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Author
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Topic: Seasonal Protection for the Coyote
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Rich Higgins
unknown comic
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posted May 30, 2011 01:39 PM
Seasonal Protection for the Coyote
I’ll try to tie this up and finally put it to rest.
Each spring the subject of hunting coyotes during denning season arises on the boards and is the source of much entertainment.
They usually began with an innocent question or comment about calling when puppies are in the den. Some responded pro ,more responded nay. As the threads progressed and escalated in emotional content they would become personal and sometimes abusive.
Inevitably, some uncaring or unknowing person would post hero shots posing with puppies blown up like a prairie dog and really fan the flames.
Vic Carlson, Cal Taylor and I would participate in these flame wars and we became very good at pointing out the lack of logic and morality in some of the most abusive and emotional posts. We did not make many friends doing so.
To be clear, I do not understand how anyone can shoot puppies for fun. I do not understand how anyone can feel good about the hunt or themselves after killing nursing female coyotes knowing the suffering they just orchestrated..
After such statements it is inevitable that someone would call me Disney Delusional or some such that diverts attention from the real issue of basic decency.
It is my belief that granting coyotes a 3 or 4 month break from the pressure applied to them by callers during denning and pup rearing will benefit us greatly, especially near urban areas that unleash armies of callers each year, by gifting us with larger populations of coyotes with higher security levels than the previous spring.
Many callers agree with the preceding until the issue of hunting seasons for coyotes arises.
My position as an Az resident is that it would be more beneficial for callers than detrimental for the reasons I cited in the preceding paragraph.
Lions, bear, fox, bobcat, badger, raccoon, ringtails, and coati-mundi all are provided protection without any of the chickenlittle scenarios feared by most opponents of a season for the coyote. Naturally, and very importantly, depredation permits must be granted on demand for offending coyotes without red tape or delay.
I just do not buy the argument that providing a season on coyotes will erode our freedoms as many opponents proclaim. Every other animal in Az., with the exception of invasive species, has been provided that protection without robbing us of our rights and freedoms.
But those are only my opinions and personal beliefs and I have never made any effort to have a season enacted anywhere at any time. To each his own.
Alas, in the heat of a debate with a particularly obstreperous and unpleasant individual, who’s posts seemed to question my parentage and my right to breathe his air, I was told that my beliefs were anti American and anti all that was good and pure.
The blithering idiot annoyed me and in yanking his chain I made the major mistake of stating something that was not true just to piss him off.
I stated that I not only believed in the necessity of a season but that I would campaign tirelessly for one. Major mistake. That has followed me for years and bit me in the ass on several occasions.
Most notably Brent Rueb canceled my seminar at the World Event a couple of years ago when provided that info by a couple of my admirers.
Jay Nistetter sent two letters to the Board of Directors and to the general membership of PVCI in an attempt to have me impeached as president of PVCI before I even took office.
And my friend Leonard Bosinski raked me over the coals here:
http://www.huntmastersbbs.com/cgi/cgi-ubb/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=6;t=002314;p=1
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the bearhunter
HM PROSTAFF & MIDWEST REGIONAL GURU VOTED MOST HANDSOME MINNESOTAN
Member # 3552
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posted May 30, 2011 02:21 PM
well Rich. for what it worth?? i would appose a season on coyotes. i believe they are way to adaptable for anyone but the "Best of the Best" to control. up untill last year i considered myself a medicore coyote hunter. i spent some time with an A.D.C. guy for a few days during denning season an that REALLY opened my mind to how coyotes re-act. i learned a great deal in a small amount of time. after i got home i went out denning myself to further what i learned. i chose areas that had a shit-load of coyotes and knew many ranchers in the areas. they we're very happy to allow me in and try. i struggled abit at first but got more proficient as the summer went on. long story short, i took 8 LONG trips last spring/summer and feal i learned more about coyotes in that time than all my year combined. last years fur season i shot more coyotes than i EVER dreamed was possible and i believe it was from the summer training. yes, i did take some pups on request from the ranchers but no, i got no thrill out of it other than knowing i was helping out with a population problem. i would absolutely love to be out on the prairie right now but with the new cabin and gas $$'s i will most likely skip this Year.
Posts: 1049 | From: minnifornia | Registered: Jan 2010
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Rich Higgins
unknown comic
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posted May 30, 2011 02:30 PM
Bearhunter,
I tried to make clear that my beliefs concerned AZ coyotes.
As I stated "offending coyotes must be removed".
That includes overpopulated areas, ranches in any state with a predation problem, any area with coyote problems any time of year.
That is my opinion and belief only and I will not debate it with you or anyone else.
The purpose of the threads I am posting this weekend is to clear up old misunderstandings.
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fgf4
unknown comic
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posted May 30, 2011 02:48 PM
quote:
Vic Carlson, Cal Taylor and I would participate in these flame wars and we became very good at pointing out the lack of logic and morality in some of the most abusive and emotional posts. We did not make many friends doing so.
I think you made more friends than you think doing that Rich... many believe as you do that decency is also part of ethical hunting practises. Anything less is just bloodlust and killing.
I do have my personal thoughts on regulation given my home states reputation for irrational legalities and you have clearly stated you do not wish to, and will not debate this here.
I hope others will agree with you as do I!
Nikonut
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the bearhunter
HM PROSTAFF & MIDWEST REGIONAL GURU VOTED MOST HANDSOME MINNESOTAN
Member # 3552
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posted May 30, 2011 02:54 PM
sorry Rich. i should have read your post better.
Posts: 1049 | From: minnifornia | Registered: Jan 2010
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TA17Rem
Hello, I'm the legendary Tim Anderson, Field Marshall, Southern Minneesota Sector
Member # 794
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posted May 30, 2011 03:35 PM
Bear you mentioned you did youre denning out west.. If you did it at home what do you think hunting wouldbe like the following year and year after?? Do you think youre numbers would stay the same or drop? Say the numbers do take a drop, how much fun would hunting be then???
As a fur harvester I like to see good numbers every year, makes hunting and calling that much more fun and educational and it puts a little more coin in the pocket to help pay for gas or ammo...
A few years ago the fur prices for the coyotes in the area I do most of my calling reached a 45.00 avr., now if I would of been out there denning dureing the summer my winter fur check is'nt going to be very big is it now????
A female coyote has roughly 6-8 pups and say 5 of them make it to winter that still leaves some good money to be had vrs. none at all..
Since you are a contest hunter would'nt it also be wise to leave them till a contest comes up?? increase youre chances of winning don't you think!!
As for recreational control work just killing the coyotes that are there is not going to make the problem go away if you don't kill the ones doing the killing to begin with also by mid summer the cows and calves can takecare of themselves so all you are doing is lessoning youre chances to some high kill numbers when the fur is worth something or a contest is going on.. Later...
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What if I told you, the left wing and right wing both belong to same bird!
Posts: 5065 | From: S.D. | Registered: Jan 2006
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George Ackley
Knows what it's all about
Member # 898
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posted May 30, 2011 03:35 PM
i dont shoot pups but,
you said ethical hunting practises ![[Frown]](frown.gif)
your ethical hunting practices are yours, if they ant braking the law keep you ethics to your self.
the predator hunting threads aren't there so we can all here your ethics they are here for hunting and if somone is hunting legally then you shouldn't have anything to say. don't reply to them. start your own ethics thread in the proper area and tell us your ethics don't push them on people taken part in a legal hunt ,
just not right!
there is no one in the predator community I admire more then Rich Higgins!
but I have always thought he was stepping across the line in the threads about shooting wets and pups , i don't do it for the same reason as him but that's me i and telling someone ells they shouldn't do it if its legal in there area
[ May 30, 2011, 03:39 PM: Message edited by: George Ackley ]
Posts: 465 | From: PHILA . PA | Registered: Jul 2006
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fgf4
unknown comic
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posted May 30, 2011 03:47 PM
George, if that was pointed at me... you are right.
If it's legal than it's a personal choice. I would never deny tha right of anyone to hunt as they wish if it's legal in their state or area.
Almost every law that is against hunting is usually caused as a reaction to unethical hunting practises... think about it.
I hold myself to a higher standard and only wish more would. To me an unethical hunter is nothing more than a bloodthisty killer and not someone I would care to associate with in the field or in life.
Nikonut
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Dave Allen
Hi, I'm SUPER DAVE, IN CHARGE OF Q STUFF (and Goat Leader) "I'm really not trying to be a dick".
Member # 3102
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posted May 30, 2011 03:49 PM
Quote from Higgins,
Vic Carlson, Cal Taylor and I would participate in these flame wars and we became very good at pointing out the lack of logic and morality in some of the most abusive and emotional posts. We did not make many friends doing so.
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As Niko indicated, you, Vic and Cal, might be surprised..
Posts: 1986 | From: Jordan Valley Oregon | Registered: Aug 2008
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TA17Rem
Hello, I'm the legendary Tim Anderson, Field Marshall, Southern Minneesota Sector
Member # 794
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posted May 30, 2011 03:50 PM
4949 its just like the unwritten code you have with other cops... Its all about honor and respect for the game you hunt and as being a hunter, some states have a season on bucks and does which makes it legal but yet there is still a group of hunters that will not shoot a doe or shoot a female bear with cubs along side, why should wet bitches and pups be any different????
I know some guys that don't like deer or deer hunting, maybe there should be a spring season for them to shoot deer and just take a few pic.s and leave them lay..
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What if I told you, the left wing and right wing both belong to same bird!
Posts: 5065 | From: S.D. | Registered: Jan 2006
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Rich
2,000th post PAKMAN
Member # 112
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posted May 30, 2011 04:05 PM
"I hold myself to a higher standard and only wish more would. To me an unethical hunter is nothing more than a bloodthisty killer and not someone I would care to associate with in the field or in life."
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Nickle nut,
Maybe you are making more enemies than you think. I hope that this thread stays here where all can see who the anti's are. I don't think that the ADC men spare any wet bitches when shooting coyotes from airplanes or helicopters, so I guess according to you and Higgins, those guys are just blood thirsty killers? Get real!
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If you call the coyotes in close, you won't NEED a high dollar range finder.
Posts: 2854 | From: Iowa | Registered: Feb 2003
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the bearhunter
HM PROSTAFF & MIDWEST REGIONAL GURU VOTED MOST HANDSOME MINNESOTAN
Member # 3552
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posted May 30, 2011 04:10 PM
Tim. where i live i have very poor coyote hunting. i also want them ALL gone. i want red fox back here. as to contest, i feel thats why i did quite well this past tournament season is because i spent time out the in the summer and knew (learnt) the areas well. i would say my average days this past winter was seing 20-25 a day so i don't think i damaged them to much last summer.
Posts: 1049 | From: minnifornia | Registered: Jan 2010
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George Ackley
Knows what it's all about
Member # 898
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posted May 30, 2011 04:12 PM
niko,
no enemies pal, and sorry it looks that way
it wasn't pointed at you directly.
in fact I was working on my reply about Rich H and when I cam back to post thats is when i seen you posted already, so i cut my reply short just to say what I thought.
I dont have the same felling about this as mr cronk. i dont think anyone should be shooting wets and pups.
[ May 30, 2011, 04:19 PM: Message edited by: George Ackley ]
Posts: 465 | From: PHILA . PA | Registered: Jul 2006
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Rich Higgins
unknown comic
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posted May 30, 2011 04:30 PM
Cronk is still unable to differentiate between the killing of puppies for fun by recreational callers and the killing of puppies in the line of duty by professional ADC or anyone who assumes that role on a legitimate depredation job.
I do not know a single one of those guys that enjoy that part of the job.
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Dan Carey
unknown comic
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posted May 30, 2011 04:36 PM
The only reason there is to date not a season/bag limit on coyotes is, the mad dog crazed blood lust killers are so inept they are not a threat to the coyotes existence. Anyone that would kill a puppy would also eat shit.
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CrossJ
SECOND PLACE: PAUL RYAN Look-a-like contest
Member # 884
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posted May 30, 2011 04:38 PM
Rich C, I don't know about Iowa, but here they don't aerial gun during the denning season. I'm no adc man, but it would seem to me that doing so during the denning season would be a wasted asset. In other words, that time frame would be better suited to a set of dogs used specifically for that purpose. Recreational calling and ADC are two totally different things.
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A friend will help you move. A good friend will help you move a body.
Posts: 1025 | From: on a water tower | Registered: Jul 2006
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TA17Rem
Hello, I'm the legendary Tim Anderson, Field Marshall, Southern Minneesota Sector
Member # 794
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posted May 30, 2011 04:45 PM
quote:
Maybe you are making more enemies than you think. I hope that this thread stays here where all can see who the anti's are. I don't think that the ADC men spare any wet bitches when shooting coyotes from airplanes or helicopters, so I guess according to you and Higgins, those guys are just blood thirsty killers?
Just because Niko and a few others don't agree with killing wet bitches and pups dose'nt make them a anti, they still enjoy hunting them as the next, just don't agree on the time of year its done..
The ADC trappers are doing control work that has to be done,wanna be ADC callers are not going to be there 24/7 to get the job done the way it should be.
Speaking of Anti's what really burns there ass and also gives us as hunters a bad name is the ones that do choose to hunt year round and then post there hero shots with a handfull of pups scattered on the ground.. Cleavor Gary was good for that and one of the reasons I dislike the man.. Sure Anti's want to do away with most if not all hunting but you also need to realize alot of people don't mind a few dead coyotes but when the anti's start flashing the dead pup and wet bitch pic.s that they find laying around on varis sites this really plays on a persons emotions and can sway them to there way of thinking...
I don't always agree with Niko but will hang with him on this one..
Edit to add.
Coyotes shouldbe controlled where it needs to be done and should be managed where they don't have to be controlled.
[ May 30, 2011, 04:50 PM: Message edited by: TA17Rem ]
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What if I told you, the left wing and right wing both belong to same bird!
Posts: 5065 | From: S.D. | Registered: Jan 2006
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Dan Carey
unknown comic
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posted May 30, 2011 04:52 PM
"Cleavor Gary was good for that and one of the reasons I dislike the man.."
You dislike him because he is a coyote killing machine and you wouldn't make a pimple on his ass.
You misspelled clever, you know as in mentally quick and resourceful, which you are also not.
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the bearhunter
HM PROSTAFF & MIDWEST REGIONAL GURU VOTED MOST HANDSOME MINNESOTAN
Member # 3552
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posted May 30, 2011 04:56 PM
Dan. never eaten shat but have taken a few pups.
i'm glad i did it but not glad i did it if that makes sense???
Posts: 1049 | From: minnifornia | Registered: Jan 2010
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Rich Higgins
unknown comic
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posted May 30, 2011 04:56 PM
quote:
Cleavor Gary was good for that and one of the reasons I dislike the man..
Tim, do you have reason to believe that that you can share?
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csmithers
unknown comic
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posted May 30, 2011 04:59 PM
It's a tough issue. ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
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TA17Rem
Hello, I'm the legendary Tim Anderson, Field Marshall, Southern Minneesota Sector
Member # 794
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posted May 30, 2011 05:00 PM
quote:
You dislike him because he is a coyote killing machine and you wouldn't make a pimple on his ass.
If killing pups makes him a coyote killing machine then i guess I'm not..
Send his killing machine ass up to one of the sheep producers ranches in Wyoming and lets see how well he does. ![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
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What if I told you, the left wing and right wing both belong to same bird!
Posts: 5065 | From: S.D. | Registered: Jan 2006
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TA17Rem
Hello, I'm the legendary Tim Anderson, Field Marshall, Southern Minneesota Sector
Member # 794
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posted May 30, 2011 05:04 PM
Rich. If you ask Gary I'm sure he still has the pic.s from his trip to Utah that he posted on a handfull of sites.. I think (lost boys)and a few others know which ones I'm talking about..
Edit to add: thats just part of the reason I dislike him, the rest has to do with the shit he pulled at one of the camp-outs...
[ May 30, 2011, 08:26 PM: Message edited by: TA17Rem ]
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What if I told you, the left wing and right wing both belong to same bird!
Posts: 5065 | From: S.D. | Registered: Jan 2006
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CrossJ
SECOND PLACE: PAUL RYAN Look-a-like contest
Member # 884
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posted May 30, 2011 06:23 PM
Tim, I do not know what pics you are talking about, and I will ask you politely to not speak for me.
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A friend will help you move. A good friend will help you move a body.
Posts: 1025 | From: on a water tower | Registered: Jul 2006
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TOM64
Knows what it's all about
Member # 561
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posted May 30, 2011 06:24 PM
Always a hot topic...
As one who went and made 3 stands today, it's also about respect to the landowner. I told the guy who lost the foal, I thought it was still born due to what Cal, Cdog and others said about the birth sack. He wants em killed regardless.
Same as for the other rancher, he wants em gone.
Now I have other places to hunt but I don't, I actually side with the "let em raise their pups" crowd and for the most part will abide by that but as Rich H stated thinning and predation are different from posting hero shots just because you can.
But with the shape our economy is in, if we give the wildlife departments authority to regulate coyotes, how long till a fubearer tag will be needed as well? Especially as popular as the "sport" is these days. Put me in the anti season category. Education is the key.
Posts: 2283 | From: okieland | Registered: Feb 2005
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