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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on June 24, 2004, 06:29 PM:
 
And, what do you HANDLOAD?

Can you give us your reasons why you don't handload?

Maybe we can change your mind? Handloading your own ammunition has so many benefits.

I was loading a hundred rounds this afternoon, and got to looking around. I have twenty sets of dies, in addition to the Wilson neck sizers and straight line seating dies. I have fifteen different powders on the shelf. Not really enough, have let it get a little low, lately. I handload everything I own except 25Auto and shotshells.

So, the question of the day is: What's stopping you?

For those that do; a small, informal survey.

What do you handload for? Rifle, handgun, shotshells? How much shooting do you do, annually/WAG? How long have you been so engaged? Whatever you want to talk about is okay with me.

Good hunting. LB

edit: try this site for a refresher:

http://www.aeroballisticsonline.com/

[ June 24, 2004, 07:25 PM: Message edited by: Leonard ]
 

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Posted by Jack Roberts (Member # 13) on June 24, 2004, 11:19 PM:
 
Leonard,
You made a pretty good case there for not handloading. You pointed out most of the negatives but none of the positives.

I don't think I have shot a factory rifle load for 35 years or longer. I may have shot a pistol load as recently as 30 years ago.

Jack
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on June 24, 2004, 11:44 PM:
 
Hey, be my guest, Jack.

If I was negative, it wasn't intentional. I personally believe every person that shoots a centerfire rifle or pistol should get into handloading. But, the various reasons are a little like peeling back layers, they don't realize what they don't know, and almost always think it's a means to save money. (not hardly)Handloading makes for a more enlightened shooter.

So, what's your story?

Hello? LB
 

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Posted by Tim Behle (Member # 209) on June 25, 2004, 05:04 AM:
 
Leonard,

I handload for everything but my rimfires. None of my centerfire rifles have ever shot a factory round.

The last factory stuff I bought was for a handgun, and I bought it because I needed the brass. I brought the box home, shot it up, then reloaded it the way that I wanted it.

It just doesn't seem right to have someone else decide what is best for my rifles.
 

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Posted by DAA (Member # 11) on June 25, 2004, 06:36 AM:
 
Same as Tim. Except for 10 rounds of .223 that were given to me once, not one of my centerfire rifle barrels has ever had a single round of factory ammo down it. Not in my entire life!

- DAA
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on June 25, 2004, 09:28 AM:
 
You fellas, I knew that much. But who out there doesn't want to get into it because it seems like a pain in the butt? Or, whatever reason? Any volunteers?

Good hunting. LB

confession: my SKS has seen some factory rounds.
 

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Posted by GCrock (Member # 351) on June 25, 2004, 11:06 AM:
 
Leonard,
I'll take a stab at it from a non-reloaders point of view. The reasons I don't reload are as follows:
-lack of knowledge on how to do it--I have several friends who said they would show me once I got the equipment, but I don't even know where to start at this point.
-Time. I barely have time to hunt let alone sit down and reload shells. I have 2 young kids, and they take up a suprising amount of my time.
-The volume of shooting that I do is very small compared to lots of guys. Would I shoot more if I reloaded? Probably so. In my area, the coyotes have been hit hard by mange and other diseases, I just don't shoot a lot of shells at coyotes.
-Factory ammo is pretty good. I don't go out and punch paper to see how many gnats I can hit--3 shots within an inch is good enough for me, good enough hunting accuracy.
-Friends who reload. I have a couple friends who reloaded shells for my 221 fireball and 220 swift. They are not "perfect" for these rifles, but they are pretty darn good.
What I think I'm giving up is performance (limited to factory ammo bullets at factory speeds). Also, I am paying more for it (the swift is a perfect example)when I buy factory.
I feel I am making better use of my time by hunting instead of reloading. Will it cost me an animal or two? Yes. Will I have more time to get out and hunt? Yes. That's how I look at it. By the way, great place you have here Leonard.
Greg C.
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on June 25, 2004, 11:43 AM:
 
Welcome to the New Huntmasters, GCrock. Glad to have you on board.

Wow! For a first post, you pretty much nailed it. All the reasons I might have suspected, and it's too bad, really. Hunting with your own handloads offers much satisfaction, and confidence. It's good therapy, part of the ritual in preparing for the hunt.

As far as spending more time hunting, versus "reloading" well, that has never been a legit issue, for me. I might as well say that mowing the lawn keeps me from hunting, if you get my drift? But, buying all the stuff needed, is a major undertaking, no question about that.

And, I completely understand the mystery angle. Absolutely the best method of getting started is to arm-bend a friend. Hardly anyone likes to be perceived as ignorant, so they don't ask. Instead, they might say that they just don't have the time, or the interest.

I don't know? At one time, it wasn't so hard to jump in with both feet, but now, it seems that there is always something else we need?

I remember, way back when; I used to buy Hodgdon's 4831 in the square paper canister for $1.95 per pound. In fact, I still have one, from before they started marking the date. I have a "can" (just the can) of H414 and H380, as well, and both have a 1975 date, but the 4831 is probably from the sixties? Don't know why I have kept them in the loading room? Just keepsake, maybe?

Now, the price is way too much, and then there is that phoney shipping charge for hazardous material. Bullets haven't gone up nearly as much as has powder, wonder why?

Okay, enough strolling down memory lane.
Good post. Thanks for sharing.

Good hunting. LB
 

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Posted by Q-Wagoner (Member # 33) on June 25, 2004, 12:15 PM:
 
If it is “factory” fix it. Guns or ammo. LOL That’s my take.

Good hunting.

Q,
 

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Posted by Randy Buker (Member # 134) on June 25, 2004, 06:05 PM:
 
I don't reload either. Same reasons as above.

I don't shoot that much. I sight in, shoot a few crows over the summer, maybe a gopher or a skunk from time to time and then just predators all winter. Most of my shots are well within 200 yards and all my rifles will shoot just fine to that range and usually a lot farther. I just haven't found a need to do something else with my limited time.

Randy
 

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Posted by AllPredatorCalls.com (Member # 347) on June 25, 2004, 06:48 PM:
 
I also stopped reloading a few years back.. and stored all my rcbs gear & dies. Many reasons - to include shooting a bow and bow hunting, ATVing, coyote hunting, all in my "spare time" after trying to build a business and run it 12 hours a day 7 days a week. If a boiled it down to one reason, I guess its TIME.. NOT ENOUGH OF IT..

I'm well aware of the better accuracy you can achieve when you work up a well tested load reloading.. With that said, One of the reasons I recently convinced myself to buy a rem 700 in .204 ruger is to be able to take advantage of the factory ammo that produces 4200+ fps with solid accuracy as reported by a few firearms writers that I respect... Guess I'll see..

AP
 

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Posted by Krustyklimber (Member # 72) on June 25, 2004, 09:51 PM:
 
What's stopping me...

Dyslexia.

I cannot deal with numbers reliably enough to feel safe...

I do reload shotshells with our Pacific progressive press, but that's becuase it does all the thinking part for me... powder is die measured, and so is the shot... no way I can get 81 gr instead of 18 (not like 81 gr would fit, but you understand my fears?)

Red does the rifles, and I cannot ever remember buying factory ammo for any of them.

I hate paper punching... I really hate ladder testing... and I hate the range most of all...

I like just field shootin, I seem to be better at it, and can't shoot a group under an inch to save my life, Red can get inside a dime with the same gun I shoot 2"... but I can hit a rock 600yds away.

Krusty
 

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Posted by UTcaller (Member # 8) on June 26, 2004, 10:07 AM:
 
Well I'm like most of you guys here,I have always reloaded for my guns.Never shoot factory ammo so I can't say if it's worth it or not.I agree with Tim that I don't want somebody else deciding what's best for my guns.GOOD HUNTING C.O

[ June 26, 2004, 10:08 AM: Message edited by: UTcaller ]
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on June 26, 2004, 10:55 AM:
 
About what I expected, you either do or you don't, except for one twist. I am surprised at the response from AP, he used to; but he got tired of it. The way I have (had) it figured, almost everybody that handloads is (are) diehards, can't ever see them changing.

Krusty's problem would never have occured to me, although my son has the same attitude about punching paper. Bare minimum. Only gets interested in live targets.

I tend to think that varmint and predator hunters would have the highest percentage of handloaders, overall.

Good hunting. LB
 

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Posted by AllPredatorCalls.com (Member # 347) on June 26, 2004, 04:51 PM:
 
Leonard, not "tired". I really enjoyed it.. but I aso really enjoy shooting bow, ATVing, 2 kids under 8, business... TIME and a dedicate space in my jam packed garage are my reasons..

AP
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on June 26, 2004, 05:20 PM:
 
Sorry about that, Mr Jones. Didn't mean to put words in your mouth. But, you might be back one of these days, especially if that incurable disease "accuracy" bites you.

But, you know, keeping your stuff safe and secure from the kids is what prompted me to build a special room with three locks, just for handloading. I try to avoid the word: "reloading"
because it conveys a sense of being second rate. It's far from second rate;
more like superior.

Good hunting. LB
 

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Posted by Jim B (Member # 343) on June 26, 2004, 07:30 PM:
 
I dont reload at the moment.

I am still trying to figure out if the benefits outweigh the expense and time.

I have a source locally that is a small shop reloader that will custom load any combination of bullet and cartridge that I wish for about half of anything off of the shelf at the local gun shops. His ammo is well better than average, maybe not as good as I could do maybe as good. His prices are such that there is a very small cost differential to be saved per box of shells. I could never in 5 years break even on the cost of equipment.

I do not have high volume shooting available to me and what I do have I can accomplish (heresy, I know) with the military surplus .223. I also shoot a number one in .243 but it really does not get a terribly large amount of shooting at any one time.

So, the advantages for me are that I could marginally get better ammo crafted for my specific rifles, the cost per box of shells would be somewhat less, and I would just get the satisfaction of knowing that I put together the cartridge that I just fired.

The disadvantage to me would be the initial outlay in money to purchase equipment and supplies. This money could be used to pay for a hunting trip where I could use factory ammo to kill a deer or a coyote or a pig. If I buy the equipment I will have exceeding good ammo and correspondingly less opportunity to use it on filling my freezer.

I am not saying that factory ammo is better than reloads but in my circumstances and hunting endeavors my ammo/rifle capabilities are much better than that required for me hit a deer with.
In other words, I do not have a NEED to reload in order to be successful.

Jim
 

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Posted by Rich Higgins (Member # 3) on June 26, 2004, 07:50 PM:
 
Nine calibers that I shoot are wildcats, so I have no option but to hand/reload. I have no idea how factory rounds perform in my centerfire rifles, each one shoots custom loads specifically tailored for that individual rifle. Tyler and I both have TC Carbines in .223 and we have to keep our ammo seperate because both use different loads. Not a big problem.
 

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Posted by DAA (Member # 11) on June 26, 2004, 07:52 PM:
 
You'll never "save money" by handloading. Hell, for quite awhile, I was shooting upwards of 10,000 rounds of centerfire a year at prairie dogs, jack rabbits and rock chucks, and I've never come close to breaking even on equipment and supplies. Maybe a high volume target shooter, especially pistol or shotgun, might actually come out ahead by handloading, but there is no way I ever will. It would be MUCH less expensive for me to shoot factory ammo. Of course, anymore, there's no such thing as factory ammo for most of my rifles...

- DAA
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on June 26, 2004, 08:11 PM:
 
Jim, I see your point, completely. Getting someone else to load for you is a step in the right direction, but. Personally, I wouldn't load for somebody else if they paid me, my time is too valuable.

The one thing, there is no excaping the fact that handloaders are generally a lot more knowledgeable shooters. They have done their homework and are not hazy about their numbers; velocity, drop, mid range trajectory, all that stuff. Folks that buy factory ammo with different lot numbers can't even be assured that the next box they buy will shoot to the same spot. And, it probably won't.

On a max load, I would not want to be responsible doing a guy a favor. You wouldn't have the opportunity for testing and determining just what is the best compromise between performance and safety; in his gun.

I hear you on the pay back. You might as well forget that. It is not a means of saving money. On the other hand, pure money cannot buy the best hand tailored ammunition, so it's hard to put a value on it. Shooting deer at a hundred yards doesn't require the finest accuracy, that's true enough.

But, there is a separation between handloaders and those that shoot factory ammunition. Factory folks almost never get into a conversation about minimum hide damage, or suitable bullets for a specific rifling twist, etc. And, that provides for endless and ernest discussion, you can believe that!

Good hunting LB
 

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Posted by Jack Roberts (Member # 13) on June 26, 2004, 09:10 PM:
 
I even build the airplanes I fly. Yes, that probably doesn't save any money either, but I get what I want.

What I want is important to me and the only way to get that in the shooting sports is to handload.

On a basic level, handloading can be cheaper. To do it really well, it will not be cheaper, but sure will be better.

Jack
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on June 26, 2004, 10:32 PM:
 

quote:

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Of course, anymore, there's no such thing as factory ammo for most of my rifles...

- DAA

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What he means here, is just like what Rich is saying: they are shooting nonfactory cartridges, Wildcats or Improved, and that means there is work to be done at the loading bench long before they can pull the trigger. You usually don't do that, unless you can gain some advantage. Not entirely true, some people just want to be different, but most guys see a distinct improvement over handloaded standard cartridges. A lot of work for incremental improvements, but some feel it's worth it. But, when it works, there is no comparison, the level of performance is beyond what you can buy, off the shelf. These guys are dedicated nuts.
(with all due respect)

Good hunting. LB

[ June 26, 2004, 10:33 PM: Message edited by: Leonard ]
 

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Posted by Jim B (Member # 343) on June 27, 2004, 05:02 AM:
 
I am going to the handloading side of the force slowly but surely. One of the driving forces is that I really do want either a 6.5-284 or a 6.5-06, or a 6.5 WSM. Seems if I do break down and get a wildcat cartridge then I will be in the position of being required to reload. Once I have the basic equipment then I will reload them all.

Jim
 

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Posted by Rich Higgins (Member # 3) on June 27, 2004, 07:52 AM:
 
A caveat, Jim B. There are no twelve step programs for addicted loaders.
 

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Posted by Q-Wagoner (Member # 33) on June 27, 2004, 09:14 AM:
 
Also with reloading comes a sense of satisfaction. It makes me feel more apart of what I do. I square all of my brass and the the primer pockets, chamfer both the necks and the flash hole and clean up the necks with my K&M neck turner. All of the charges for my coyote loads will get weighed individually and close attention is paid to the OAL of the cartage. When I am done I have a product that I can be 100% confidant in. Confidants in your rifle and ammunition are critical. (for me anyway.)

There are some great factory rounds available but in most cases you can squeeze out better accuracy and velocity (performance) by hand rolling your own.

I primarily shoot a custom rifle with a trued receiver, tuned trigger, match grade stainless steel barrel, competition recoil lug, titanium alloy firing pen with Wolf Springs and a Harris/McMillan extractor. Shooting “factory” ammo through this rifle would be like running unleaded gas through a dragster. LOL It defeats the purpose.

Good hunting.

Q,
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on June 27, 2004, 09:59 AM:
 
Yup, nothing like building your own miniature ICBM's. Keep working on Jimbo, he's waivering. LB
 

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Posted by Greenside (Member # 10) on June 27, 2004, 11:01 AM:
 
I'm really not doing much reloading at this time. Kinda lost the desire to mist PD's seven or eight years ago. I think my day's of buying IMR4895 and H414 by the keg are about over. Right now I own and shoot 3 different 22-250's. I have one die set for each one, each one is set up for a specific bullet for that gun. It probably would be easier for me to go out and buy a couple of boxes of bullets when I run low, but I probably can reload 40 or 50 rounds faster than I can ride across town to buy some.

I also do a limited amount of reloading for my 338 mag, 264 mag, 260 and 25-06. Maybe 20 rounds a year for each one.

Dennis
 

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Posted by Az-Hunter (Member # 17) on June 27, 2004, 12:36 PM:
 
I have been a reloader since age 15, banging out shotshells in an old Lee hand loader...you know, the one where you use a hammer for pounding primers,wads and crimping. We've come a long way baby!
I no longer reload for shotgun, I just don't shoot enough anymore.I bird hunt once or twice a year, and no longer shoot competition shotgun. At $3.29 a box at Wallmart, you can't beat it.
Centerfire rifle and pistol cartridge reloading is another matter. Real savings are realized, if it weren't, I most likely would buy my ammunition too. Aside from the tailored loading, pride of craftsmenship, wildcat scenario, standard caliber loadings can realize tremendous savings versus buying them over the counter.
I just spent an hour or so, crunching numbers, now these are my numbers as far as pricing components, they may vary plus or minus where you get them, or if you cast or swage your own bullets....lots of variables.For 1000 rounds of .17 Rem, a guy is going to shell out around $800.00 for factory stuff. Taking into consideration the purchase of 1000 new brass, I realize a savings of $340.00, the next six or eight thousand my savings jumps to around $610.00 per thousand. In .22 hornet I save around $220.00 the first thousand, then for the next six or eight thousand I save $350.00.
Different calibers, due to powder consumption and bullet and brass price will vary, but to somehow think your not saving money is absurd, Im not sure where that idea came from? The savings from loading of the first 1000 rounds of .17 rem and .22 hornet would cover the cost of a Dillion RL 550, a good electronic scale and case trimmer.
During my 25 year stint in competitive pistol and revolver shooting, I would shoot around 3,000 to 5,000 rounds a month practicing and in competition. If I didn't reload I would have spent thousands of dollars needlessly. Trust me, if I could have bought the ammunition cheaper I would have. Money and time saved will always get my attention, instead, I spent many hours in front of my Dillion crunching out cheap practice and competition ammo.
Of course the question arises, how many fellas shoot a thousand rounds of anything in a year? A typical predator hunter, and I know a few:) probably shoots less than 250 rounds a year from his hunting rig between sight in, casual practice and actually killing coyotes. In these instances, yeah, I suppose a guy isn't going to save a hell of alot by the time he sinks money in all the "stuff" we handloaders need. All I know is, Ive saved literally thousands of dollar over the course of 35 years of hunting and competitive shooting.
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on June 27, 2004, 01:37 PM:
 
Another point of view, but we need to recognize that Vic isn't your average shooter.

Taking his example, 2000 X $800=$1600
handloaded =1000@$460 and 1000@$190=$650
(I justhope he bought all his loading equipment at yard sales, and his time is worth nothing)

Yeah, he has saved money, and that's about the only way it's going to happen. Volume. For the rest of us that might shoot well under a thousand rounds a year, or so, I'm still waiting to see a savings.

(in my best Bill Murray impersonation: thanks for the contribution, you knucklehead!)

Good hunting. LB
 

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Posted by Az-Hunter (Member # 17) on June 27, 2004, 02:49 PM:
 
Hey, I hear you on the "time" part, whats it worth? I don't know? I don't put it in the equation, because it's more enjoyment than work. I know the vast majority of hunters probably don't shoot the amount of ammunition as our members here do, and thats where I draw my conclusions from, guys like you, who I know.
If I was interested in getting involved in varmint hunting, and had purchased the likes of a Rem M7 in .223, I'd be hard pressed to realize much of a savings between reloading vs factory. There is some .223 stuff out there, for a few pennies less than I can make it, and it shoots too!!
It's when we tinker with 218 bees, 22 hornets, big 22 centerfires, the ever popular flamin' 25s, and the big stuff That Tim is feeding powder to, that reloading does offer a cost savings............if you shoot enough:)
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on June 27, 2004, 03:39 PM:
 
I know another factor that can knock the wheels off the economy angle. A number of guys load to the max and wind up with split necks and enlarged primer pockets with two or three cycles on the brass. Then again, I could buy R/P or Win brass for $25 in 243, but I paid a lot more for 100 premium Lapua.

A good point, that bears repeating. You have to enjoy working with the brass, or it can be pure drugery. As I said, only half in jest, it's good therapy, the ritual of doing everything exactly the same. And, it has to be that way, no deviation, or you got nothing.

Another thing, I personally, have no use for a progressive loader, which cuts down on the time, but, well, I guess I'm not interested in saving time, as a tradeoff on accuracy, since I use chamber type seating dies on almost all rifle cartridges. Not very fast.

Good hunting. LB
 

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Posted by Az-Hunter (Member # 17) on June 27, 2004, 06:07 PM:
 
You got that Leonard, brass is a pricey part of the equation, with powder running a close second! Most of us can remember the days of getting your powder in a paper sack, doled out at the local gunstore for a little bit of nothing.
Shame on you though for muddying the progressive waters:) I can assure you, the 400 rounds of .223 I bang out in an hour on my 550, shoot the same 1/2 inch groups that the slow hand rolled variety do,there is nothing sloppy about a progressive machine....it's just faster.
My bench has three reloading machines mounted on it, a Dillion 550 on each end, and an RCBS Rockchucker in the middle. If my bench was bigger, I'd mount the third 550 I have under the table, then I wouldn't have to change tool heads so often:)

[ June 27, 2004, 06:08 PM: Message edited by: Az-Hunter ]
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on June 27, 2004, 07:23 PM:
 
Let's see....three Dillons and a Rockchucker? Payback will take a little longer, won't it?
 

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Posted by Q-Wagoner (Member # 33) on June 27, 2004, 07:39 PM:
 
A guy can’t really factor in his time when reloading. It, like shooting, is recreational no one figures there time in on the range of field? Brass, well I figure brass is free after the first firing because you only pay for it once. Saving money is not the real issue for me anyway. I just like to reload, tinker and try and squeeze all the accuracy out of my ammo that I can get. Dillion makes the best progressives out there as far as I am concerned. I have and XL 650 on my bench as well as an RCBS Ammo Master and a Redding Truant press. The Ammo Master is rigged up as a single stage press for my 50 BMG. Across the street in a shed I have two RCBS Rock Chuckers set up and a third one under the bench. Can’t have to many presses. LOL All I reload out of the Dillion is .223 and it does a fine job. Several years ago when I was shooting the hell out of my .17 Remington’s I had it set up for them. I never got a 17 adaptor for the machine (don’t know if they even made one?) so I just powdered them by hand. With such a small hole to trickle the powder down I didn’t trust the automatic discharge anyway.

Good hunting.

Q,
 

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Posted by Jim B (Member # 343) on June 27, 2004, 07:43 PM:
 
The problem I have is sort of illustrated by AZ-Hunter. He said that he shoots 3 to 5 thousand every month with the savings per month to exceed the amount of cost of a reloader.

I on the other hand will not shoot 500 a year so the reason to handload MUST be some reason OTHER than a financial benefit. I have to have a compelling motive to spend money that I can otherwise spend on other pursuits.

Jim
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on June 27, 2004, 08:51 PM:
 
Look at it this way, Jim. Exactly how may factory choices are avaiable to you? Maybe two or three bullet weights from a half a dozen manufacturers. If your gun doesn't like what's out there, you are out of luck.

When you figure the dozens of different powders available, and the wide selection of bullets, and the ability of combining various primers with different brass, the choices are almost unlimited.

You not only have .224" 55 grain bullets, but in just about any configuration you could want, Hollow points, spitzers, spire points, boat tails, partitions, solid copper....the list goes on.

I happen to favor a 165/168 grain bullet in my 300 Mag. Can you think of any factory that offers that weight, offhand?

So, that's what it's all about; the freedom to choose what's best, and what fills your specific need(s).

Good hunting. LB
 

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Posted by DAA (Member # 11) on June 28, 2004, 05:38 AM:
 
On the money saving part... I started handloading when I bought my first centerfire and my Dad then gave me a press and dies for my 13th birthday. He also gave me a big coffee can full of reclaimed 4831. No doubt, I was saving money then! And did for probably the first ten years or more of my handloading.

But, these days, I've spent so much money on specialty handloading equipment ($200+ die sets, $250 powder dumps, $250 presses, $200 neck turning setups, $100 primer tools and on and on...), and components out the wazoo (look for my house on the moon, if a fire ever breaks out). I just don't see any way to save any money on it anymore. Not even shooting thousands of rounds a year. Which, I'm down to only 2-3 thousand a year - and now it's spread out over many rifles, where it used to be many more rounds, spread over only a few rifles.

And then, there's this - I figure it's an "enabling" situation. If I were just buying ammo over the counter, I probably would not shoot as much. The fact that I like to handload, leads me to shooting more, and I'm positive I end up spending more, even if the cost per shot is a lot less.

There's just no way I'm saving any money, compared to the guy shooting the same amount, buying wallyworld ammo.

- DAA
 

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Posted by Greenside (Member # 10) on June 28, 2004, 06:22 AM:
 
One of the main reason's my next gun is going to be a 22-250 AI, is the free brass issue. I'm sure I could come up with a couple of hundred new brass in my reloading room and a couple of coffee cans of once or twice fired. Is there any reason why I should'nt be fireforming once fired brass?

Dennis
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on June 28, 2004, 09:10 AM:
 
Dennis, that's something only you can decide. If you have that many with the same lot number, that would be a large plus.

But, the economy of using the Ackley is in the durability of your brass. The shoulder design limits stretch to the point where you (probably) won't have to ever "trim to length". A dozen reloads, or more is very possible and the only major source of attrition is loss in the field.

So, that almost fits your ideal of free brass. Some might dispute this, but I'll throw it in anyway. By the time your original brass is getting tired, say 200 pieces, the accuracy is starting to degrade. Exactly how much is acceptable to you before a rebarrel job is indicated? What I'm saying is that if you are even mildly conservative, 200 cases could last the life of the barrel.

Good hunting. LB
 

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Posted by Jack Roberts (Member # 13) on June 28, 2004, 07:26 PM:
 
Unless you are loading hot enough to stretch primer pockets(a not unusual thing) 50 cases will probably wear out a barrel.

If I get 500 rounds out of my fast twist 22-250AI, I will be a happy camper. After 150, it is not looking real promising through the borescope.

Jack
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on June 28, 2004, 07:45 PM:
 
Jack, what powder and amount and bullet are you running in that gun? Also, are you including fireforming in your total?

Good hunting. LB
 

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Posted by Jack Roberts (Member # 13) on June 28, 2004, 10:38 PM:
 
That is including all fireforming loads. The Sierra 77 works in this barrel. VV165 looks good, good accuracy and small extreme spreads at about the 39gr level.

Jack
 

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Posted by Greenside (Member # 10) on June 29, 2004, 05:17 AM:
 
Wow, I might have to reconsider that 250AI! I was thinking I'd be able to get 2,3 or 4 times the number of rounds through the barrel, than what Jack is talking. A good barrel and smith will probably run me $500.00. Shooting that gun is going to cost me $1.00 per round on barrel wear?
Reloading will really be the cheap part of that equation.

Dennis
 

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Posted by DAA (Member # 11) on June 29, 2004, 09:33 AM:
 
Jack is talking about a fast twist .22-250AI. If you're planning a 14, or a 12, to shoot traditional 55 gr. bullets, you'll get a couple thousand rounds, easy.

- DAA
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on June 29, 2004, 10:29 AM:
 
Yeah, I agree with that. I see no reason why a barrel chambered for a 22-250AI should get any less useful accuracy than a 220 Swift, and people aren't afraid of that one, loaded with only minor restraint. If you are looking for a hot twenty-two centerfire, look no further.

There are a lot of ways to go, but generally speaking, a fast twist Ackley or 22/243 with long heavy bullets, serves a different purpose than your normal predator hunting. Also, you probably wouldn't like the (close in) performance of those specialized bullets. That means, if your intent is predators, you will use it for long range spotting and sniping at stationary animals where you can dial in the correct elevation, etc.

Most of my coyotes won't allow that, and I mostly decline shots over 500 yards, anyway. A conventional chamber with a moderate leade, and twist is perfectly capable of dumping 500 yard coyotes.

We don't know Jack's application, but I suspect it is something a little more exotic than as an all purpose coyote rig?

UT, I know your style and wouldn't hesitate to recommend the 22-250 AI as a worthy replacement, if you are now using a standard 22-250 or 220 Swift. I'm thinking it should get the same amount of barrel life, but it is dependant on how hot you load it. Don't forget, the pressure signs are a lot more subtle in the Ackley design.

Good hunting. LB
 

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Posted by Tackdriver (Member # 203) on July 22, 2004, 05:50 PM:
 
I cant remember the last time I bought a box of factory CF rifle ammo.

Last year I bought one box of 45 ACP and a couple boxes of 12 gauge ammo, and these were dire need "emergency" purchases, and I wished like hell I had my "own stuff" during the competitions that followed.

There is no factory ammo for some of my rifles, and little selection for others.

And I think that a lot of folks that have a "quasi-wildcat" should handload. And there are more of these than you would beleive. Rounds for which there may be only one or two variations of factory ammo.

17 Remington pops to mind, only one or two factory selections there.
 

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Posted by CougerBait (Member # 149) on July 26, 2004, 09:52 AM:
 
I have found that I save alot of money reloading. But that is off set by the fact that I do alot more shooting than I used to. So I end up spending more just for the fact I shoot 3 times the ammount that I used to. Just relaoding for a couple of guns like the 44 mag and you will save in the long run. As far as the 44 mag goes, I more than likely shoot 1000 rounds alone.

When it comes to my .223, I have yet to find a factory load that even comes close to my handload. I probaly don't save any money on the .223 because the factory stuff is so cheap. But the hand loads I can get .35 and the closest factory I ever got was .65. The coyote dosen't know the differance. But my confidence level is the highest. I know if I miss it was all ME!

They say don't do it but I pick up alot of once fired brass. So the cost on some of my Brass is 0.00. I have yet to buy any 40 S&W or 30-30 brass. I inspect all the brass that I pick up. Most of the time up in the hills you will find a boat load of factory brass.

All in all it has made me a better shooter. It is one jump that I would do again in a heart beat.

One other thing that I have noticed about factory shooter vs. hand loaders, most hand loader are better shots for the fact they do way more shooting and alot more confident in there fire arms.

Just my 2.50
 

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Posted by bejaar (Member # 366) on July 26, 2004, 07:19 PM:
 
I don't reload (yet) and agree with GClock's statement for not learning how to reload. I have a friend that does reload and he knows the ins and out of each rifle he owns.

My friend recently showed me how to develop a custom load for my Savage 223 caliber rifle and it now shoots groups under.40 moa consistently.

I do find that the craft of reloading interesting and for a newbie like me sometimes confusing. I have to say that persons that reload sure know how to maximize the performance of their rifles.

By the way, I going to join the world of reloading as of next week and will be loading about 150-200 rounds for my rifle.
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on July 26, 2004, 09:36 PM:
 
Welcome to the New Huntmasters, bejaar. Glad to have you on board. I notice that you are practically a neighbor.

Good hunting. LB
 

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Posted by bejaar (Member # 366) on July 26, 2004, 10:05 PM:
 
Hi Leonard,

We live a few miles apart. I also patrol in your area. I am a deputy sheriff and usually patrol the San Antonio Heights and Mt. Baldy areas. At night, I sometimes see a pack of coyotes roaming the mountain roads and the residential areas.

A few weeks ago a fellow deputy saw a mountain lion on Mt. Baldy road just south of the first tunnel.

With the fires we had last year, I have seen a lot more wildlife roaming the residential areas for food.
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on July 27, 2004, 04:06 PM:
 
Yeah, tell me about it! I've had coyotes in the backyard, and it's enclosed by a six foot block wall. You know they darted a lion at Montclair Plaza, a few years ago.

IF you are SB, maybe you know Ron Peat? His beat is Rancho, lives up high, in Alta Loma and has a few horses. I work with him, but he's been a Reserve Deputy on weekends for many years.

Good hunting. LB
 

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Posted by bejaar (Member # 366) on July 27, 2004, 06:41 PM:
 
I am a SB deputy and the name Ron Peat does sound familiar. I would probably recognize him if I saw him. I did work in RC for about two years(2000-02) and was primarily assigned to training rookies for patrol.

In regards to coyotes, these animals are smart and amazing. In Chino Hills, we had at least 10 small dogs(7-15 lbs)taken from their backyards by coyotes. A majority of the fences were at least six feet high and it did not stop them.

Hope we can meet in the future or I will just pull you over with my lights and siren blazing.
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on July 27, 2004, 08:33 PM:
 

quote:

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or I will just pull you over with my lights and siren blazing

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