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Author
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Topic: Best Coyote Vocalizations
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Jrbhunter
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Member # 459
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posted October 13, 2005 07:19 AM
What do you think are the most productive coyote sounds from the list provided below? I'm looking to pull about 7 or 8 from this list, which ones would be best?
1. Coyote adult distress
2. Coyote adult female communicative howls
3. Coyote adult female eastern territorial call
4. Coyote young female howls
5. Coyote adults fighting over food
6. Coyote adult growls
7. Coyote adult hunting whines
8. Coyote adult beta male challenge call
9. Coyote adult male challenge howls
10. Coyote adult male territorial
11. Coyote adult male territorial aggressive
12. Coyote adult male and female territorial
13. Coyote adult dominant male
14. Coyote adult dominant male rally howl
15. Coyote adult dominant male group rally howl
16. Coyote adult male challenge duet
17. Coyote adult pair aggressive
18. Coyote adult male communicative howl
19. Coyote adult male and female howling
20. Coyote pup distress 3 weeks old
21. Coyote pup distress 10 weeks old
22. Coyote pup distress growls 8 weeks old
23. Coyote pups howling 5 months old
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Dogleg
Knows what it's all about
Member # 662
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posted October 13, 2005 12:09 PM
Jrbhunter,
1,3,5,8,10,11 and 21. Ya gotta have 21 ![[Wink]](wink.gif)
[ October 13, 2005, 12:11 PM: Message edited by: Dogleg ]
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted October 13, 2005 12:39 PM
I'm sure we will get some questions about these "labels"?
#3-5-21
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 31449 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
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Rich Higgins
unknown comic
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posted October 13, 2005 02:02 PM
These are always fun.
J, I would guess that you got this list from a commercial call website? Probably WT? The names are obviously contrived as a marketing ploy. Must be Bill Martz. ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif) Let me ask you a few questions before I give you my opinion.
1. #2 confuses me. Since all howls are communicative by definition, was there a Coyote adult female uncommunicative howl?
2. #3 , since most lone howls are universal vocalizations does he list a coyote adult female WESTERN territorial howl?
3. #4, what are the young females communicating?
4. #8 and #9, what is the difference between an adult beta male challence call and an adult male challenge howl since beta males are adult coyotes.(past season pups are termed juveniles until after Jan when they become adults)
5. #10 and #11 have me stumped. Yip-howls are territorial declarations and serve as passive defense. They still should be regarded as aggressive. So what the hey is #11?
6. #12, is this a typical group yip-howl?
7. #13 what is this sound? Belch and a fart?
8. OK, #14 is probably a standard assembly howl. What the heck is #15? a group of males howling assembly? Where were the females?
9. #16 is this two males challenging anoher or two males challanging each other?
10. #17 wow, 2 of them being aggressive. What? Threat bark-howls, warning barks, yip-howls?
11. #18, see #2
12. #19, as specific as he has been regarding the other types of howls,
this one seems kinda generic.
13. #23, this one is also generic. What are the 5 month olds howling about? A five month old (oct.) still has juvenile features but it's behavior is typical coyote including it's vocalizations. What kind of howl?
My best guess is this list is from Wildlife Technologies. Perhaps Bill will be kind enough to drop in and join the discussion?
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CBGC
Knows what it's all about
Member # 643
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posted October 13, 2005 02:19 PM
To many sounds for me to remember how to make. I ll stick with the 4 or 5 I know and sometimes I am not to sure what they mean but they work. Mr. Higgins U have a way with words!
[ October 13, 2005, 02:22 PM: Message edited by: CBGC ]
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Save a Deer Shoot a Road Hunter!
http://www.CritterBuster.com
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Cdog911
"There are some ideas so absurd only an intellectual could believe them."--George Orwell.
Member # 7
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posted October 13, 2005 04:07 PM
Probably came with an italicized discalimer that states, "Although many of the sounds produced and offered by Company * sound to be similar if not identical, the coyotes recognize differences between them that are not apparant to you." or something like that. In this way, you can spend five times as much to get the same product.
As I see it, all you need is lone howl, yip howl, ki-yi, bark, lost puppy howl, bark howl challenge.
In the lone howl genre, I can splinter off to your basic lone howl, versus your female invitation howl. I can barely tell the difference, but the guys that go with me sure are impressed. ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
I've yet to get enough wind to recreate the sound of two or three different coyotes yipping and howling with just my one howler. ![[Frown]](frown.gif) I almost did once, but I passed out midway thru and still don't know if anything came in. Then again, my shoulder was wet and I could smell the subtle aroma of coyote pee when I regained consciousness. Don't know if there was a connection.
Ki-yi's fall into three different categories: adult coyote distress, pup distress (high), and freakin' really high puppy distress (leaves your boxers all caught up in your undercarriage kinda high). ![[Eek!]](eek.gif)
Lost puppy howl... that one's a secret.
And, challenge bark... well, don't need it very often but it's nice to have when you do. Don't see much need for more than one kind.
The rest of it just seems to be a good way to call your cash out of your wallet. Must work.
[ October 13, 2005, 05:06 PM: Message edited by: Cdog911 ]
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I am only one. But still, I am one. I cannot do everything, but still, I can do something; and, because I cannot do everything, I will not refuse to do something that I can do.
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Rich
2,000th post PAKMAN
Member # 112
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posted October 13, 2005 05:15 PM
Rich Higgins,
I absolutely hate it when you skirt around an issue that way. You can go ahead and tell us what you really think.
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If you call the coyotes in close, you won't NEED a high dollar range finder.
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Jrbhunter
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posted October 13, 2005 05:54 PM
I thought it was a fairly simple question Rich... if you have a problem with Bill or the WT I can send you a link to his site so you can contact him instead of cluttering up another legitimate thread on Leonards site. ![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
Thanks for the info guys, keep it coming. Dogleg those are almost the exact ones I had picked out! What is it they say about great minds??? I forget.
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Tim Behle
Administrator MacNeal Sector
Member # 209
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posted October 13, 2005 06:07 PM
Jason,
Believe it or not, the Professor just gave you the best advice you are going to get.
The secret isn't in how much money you spend, it's in how much time you spend.
A buddy of mine is a plain flat broke Mexican, who doesn't have two nickels to rub together most days. His Camo consists of an old burlap feed sack he puts on his head and shoulders when calling. I gave him a roll of black tape a couple of years ago to put his broken mouthcall back together, he's still using it. Someone gave him a .223 a couple of years ago, but most days' it's either in the pawn shop, or he can't afford the ammo, so he shoots his 100+ coyotes a winter by calling them in close and shooting them in the head with a .22 long rifle.
It's not about what sounds you use, it's more about how often you make a sound.
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Personally, I carry a gun because I'm too young to die and too old to take
an ass kickin'.
Posts: 3160 | From: Five Miles East of Vic, AZ | Registered: Jun 2003
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Rich Higgins
unknown comic
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posted October 13, 2005 06:50 PM
Jr, I don't have a problem at all with Bill or his terrific e-caller. He is always entertaining and really livens a thread.
IF someone were to read my thread objectively, one should surmise that the questions I ask about specifically named howls were designed to make that person think and question the legitimate application of that specific vocalization. Is it any better or even different than any of the other 18 lone howls listed, or just a marketing ploy, REGARDLESS who is the vendor. The biologists (Barret, Jaeger, and Mitchell) that conduct discriminate analysis of spectagraphs of recordings of lone howls have determined that information is transmitted through high and low frequencies and their location within the fundamental harmonic. Amplitude, frequency, and emotional content change the meaning as well. As complex as the "language" is I cannot know what any but a very few lone howls mean and seriously doubt that any marketer can either. None of the biologists can.
My intention was to impress that fact upon you and then suggest the vocalizations that I know will work and why. I'll leave that to Rich Cronk.
I don't know what your problem with me is, but this is your legitimate thread and I won't clutter it further.
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted October 13, 2005 08:04 PM
Here's the thing, jrb. There is a long time debate about coyote vocalizations and how to interpret them, and whether some may be specific, and others are just individual differences. Some people call a "lone howl" a female invitation, stuff like that. Also, there has been a lot of discusion about the exact number of identifiable sounds. Some people claim there are only about 14 that we UNDERSTAND what they mean, and others claim there are twice that many. However, it is seldom that you would need more than four or five, just to hunt coyotes.
Also, Bill Martz is very controversial. He says a lot of things that either can't be proved, or gets rude, rather than engaging in a cordial discussion; therefore, people such as Rich do, and says things to try and pin him down. But, Rich is far from the only one to take issue with some of Bill's pronouncements.
But, I am positive that Higgins doesn't have any problem with you, as an individual. I think you took him wrong, he is strictly responding to the WT theories. Believe me, he is not the only one that thinks Bill is like a kamikaze; he likes to dive into a hail of bullets and then crash on deck.
He stimulates a lot of discussion, though!
Good hunting. LB
[ October 13, 2005, 08:07 PM: Message edited by: Leonard ]
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 31449 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
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Dogleg
Knows what it's all about
Member # 662
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posted October 13, 2005 09:05 PM
Jrbhunter,
Those are the sounds that I use the most, along with a few prey sounds. Exactly what they mean doesn't make a lot of difference to me, but I do know what the end result has been; a lot of dead coyotes.Thats all I need to, or care to know.
Dogleg
Posts: 30 | From: Saskatoon, Saskatchewan | Registered: Jun 2005
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Bill Martz
Knows what it's all about
Member # 378
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posted October 14, 2005 03:56 AM
Leonard
You are the same man that said there are no 60
pound coyotes, correct? I believe you also laughed and mocked a man that was holding up a
66 pound coyote in a photograph, correct? Just
think, you said and believed these things just 4
years ago. Well, I quess you were wrong. Right
Leonard. You also stated that while hunting one
day you called in 11 coyotes at 1 stand and all of them approached in single file. Really Leonard. You also contend that you can call more coyotes with a mouth call then you could with an electronic caller. I don't know if you know this or not Leonard, but in the state of CA where you live all of the USDA federal trappers, their managers and the states county trappers (approx. 93 trappers) use the WT wildlife caller. Why do you think they spent $900 per caller and threw away their $10 mouth calls? By the way, their coyote harvest has risen dramatically since they have been using our equip. I can also remember when the term "howling" was not part of your vocabulary.
Mr. Higgins said the following:
"IF someone were to read my thread objectively, one should surmise that the questions I ask about
specifically named howls were designed to make
that person think and question the legitimate
application of that specific vocalization. Is it any better or even different than any of the other 18 lone howls listed, or just a marketing ploy, REGARDLESS who is the vendor."
As I understand it Higgins, you have been hunting
coyotes for a very long time. I don't want to hurt your feelings but it has been long documented that animals, which includes coyotes, don't possess the ability to structure logic which in turn means that they have no ability to communicate in a logical structured manner. Don't you guys have a library out there?
Mr. Higgins also said:
"The biologists (Barret, Jaeger, and Mitchell) that conduct discriminate analysis of spectagraphs of recordings of lone howls have determined that information is transmitted through high and low frequencies and their location within the fundamental harmonic. Amplitude, frequency, and emotional content change the meaning as well. As complex as the "language" is I cannot know what any but a very few lone howls mean and seriously doubt that any marketer can either. None of the biologists can."
I guess you friend Mr. Jaeger doesn't like you
very much because he never posts here. Or
maybe he is just to busy downloading the GPS
tracking data and plotting the info. By the way, the tracking data is automatically intergrated with a map grid. So all you have to do is download the data and print it out which takes about 10 minutes. Maybe he doesn't have a printer.
Higgins, don't you ever get tired of copying and
pasting other peoples scientific data? The biologist's or your description of frequency
components as it relates to coyote vocalizations is absolutely rubbish. After 17 years of so called "research" they have learned nothing except how to write better grant papers to suck more money out of us. The only thing that a coyote vocalization represents is a level of aggressiveness. Some are less agressive and some are more aggresive. Enough free info for the mentally impaired. I also find it amusing that you would lower yourself to kiss the bottom of a government "biologist" just you you could pay your own way to some distant location just to demonstrate your ability with a $10 party favor. You don't actually believe that you can emulate a real coyote vocalization with a 50 cent plastic reed, do you? If you think you can Rich, knowing that animal vocalizations are at least 30 times more complex then the human voice, let me hear you blow the human word "the" out of your mouth call. Rich, I know a lot of people and I just want you to know that I know what a complete failure your trip was. Maybe you will get lucky the next time. This also might be of interest to you. I have an open invitation to the Logan, UT research facility. But you know what Rich? I never will go because there is nothing that I can learn there although they would like to pick my brain. Also I don't record caged coyotes.
Just one more issue Rich. I heard you drove all
the way to PA to call and video an eastern coyote. I also heard that the fellow you went to see was Tom Bechtel. You know good old Tom. The
biggest liar in the East. He told me once that he
called about 300 eastern coyotes a year and 150
red fox. He then told me that he also gives 100
seminars a year with each seminar taking up about 3 days of his time. You do the math. After I
informed good old Tom to whom he was speaking
with, the subject changed to, "well I have to say
these things because I work for GS and we have
to sell callers". He then asked me for a job
because he said GS was going out of business.
What a man that Tom is. And just think Rich, you
drove all the way to PA to hunt coyotes with him. I guess you don't know how to do your homework
correctly Rich. But if I remember Rich, you said
that Tom killed an eastern coyote with his car.
WOW. Next time you want to try an call an eastern coyote Rich give me a call. I will help you
out. Lastly, there is a reason that the government creates those "give a dummy a job" programs in the West and not in the East. They are less visible there.
One more issue Rich. You possess neither the
experience or skill to evaluate any coyote dvd. In fact I don't think you are qualified to review a Three Stooges short. Rich, we film coyote videos in the North and the East. In fact we are the only company in this business that has the expertise to call and film coyotes in the North and East. Where do you video yours?
I forgot to mention Mr Cronk. Mr. Cronk called me
one day and asked me to give him a tutorial on
coyote vocalizations. Low and behold, the next
day Mr. Cronk was posting his expertise on coyote vocalizations on various hunting boards.
Can you imagine, he didn't even acknowledge where he got that info from. Just can't trust these
internet coyote experts.
Bill Martz.
I got a name and you know where to find me. I don't hide under rocks.
[ October 14, 2005, 03:59 AM: Message edited by: Bill Martz ]
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Bill Martz
www.wildlifetech.com
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Jrbhunter
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posted October 14, 2005 05:28 AM
Let me clarify my stance here.
I didn't ask for a political attack on a company or a calling stratagy. I didn't ask for a lecture on how to spend my paycheck. I didn't ask for a coyote hunters psychiatric opinion of another coyote hunter. I wanted to hear what sounds some of you experienced callers thought would work from that list.
If I wanted to hear all that other BS I'd just take this thread to Predator Masters or something where internet experts are abundant and experience is equivelant to the # of post next to your name. If anyone, and I mean anyone, has an opinion on which 10 sounds would suit me best for calling coyotes in the Midwest I'd appreciate hearing them.
Tim, I'm not looking for a miracle secret that will lessen the need for time in the woods or research in the offseason. I'm looking for the best 10 sounds from the list posted above so I can order the calling unit of my choice. I've been lucky enought to call 8 coyotes and 2 gray fox in the last two weeks with a Ridgeviewer hand call... if there's one "secret" I've found thus far it's that a good custom call can improve a guys actual CALLING ability emmensley.
Rich I have no problem with you and never have. The only other time we have had a conflict was very similar to this... I asked a simple question and you got derailed on some sort of personal agenda or comical attack tangent. Please don't read more into a thread than there is... I'm not trying to be complex here... lord knows there are all sorts of opinions about callers, sounds, businesses and EAST vs. WEST!!!
As for any arrogance you may pull from my post, I just think it's a little sad when a guy begins to regret posting a predator calling question on a predator calling website.
Posts: 615 | From: Indiana | Registered: Dec 2004
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Tim Behle
Administrator MacNeal Sector
Member # 209
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posted October 14, 2005 05:55 AM
OK, Let me see if I can't stick to the subject at hand.
Of the sounds you listed, I would choose :
Maybe 1 and 21. It's always nice to have some sort of distressed coyote sound available.
I believe that coyote vocalizations are way over rated for their ability to call coyotes.
I think in the fall of the year, you can actually do more harm than good by howling.
If I was going to pick sounds for a new caller, I'd load up on rabbit, bird and maybe a few cat sounds. But would limit myself to only one coyote vocalization and one deer bleat.
Look at the location where you are hunting in. That coyote is only going to get laid once a year, right at the end of your season. But he is going to want to eat nearly every day. Use sounds that are going to appeal to him on a daily basis.
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Personally, I carry a gun because I'm too young to die and too old to take
an ass kickin'.
Posts: 3160 | From: Five Miles East of Vic, AZ | Registered: Jun 2003
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keekee
Knows what it's all about
Member # 465
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posted October 14, 2005 05:55 AM
Mr Martz,
I would like to ask you a few questions if I may.
First, if you have an Eastern video or footage then were is it???? These guys here in the East have been screaming for it! So, were is it? You said it not me! Now back it up! I will film you here in the East when ever your ready. You set the time and date and we will get this all worked out.
And if you can help me call more Eastern coyotes then here is your chance! Lets see it! Im in Ohio and welcome you to come make me a better coyote caller. So, when will you be here? Or when can I expect to get all this help?
JRB,
"If I wanted to hear all that other BS I'd just take this thread to Predator Masters or something where internet experts are abundant and experience is equivelant to the # of post next to your name"
Thanks! I will remember that! Take your shots when you can get them I gess, eh?
Brent
[ October 14, 2005, 05:59 AM: Message edited by: keekee ]
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Kee's Custom Calls
http://www.keescalls.com
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Rich
2,000th post PAKMAN
Member # 112
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posted October 14, 2005 06:27 AM
Bill Martz,
I guess that I should have recorded that phone call that I made to you. I did not ask you for a tutorial on coyote vocalization, nor did you give me one. I guess you are even a bigger lier than old Bitchdel huh? I called you to say that your DVD was a good one. Your ballooned up ego would not allow you to listen to anything I had to say. You were too busy filling my ears with your opinions. You taught me nothing at all about coyote vocalizations Bill. I have told many people on these boards that the WT caller was the best caller available, and I have also told them that I agree with your opinion that coyote vocalizations are nothing more than different levels of aggression. The coyotes have taught me a lot about their language, or rather the lack of it. Real hunters like Murry Burnham, Monte Dodson,
Scott Huber, and Cal Taylor have forgotten more about coyotes than you will ever begin to learn. I have no need to prove anything to anyone, and I certainly have no need to lie to anyone about where I learned how to call coyotes. You Bill, are a legend in your own mind. I guess that you are happy there. I had a little bit of respect for you before you told your lies about me in this thread. Go waller around in your own bed of lies Bill, I mean you made your bed so go sleep in it pardner.
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If you call the coyotes in close, you won't NEED a high dollar range finder.
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Jrbhunter
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posted October 14, 2005 06:35 AM
Thanks for the reply Tim, I have 24 sounds to pick out... 17 I've locked down are all distress or ambient sounds. I have a couple more distress sounds that I am fond of and am waiting to see how many coyote vocalizations I really want before adding them to the list. I may get 3 coyote vocalizations, may get 7, or anywhere in between... that's kind of what I'm hoping to pin down with the opinions here by seeing which ones are consistantly productive for other guys.
Brent, I don't know what you mean by your post. I wasn't taking shots at you, why would I do that and why would you think it? Why would you remember my statement? I'm clueless... if you're ticked about PM getting slammed perhaps you should look through the threads and see how often HM get's slammed over there. Do you own PM? Do they pay you? Why so much concern?
P.S. You may want to tone down your rants on Bill though... I've got his video and yes it's filmed in the east and northeast. You can get a copy from his website just like I did. No cactus were harmed in the making of that 3 hour DVD.
Posts: 615 | From: Indiana | Registered: Dec 2004
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Rich Higgins
unknown comic
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posted October 14, 2005 06:54 AM
Hi Bill, always good to have you drop by. I would like to take this opportunity to ask you if you would allow me to interview you on video?
Now that you are here perhaps you would address the specific questions in my post regarding the differences between all the various lone howls that you sell for your caller? Please? I'm always interested in the opinions of a non-caller who believes that coyotes fight for a living.
BTW, I flew to Pa.
Tim, good info, good reasoning.
KeeKee, Bill did produce a video about the Eastern coyote, "A Coyote Tutorial". It's well done production.
Jr, you need very few coyote vocalizations. To attract the most coyotes you should avoid the aggressive sounds.
My first choice would be #20.
Followed by
#21 (probably more volume}
#2 (probably the least aggressive of the listed howls)
#5 (when you need to stop a coyote or rivet their attention, this will do it)
#8 & 9 will be useful only under specific conditions but would be very good to have then.
If you have a large number of sounds to download pick at random since they are all curiosity draws to resident coyotes and experiment with them. Some may work better for you at different seasons than others.
Good luck
End of clutter.
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Greenside
seems to know what he is talking about
Member # 10
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posted October 14, 2005 07:18 AM
Jason
May I suggest that you give Steve an e-mail and get his opinion? He's familiar with IN. More than likely he'll help you out, but you might have to take an oath of secrecy.
Dennis
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TheHuntedOne
Knows what it's all about
Member # 623
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posted October 14, 2005 07:45 AM
quote:
If I wanted to hear all that other BS I'd just take this thread to Predator Masters or something where internet experts are abundant and experience is equivelant to the # of post next to your name
I guess I wonder why a guy who started and runs his own Predator Hunting board would come here and ask these questions instead of on his own board.
Al
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The On Line Resource For Custom Call Makers
THO Game Calls
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Jrbhunter
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posted October 14, 2005 08:05 AM
Thanks for the info Rich, I may lean more toward those distress sounds after all. One of the things I like about the sound library is how unique some of the offerings are... nice to have something on a remote that Billy Bob hasn't played on his JS612 every night for the past week.
THO, I posted my question here for the opinions of folks like Rich Higgins, Tim Behle, Leonard and others who do not visit my board but are respected and seasoned veterans in the art of calling coyotes. And yes, it is on my site as well where other great guys like Rich, Dennis and Steve have already given me their opinions.
And yes Dennis, Steve's were in private! LOL!
[ October 14, 2005, 08:08 AM: Message edited by: Jrbhunter ]
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TheHuntedOne
Knows what it's all about
Member # 623
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posted October 14, 2005 08:35 AM
Thanks for the update JRB, I did see the post and the three replies you got on your site. I was just wondering if there was some corelation between the way you felt about Pm and your site since you posted the question here.
Thanks for clearing that up.
Good hunting
AL
THO Game Calls
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The On Line Resource For Custom Call Makers
THO Game Calls
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Jrbhunter
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posted October 14, 2005 08:41 AM
Care to comment on the subject at hand THO?
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TheHuntedOne
Knows what it's all about
Member # 623
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posted October 14, 2005 08:52 AM
No JRB, I am here to learn. I have to admit that I do not do much howing for coyotes. I like to use my distress calls, and have good luck with them. However, it is a fascinating subject. One is never too old to learn new things. That is the best part about maturity, it helps one become able to weed out the BS from the from the substance. The thread has been informative, the crack about PM however, was childish. It just led me to wonder if you felt the same way about the people who visit your site, the ones with all the post numbers next to their names.
Al
THO Game Calls
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The On Line Resource For Custom Call Makers
THO Game Calls
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