The New Huntmastersbbs!: handloading for dummies

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on April 22, 2012, 02:44 PM:

Visiting a different board I noticed many posts by people asking for favorite loads. Now, in special circumstances, I can understand doing so, but these are guys that apparently never opened a book in their lives. Why in hell would somebody take a stranger's recommendation and load up a hundred rounds without some sort of work up? Maybe there should be a test before selling these guys components?

Also, they don't seem to know what they are doing but are very quick to blame the brass, bullets, dies and even the press, if not the damned shell holder for their problems instead of stupidity/ignorance.

Good hunting. LB

Posted by TA17Rem (Member # 794) on April 22, 2012, 02:59 PM:

Is'nt that something Leonard.
I used to tell those guys to go out and get a reloading manual, then a Mod. would send me a PM and tell me to be nice..LOL

On one board the big craze was the primer flowing back into the fireing pin hole which happens with alot of guns which is no big deal in most cases as the hole is just a little sloppy but still in spec. and dosen't hurt as far as accuracy goes.. But there are also other things that can cause this problem like too hot of a load or soft primer cup material, weak fireing pin spring and so on..
The big cure for the so called problem was to get the fireing pin hole rebushed with a tighter tolerence. And one gun-smith was always recomended to do the job... I'd be willing to bet that guy did over 100 bushings a year and 90% of them didn't need replaceing... LOL

Posted by Prune Picker (Member # 4107) on April 22, 2012, 03:47 PM:

A little inside humor guys ? Leonard , i know a guy who teaches fireams safety for the NRA . He has called me several times in recent yrs , asking for a "good load" for a new firearm .
I once asked him if he had ever looked inside a reloading manual (as a joke} his reply was "don't own one and ain't got the time". yeah i know he is just a dumbassed Okie but ...

Posted by Kokopelli (Member # 633) on April 22, 2012, 03:48 PM:

I don't claim to know a lot about hand-loading, but I have to agree with TA. I was always led to believe that step one was to get a manual and step two was to cross reference it with another manual.
And isn't the whole idea of hand-loading to develop a custom load for YOUR particular bang-stick?? [Confused]

Posted by jimanaz (Member # 3689) on April 22, 2012, 04:47 PM:

Buy 'em books, send 'em to school, they learn to use a computer, and the rest was wasted.

Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on April 22, 2012, 05:33 PM:

They are always blaming a gazillion things on poor quality brass, contaminated powder, and especially "bad" dies. You would think reloading equipment is produced part time in somebody's garage?

There seems to be an avalanche of newbies getting into handloading without a care in the world and zero attention span. This is not a hobby for people that can't think. I see a lot of it and it bugs me.

Good hunting. LBee

Posted by jimanaz (Member # 3689) on April 22, 2012, 06:28 PM:

Well c'mon, if so many folks in the world are able to reload successfully but they can't, there has to be a fly in the ointment. If they bought the recommended equipment and components, surely there HAS to be something wrong with the aforementioned items.

When I was 16 I got a job in a machine shop. When I decided I wanted to start loading my own ammo it was an easy transition because of that background. Things were second nature to me and I figured everyone else. Not the case. Did you know that there are people out there who only get an accurate measurement with quality calipers when they get lucky? There are! And if there wasn't a dial....ohhhhh, God help them.

In today's world of electronics, auto repair shops, and paying someone else to do every little thing, is it any wonder that craftsmanship is dying? And it compounds itself. Hell, there's young men out there who can't even change their own oil, but they think they can build ammo. Things like technique and consistancy are hard to learn from the internet, or even a manual for that matter.

That bolt knob make over you did a while back would be akin to launching a rocket to a slew of folks. These are the times we live in. I can't do nearly all the handy things my father could. Mostly because he had to learn to do them out of necessity and I didn't.

Handloading is one of those things for some people that looks easy, but really isn't.

Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on April 22, 2012, 06:59 PM:

No, I would not describe handloading as "easy". It is far from easy and it requires attention to detail that a lot of people do not possess. A surprising number of people.

But, it can be an "on demand" hobby and you can get off the elevator at any floor. Very basic reloading can carry one a very long way and you should never encounter a problem as long as you keep it simple and never deviate from safe procedures.

To me, the problem is that these guys cherry pick information and believe me, some of these Internet cowboys can dish out bad advice and I'll be damned if the newbie doesn't seem to have a sixth sense for following bad advice from other dumb shits.

Oh yeah, my tactical shifter is real cool and I hardly notice it, which (I guess) is a success? Did I need it? Well.....now, I want a GAP and a TRG42 and $4,000 optics. You get it.

Good hunting. El Bee

Posted by TA17Rem (Member # 794) on April 22, 2012, 08:16 PM:

When I started reloading I started with the speer reloading manual that came with the press and other stuff. Pretty much everything was right there about how to reload and be safe at it along with other tips..Later on I picked up a Hornady manual which covered a few more things that are involved in reloading and then moved on to a Lyman manual and on and on it went.. I must have 40-60 books just on reloading for all sorts of hunting or shooting comp. and from varmint to big-game and 17 cal. up to the big bores, 28ga.- 10ga. shotgun shells..
From reading all those books I learned that alot of reloading problems canbe prevented by just takeing the time to read one or two of the manuals, some even have a trouble shooting guide as well as recomended loads for accuracy or highest vel. with decent accuracy.
Just seen on another forum a guy asked about useing decoys dogs and such and Jim was nice enough to refer the guy to the dog section which was just a few forums down.. How hard is that to see???? LOL

Posted by Aznative (Member # 506) on April 23, 2012, 07:23 AM:

Talking about newbie reloaders brings back some old memories. My first reloader was a lee loader. It didn't take long for me to buy a RCBS junior press and a powder thrower. Today, I can spend more money on just the attachments/adapters and such than some people spend on a lee reloading kit. Being semi retired and not working at the present time sure makes it tough to take on a new caliber.

As far as manuals, I have at least a dozen. I've purchased three lyman manuals over the years. I really like a lot of the load information that is available online today.

Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on April 23, 2012, 08:53 AM:

That was my first experience with reloading, a Lee Loader. It was in 1968 and a year/season later I bought me a "real" press. Funny thing is, I don't remember what happened to it? It was for 270W and I sold the gun sometime in the early seventies, maybe I included it in the sale?

Nobody uses a Lee Loader anymore, but you know, if I was up in the Yukon, in a shack, I just might get by with something like that. It's basic, but it works.

Good hunting. LB

Posted by Kokopelli (Member # 633) on April 23, 2012, 09:14 AM:

"nobody uses a Lee Loader anymore........."

Uh.....Wrong, Oh Great One. I have several & use them to reload my .38 & .41 Mag. handgun ammo.
Now, someone is probably saying `buy a real set-up & you can load a lot more, a lot faster.`
True & true. However; I find that if I have a brick of .22 I go out and tend to make noise & kick dirt on targets. On the other hand, if I have a box of 50 .38 Special that took some effort to load, I tend to put a little more effort into shooting form & hitting what I'm shooting at. I don't want to waste the ammo that took a while to make, so I end up getting in a quality practice session which, hopefully leads to quality results.
Works for me...........YMMV.

Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on April 23, 2012, 09:28 AM:

My error, "Oh humble subject". I have not noticed one for sale, no advertisement and yours is the first time I have heard of somebody, anybody using a Lee Loader in many years. SO, EXCUSE ME!

But, I think your application is perfectly sound. For rifle, less so, but for those cartridges, I think you are on solid ground. I think? for rifle, they only neck size, and especially in 270, they grow, and need neck trimming and that was the rub. For me.

Good hunting. LB

Posted by Kokopelli (Member # 633) on April 23, 2012, 11:09 AM:

I just Googled `lee loader` and it seems that they are still around. As far as rifle rounds go, I think that the Lee Loader's strong suit is probably the country boy who loads up a box of 20 thurty-thurty or aught-six and fully expects at least a dozen deer out of that there box. Kind of like a Carhartt Jacket or a Stormy Kromer; nothing fancy.......just solid long lasting utility that works.

Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on April 23, 2012, 11:34 AM:

I'm not arguing. Yes it works. But at a very basic level and for you country boys, good enough.

I didn't think anybody would go so far to prove me wrong by googling Lee Loader, but that's the price I have to pay for hosting these discussion forums. You get a gold star for investigative reporting. Actually, I am relieved to know the product is still around, somewhere.

Good hunting. LB

edit: and I also googled lee loader and you are correct, it is still around and I didn't know?

[ April 23, 2012, 11:39 AM: Message edited by: Leonard ]

Posted by Az-Hunter (Member # 17) on April 23, 2012, 12:29 PM:

Ahhh, the Lee loader; fond memories of wacking sizing dies and seating primers with a damned hammer! Seems crazy now, but I cranked out bunches of .45 Colt cartridges and 12 gauge shotgun shells as a teenager.
I was never more proud as the day I snagged a rusted piece of shit RCBS "Junior" press, thought I was in hog heaven, man, I could crank out 50-75 rounds in an hour if I hauled ass.
Now; I use a Dillon,and it's 400+ rounds an hour.....how times change?

Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on April 23, 2012, 02:13 PM:

Yes, times change, for some of us anyway. Me? I spend ALL NIGHT loading a hundred rounds and don't feel at all jealous of your 400MPH Dillon. (I thought I saw two of them in your shop?) Do you really shoot that much? I know I don't? If I shoot 400 rounds, total, from every rifle I own, I would be a little surprised?

pause....oh, I got it! You are burying all that ammo in the back yard for when "they" announce RATIONING. Am I right?

Maybe you could sell me one of those Dillons cheap? In Florida, really, where you gonna shoot?

Good hunting. LB

PS Yes, I completely agree about wielding the mighty Hammer of Thor against a defenseless little primer. And yes, I did have one go off on me, scared the crap out of me and truth be known, that was what caused me to seek alternatives.

Posted by Az-Hunter (Member # 17) on April 23, 2012, 02:45 PM:

Right you are Leonard! I have two Dillon machines, and an RCBS Rockchucker, only because Im lazy and hate to change dies and tool heads, so I can be set up for 3 different calibers without a fuss.
I am guilty of loading and hoarding some ammunition but mostly have factory stuff tucked away for the apocalypse. Believe it or not, I do shoot here in Florida. I am a member of a shooting range and as a bonus, my son has access to a hunting lease that has a large tract of open land where a small range is set up and I can shoot as long as deer season is not in progress.
When practicing, I can blow thru 4-500 rounds real quick during a range session so the Dillon presses still earn their keep.
I still load some of my rifle stuff on the single stage press, but it's sure nice to use the Dillon for high volumne stuff like .223, spend a couple hours, have a thousand in the can, and be done with it.

Posted by Cdog911 (Member # 7) on April 23, 2012, 02:47 PM:

For my limited knowledge about reloading and an even more limited budget, I recently bought a Lee kit with the breech loading press. So far, it seems to do well. I've decapped and resized about 400 brass. Their safety primer works well, I've got about 200 capped and ready to load. Sorted, and sized about 500 brass for future use when and if I need them. Plan to load about 200 at a time and replace rounds about 50 at a time as time allows.

I got a Sierra manual because that's the bullets I'm using right now, figured out to convert the powder measure accurately to .1 grn and now, if I can only find the time to get busy working up a load, I will. Have read the manual through and through, asked Q about 23,741 different questions, most of which I'm sure he thought were stupid, and have a starting point, if I can just match up free time with a wind-free day to test out the starting load.

The only thing I didn't like with the kit was the beam scale they included. Picked up a digital jeweler's scale. Also bought a digital caliper simply because I plum forgot how to read a verneer caliper.

Where can a guy buy free time?

Posted by TOM64 (Member # 561) on April 23, 2012, 05:33 PM:

"Where can a guy buy free time?"

It's available but very expensive...

Vic, which Dillon's do you have?

I've thought about a square deal for 9MM and 44's, then maybe a 550 for 223's but I hear so many talk about trimming brass and priming seperate, that I wonder if it'd be worth it.

Right now I prep all my brass when I get done shooting. Prime it and store it ready to load when I need it. All on a Rockchucker. Usually load 500 rounds at a time.

Posted by Az-Hunter (Member # 17) on April 23, 2012, 09:27 PM:

Tom; I have two 550s', great machines, keep one set up for .223, the other for pistol and revolver calibers. I don't prime seperate from the loading operation, everything gets done on the press. It probably isn't a concern, but Ive just never been one to keep primed cases in lose stock.
I'll trim and run thru a case vibrator to clean up, then into a sealed container until it's loading time. 500 rounds of .223, if you have components at hand and a bunch of primer tubes filled is a mere hour and change.

Posted by TA17Rem (Member # 794) on April 23, 2012, 10:04 PM:

So Vic are you resizeing the brass in another press before you reload them in the other set up?? Or do you have a pre-determined length you trim to prior to resizeing????

Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on April 23, 2012, 10:12 PM:

Hell, it's only 223. Who cares? That's the way I feel about AR's and 223's. That rifle gets all the crap that I tried in other guns and didn't like, for some reason? Seems to shoot everything to the same poa and about the same accuracy. Which is; mediocre. But, it's a genuine Colt, what am I offered?

Good hunting. LB

Posted by Kokopelli (Member # 633) on April 24, 2012, 04:10 AM:

"............it's a genuine Colt, what am I offered?"

I'll bid,
$100 cash money,
An antique wooden Circe call,
A lifetime membership to my archery range,
Plus, you'll get the satisfaction of knowing that you helped turn the life of a confirmed Mini-14 user around.
AND......just to sweeten the deal, if you'll autograph the stock I'll toss in my treasured Weems WildCall Pro-Staff hat.

When can I expect the U.P.S. guy to show up????

Posted by Az-Hunter (Member # 17) on April 24, 2012, 06:08 AM:

I trim all .223 brass to minimum case length, load and shoot until they start to creep past the maximum case length,then repeat or toss in the trash can.
Im not an obsessive reloader Tim, I try to keep all aspects simple and in perspective,and so far my method has served me well, with no rifle in the stable that won't shoot 1/2", so I must be doing something right?

Posted by TA17Rem (Member # 794) on April 24, 2012, 11:51 AM:

I was just asking how you do it. Not saying there is a right way or wrong way..
Does your brass stretch more when fired in a AR compared to a bolt gun or is it the same???

Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on April 24, 2012, 12:05 PM:

Tempting offer, koko. I will ponder.

What AZ says reminds me of my old partner, Pat. I always thought he was the best shot on game I ever saw, and he thought the same of me, if you can believe it?

But, the thing is, I was anal in my approach, cleaning, handloading, willing to do anything that would better my accuracy by fractions and he was an indifferent handloader but always shot tiny bug holes. I helped him win "Big Gun" one year with his gun, I shot first and told him I hit exactly where I held, 3 o'clock ¼" off dead center. He held dead center and won, so I sure as hell felt I deserved part of that belt buckle.

He was always blessed with perfect barrels and I had to nudge and massage mine to stay close....and I knew this because we routinely shot each other's rifles off the rack, at night. His double set trigger Mauser in 22-250 with that 6X24 Balvar was an impressive piece. He sold that rig to Rick Orelli (RIP) and I could have rung his chicken neck!

Good hunting. LB

Posted by Az-Hunter (Member # 17) on April 24, 2012, 12:47 PM:

Indifferent, might be a just label to my approach, I don't know? I just don't concern myself with minutia. I will look thru brass to check general condition, cracks,neck splits,ring lines around web of cases etc. Always try to label powder dump hopper with appropiate powder brand and number, those kinds of precautions, but thats about it.
In 43 years of reloading,Ive never once cleaned a primer pocket, reamed a flash hole,sorted bullets by weight or sorted cases by brand or weight or dribbled powder from a trickler. Ive never measured runout, or concentricty or measured how close or far from the lands a bullet sits. Ive neck sized a single case, everything I shoot goes thru a full length sizer die.
Man, after typing that, I can imagine the number of guys who wonder how I ever got a round to go bang and still shoot a postage stamp size group:)
I have friends that like to really get into it, and I'd never knock that level of interest and attention to detail, I just don't have it in me. I love to shoot, and I loved to shoot competitively, reloading allowed me to do that for 25 years without going broke. I always wanted to spend my time at the range practicing instead of tinkering with shit at the loading bench, that in the end, had little to no bearing on my performance or my firearms.

[ April 24, 2012, 01:19 PM: Message edited by: Az-Hunter ]

Posted by TOM64 (Member # 561) on April 24, 2012, 01:15 PM:

Tim, as far as I can tell, there is no difference in my Lapua cases fired from my LTR bolt gun or my LC, WW and RP cases fired from my AR's.

Now I use top end loads and heavy buffers in my AR's. I also have only used a Lee neck die on my LTR's Lapua cases and full length size the rest. They still grow about the same rate.

Posted by TA17Rem (Member # 794) on April 24, 2012, 01:43 PM:

Thanks Tom.. Do you have to trim them each time you reload???

Posted by TOM64 (Member # 561) on April 24, 2012, 02:10 PM:

No I trim them to 1.750" and it'll take 4 or 5 firings before they get close to 1.760" but I do trim em every time I prep em just to be consistant and it doesn't take but a few turns of the handle. I also clean my primer pockets cause I can't stand not to.

Posted by Cayotaytalker (Member # 1954) on April 24, 2012, 02:41 PM:

Tom64,have you ever shot any of your LC brass in a bolt rifle? I have 500 of them and my goal is to use them in by bolt rifle. I plan to load up some nosler 55 grain balllistic tip,60 grain Hornady V-Max,70 grain Berger VLD Target,80 grain Berger VLD Target.
I went with the LC brass just be cause it was the right price and I thought it would last be a long time.
I my self don't see way not. And yes I'm up to speed on knowing they can cause higher presure.

Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on April 24, 2012, 02:43 PM:

Vic, you are a little worse in your approach than Pat, same general attitude and skill set, he's a natural pointer. I need to work at it. Where we converged was at killing predators with damned few loses; average night 12-15 no misses, no loses. That's prime time, prime areas, but hardly ever took a low percentage shot so I never thought it was a big deal.

Those numbers are probably not possible under current conditions due to a number of factors. Oh, in Mexico it's possible, but that would be pretty risky. I blame Foxpro for the blanketing of coyote country with sound by rank amateurs. The old days were pretty special.

Good hunting. LB

[ April 24, 2012, 02:48 PM: Message edited by: Leonard ]

Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on April 24, 2012, 02:46 PM:

Cayotaytalker, if you can get all those bullets to group, that would be interesting. What twist is your barrel?

Good hunting. LB

Posted by TOM64 (Member # 561) on April 24, 2012, 04:55 PM:

Cayotaytalker, yes I have used LC brass in my LTR. In fact I was looking for a load for it and wondered about my 77gr SMK's I load for my AR's. The 1/9 twisted barrel shot them at 1/2" groups even jumping from 2.260".

I don't think the brass is any different sized than standard 223 Rem, the leade in the 5.56 NATO chamber is longer than the 223, which like Weatherby's chambers allows for the 62000psi to ease up a bit before jumping into the lands.

As for the VLD bullets, I hope you have at least a 1/8 twist to shoot them. Some 1/9's will shoot them and some won't. My LTR prefers 55gr NBT's so that's what it's gonna get fed, only in Lapua cases so I can distinguish them.

Posted by TA17Rem (Member # 794) on April 24, 2012, 05:32 PM:

In my DPMS I ran every weight from 55 gr. up to 77 gr. with a 1-9" and accuracy was good to great with all of them. Ammo used was Blackhills and Ultramax.. It was a good shooter but to bad it was lacking in other areas.. [Wink]

Posted by Cayotaytalker (Member # 1954) on April 26, 2012, 11:56 AM:

LB, my rifle is 1-9" and shoots very well lucky me. I have shot any where from 45gr USMC 200 round packs to 55gr Nosler and Wolf 55gr as well as 62gr wolf. My rifle likes it all I have shot out to 475 yards with the 55gr and 62 gr ammo.
It's not my goal to shoot 300 yard coyotes with a 223. But my rifle does shoot well out to 300 yards. Shooting 300 or more would just before my own self intrest or pesonal goals is all.
I do feal like my rifle will eat the 55gr,60gr up a live. And I'm ok with the Berger VLD Target. Now for the Berger VLD 80 gr yes I went over a bit of a cliff buying those.
LB, if you are any one ever want to help me out with tips ideas and so on I,m all ears.I went with the Lee press not RCBS just so you guys know.I have been picking up alittle gear here and there for around two years now and have not loaded a damn thing yet.
And hey thanks for opening up this new forum just for me. lol

Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on April 26, 2012, 01:14 PM:

It's good that you are getting into handloading. Understand, it's a bottomless pit, as you peel back the layers, you will find a lot more to consider. You never know it all. But, it is all beneficial, makes you a smarter shooter, more knowledgable.

For instance, there is some service match stuff I don't know beans about, never had any interest. I don't really care about targets in general. My application is toward hunting, punching paper and gongs ain't my bag, but if others enjoy it, that's fine.

Good hunting. LB

[ April 26, 2012, 01:15 PM: Message edited by: Leonard ]

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