too. If it's skill or equipment or a combination there is nothing wrong with establishing your personal limits.
So, that's where I'm at...more or less.
Good hunting. LB
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 31449 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
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jimanaz
2nd Place RICHARD FARNSWORTH LOOK-A-LIKE CONTEST
Member # 3689
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posted May 17, 2012 08:37 PM
quote:
But, shooting a coyote between the eyes at 400 yards takes a little more than average accuracy.
Yeah it does, and it's not something the average, or even waaaay above aveage guy can do on a regular basis in a hunting situation, day or night. Too many variables and contributing factors.
So where do you stop chasing? You can't possibly believe that the loads you've been swearing by for the last 40 years are the BEST, can you? You could take more steps in brass prep, no? Do you check each cartridge for concentricity? Do you charge every case down to the exact grain? On what kind of scale? How many coyotes is that last little bit of development going to net you? How good is good enough?
If a guy is a good enough marksman that refining a load to the BEST, whatever that is, is the big difference maker, he needs to be putting that talent towards setting records in competitions.
I didn't say anything about minute of coyote. Granted, it'll work in a lot of what I do, but I still try to remove as much mechanical error and variation as I REASONABLY can. When I fuck up I take solice in knowing it WASN'T my equipment. Perfect is not achievable. Again, how close is close enough?
Posts: 940 | From: AZ | Registered: Oct 2010
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted May 17, 2012 10:03 PM
Where are you going with this? "You can't possibly believe that the loads you've been swearing by for the last 40 years are the BEST, can you?"
Yeah, I kinda do think that.
I don't check every cartridge for concentricity, but I could. I seat all my hunting loads with a chamber type Wilson seating die and they are consistently within one or two thousandths of dead nuts, or good enough, in my view. And, yes, every charged weighed to the tenth of a grain on a beam scale-I can't help it.
No, there is not much more I could do in brass prep. I do all the weighing and separating beyond reason.
"How many coyotes is that last little bit of development going to net you? How good is good enough?"
Who knows? But I am confident that I have done all I can do to eliminate everything but the human factor in the equation.
"Perfect is not achievable. Again, how close is close enough?"
No, I guess it isn't, and that's the question: What IS close enough? I think everybody will have a different answer for that and I think that is fine. The rules I live by may not be for everyone.
But, who's setting limits here and why do we need to put everyone in the same box? It is what you make it. I don't give a shit what anybody else does but if it makes me feel good, I'll do it without complaint nor will I advocate it for anybody else.
Good hunting. LB
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 31449 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
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jimanaz
2nd Place RICHARD FARNSWORTH LOOK-A-LIKE CONTEST
Member # 3689
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posted May 17, 2012 10:44 PM
Ugh, I deleted my entire reply. ![[Mad]](mad.gif)
Maybe tommorrow.
Posts: 940 | From: AZ | Registered: Oct 2010
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted May 17, 2012 11:27 PM
I hate when you do that shit!
Well, there's always tomorrow, tomorrow, I love you tomorrow. You're only a day away!
Good hunting. LB
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 31449 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
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knockemdown
Our staff photo editing Guru, par excellence
Member # 3588
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posted May 18, 2012 05:10 AM
DAA is THE MAN when it comes to this stuff...
Posts: 2202 | From: behind fascist lines | Registered: Mar 2010
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DAA
Utah/Promoted WESTERN REGIONAL Hunt Director
Member # 11
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posted May 18, 2012 05:40 AM
Ehhhh... Used to be "okay" maybe. Just garden variety tinker anymore. Appreciate the vote of confidence just the same though.
- DAA
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"Oh yeah, they're gonna talk to you, and talk to you, and talk to you about individual freedom, but they see a free individual, it's gonna scare 'em." -- George Hanson, Easy Rider, 1969.
Rocky Mountain Varmint Hunter
Posts: 2676 | From: Salt Lake City, UT | Registered: Jan 2003
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knockemdown
Our staff photo editing Guru, par excellence
Member # 3588
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posted May 18, 2012 06:11 AM
Don't sell yourself short, DAVE!!!
Lots of juicy stuff right there...
Posts: 2202 | From: behind fascist lines | Registered: Mar 2010
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Rich
2,000th post PAKMAN
Member # 112
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posted May 18, 2012 07:25 AM
I fire form my brass to fit the chamber, and set the sizer die to barely bump the shoulder. Being a velocity nut, I choose a powder from a manual that yielded close to highest velocity in their tests. I load very close to their listed maximum, and if no pressure signs I will go a bit higher than their maximum. I try to seat the bullet so that it is barely off of the lands. Not being the best shot in the world, if I can get three holes touching on a three shot group, then that is good enough. I do like to watch the velocity numbers on my chronograph because I see a plus if my shots yield a lot of duplicate velocities. In my limited experience, I have found that a pencil barrel is more sensitive to changes in my loads than is a barrel of heavier contour. I like Shilen's #3 contour barrels myself.
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If you call the coyotes in close, you won't NEED a high dollar range finder.
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TOM64
Knows what it's all about
Member # 561
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posted May 18, 2012 08:31 AM
I seat a bullet to kiss the lands, choose a powder that gives good velocity and find pressure. Test in the middle of summer and if I can get 5 shots at MOA or under I'm fine with that for a hunting rifle cause I can't shoot any better than that under field conditions.
For a Bench gun, I don't have a clue as my guns seem to be as good as I am or better as things are.
400 yards between the eyes at night from a truck, everytime? Wow, I'm way behind...
Oh and I do most of my bench shooting at 200 yards.
Posts: 2283 | From: okieland | Registered: Feb 2005
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TOM64
Knows what it's all about
Member # 561
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posted May 18, 2012 08:32 AM
BTW, how far apart are the eyes on those western coyotes? ![[Wink]](wink.gif)
Posts: 2283 | From: okieland | Registered: Feb 2005
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted May 18, 2012 09:29 AM
We standardized @ 3½ inches some time ago. Every time? I didn't say that, but I don't take a shot unless I'm pretty confident of success. If you hear the plop, it's sure as hell worth walking out there.
Good hunting. LB
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 31449 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
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jimanaz
2nd Place RICHARD FARNSWORTH LOOK-A-LIKE CONTEST
Member # 3689
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posted May 18, 2012 09:29 AM
Anyhoo...
I wasn't going anywhere, just blathering I guess.
I think I was trying to say that load development can be as simple or complex as an individual chooses to make it and there's always something else to mess with, if you want to. The "best" or the "perfect" load is simply unattainable, IMO. Nothing is static. Good enough is a relative level to each individual and one guy's standards apply only to that one guy.
For example: Last summer I shot a pretty impressive (to me) group from one of my rifles. Do I have the best load? Nope, but I ain't changing a damn thing. Good enough!
Posts: 940 | From: AZ | Registered: Oct 2010
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted May 18, 2012 09:31 AM
Ooh! Zen! I love it!
Good hunting. El Bee
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 31449 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted May 18, 2012 10:04 AM
Anyway, forget about me and what I do. This is an attempt to find out what (you, out there) do about your rifle, your load and your practical accuracy. Like DAA, he has wrote it out for all to see, but what part of it do (you, out there) do to make sure you connect?
Everyone will be different. I am interested in what you do because I believe that coyote hunters as a group are fairly knowledgeable and have a certain amount of ability.
(and Zen; you know who you are)
So give it up already!
Good hunting. LB
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 31449 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
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Kokopelli
SENIOR DISCOUNT & Dispenser of Sage Advice
Member # 633
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posted May 18, 2012 10:53 AM
I'm going to toss this in, for what it's worth;...... YMMV!!!!
The places that I call & the stands that I choose, I rarely even have the opportunity to shoot over 100 yards. The last time I shot a coyote at 200 yards was years ago & a couple of states away. My go-to boom stick is the shotgun & my long range shooter (50 to 100 yards) is usually the Mini-14 with it's 1/2 minute of coyote accuracy. If I feel the need for more accuracy than that, I have a really sweet Thompson Contender set up as a carbine. I dialed it in at 100 by knocking the centers out of a few clay pigeons & called it good.
My point is, in my case, for my hunting style, the time spent dicking around with rifles & loads to achieve sub-minute of angle would not put as much fur in the truck as the same amount of time spent scouting new areas & fine tuning stand locations in proven spots.
I do admire & somewhat envy guys that can take coyotes out at 300 - 400 & 500 yards, but it's a skill that I rarely need. Besides, this quest for accuracy can be addictive. I knew a guy up in Wash. at the gun club that re barreled a rifle & started from scratch because it wouldn't shoot under 1/2 inch @ 100. He spent the summer at the bench & I spent the summer bowfishing. I still ended up getting just as many coyotes that fall as he did.
Again, this works for me..........if you're out in the wide open spaces, none of the above may apply to you. ![[Cool]](cool.gif)
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And lo, the Light of the Trump shown upon the Darkness and the Darkness could not comprehend it.
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jimanaz
2nd Place RICHARD FARNSWORTH LOOK-A-LIKE CONTEST
Member # 3689
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posted May 18, 2012 12:23 PM
I pick a bullet first, based upon what I know, have read, and or heard about it's accuracy and terminal performance. Then I choose 2 or 3 powders that I think will get me the ballpark MV I'm looking for. Primers, I'm a whore. I've always used Remington primers, so that's what I prefer, but if they're not available, CCI primers make the thing go bang too.
Then comes the basic ladder test in .5 grain increments. Based upon what I see on the chronograph and the paper, I narrow it down and do it again in .3 grain increments. Repeat until I've narrowed it down to the powder I'm going to use. Then, if I haven't already come across something that trips my trigger, test charge weights in .1 grain increments. I'm fortunate in the fact that I have the luxury of being able to call friends who have mucho real life experience, and never hesitate to do so.
With my machine guns, I never play with seating depth or concern myself with proximity to the lands. They are what they are. I seat 'em at book or mag length and leave it at that. On the bolts, I may play with it a bit.
I don't weigh brass. I don't clean primer pockets or flash holes except when blowing the case off after the acetone bath following sizing. I meter charges on an electronic combo gizmo. .223 loads, + or - .2 grain, everything else is dead nuts. Why the difference? Just cuz. And the powder I use for the .223s meters so nice, I rarely have any variation. I get into an assembly line mind set and I ain't stopping to fuck around with .2 grain on a 300 yard max load.
My equipment is middle of the road stuff, nothing fancy. I think it's a good match for my barbaric and basic reloading practices.
What's good enough? I strive for 1/2 MOA. Sometimes I get lucky and end up with less than that. Sometimes I run into good enough before I get there and after I've run into damn frustrated.
In a nutshell, that's how I roll.
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted May 18, 2012 01:00 PM
One thing that a lot of guys have a hard time with. Knowing when he is getting all he can get, out of a rifle barrel. If you have a ¾" barrel, switching primers won't make it a one holer.
Good hunting. LB
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
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