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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on December 12, 2004, 03:37 PM:
what sort of procedure do you go about, in mounting and leveling a scope?
I seem to be caught between getting the scope crosshairs level and perpendicular, and mounting the rifle blind. In other words, I always want to cant the rifle slightly, and when I open my eyes, the crosshair is not level, and I have to do some shifting to get them thataways.
Actually, I am very aware that this is important, the longer the range, but I try to attain a happy medium between level and a slight cant; for the closer range snap shooting.......if you follow my meaning?
What do you do?
Good hunting. LB
edit: I have a feeling I'm not explaining this adequately.
[ December 12, 2004, 03:38 PM: Message edited by: Leonard ]
Posted by Tim Behle (Member # 209) on December 12, 2004, 05:13 PM:
I set the rifle in a solid rest, and put a level on it to get it perfectly square.
I then take my bucket truck and set it up at 300 yards with 20' of rope. One end tied to the bucket, the other to a concrete block. I run up the boom and use it as a big plumb bob.
I then set the crosshairs up so the follow the rope exactly. But before I tighten everything down, I run the vertical turret from one end to the other. Just to be sure that If the X is on the rope at the bottom of the scope's range, it is still on the rope at the top of it's range.
Posted by brad h (Member # 57) on December 12, 2004, 05:22 PM:
I think I know what you mean. I try to find the happy medium as well.
I pick it up and look through several times in an attempt to base a decision on multiple quick looks. I'll finally tighten it down at what appears true to me. After that it's a matter of testing the zero at random distances.
I wouldn't getting a second opinion on this either. I've looked scopes that I thought were cocked way off, only to have the owner/user tell me the scope was perfectly set to them. They rarely missed at any distance as well.
Brad
Posted by DAA (Member # 11) on December 12, 2004, 05:32 PM:
I set all mine up as close to perfectly level as I'm capable of getting them. Using a smaller version of the system Tim uses ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
.
For close range work (called coyotes), a slightly canted scope wont make ANY difference. Only for long range work will the cant start to show up. Coyotes are relatively big targets. And the effects of cant are fairly subtle, and don't start showing up noticeably until the range gets longer than most ever shoot coyotes at. And, if you don't have the rifle level come shooting time, the perfectly leveled scope isn't doing much good.
My point being... For most guys and the vast majority of shooting situations they will encounter while coyote hunting, it's most important that they are COMFORTABLE with the setup. A couple degrees of cant, either way (either built into the scope mount, or induced by the rifle not being level in the field), ain't going to matter. If you are more comfortable canting your scope slightly, so that it "looks straight" when you shoulder (and cant) the rifle, no problem. If you are more comfortable having the scope perfectly leveled, and looking a bit crooked when the rifle is shouldered, again, no problem.
The way I'm wired though, I try and get all mine perfect just on GP. For the rifles I use on long range colony varmints, I also have bubble levels mounted, to make sure the rifle is level in the field. Would never put a level on a calling rig though.
- DAA
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on December 12, 2004, 05:49 PM:
Yeah, okay. You guys understand what I'm talking about. I don't worry about the long range rigs, I make then as straight up as I can, and mostly shoot from a rest where the rifle sitsperfectly level.
I am today mounting a new scope, and it's going to be a day stand rig, so I like it to come up natural, according to the way I'm built and the automatic way it comes up. The way I shoulder it, perfectly level crosshairs wind up being slightly canted, and of course, I tweak my position to make them level, etc. I really feel better when I mount a scope so that the crosshair look level, when hastily mounted for an offhand shot. But, I feel a little inferior for doing it, even if I know damned well that the rifle will probably never be fired at even moderate ranges. I'm mostly anal, but in this situation, I think it's counterproductive. lol
Good hunting. LB
Posted by GUTPILE (Member # 448) on December 12, 2004, 06:05 PM:
I put on my scope, get the eye relief, put down my bipod and look at a squared post or something that is as close as possible to being flat sided and level. I get pretty darn close. Then after that I take it to the gun shop because I'm pissed and have him charge me $2.50 to do it right, including boresighting.
Posted by Jack Roberts (Member # 13) on December 12, 2004, 09:35 PM:
DAA pretty much nailed it.
I know Olympic medalists who cant to 30 degrees or better, and adjust their scopes or iron sights accordingly.
Make the rifle and sights fit you. The days of you having to fit the rifle are long past.
Jack
Posted by RayG (Member # 9) on December 15, 2004, 11:42 AM:
Leonard, long time me no visit here!
I use a gun vise, first level the rifle (using small level and 6" rule across socpe base), and then parallel the scope with same rule and level across the turret with cap removed. Works for me.
However, for your needs, mounting the scope in a canted postition really is not a big deal as long as you use sighting distance a bit beyond what you might normally shoot. With your favorite caliber you can probably get away with 3to5 deg off if you use a 150-200 yd sight in distance. Jim Struble mounted his 243 canted (way above 5 deg but he was comfortable with that). If you sight in at 100, you may find your 200 yard hits considerably off center with continuing seperation between line of sight and point of impact.
Further, when the scope is canted, to get vertical elevation on the target you will need vertical and horizontal corrections at the turrets.
Shoot straight, count many coup.
Ray
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on December 15, 2004, 12:14 PM:
Yeah, Ray. Where have you been?
Since what you do and what I do, and what almost all CSVCA people do, is maintain a clear distinction between day and night hunting and the guns used while making stands in the daytime, from the ground.
My night hunting guns are all level, windage and elevation is true and vertical.
I'm talking about those guns suitable for day stands, in mixed cover, where I may have to mount and shoot instinctually. I always have a slight tilt to those light fast handling guns, but I have had others pick up my rifle, look through the scope and tell me what I already know....the crosshairs are off! Makes me want to apologize for something, being sloppy(?) but it's deliberate. That's all I'm saying.
Hey, are they planning a Struble hunt, this year?
Good hunting. LB
Posted by RayG (Member # 9) on December 16, 2004, 11:13 AM:
Leonard,
I have been too darn busy working on the house and hunting to get on line much.
The hunt is scheduled for 8-9 January. Check in is going to be north of Kramer Jct somewhere. No more detail than that as yet. National is again putting on the spread and we expect it will be at least as good as the last two.
Ray
Posted by Bud/OR (Member # 450) on December 28, 2004, 10:57 AM:
Hey Leonard,
I do believe that Ray g. is right on the money and...You are not 'anal'. Anal is when you are compelled to lap your rings to perfection to eliminate any scope tweak. Only then does the crosshair leveling begin. Brownell's and Midway have the lap/alignment tools if you're interested.
I tried Cabelas' Reticle Leveler and didn't like it. I went back to the method I've used forever. I start out, in my back yard, setting up a large piece of cardboard in a target stand, at the same level as my gun which is on a portable bench, twenty-five yards away. I draw a perfectly level line across The cardboard .At the center of the line I stick a black price label, the kind you get at stationary supply stores. Twenty-five yards from the target I level and clamp the gun in a gun vise while eyeballing through the barrel at the price dot. I use a Tipton vise. Like Ray G, I level across the ring bottoms, then square/level the crosshairs close(eyeball) with the top rings barely snug. I then rotate the scope in the perfectly level gun/mounts until the horizontal hair lines up with the perfectly level line on the cardboard.
At this point I tighten the locktighted ring screws. I Adjust the verticle hair until it splits the price lable then check through the barrel again to make sure center of dot is center of crosshair. I'll bet you a quarter that if you shoot a group at this point, at a hundred yards it will be very nearly center and very nearly between two and three inches high(with anything over 3000 fps.).
With me it's a confidence thing. I'm sure I cant the gun on close range fast shots. I'm also sure I eye-ball level the gun on slow long shots. As Ray, and others said, 'It doesn't matter at close range'. But at long range I'm not going to have any 'high to the right' shots because I screwed up the center of barrel/center of crosshair relationship. It's a confidence thing.
Now you know what 'anal' is.
Bud
[ December 28, 2004, 11:02 AM: Message edited by: Bud/OR ]
Posted by Jack Roberts (Member # 13) on December 28, 2004, 10:28 PM:
No way am I touching this!!!!!!!!
Jack
Posted by Greenside (Member # 10) on December 29, 2004, 07:18 AM:
Leonard, It really doesn't matter if you mount the scope with a cant. When you sight in for zero you will correct the cant. The only factor is that you will not be able to use the windage and elevation turrents when shooting in the field. You'll have to aim high,low, left or right to compensate for windage and elevation.
Here's an interesting read on cant.
http://www.riflescopelevel.com/cant_errors.html
To be honest, I'm alot more anal when it comes to eye relief and field of view. I'm sure that costs people more coyotes than minor canting.
Dennis
[ December 29, 2004, 09:09 AM: Message edited by: Greenside ]
Posted by Az-Hunter (Member # 17) on December 29, 2004, 06:24 PM:
My opinion is worth it's weight in gold.....absolutely nothing, but I'll throw in my .02 cents worth anyway:)
If your rifle "fits" you, and you still have a tendency to cant the scope, I think it's worth your time to relearn how to properly mount the rifle. If you adjust the scope correctly, with horizontal and verticle adjustments square with the world as they should be, its no big deal to make the small adjustment to hold it square. After a short while, you'll be shouldering the rifle correctly, and the crosshairs will be square, and your shooting will be straight.
In the big scheme of things, yes, it's a small matter at practical ranges, but why not learn to mount and shoot your rifle correctly? By the way, for the princely sum of 17 bucks, you can buy the "scope leveler"...handy device, works like a charm.
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