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Posted by WhiteMtnCur (Member # 5) on March 26, 2014, 12:00 PM:
I’m at a crossroads with a gun project and I would appreciate some insight from this crowd. Forgive me for the back story, it’ll just put things into context.
I found a used .22-6mm Improved (40° shoulder) built on a blueprinted 700 long action for sale last year. Spec’d pretty close to how I like a coyote rifle (except for the 1:8 twist); Jewell HRV, Bansner stock, Zeiss scope and 500 rounds of fireforming ammo for $1850. Too good to be true, so I bought it thinking the barrel had to be shot out.
I got it and the 69gr Nosler fireforming loads averaged 3735fps and shot in the .6’s at 100. So I campaigned it last spring and killed coyotes with it.
The barrel is now throwing fliers after getting warm. I’m going to run the rest of the ammo down the tube to have 500 pieces of fireformed brass and send it in for a new barrel.
Therein lies the quandary. I want the standard high performance coyote rifle requirements: ultimate flat trajectory/MPBR, fast delivery, extreme terminal performance, maintain sight picture. All else is tangential.
So a 26” 1:14 twist for 55gr NBT’s over 4250fps seems like the right choice. Keep it fairly heavy and I should spot my hits.
I’m waffling on that decision because this rifle is a long action. All my other hot-rod .22’s are short actions, so there’s one reason to depart from the norm and take advantage of longer bullet capabilities.
I was looking at JLK’s 65gr bullets with a BC of .397, run the ballistics of it at 3900-4000fps and see it’s really impressive. I’ve got a .220 Swift Improved with 1:14, so the .22-6 is just a bit more horsepower than that. But with bigger bullets I can potentially stretch out the increased capabilities of this bigger case.
So I’d like some insight from this crowd. Would you recommend I stick with the old standard and push 55gr NBT’s towards 4300, or do you think there’s validity to a 65gr JLK at >3900fps? This is purely for spring coyote work, denning with dogs.
I did an internet search and was unable to find any reference to a velocity ceiling with JLK bullets. I also don’t know how they perform on coyotes?
The 64gr Berger pushed towards 4000fps seems rational. I’m familiar with its performance on coyotes at 3600fps. I remember reading Blaine Eddy had a 22-284 pushing this bullet to around 4000fps. So given shortcomings of the JLK venture, there’s a back-up bullet.
The second part of the question is best barrel twist? General consensus is to use 1:10 twist for the 65gr bullets. But that’s too fast for smaller bullets (limiting my options), and that fast also makes me wonder if barrel life will suffer worse than if I slowed down to a 1:11 or 1:12? Anyone comments on the best choice for pushing 64-65gr bullets as fast as possible in this chambering?
Lastly, is there a twist that will work for 55-65gr bullets and give me ultimate flexibility? Will a 1:12 or 1:11 still stabilize 55gr NBT’s?
Posted by knockemdown (Member # 3588) on March 26, 2014, 02:10 PM:
Interesting crossroads!
Here's my couple pennies.
You've got a BEAST of a cartridge, on a long action no less. Nice long neck to hold onto a nice, long bullet.
Make all of that available powder capacity and action length work for you by pushing a heavy (>65gr) bullet. IMHO, that massive horsepower is lost on a lighter projectile, not enough rubber to meet the road...
Stick with a 1:8 twist, although you could get by with a 1:9 if you stay <80gr bullets. Send your 'smith a fired case to set headspace off, and have him throat it appropriately to get the most from those sleek, heavy bullets!
Traveling down this road with a 22-243imp40, right now. Me & KJ schemed up a build to mess with. Mine is a 1:8" Brux, #4 @ 27". Got 60 cases fire formed and did two quick ladders with a 75Amax. H-1000 is netting mid 3600s with no pressure signs, and KJ is getting mid 3500s pushing 80amaxs with Retumbo in his Brux 1:8". Your 22-6Imp should easily reproduce these numbers, and at a lower pressure. Lower pressure translates to longer barrel life, so you could throttle back your loads and likely enjoy a few hundred extra rounds down the tube...
When you crunch the #s, @ 300yds, the heavies runnin' 36-700 aren't giving up much, if anything, to a 55gr @ 4250. Beyond that, the heavies pay dividends in both drop and drift.
I have a few hundred 75&80gr JLKs to mess with in my 22-243Imp. Emailed Swampy about his opinion on how they'd act on game, but he had nothing to share. So, I guess we're in uncharted territory, lol! KJ has spanked quite a few coyotes with the 80Amax, I'm sure he'll be along to brag them up!
If you'd like to try the 75 or 80 JLKs in your 22-6Imp, I'd be happy to send ya a couple of each...
Posted by 3 Toes (Member # 1327) on March 26, 2014, 03:27 PM:
I was shooting the Berger 62s out of my 22x47 Lapua at just over 3800 with a 12 twist and it was awesome. But in usual Berger style they quit the 62 so I bought a couple hundred of the 60 and the 64, but haven't shot them yet. Finishing up the last of the 62s. I'm leaning towards the 64s if they perform well. Regardless of what some of these guys will try to sell you, speed kills, and the flatter trajectory of the lighter bullet to 3 or 4 hundred is what's generally needed for what we do. It is a better system IMHO for most coyote killing. Things change past 400 and I know that, that's why I rarely step beyond.
Posted by WhiteMtnCur (Member # 5) on March 26, 2014, 04:33 PM:
3 Toes brought up a couple pertinent points. This rifle will do 98% of its work inside 400 yards. I’m pretty good to there, not past it. I don’t have interest in long VLD bullets, dialing scopes, or any of that long range stuff. MPBR is first priority and anything under 3800fps and I start to lose interest when it comes to working over the dogs.
So 65gr is the maximum bullet weight I’ll consider, and I’m only considering it because this case has a lot of powder capacity and the rifle has a long action. Couple that to a 65gr JLK at 3900fps and it is only 1” more drop at 400 than the 55gr NBT pushed at 4250.
If, big if, depending on individual barrel, I can get the 65gr JLK to 4000, it ballistically matches the 55gr NBT at 4250.
Maybe my ballistics program sucks and I’m off? But an accurate load [without pressure signs] pushing a 65gr JLK at 4000 would make the faster twist and the long action justified. That possibility is the only reason this rifle doesn’t already have a 1:14 on it.
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on March 26, 2014, 05:26 PM:
Already noted, Cal's rig using the 62Berger gets damned near the exact same velocity as my 22-243Midd, 3810fps. But I have not exhausted my supply. When they are gone, I will use the 64Berger, if I can get it?
Several years ago, I got some .257" 96.5 grain and .224" 65 grain from a friend of Dave Afflack, @ Starke bullets. I had heard he retired but not sure. If he could be persuaded, I bet he could turn out a 62 grain bullet that would duplicate the Berger?
When I was using that bullet until it was no longer available, he sent me some very nice 65 gr. Starke's that worked just as well, (and still does) as the Bergers. He even acted like it was not difficult, so maybe it isn't?
Just a thought.
Good hunting. El Bee
edit: PS the twist in the 22-250AI is 14" and the Middlested's is 1X12".
edit: actually, I like to keep my coyote work to around 400 yards, as well. For a few very good reasons.
[ March 26, 2014, 05:30 PM: Message edited by: Leonard ]
Posted by DAA (Member # 11) on March 26, 2014, 06:03 PM:
Since you are prioritizing on MPBR, which I wholeheartedly agree with for your stated application, I think you've already answered your own question.
MPBR is basically all about velocity, velocity and velocity.
The rig I've been using the last couple years is pushing those 55's at 4300 (w/ sub .5 MOA accuracy) and it's laser beam flat, plenty of steam at 400 (and still holding on fur!). It's a 6-284 with a 25" 13 twist. It's the most point and shoot take no prisoners deadly combo I have ever used on coyote. Mine is not too heavy, I do see most of my impacts through the scope.
Blaine brought that .22-284 of his over to my house and tried to give it to me right before he died. I didn't feel right taking it and made him take it with him. Have since regretted that... Last time I ever saw him, too.
- DAA
Posted by DAA (Member # 11) on March 26, 2014, 06:07 PM:
P.S... Clint is totally out of the bullet making business. I'm not sure where all of his dies ended up. I know Chan Nagel got his .17 stuff, but not sure about the rest.
I've got a couple shelves full of his bullets still though. Used to do testing for him on prototype stuff, have all kinds of short run odd balls. Weights and ogives he never went public with, some bonded core stuff he was experimenting with and some REALLY wild stuff that I never had a barrel to work with, like 120 gr. .224's etc.
I think I still have about 500 of his regular 60 gr. .224's.
- DAA
Posted by DAA (Member # 11) on March 26, 2014, 06:51 PM:
Two more things real quick before I forget... You asked specifically about twist for 65's. I have a .243AI and my 6-284 both with 13's and they both shoot 65 Vmax just fine. But a 12 would be good insurance if you want to make sure 65's will be no problem and you should be able to shoot any of the 70's in a 12 too. My 6AI was a 12 and it handled up to 75 Vmax just fine and actually was most accurate with the 80 gr. Sierra.
The other thing I wanted to mention... If you decide to build it for light bullets, make sure your 'smith actually understands that and is both willing and able to throat accordingly. Lots of them do poorly in that area.
The last reamer I ordered from Dave Kiff was a .243AI that I wanted short throated with zero freebore. Spoke to him at length about it. Sent him a couple dummy rounds, the whole nine yards. Reamer came back with about .050 freebore and throated WAY TOO FUCKING long for short bullets.
Okay fine... Talked to the 'smith about it he assured me he had another reamer, it was going to be how I wanted it, blah-blah-blah. Rifle came back 9 months later. Throat was WAY TOO FUCKING long. Not even close to what I had gone to such great pains to try and communicate.
I have since had Greg Tannel do all my work. He does throating and necking as separate operations and KNOWS both WHAT I WANT and WHAT HE IS DOING. The guy speaks my language. My chambers come back from him precisely throated to have the dummy rounds I send him just kissing the lands with exactly the amount of freebore requested (which is usually zero, for me).
Anyway... It's something I have seen get screwed up more often than not on builds like this. People, 'smiths included, hear something like .22/6mm and they just automatically think long bullets and chamber accordingly. If they only have one .22/6mm reamer and it's got the neck and throat built into it as most do, you can bet your ass it's throated for 80's. Far from ideal if you are building for 55's or 65's.
- DAA
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on March 26, 2014, 08:49 PM:
Dave, what you are describing is the only negative I have with my 22/243Middlested. Too much freeborn to suit me. But, it's accurate enough the way it is, with the 62gr and more jump than I like.
I have a switch barrel for it chambered in 22-250Ackley that I never screwed on. I hope, when I do, that it's not the same way.
Good hunting. El Bee
Posted by knockemdown (Member # 3588) on March 27, 2014, 05:41 AM:
Not trying to undermine Cal's expertise in killing shit, that ain't gonna happen.
But, humor me & crunch the #s from a .22-6mm Imp.
Take an 80gr JLK (G1 bc of .510) @ 3600 fps
Take a 64gr Berger(G1 bc of .294) @ 3900 fps
@ 300yds, both heavy & light shoot equally flat. However, the 80 JLK allows 3" LESS wind drift in a 10ph full value crosswind
@400yds, the 80 JLK shoots 1" FLATTER, and now allows over 6" LESS wind drift in that same full value wind.
Also, @400 yds, the 80 JLK will retain over 1400 ft/lbs of energy. Whereas, the lighter 64Berger has bled off down to only 900ft/lbs.
Both should still be plenty to drop a coyote like a sack o' taters, but it does kinda knock the edge off the "speed kills" argument. Speed certainly does kill, especially when you've got a friggin' HUGE case that can push a heavy bullet fast enough to matter!!!
Same cartridge, contrasting heavy & light bullets.
Heavy bullet is almost 50% better in the wind, and retains over 30% more energy @ 400yds.
Just looking at those two comparisons alone, provides a pretty strong case for the heavies, in my opinion...
[ March 27, 2014, 05:45 AM: Message edited by: knockemdown ]
Posted by Kelly Jackson (Member # 977) on March 27, 2014, 05:46 AM:
High velocity and High BC. I am a fan.
Have a 243AI with a 12 twist barrel that shoots 55gr NBT at 4150 MV.
Also a 22-243AI 8 twist that shoots 80gr AMAX at 3530.
They both kill well. The 55’s out of the 234AI has a bullet failure from time to time, but not as you might expect.
On about 1 out of every 15 coyotes, on behind the shoulder shots, that bullet will pass clean thru with little to no expansion out of that rifle.
You can find the coyote, but you lose some time looking. Not good.
So far with the 22-23AI and the 80’s there are no issues.
My buddy John from Carlsbad is coming in this weekend to pick up his new 22-243AI. We will be shooting steel and killing a few coyotes all weekend.
Just for shits and giggles, I think I will run both my rifles side by side at 400 yards on steel. I figure the kill shot on a coyote facing you straight on is around 4 ½”.
The wind is going to be 15-25, normal contest conditions around here. I know this really doesn’t prove anything with all the variables, but
will report back with how this works out for me.
On another note, I really think there are too many variables in bullets and barrel twist/barrel throat condition/where the coyotes is hit to really nail down what’s what.
A bullet/twist that performs well on coyotes in one rifle may not be the ticket in another…A buddy of mine and I were shooting 9.25 twist straight 243’s with 55gr NBT’s a few years back. I was having good results, I watched him splash 3 coyotes in a row with his….
Of late I have been carrying a 204AI shooting 50gr Berger’s at 3600 MV (cause I got 600 of them). Was shooting a 38gr Unmussig at 4111 MV when I was selling the hides.
Both kill well out of the 9 twist Pac Nor barrel. Others I have talked to shooting straight 204’s were having a hard time keeping 40gr Berger’s inside a coyote. 40gr Berger’s in my rig did not give the desired penetration. I expect due to the 9 twist verses a 12 twist others are shooting.
Have shot 20 plus coyotes with the 50gr Berger out of this rig and have only had one exit so far. Go figure.
Stay after them
Kelly
edit to add - looks like Fred and were posting at the same time. This is a hell of a good dicussion and I hope to learn something.
[ March 27, 2014, 06:02 AM: Message edited by: Kelly Jackson ]
Posted by DanS (Member # 316) on March 27, 2014, 06:14 AM:
Hey Cal, Is there much difference between your 22x47 Lapua and a 22-250 AI?
Posted by DAA (Member # 11) on March 27, 2014, 06:19 AM:
Fred, I'll take your numbers as gospel. But if you are talking about speed kills, you didn't list anything I'd consider to be "speed". 3900 is pedestrian. ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
And none of that stuff is as flat to 400 as a 55NBT at 4300. And, I can assure you, that load knocks a coyotes dick right in the dirt at 400 - even with a gutshot.
Wind... Different story. But also a story I'm not very interested in, for this particular application. It's rare that wind has a genuine problematic effect on my bullet placement in called coyote scenarios. It doesn't even register on my list of concerns when putting together a coyote killing machine. Yeah, I hold into it as needed, but, between the 100K plus rounds I've shot at colony varmints and the fact that I'm not out calling in bad wind anyway, it's just kinda easy? Not a hurdle at all. Can't think of any coyotes I've missed that wind was a real legitimate excuse.
I fully understand that wind makes a helluva difference to somebody else. Especially in Oklahoma! Or Wyoming. And especially at over 300. And extra especially if your not doing it just for fun like I am.
But my called coyotes? Wind cutting is nice, but not nearly as nice as ultra flat trajectory.
Long range, same deal. The heavies rule there. But calling coyotes, it's just not anything I care about. I've only taken a handful of shots over 400 the last couple of years. Killed pretty much all of them. Only took the shots because things were in my favor to do so. I can't think of any long shots I didn't take, that I would have, if I'd been slinging heavies though.
Not trying to convince anyone of anything, just filling in some of the background on my own thought process. Which, for me, my style, my hunting scenarios, the heavies bring nothing to the table for me (and I have worn out barrels shooting them, mind you - I do have "some" experience to go on).
All else being equal on the terminal end (which, I know, often it's not, but the 55NBT at 4300 is a proven killer), after accuracy it's all about the MPBR for me. The MPBR on the heavies, for my purposes, is just not appealing.
Recoil management and maintaining a sight picture are more important to me, than the wind cutting or long range trajectory of the heavies, too, as far as that goes. Not that you can't get there with heavies, but it definitely is easier with light for caliber bullets.
- DAA
Posted by knockemdown (Member # 3588) on March 27, 2014, 06:38 AM:
I hear ya, Dave!
Step the 64Berger up to 4K, and it still ain't making much difference. Least, not enough to raise my eyebrow.
And that's my point. The bigger .224 caliber cases just seem to produce more efficiently when pushing a big boolit.
Take Leonard's .22-243Middie. He's runnin' darn near the same speed as Cal's 22x47L. One would think it safe to assume that the much larger (22-243Middie) case would flat out spank the smaller (22x47L) case. But, with mid-weight bullets, it just don't. For the extra powder burned, there is minimal net gain in velocity.
That's why I feel that, when considering a beast like the .22-6mmImp, 22-243Imp, etc, stepping up to the heavier, higher bc. bullets makes sense. For the simple fact that, the margin of performance is more tangible, when compared to smaller cases. IE, those big fuckers are earnin' their keep when pushin' a big bullet...
Of course, you've taken that in the polar opposite direction in 6mm...going to a light bullet and beyond warp speed. I can certainly see the merit of going that route with your 6-284, as the super flat trajectory is tangible enough to take notice! Wicked, comes to mind...
However, when considering the long action, long necked 22-6mmImp, I just don't see the numbers shaking out to where a lighter bullet can be pushed fast enough to make that same tangible ballistic difference.
In .224 caliber, and from a beast like a .22-6mmImp, the heavies can be pushed fast enough to render the trajectory advantage of a lighter projectile almost inconsequential. And the wind/retained energy advantage of the heavies is substantial enough to warrant serious consideration...
DanS, I'd compare the .22-250AI and 22x47L to be neck & neck in capacity. Benefit going to the 22x47L, with its small primer pocket & higher pressure threshold
edits: cuz my syntax sux this mornin'
[ March 27, 2014, 06:47 AM: Message edited by: knockemdown ]
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on March 27, 2014, 08:15 AM:
Geeze, there are a lot of data points I could weigh in on here, and I could save myself some typing to just say DITTO to what Dave wrote above.
Light bullets as Kelly indicated, sometimes splash especially running shots and not in the boiler room.
Heavy, long bullets, in my opinion are great for a lot of applications but are they reliable killers, or do they far too often, xip through a coyote, again as Kelly mentioned.
Exactly as Dave said about the advantage in wind; shit, I don't call in wind anyway. And when I go to plan B, (which I won't go into) I break out my 25'06Ackley anyway, so long 22 caliber bullets don't make the team.
Sometimes, the math makes the argument, but where the rubber hits the road, you can't prove it. Even identical barrels can perform differently so using one set of fantastic numbers for MV and downrange, that barrel #2 can't equal the performance. It's just the physics of identical physical properties. In Paris, they are still trying to figure out why that cylinder of platinum keeps losing weight?
Basically, there is a reason why predator hunters don't use a 308. There is a natural reason why 22 and 24 caliber are chosen for some applications and why certain bullet weights are used; since nothing is new, under the sun. Nimrods have been necking down cartridges and loading heavy bullets for a hundred years, and raving about performance. Shouting in the wilderness, while everybody else loads a 22-250AI with a 55Nosler BT and calls it good.
As far as me rolling with 3810fps in a daylight gun, well, that's a result of those pesky NODES. Sometimes you have to choose between pure performance and pure performance, do I go with accuracy or velocity?
Good hunting. El Bee
Posted by knockemdown (Member # 3588) on March 27, 2014, 09:43 AM:
That's easy, Leonard.
If the same cartridge, in this case the 22-6mm Imp, can push a heavier bullet fast enough, to the point where it darn near shoots as flat as a lighter bullet (within 1"@300yds), I go with the one that will cheat the wind better.
And, if that same wind cheatin' bullet will deliver a significant amount more 'whoopazz', I giggle at my good fortune for the bonus that comes along with it!
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on March 27, 2014, 09:47 AM:
Still not getting it, eh?
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on March 27, 2014, 10:05 AM:
I got an email from one who shall not be named. Asks, <ahem> how many long range coyotes has he killed?
Cal has killed a few, Dave has killed a few, and modesty forbids, but to enhance the point, so have I. Let's call that group A. Then we have the eastern fan representing group B. Now, as to numbers, if this were a popularity contest, who wins?
There may be good valid reasons for an improved 6MM or just get a 6mmX'06, and there could be excellent reasons for long heavy bullets, like banging iron @ 1,000yds. I have always felt that hunting has it's own set of criteria that cannot be reduced to numbers on a chart.
And, that's the thing. Some people drive Fords. We all have choices. I want certain performance and although aware of the advantages of long heavy bullets, they do not impress me to the point where I am tempted to use them on game.
I am using the 105Berger hi bred in my 243Ackley. At no time did it cross my mind that this bullet would make a jim dandy coyote bullet. The application is long range targets. Period.
I love these discussions! You know; nobody's right and nobody's wrong.
Good hunting. El Bee
Posted by knockemdown (Member # 3588) on March 27, 2014, 10:09 AM:
Who...me?
No, I get it.
The .22-250AI pushing a ~55gr is "perfect", I really do.
After all, that's why Randy sold his slow twist .22-243Imp. All that extra powder capacity, and it wasn't living up to its potential with mid-weight bullets. In short, that huge case wasn't paying dividends with a mid weight bullet up front. Which, of course, is another instance of the 'rubber not meeting the road'...
I fully understand, and endorse Randy's decision, it makes perfect sense. Burn less powder, get close to the same performance, with less recoil.
I get it.
But...
That does not change the fact that, the very same .22-243Imp case could be a friggin' MONSTER with a purpose driven 1:8" twist, to spin 70-80gr bullets.
Sure, you're burnin' more powder in the bigger case.
Sure, you'll have a bit more resultant recoil.
But...
the ballistic and terminal advantage becomes evident & not so easily dismissed to 'nimrods'. 'Specially since the advent of .224 caliber, high bc, low bearing surface VLD type bullets in recent years. They change the game, from whence the old guard has crowned their king, and are deserving of more than a cursory dismissal of their benefits.
No matter, really. Just stickin' to my guns, so to speak. The 22-6mm Imp is meant to launch, heavies...and it does so with gusto!
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on March 27, 2014, 10:52 AM:
Shaw sold that 22-243? I'm surprised, a little.
However, I remember hunting with him in Texas, he started with the newer gun and somewhere along the way, broke out his trusty 22-250Ackley. I just figured he had more confidence in the physical characteristics of that rifle?
My 22-250Ackley weighs 18.5 pounds and is what is called a "truck gun" or a "Nevada Rifle".
Suddenly, I'm curious to know if my switch barrel in 22-250Ackley might be just as good with 55 gr Ballistic Tips? Then I won't be wasting 4.5 grains of powder on every shot.
Good hunting. El Bee
Posted by Kelly Jackson (Member # 977) on March 27, 2014, 11:07 AM:
Your Input Variables
Ballistic Coefficient .473 Velocity (ft/s) 3530 Weight (grains) 80
Maximum Range (yds) 1000 Interval (yds) 50 Drag Function G1
Sight Height (inches) 2.0 Shooting Angle (degrees) 0 Zero Range (yds) 240
Wind Speed (mph) 10 Wind Angle (degrees) 90 Altitude (ft) 0
Pressure (hg) 29.53 Temperature (F) 59 Humidity (%) 0.78
Ballistics Results
RANGE (YARDS) VELOCITY (FPS) ENERGY (FT.-LB.) TRAJECTORY (IN) COME UP IN MOA COME UP IN MILS WIND DRIFT (IN) WIND DRIFT IN MOA WIND DRIFT IN MILS
Well that didnt work for shit...point is the 80gr Amax with a 240 zero is a point and shoot coyote gun out to 350...they data looked pretty when I pulled it..lol
Muzzle 3530 2213 -2 0 0 0 0 0
50 3415 2071 -0.1 0.1 0 0.2 0.3 0.1
100 3303 1938 1.1 -1.1 -0.3 0.5 0.5 0.1
150 3194 1812 1.5 -1 -0.3 1.2 0.8 0.2
200 3088 1694 1 -0.5 -0.1 2.1 1 0.3
250 2984 1582 -0.4 0.1 0 3.3 1.3 0.4
300 2884 1477 -2.7 0.9 0.3 4.9 1.5 0.4
350 2785 1378 -6.1 1.7 0.5 6.7 1.8 0.5
400 2689 1284 -10.6 2.5 0.7 8.9 2.1 0.6
450 2594 1195 -16.4 3.5 1 11.4 2.4 0.7
500 2502 1112 -23.4 4.5 1.3 14.3 2.7 0.8
550 2411 1033 -31.8 5.5 1.6 17.5 3 0.9
600 2322 958 -41.7 6.6 1.9 21.2 3.4 1
[ March 27, 2014, 11:11 AM: Message edited by: Kelly Jackson ]
Posted by knockemdown (Member # 3588) on March 27, 2014, 11:50 AM:
Leonard, it might be. That combo sure seems like a wonderfully efficient pairing, from what Randy mentioned.
Without killing alot of coyotes, stepping up in case capacity has been natural progression. Seen guys running fast twist .22-250AIs & gettin' mid 3300s with 75 gr bullets. That is impressive, in & of itself.
So, I built a .22-243Win. Easy, schmeasy 'nimrod' neck down, and get 3450-3500 with 75gr Amaxs. Reaping ballistic benefits of increased powder capacity...
Then, ,go to Nebraska & see one of Randy's .22-243Imp cases, next to the .22-243Win I brought along. Wonder if too much of a good thing, can still have room to improve?
Turns out, it does. Me & KJ decide to have built .22-243Imp, but with fast twist tubes. KJ has shot prolly 30-40 coyotes already with his, and he might mention about that in more detail. I've killed a miniscule handful with my .22-243Win, and another miniscule handful more when fireforming for the .22-243Imp. They smack the shit outta coyotes, as in flip em backwards off their haunches. And they damn well should! In a 11 lb. rifle, I watched all mine fold up in the scope, recoil is very tolerable...
Certainly lucky to have a guy like KJ with the same rifle/bullet combo to glean good data from. He kills a buttload more coyotes than me, so hearing about how happy he is with it, makes me smile. Vicarious enjoyment, for a geographically challenged hunter.
Its all good, on my end. I'm just excited as heck with this new toy & possibly became a bit overzealous when this thread popped up to brag on such a similar combo. That .22-6mm Imp everything the .22-243Imp is, and then some! Would love to see the OP spin the same tube on and throttle up a big JLK to see what he gets!!!
[ March 27, 2014, 11:54 AM: Message edited by: knockemdown ]
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on March 27, 2014, 11:54 AM:
Okay, good. How far out is bang/flop? Or how close in?
There is just a hell of a lot of ways to do this stuff. But wait! Maybe I will switch to 80 gr. AMax? Might fit my freebore anyway?
Good hunting. El Bee
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on March 27, 2014, 12:03 PM:
The thing about original posters, (OP) is after everybody argues about all kinds of ancillary shit, the guy will go out and do something we never talked about. Happens every time. And we all feel like we've been pulled out....
Doesn't matter, good to argue this stuff. And, arguing calibers and bullets consumes much ink.
Good hunting. El Bee
Posted by TOM64 (Member # 561) on March 27, 2014, 12:31 PM:
Like I said about the 77 gr SMK's, they turn a 223 into a giant killer. Can't imagine a heavier bullet running at the speeds a 22-243ai could get would be any different.
But then we run into the bullets sweet spot. Run it too fast or too slow and we could get different results.
Tomorrow I'm stopping by my cousins range. He runs a 6mmAI and 87 gr Vmax's while I run the 105 Amax in my 243AI. We'll see how thing fair on steel out to 800 but I think both will work.
And that's the deal, both schools of thought work.
Oh and tell the unmentionable one that I hit a coyote with my 17 Remington at 650 yards. Found blood and saw him tip over but he was gone. So what could he know about long range coyotes?
Posted by Prune Picker (Member # 4107) on March 27, 2014, 01:30 PM:
White Mtn Cur, the 69gr Nosler you are using for fire form loads is, according to Nosler, intended for the 223/5.56 Service Rifle(AR15)@ 3000fps max velocity, along with their 77gr bullet are designed for 600yd Palma Match's. Same for Sierra's 69,77,80&90gr .224 bullets. I assume that most, if not all of the VLD bullets in .224 regardless of make, were originally intended for paper targets, & maybe slightly modified for muslum radicals in war zones.
I personally would clean your barrel & change bullets before giving up, maybe get someone with a bore scope to take a peek, looking for carbon deposits so common with HiCap 22's. I shoot a 6mmAI W/9 twist, had a bud who loved the 22-6mm & 22-284 for PD's & other varmints. He tried the fast twists (6 1/2 thru 9) & the more common 12&13 but passed away before making a decision on the perfect twist for the perfect bullet in 22 cal.
I have some of his notes, but the info is over a dozen yrs old using IMR4895, W760& H414,& some discontinued Norma powders. Good luck with your project.
Posted by knockemdown (Member # 3588) on March 27, 2014, 04:00 PM:
Leonard, I doubt an 80Amax would stabilize in your 1:12 middie. Might give a 60gr JLK LD a try? Recommended twist is 1:12...
Swampworks JLKs
Could possibly squeeek by with the 65 LD, too, with enough launch speed. The bc on the flat base LD JLKs beat the flat base Berger offerings by a good bit...
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on March 27, 2014, 06:55 PM:
Come on, Fred. I guess that's why we need to actually try these things. I have had no difficulty stabilizing 62 and 65 grain Bergers in the 22-243Middlested. Where are you getting your data?
I'm not grasping at straws. I have a settled load, sleep well at night.
Good hunting. El Bee
edit: but I sincerely appreciate your input and thank you for it, very much.
[ March 27, 2014, 07:04 PM: Message edited by: Leonard ]
Posted by knockemdown (Member # 3588) on March 28, 2014, 03:48 AM:
Leonard, data is coming from the link above that you apparently didn't click on.
Surf around & click on "LD bullets", You'll note that the .224 caliber offerings are spec'd with oal & bearing surface measurements, G1 bc., and recommdended twist rate.
Seeing as how those JLKs are used alot in the capacity Mike mentioned, I figure that recommended twist rate is for pedestrian service rifle launch speeds. So, that Middie of yours might just push 'em fast enough to get past the recommended twist, stated on the link.
That shit ain't gospel truth anyway, though I reckon Swampy has a pretty good handle on his custom boolits.
The 162Amaxs I run in my 7WSM clearly state "1:8 twist" right on the box, yet my Broughton 1:9 spins 'em plenty good. Go figure?
For your Middie, I do like the bc on those 65gr LD JLKs, though. Comparatively, the bc. on those flat base Bergers suck moose cock. And that shitty bc. is precisely the cause for seeing that wonderful launch speed pissed away and passed in 300yds by a slower, heavier, higher bc. bullet, when launched from a big .224.
K, I'm done.
signed, "Group B"
Posted by 3 Toes (Member # 1327) on March 28, 2014, 05:44 AM:
A couple quick points. There is a local smith here pushing the 22-243 hard. He builds tons of them for some of the local coyote hunters. Several I know well have had pressure issues in trying to get the 70 grain 22 calibers anywhere near 3500. Now that's not Ackley and it's also not 80 grain bullets so if your getting over 3500 with the 80s you are doing something ( and I believe you) that is magical and may not be repeatable. The next issue is running shots. We sometimes find it nessesary it seems and I do know that in that case I wish even my 22x47 was faster. I have shot various cartridges that were over 4 k and they were definitely easier to consistently kill running coyotes with. Leads seem way
more forgiving. With my 22x47 and the 62 grainers, I was
looking for a happy medium. Decent speed with better BC
than the old 52 and 55s everybody used to shoot. I'm not the guy to argue numbers or ballistics with anyone. I just am trying to use what I think is best for my purpose.
[ March 28, 2014, 05:46 AM: Message edited by: 3 Toes ]
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on March 28, 2014, 05:57 AM:
Me neither, really. (and I did click the link) But, I tend to zone out, makes my head bleed.
There is/are applications for serious target work, which are stationary for the most part. That's a valid mention, what Cal says about necessary lead on a running animal. I need all the help I can get.
Okay, once I exhaust my supply of these slow bergers, I might look into JLK LD bullets, just because group B speaks so highly of them.
Good hunting. El Bee
Posted by DiYi (Member # 3785) on March 28, 2014, 06:58 AM:
Amen Cal,220 imp with 50 BTs @4200-4300 is the best medicine for runners I've ever used.
Posted by Kelly Jackson (Member # 977) on March 28, 2014, 07:08 AM:
Retumbo gave 100FPS over R22 with the 80's in my barrel. I hear you on the running shots. If I get 1/2 of them I feel lucky.
So what IS the OP goin to do???
[ March 28, 2014, 07:11 AM: Message edited by: Kelly Jackson ]
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on March 28, 2014, 07:59 AM:
Yes, where's Trevor?
Interestingly, in 25'06Ackley, I found R22 to be worth almost 200fps over previous powders W760 and IMR4831.
Good hunting. El Bee
edit: that's another thing. On my third 25'06AI I had long since decided that 100 grain bullets were the best for my purposes. I tried a few others in 117 and 120 grain, what were available at the time and couldn't shake the conviction that a simple 100 gr. Nosler ballistic Tip did what I wanted to do. Others may have performed better at extreme range and the 75 TNT and VMax showed much higher velocity, but that middle of the road 100 grainer just kept performing and I was infatuated, in love. I'm still using it in limited work, whenever I get up in Nevada, it just sits there until I need to kill a 400 yard coyote that won't run away.
I'm sure somebody can suggest a sexy bullet that looks good on paper but, no thank you. I have what works for me.
Good hunting. El Bee
[ March 28, 2014, 08:59 AM: Message edited by: Leonard ]
Posted by knockemdown (Member # 3588) on March 28, 2014, 09:48 AM:
In a quick ladder test against RL-25 in my .22-243Imp, H-1000 gave 150fps more, pushing 75Amaxs.
Gonna mess with that powder behind the 80Amax & JLK, see what shakes out...
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on March 28, 2014, 10:03 AM:
Maybe none of the whippersnappers remember that during a previous shortage, when I wanted to look into H1000, it had virtually disappeared. I don't remember, maybe 10-12 years ago?
Just for orneriness I feel like a "Mano y Mano" putting my Middlested against that 22-243 that Fred is working with. What was the twist, on that beast, don't remember? I'm sure it's faster than my 1x12"?
You know what? I have a stack of sub .400" five shot groups from my 22-250Ackley, w/65 grain Bergers. That barrel has a (wait for it)
1 in 14" twist how is such a thing possible? Maybe it's because of the velocity? 3925fps, if anybody has forgotten.
We need to get to the bottom of this!
Good hunting. El Bee
Posted by DAA (Member # 11) on March 28, 2014, 10:36 AM:
FWIW, which is nothing, just a factoid, but Blaine was shooting the old Berger 64's in his .22-284, which is a 15 twist. He was pushing them well over 4K.
- DAA
Posted by knockemdown (Member # 3588) on March 28, 2014, 10:51 AM:
Berger recommends a 1:12" twist for that 64, so don't doubt the crazy velocity intentionally compensating for slower twist.
Leonard, get a Campout lined up FOR REAL this year!
I will fly out & bring this 22-243Imp (1:8 Brux) and we can have some fun shootin' shit & comparing notes between rifles...
THAT WAS NOT A CHALLENGE!!!
Please don't misunderstand my intentions.
I'd love the opportunity to meet everyone, chew the fat & shoot rifles!!!
Maybe there's a spot where we could put a bunch of targets up from realistic distances of 1-400yds, and see what shakes out.
Prone, stixs, whatever...that'd be a pisser!!!
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on March 28, 2014, 11:17 AM:
Fred, I am still chewing on Jiff peanut butter, smooth, per your recommendation. I can't wait to finish this jar and start on the other one, (Costco) because then I am that much closer to going back to Skippy Crunchy. Victor was also in on that deal so there is enough blame to "spread" around. ![[Wink]](wink.gif)
You desire shooting contests? How about Vic showing us how to shoot tossed eggs with a 22, you might want to practice for that one. Sometimes **** is involved, like I can pick up a chair, one handed, by one leg, and can tear a phonebook in half. At one time, that is.
Dave, that's interesting about Blaine's rifle. I had 55's going about 4400, if only they would hold together?
Good hunting. El Bee
Posted by DAA (Member # 11) on March 28, 2014, 11:33 AM:
Blaine was beyond the pale with his loads.
Fred, you might remember, I got a .20 Dasher barrel from him? He included some loaded ammo in the deal.
I could tell right away those loads were too hot for my taste. Sticky/stiff bolt lift and all that. But I shot them up anyway, easier than pulling bullets. About 40 rounds worth.
So, anyway, only put a few rounds through it to get zeroed 1.5" high at 100 and then went out to kill 'chucks with it.
I missed my first three shots in a row on a couple 'chucks out around 370 yards (lased, not estimated). My buddy spotting for me kept telling me "high" and I could see it for myself though the scope, I was hitting high.
Could not hardly reckon it though. The target cross section on a chuck laying facing you is only a couple of inches. I knew the rifle was dead nutz 1.5" high at 100. Therefore, I KNEW it had to be a bit low at 370. So I was holding right on the high side hair line of those 'chucks but hitting just slightly higher than I was holding.
Accepted it, adjusted my hold, started splatting 'chucks.
Later, I clocked those loads. 39BK's at 4675 fps! You want to talk FLAT! Holy shit...
Like I said, Blaine like to tip the powder can for sure. Beyond the pale...
Still, my perfectly sane working load for that rifle still has those 39BK's zipping along better than 4400. Still pretty dang flat. Kinda lacking in the "air time" department though. Still much prefer my .22-250AI w/55 Vmax for 'chucks. Sends 'em to the moon.
- DAA
Posted by knockemdown (Member # 3588) on March 28, 2014, 11:37 AM:
Dude, ya lost me on the Jif part, but I was responding to the "mano y mano" part, from earlier.
After all, what kinda man would I be if I tossed all kinds of "BC" this, and "fast twist" that crap around, but slinked away at the opportunity to let the rifle do the talking?
If the opportunity arises (read: Campout), I'd love it to get together and do some shooting! NOT under the pretenses that I extended to dickweed last winter, but in the genuine spirit of good fun!!!
Wouldn't be worth flying across the country, otherwise...
EDIT: was typing with ya, Dave!
I remember that. Fuckin' crazy!!!
Still have yet to get a handle on that pencil contour 1:14 Hart in .22BR I got through you. Think its still floating somewhere around one of Utah's orbital rings? Dunno...
[ March 28, 2014, 11:41 AM: Message edited by: knockemdown ]
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on March 28, 2014, 11:44 AM:
I'm most definitely with you, Dave. I like performance as much as the next guy but will not push the pressures. It has to be something durable and reloadable. I will not tolerate pierced primers and split necks. And, I almost always get more than ten reloads from my performance arsenal.
Good hunting. El Bee
edit: Fred, it's ALL good natured. All of it.
[ March 28, 2014, 11:48 AM: Message edited by: Leonard ]
Posted by knockemdown (Member # 3588) on March 28, 2014, 11:45 AM:
And speaking of Peanut butter, Leonard...
When you see this Micky stock that's coming for the .22-243Imp, you're gonna crack up! Ordered it in December, should be here in the next few weeks..
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on March 28, 2014, 11:50 AM:
I can't wait, Fred. Wish I had your money!
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on March 28, 2014, 12:11 PM:
Fred, the attitude at the campout is not competitive, no balls to the walls dawn to dusk hunting. I think it's mostly visiting with friends and casually doing a little hunting, when it strikes our fancy.
I have been involved in more hunting contests than most people. It's a different set up, entirely. And, that's why, from the start, we have called it a campout and not a hunt.
Good hunting. El Bee
PS hey, shouldn't you be working?
Posted by TOM64 (Member # 561) on March 28, 2014, 02:30 PM:
Interesting point Cal brings up about runners.
As promised, we shot today to 800 yards and the results? I have 2" less wind drift and make the plates swing a little harder. Way too much time for the bullet to reach a live target with either one. Unless the target insists on staying put.
So really I didn't see much difference tween the 105 and the 87 gr bullets. Oh I know there's a difference but maybe not enough to bet the farm on.
And at 500 yards it's a draw regardless what the numbers say and for killing coyotes that's plenty far enough.
Posted by WhiteMtnCur (Member # 5) on March 28, 2014, 06:40 PM:
I really appreciate all the insight.
Based on this discussion, I am confident in choosing a 1:12 twist. Well, until Leonard and Dave decided to discuss slow twists adequately stabilizing 65gr bullets…
I'll attempt to get the 65gr JLK over 4000 with satisfactory performance. If the 65gr JLK doesn’t make the cut than I’ll use the 60gr JLK as option #2.
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on March 28, 2014, 07:30 PM:
As long as you get somewhere in the neighborhood of 190,000RPM, that should be considered stabilized for our purposes. You can do it with barrel twist and/or sometimes velocity turns the trick.
Good hunting. El Bee
Posted by TOM64 (Member # 561) on March 29, 2014, 04:18 AM:
I don't think the 1/12 will work with the JLK bullets unless you use the special run of flat base JLK's.
Edit: ok the flat based 65 LD bullets are recommended for an optimal 1/10 twist so pushing them that fast will probably work.
[ March 29, 2014, 07:34 AM: Message edited by: TOM64 ]
Posted by DanS (Member # 316) on March 29, 2014, 09:07 AM:
How much speed do you guys think could be obtained using a 1-14 twist instead of a 1-12, or even a 1-10 for that matter?
[ March 29, 2014, 09:09 AM: Message edited by: DanS ]
Posted by knockemdown (Member # 3588) on March 29, 2014, 09:35 AM:
quote:
Faster than necessary twist rates have many effects, but most are subtle.
Something like a 1:8" .308 Win shooting 175's can produce very slightly higher BC's thru supersonic (on the order of 1%), and noticeably higher BC's thru transonic (I've measured greater than 5% difference going from 1:12" to 1:8"). The effect isn't so dramatic in ballistic performance, as in you'll see any less wind drift, but where it can matter is with drop predictions being off. But before you consider this a major issue, ask yourself how much shooting you do thru transonic.
Another effect is on precision (groups), based on how well balanced the bullets are. You won't see groups affected by twist so much for well balanced bullets, but for poorly balanced bullets you can see noticable growth in groups with faster twist. Over a range of 1:8" to 1:12", I've measured group averages (again, 308's with 175's) that ran from like .9" to .6" for poorly balanced bullets, but for well balanced bullets the average only ran like .6" to .5" (something like that, I'd have to check my notes to be sure on the exact numbers).
Someone brought up a good point about the effect of run-out in fast twist. That makes sense also as misalignment would cause more dispersion in faster twists. I'll have to run a test on that as well.
Some people worry about losing muzzle velocity with faster twist. Testing shows this just isn't the case, at least not at a level that's significant. I think it was like 1 or 2 fps per inch of twist.
-Bryan
Bryan Litz, Berger Bullets
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on March 29, 2014, 11:38 AM:
Okay, all well and good. However, I am not concerned with a 1% velocity loss of an 8 twist.
My concern is throat erosion using conventional weight bullets, not VLD. And, the necessary throating for those long bullets.
Like the tackticool people say, this ain't benchrest. Neither is what we are doing sniper hide stuff hitting 1000 yard gongs.
Everybody has a big idea, and we all have heroes. Some of mine lurk right here on HM.
Good hunting. El Bee
edit: We don't have to count by "twos". My 25'06 has a 13 twist, seems to work with 100 grain bullets?
[ March 29, 2014, 11:39 AM: Message edited by: Leonard ]
Posted by knockemdown (Member # 3588) on March 29, 2014, 02:32 PM:
Safe to say, mine do, too...
Posted by Prune Picker (Member # 4107) on March 29, 2014, 06:46 PM:
Not trying to stray too far from the original post but it doesn't seem so long ago that requesting a faster than 1/12 twist in 30cal HiPower (M1A,7.62x51)barrel would result in odd stares and "we occasionally cut 1/11 twist barrels for the Palma Match bullet" reply's. Can anyone bring me up to date on when double digit twist rates become obsolete? Please forgive me if I sound like a smartass and or a dumbass or both, but I honestly was hesitant when ordering a barrel with "god forbid" a 1/9 fast twist barrel in .243,.257,.308,& a 1/10 .338 barrel, without the mention of using the Mono Metal bullets. Maybe I should be looking for a senior citizen discount price when I shop for reloading supplys.
Posted by TOM64 (Member # 561) on March 29, 2014, 09:00 PM:
When people got tired of those plastic mouse guns kicking their asses at the 1000 yard line, according to Walt Berger if I remember right.
It's a natural tendency to want to go further, faster and harder in life same as shooting. Light bullets kill fine at hunting distances but long range shooting is addictive so you start thinking how can I get better at this? Better equipment and practice helps. I fired 23 rounds yesterday at 500, 700 and 800 yards and 140 rounds today from 200 yards (50 of those were with the 22 at 200) doing my part. Running down to the 200 yard line and back then firing a magazine of 223 at the 8" steel plate, causing it to swing, then timing my next shot to stop it from swinging while out of breath was just for fun. I did use a bipod but no rear bag.
Shooting is supposed to be fun and if it makes you a better shot on game, so much the better.
Oh and I need to cut a lighter, smaller plate for the 22, those light bullets don't make a regular plate swing very well.
[ March 29, 2014, 09:08 PM: Message edited by: TOM64 ]
Posted by Prune Picker (Member # 4107) on March 29, 2014, 11:46 PM:
If you're shooting Sierras in the AR's, you're shooting a bullet that was designed over 20 yrs. ago, and is missing the must have plastic tip on it for higher published BC's. Funny thing the real VLD's are missing the plastic tips too.
Which reminds me of a mutual friend of Tom & I who has several $$,$$$ tied up in a rifle. One recent night he was out hunting and made a nice shot on a coyote at over 250 yds., the next night he shot at and missed a skunk 5 times at less than 60 yds. Same rifle & scope with dials and night vision + other stuff that conservatively totals $$,$$$. He is a capable rifleman whom prides himself on making a shot but got all crossed up flipping switches and turning dials thinking his custom rifle & 3.00$ per round of ammo was going to kill a skunk for him.
Posted by DiYi (Member # 3785) on March 30, 2014, 04:20 AM:
Mike,
Sad but funny about your friend.I build my long range(heavy bullet)20-250 and then shot a few over 500 with it and,as stated in that scope thread on here awhile ago was 'happy' with the Nightforce full of ballistic aids.
I quickly discovered that,yes,I occ get a long range one but as often miss a runner within 200 yds due to a scope full of 'detail'. ![[Frown]](frown.gif)
Rifle is fine,scope sucks for my main hunting needs.
Posted by TOM64 (Member # 561) on March 30, 2014, 05:21 AM:
I've never shot a true VLD bullet, don't even have a seater for one.
And yes it's true, it's easy to get lost in all the clutter, especially in scopes. That's one reason all of my scopes have a plain duplex. Being a simple minded okie, it just makes sense to kill it in the middle of the scope.
I remember when JB had me send his Tubbs 2000 or whatever it is, down to David so he could put the new reticle in his scope and then he'd show him how to shoot it when he picked it up. When you start considering the earth spinning, in your shots, you've reached the long range shooters club.
Me, I'm just taking advantage of everything I feel will make me a better shot on game. That means the bullet has to perform like a hunting bullet and not a true target bullet. Shooting the longer shots gives me the knowledge and more importantly, the confidence to make the shots at extended hunting ranges. Which to me is about 500 yards, although with the right gun in my hands, 700 was a lot easier Friday than it was 2 years ago when I first started shooting steel.
That's another thing, all of my guns, save the 22, are light weights. I'm not gonna tote a 10 lb rifle anywhere. I'm still using 3.5-10 scopes and I can still kill a coyote up close.
Posted by TOM64 (Member # 561) on March 30, 2014, 05:30 AM:
Cuzz just sent me a pic of a coyote he shot this morning at 374 yards. I should've never showed him a laser range finder...
223AI machine gun with a 50 gr NBT no less.
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on March 30, 2014, 05:54 AM:
Nope, can't be done!
Hat's off to you guys. I don't even WANT to shoot iron at 700 yards if it helped killing, never missing coyotes at reasonable distances.
So, that kind of clears things up. I am learning a bit about "connections" and apparently Tom and Prune picker are buddies? (WHO KNEW?)
I didn't actually pick up on that until quite recently. Although, I should have; Oklahoma, handguns up the gazoo, etc.
Good hunting. (where's my Pea cons?) El Bee
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on March 30, 2014, 05:56 AM:
And, under no circumstances are we to stray from the original post, if you know what's good for you!
Posted by DanS (Member # 316) on March 30, 2014, 07:12 AM:
quote:
And, under no circumstances are we to stray from the original post, if you know what's good for you!
Has that ever happened here?
Posted by TOM64 (Member # 561) on March 30, 2014, 07:13 AM:
Nothing is ever a yes or no answer if you want details.
Posted by Dave Allen (Member # 3102) on March 30, 2014, 11:28 AM:
I noticed Jiff peanut butter was mentioned. I believe quite some time ago. It was determined Skippy was the peanut butter of choice among the HM crew (smooth of course)
Not only is it a great snack in the field. It's proven as a superior bore cleaner.
Just sayin'
Posted by Prune Picker (Member # 4107) on March 30, 2014, 01:31 PM:
WhiteMtnCur, If you have narrowed your choice down to a 1/12 or 1/14 twist, I suggest calling the barrel maker('s) and ask what they recommend.
Earlier I mentioned a bud who shot a 22x6AI & 22-284, after he passed away his family offered some of his machine shop equipment & barrel blanks for sale, seems his preferred 22 wildcat twist rate was 1/13.??, using premium barrels and conventional/traditional predator bullets ie: Hollow Point Flat Base.
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on March 30, 2014, 02:21 PM:
I'm mildly surprised that a lot of people, concerned as they are with twist, never ask about rifling. Cut, button rifled, and the actual number of rifling. Sure, when you get it you can count them, but nobody bothers to specify, 5R, 3 groove, etc.
Most of my barrels, (and I don't own as many as some of you guys) are made by Hart, 6 groove, which is very orthodox, and boring, I suppose?
There are several characteristics of a barrel that can be predicted once you stick your big toe in to test the water. Ease of cleaning/lack of fouling, etc.
Like barrel "makers". Some come and go and some have a lot of fans, F class has preferred barrel makers and bench rest, others. I remember reading several years ago about someone that won a big trophy and surprise! surprise! It was a chrome/moly Douglas, fer cripes sake! They failed to mention air gauge or what number of grooves?
Good hunting. El Bee
Posted by Prune Picker (Member # 4107) on March 30, 2014, 02:43 PM:
I'm more concerned about where the steel is coming from & no not Montana! What part of China? There are rumors floating around that some old fashioned American Steel is available, but no one is advertising it on the www. Then (for me) the Single Cut, Button, or Hammer Forged preference comes into the picture. Unless it's going to be a #5 or larger contour, its going to be Chrome Moly for me.
Posted by TOM64 (Member # 561) on March 30, 2014, 05:04 PM:
I've had a 3 groove SS PacNor barrel but never even shot it.
I've had 3 Noveske polygonal rifled SS barrels that have all been shooters that aren't prone to fouling. Noveske SS barrels are made from PacNor blanks by PacNor employees on PacNor machines, I think all Noveske did was chamber and install the barrel extension.
And I've got two Douglass SS barrels, don't have a clue about them other than they shoot. Here's a 500 yard group I shot Friday with the 243AI after allowing for too much wind, that's a 10" plate I think and disregard the 223 AI mark in the middle of my group.
I have friends with Shilen, Rock, Douglass and probably a few more but none stand out as being better or worse so I just don't worry about it except they have to be SS.
[ March 30, 2014, 05:09 PM: Message edited by: TOM64 ]
Posted by knockemdown (Member # 3588) on March 31, 2014, 04:09 AM:
quote:
And yes it's true, it's easy to get lost in all the clutter, especially in scopes. That's one reason all of my scopes have a plain duplex. Being a simple minded okie, it just makes sense to kill it in the middle of the scope.
Tom, that's why I'm so fond of the FFP Gen II mildot in my Premier 3-15x scopes. On low mag, effectively, it is a visual twin to the standard duplex...heavy outer posts, balanced with thinner inners, to draw your eye naturally to center.
It is only when ya crank the mag up, that 0.5mil subtensions on the inner sections become apparent. So simple, yet so useable...
Posted by Kelly Jackson (Member # 977) on March 31, 2014, 06:12 AM:
After we worked a load up in his new 22-243AI using 80gr Berger VLD’s and Retumbo powder, the MV was showing right at 3500.
Loaded the data into Isnipe and told him to line it up on the 500 yard target.
Looks like I missed the wind angle call by a MOA, or the Berger cheated the wind, but elevation was pretty much spot on.
Here is a pic of the first group after load workup my buddy John shot at 500 yards in a bad wind gusting from 12 to 26 MPH right to left yesterday afternoon.
[URL=http://s24.photobucket.com/user/prpz041/media/20140330_123157_zps93e3980b.jpeg.html] 
[/ URL]
Pretty sure John was smiling on his drive home back to NM.
[ March 31, 2014, 06:15 AM: Message edited by: Kelly Jackson ]
Posted by TOM64 (Member # 561) on March 31, 2014, 09:18 AM:
Fred, I've been thinking of a swfa super chicken fixed 10x with the mil reticle for my 22. It has a ton of elevation and the extra mils in the reticle could get me past 300 yards. I've used a mil dot scope before and it wasn't bad but the Boone and Crocket reticle, while somewhat useful, I always used the regular crosshair when things got hairy. I couldn't imagine trying to use a Horris reticle.
Kelly it's always good when a plan comes together. A few rounds of shooting like that and those 250-300 yard shots are gonna be easy.
Posted by UTcaller (Member # 8) on March 31, 2014, 10:24 AM:
55 grain Bergers and a 12 twist .22-250 Ackley Improved at almost 4000 fps .Probably not a good long range steel gong combination but it sure knocks the shit out of the coyote to 400 yards or so.
Good Hunting Chad
Posted by knockemdown (Member # 3588) on March 31, 2014, 11:18 AM:
Whitemtcur,
If you want to try some 80grainers in that beast, I'd be happy to send ya some 80Amax and 80SMKs. Wouldn't doubt if either one held together and made ya smile!
In the interest of science, and all...
Posted by Kelly Jackson (Member # 977) on March 31, 2014, 11:47 AM:
Wish you were here close and I would spot you some good slow burning powder to see what tose 80's would do from a 22-6MM AI for sure.
Regards
Kelly
Posted by TOM64 (Member # 561) on March 31, 2014, 12:09 PM:
Chad it's probably not a bad combination either at least until 700 or so. I'm gonna try my 22-250AI with 55 NBT's to see how they do before revisiting the 75 Amax.
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on March 31, 2014, 12:21 PM:
If it counts for anything, amongst Kalifornia 22-250Ackley coyote hunters; and maybe it won't? The consensus bullet is the 55 grain Nosler ballistic Tip.
Good hunting. El Bee
Posted by R.Shaw (Member # 73) on March 31, 2014, 05:20 PM:
Thats what I use Leonard and like Chad said, very deadly to 400. Much beyond that and I aint very deadly.
Posted by Az-Hunter (Member # 17) on March 31, 2014, 06:08 PM:
Back in the late 80s', I read as much Ross Seyfried stuff as I could get my hands on. He was a big fan of the .22-250 AI, and he made me one too. For my style of coyote hunting it was just more gun than I liked or needed. I killed a lot of coyotes with it, but it eventually ended up being used more for prairie dog hunting than predators. I used a stout load of H414 and the Nosler 55 grain BT, seemed to be the combination my rifle liked.
Posted by TOM64 (Member # 561) on March 31, 2014, 06:21 PM:
Yes Leonard it always matters, remember I'm shooting the 55 NBT based on yours Geordie and Randy's recommendation.
I'm only running mine at 3824 fps, I could possibly squeeze more out of the 22" barrel but it grouped well and it was time to hunt. I'm gonna work on this one and the 75 Amax again when 100 degree temps arrive.
But for now the 55 NBT is working just fine even in the 1/8 twisted barrel.
Posted by jimanaz (Member # 3689) on March 31, 2014, 08:29 PM:
If you hadn't REALLY made up your mind, you should have saved those bullets. I wasn't desperate, just nervous.
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on March 31, 2014, 09:12 PM:
quote:
Thats what I use Leonard and like Chad said, very deadly to 400. Much beyond that and I aint very deadly. AR Shaw
Bullshit. I saw you hit a grapefruit size rock at 506 yards 6 or 8 times. With MY rifle.
Good hunting. El Bee
Posted by TOM64 (Member # 561) on April 01, 2014, 04:25 AM:
Not a problem Jim, I saved one box that were moly'd and they will make more. I have my doubts that I can get them to work in my gun at the velocity I wanted with my 22" barrel.
I sold a few more bullets I didn't use and now have a good stash of the 55 NBT's sitting in their place.
[ April 01, 2014, 04:26 AM: Message edited by: TOM64 ]
Posted by Kelly Jackson (Member # 977) on April 01, 2014, 05:15 AM:
Tom how many 75gr amax you sitting on?
Posted by UTcaller (Member # 8) on April 01, 2014, 05:16 AM:
700 yards? Man, I'll leave that to you long range boys. I will stick to my reality and that's around 400 yards.
Good Hunting Chad
Posted by Kelly Jackson (Member # 977) on April 01, 2014, 06:50 AM:
At the end of the day we all have built for purpose rifles. No one knows your purpose better than you do.
Shot a bunch of coyotes with a 55gr NBT from that 12 twist 243AI running 4150. Liked it enough that I sold the 22-250s’ and a 223WSSM shooting 55gr NBT’s. In my mind, the ability to shoot a 55gr bullet faster and still have the ability to shoot the 85gr class of bullets, kinda made them obsolete.
It will be a long time before I kill that many with the 22-243AI shooting the heavies as it was built with windy days and contest in mind.
The 204AI and the 17-204 are just too much fun not to carry for most coyotes around here.
Yall take care
Kelly
Posted by TOM64 (Member # 561) on April 01, 2014, 07:22 AM:
Kelly I just have one opened box left for R&D.
Now Chad, haven't you ever had a coyote sitting way out there scolding you that you didn't want to take a poke at? What's wrong with being capable should the opportunity arise?
I had my oldest daughter and SIL at the range this past fall and once we got the basics covered on the machine gun and the 3x ACOG, I had her shoot the 8" plate at 200 yards. The confidence she gained from ringing the bell at, to her was way out there, turned into two deer that didn't stand a chance under 100 yards for her.
Hunting is still a close range game but I'm gonna do my best to be prepared for anything.
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on April 01, 2014, 08:26 AM:
I do not knock what you guys are doing, as long as it keeps you out of the Honky Tonks.
Chad is hunting my areas up in northern Nevada that I only get to a couple times a year, anymore. It rains so seldom, he can probably find my footprints or tire tracks. It don't get any more remote than that. It's wide open, you actually could see a coyote at 700 yards, just about any direction 360̊̊...until he falls down, that is.
I won't say I never took a shot at a coyote beyond 400 yards, but I'm learning. For me, at least, 700 yards off sticks is wishful thinking.
You kind of learn discipline, hunting at night. Taking the shot is the easy part. Now, you have to find him, stumbling around in the dark with a flashlight and I promise, that is a skill set. A learning curve, for sure. The worst thing I can think of is hitting a coyote, hearing a hit and not finding him. Hate it.
I'll be honest. I just don't give a shit about gongs. You know, the tacticool guys know exactly where they are, on barrel life, you hear a lot about "round count". Yet, they bang away. I have little interest in it. Meh. End of rant.
Good hunting. El Bee
Posted by UTcaller (Member # 8) on April 01, 2014, 09:09 AM:
I really don't get an itch to shoot at 600+ Yard coyotes. They are just to damn far away for this coyote caller to shoot at.I might poke at one at 500 yards but that is my limit. I would say 99% of the coyotes i shoot at are 0-300 yards so to have a special fast twist gun shooting heavy high B.C bullets seems like a waste for my style of calling. And I am like Leonard i don't get into shooting gongs or eggs or any of that stuff. So if i am shooting a fast 55-65 grain flat base Berger bullet that will kill a coyote very effectively out to say 400 yards I'm very happy.
Good Hunting Chad
[ April 01, 2014, 09:13 AM: Message edited by: UTcaller ]
Posted by TOM64 (Member # 561) on April 01, 2014, 12:17 PM:
If y'all are happy, I'm happy.
Who am I kidding, I'm happy regardless!
Posted by Kokopelli (Member # 633) on April 01, 2014, 12:38 PM:
I'm happy that we're all happy.
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on April 01, 2014, 12:54 PM:
I'm just pleased as punch that y'all are happy. Just gives me the warm fuzzies all over.
Damn, it's cold here, I don't want to be outside. I want to move somewhere where it's warm. Like Arizona.
But, will I ever? Just moving my shit seems like a huge undertaking?
I'm going to stop paying my mortgage, maybe they will evict me? I need something, a real incentive to pry my ass out of here!
Good hunting. El Bee
Posted by TOM64 (Member # 561) on April 01, 2014, 02:10 PM:
Hey it's 77 degrees here, I'm fixing to go run 3.5 miles. If ya moved here I'd let ya shoot plates. ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
Posted by DiYi (Member # 3785) on April 01, 2014, 02:15 PM:
LB,
From what I'm hearing,the San Andreas fault may help you out on the move.
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on April 01, 2014, 02:33 PM:
Yeah, but I'm on the deep water side. Obama, pleeze hep me! I voted for you!
Good hunting. El Bee
Posted by Dave Allen (Member # 3102) on April 01, 2014, 06:12 PM:
I think Leonard should move to Oklahoma..
Seems like the dudes we have here that live there are pretty chill..
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on April 01, 2014, 06:40 PM:
Yeah, might be a good idea, but. I hear Okies are clannish, especially towards refugees from The People's Republik. Any truth to that?
Good hunting. El Bee
Posted by TOM64 (Member # 561) on April 01, 2014, 07:31 PM:
You'd have to ask prune picker...
Posted by knockemdown (Member # 3588) on April 02, 2014, 04:59 AM:
quote:
I'll be honest. I just don't give a shit about gongs. You know, the tacticool guys know exactly where they are, on barrel life, you hear a lot about "round count". Yet, they bang away. I have little interest in it. Meh. End of rant.
Leonard, what is your preferred target medium?
And how does said target affect who's more 'cool'?
Practice is practice, isnt it? Is the instant confirmation and gratification allowed from a steel plate target that hard to find favor with?
Posted by Brent Parker (Member # 4354) on April 02, 2014, 05:23 AM:
Leonard,
I'm sure Vic would still sell you his place then you could move to the big city of McNeal.
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on April 02, 2014, 06:39 AM:
Yeah, well.
There'd be some changes made with Boyd, that's for sure. And, he'd better be a damned good cook, 'cause he sure ain't too cute!
Vic's been way too easy on him, if you ask me? I'd see to it he changed the sheets on DanS bed once a week. And, kept the damned weeds chopped down!
And, another thing. Those "Ohio" boys can't hunt south of I-10 anymore, or they will have to find somewhere else to bunk! This scorched earth stuff is getting out of hand! Like they used to say in the U.S. Army, I'll bring pee!
Now, what were we talking about?
Good hunting. El Bee
edit: "Leonard, what is your preferred target medium?"
road signs, like everybody else!
[ April 02, 2014, 06:41 AM: Message edited by: Leonard ]
Posted by DAA (Member # 11) on April 02, 2014, 06:46 AM:
I like rock chucks, jack rabbits and coyotes for target medium, m'self. Have to admit, can't hardly be bothered to mess with a prairie dog anymore - they are almost as boring as shooting steel gongs.
- DAA
Posted by TOM64 (Member # 561) on April 02, 2014, 07:20 AM:
We don't have jacks or chucks or prairie doggies. Steel is good practice.
Oh and for my "dedicated" long range rigs, they work up close too and are of the mountain rifle variety instead of the usual BR types.
Still smiling in Okieland!
Posted by UTcaller (Member # 8) on April 02, 2014, 07:50 AM:
Yeah i get all the practice i need shooting coyotes the problem with steel gongs is no matter how much you blow your distress call you can't get them to come any closer.
Good Hunting Chad
Posted by TOM64 (Member # 561) on April 02, 2014, 09:14 AM:
Try the steel gong estrus chirp.
Posted by DanS (Member # 316) on April 02, 2014, 09:24 AM:
quote:
Vic's been way too easy on him, if you ask me? I'd see to it he changed the sheets on DanS bed once a week. And, kept the damned weeds chopped down!
Sheets, you guys get sheets?
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on April 02, 2014, 10:37 AM:
quote:
Sheets, you guys get sheets?
Well, to be totally honest, last time I was requested to use my bag on top of the made up bed. Then smooth out the wrinkles when I got up. I think it was the maid's day off?
Good hunting. El Bee
PS seriously, I'm blaming you "Ohio" boys for the lack of targets this past year. Let them breed back, leave a few for seed! Maybe it's the other Dark Side guy Shaun Frame, does he live in Ohio?
Posted by DanS (Member # 316) on April 02, 2014, 11:02 AM:
Yes, Frame lives in Ohio.
To be honest, I've only been to Vic's house a few times. Once is when his Wonderful wife, prepared a feast for us hunters. Mrs C is very nice, I think Vic gave us a bologna sandwich?
I usually stay down the road at Brents or Dons place. Don't get to see Brent much either, he works about 8 days a week, 60 or so weeks a year.
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on April 02, 2014, 11:48 AM:
Yeah, I like Dorathee too. Vic's a lucky man.
I have not actually met Don, other than a few emails. I have seen his place driving by. Brent, don't know him at all? He parachutes in here every six months or so?
Good hunting. El Bee
edit: speaking of Dorathee, when she left for work one morning is the only time I have ever got a hug from an officer in uniform. (beat that, Jimanez!)
[ April 02, 2014, 11:50 AM: Message edited by: Leonard ]
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