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Author
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Topic: Any opinions?
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted May 12, 2006 05:20 PM
I was talking to my daughter about the time she picked up a deer fawn and took it to the Vet.
She said it died enroute.
She said it was DROPPED BY A LARGE BLACK OWL, twenty feet on to the road, right in front of her.
I said I didn't think an owl, like a great horned owl, could be described as "black"? Furthermore, I didn't think an owl was capable of actually flying with a fawn. I suggested a golden eagle. She said several people in the neighborhood had seen a large black owl, and that is what she thinks she saw?
So, is this possible? If not, I need other possibilities. What do you think?
Good hunting. LB
edit: I know they have turkey vultures (black) in that part of Marin, but again, I don't think they are powerful enough to fly with a deer fawn?
[ May 12, 2006, 05:23 PM: Message edited by: Leonard ]
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
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Cdog911
"There are some ideas so absurd only an intellectual could believe them."--George Orwell.
Member # 7
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posted May 12, 2006 06:37 PM
I'd say a GHO could lift - maybe - 2-3#. Goldies have been known to go big enough to carry a newborn fawn. It would have to be a female as a male would be still too small (the eagle - not the fawn). Turkey vultures lack the grip of other raptors in their feet to grab prey as you describe. Could it have been a large Harris' Hawk? They're about as close to black as you're going to get in most birds of prey beyond an eagle. Or, do you have any migrating bald eagles in that part of the country? We still have a few stragglers here in Kansas left over from the Feb migration that have chosen to stay and nest.
On a positive, my Mississippi Kites are arriving "home" this week. Saw five of them day before yesterday in a neighborhood where they've nested the past five years.
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I am only one. But still, I am one. I cannot do everything, but still, I can do something; and, because I cannot do everything, I will not refuse to do something that I can do.
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted May 12, 2006 07:34 PM
I'm really stumped on this. I assume she knows what she is talking about when she said that she actually saw a black bird drop the fawn right on the road, in front of her car. I can't think of any bird smaller than a golden eagle that would be capable of doing it? Okay, maybe a Harpi, but he would be lost or a zoo excapee, but I have seen those videos of one grabbing a monkey, so he's big enough and bold enough. He ain't black, though? But he has a crest that could resemble owl ears? I don't know? LB
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
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Locohead
World Famous Smoke Dancer
Member # 15
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posted May 12, 2006 07:36 PM
Cool story. My mom witnessed a goose that died in mid-flight. Fell right into the road, dead as a doorknob, right in front of her. Weird, man. ![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
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Kokopelli
SENIOR DISCOUNT & Dispenser of Sage Advice
Member # 633
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posted May 13, 2006 06:37 AM
Depending on the lighting, most anything could appear 'black' when silhouetted against the sky.
My guess would be a Golden Eagle.
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And lo, the Light of the Trump shown upon the Darkness and the Darkness could not comprehend it.
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JD
HONORARY OKIE .... and Tim's at fault!
Member # 768
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posted May 13, 2006 11:59 AM
At a glance the silhouettes would be similair but a Golden would SEEM more likely to carry off a fawn.
GOLDEN EAGLE
GREAT HORNED OWL
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Jason
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What do Obama & TA17Rem have in common........both are clueless asshats!!!
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Az-Hunter
Hi, I'm Vic WELCOME TO THE U.S. Free baloney sandwiches here
Member # 17
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posted May 13, 2006 12:49 PM
I doubt it could have been a horned owl? LIke lots of large birds, they look big, but feathers and hollow bones just don't weigh a hell of a lot. A mature owl might tip 3 pounds, out here a bit less. I don't know off hand the average weight of a newborn fawn, but it has to be more than 3 pounds?
Im sure there is a formula for what a bird can lift in conjunction to its weight? maybe half, who knows. A golden eagle is about the only bird I can think of that could possibly get something of 3-5 pounds airborne?
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted May 13, 2006 12:52 PM
I looked up horned owl, and that just doesn't seem likely? On the other hand, I saw the Great Gray owl, a bigger bird than the horned owl and much darker in appearance, 27".
Then I go to the Golden Eagle page and it says Length 37" and wingspan 86". A very dark appearing bird.
I don't see other possibilities? Owls hunt rodents, game birds. What I can't figure out is why several of these neighbors claim to have spotted a black owl hanging around. What feature identifies a bird as an owl? A large head?
Well, you know what they say about "eye witnesses"? Totally unreliable. LB
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
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Cdog911
"There are some ideas so absurd only an intellectual could believe them."--George Orwell.
Member # 7
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posted May 13, 2006 01:46 PM
For the most part, a bird has to fit the taxonomic criteria for an owl, being a member of either of two main familes, bubonidae or tytonidae, with barn owls being the only tytonid owl. Outwardly, they have big eyes and well pronounced eye discs for funneling light, just as you picture. They also have much better hearing than other birds of prey. To be an owl, they just have to be not a hawk, and not a falcon.
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I am only one. But still, I am one. I cannot do everything, but still, I can do something; and, because I cannot do everything, I will not refuse to do something that I can do.
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Tim Behle
Administrator MacNeal Sector
Member # 209
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posted May 13, 2006 05:35 PM
I always sorted them out by Owls fly at night.
But what's the difference between a hawk, Falcon or a Eagle?
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Personally, I carry a gun because I'm too young to die and too old to take
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted May 13, 2006 06:10 PM
As far as the California Fish and Game; NONE. They are all considered raptors, along with condors and vultures. That may be a loose classification, scientifically, but that's the way I read it....they are all protected, here. But, as I recall, owls have specially adapted feathers that allows them to fly silently. Ever notice how some game birds whistle when they flush, that is one of the more obvious differences. Lance mentioned the eyes, that's a prominent observable feature, besides the "ears", on most owls. Nightjars and poorwills are closely related, I think? Hook bills, as with parrots?
Until somebody comes up with a good alternative, I'm sticking with golden eagle. Even if it wasn't, it is a bird that could do it.
Good hunting. LB
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
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Buffalobob
Knows what it's all about
Member # 825
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posted May 14, 2006 05:23 AM
Sounds to me like a great horned owl tackled a little more than it could carry off. A 10 pound fawn would not appear much different from a cat or woodchuck to the owl but would be too much to carry very far.
Mule deer
At birth fawns are spotted and weigh approximately 2.5 kg.
Great horned owl
owl
Food and Feeding: The Great Horned Owl has such a long and diverse variety of prey that it would not be practical to list. It is a very opportunistic forager that generally chooses a perch and scans for prey although it will glide over areas where prey is likely to be, it will walk on the ground, and it has even been reported to wade into the water. Scarcely anything that moves is safe from this owl. It will eat prey as small as insects and scorpions or as large as domestic cats, woodchucks, geese, and Great Blue Herons. This owl's diverse diet may include small mammals to rabbits, birds, and reptiles to fish and amphibians. It will take carrion when the weather is bad. It has one of thee most powerful grips with its feet of any of the owls. It regularly preys on smaller owls and has been reported to attack and kill even Red-tailed Hawks. It has no predators and will eat anything from crayfish to young foxes.
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Cdog911
"There are some ideas so absurd only an intellectual could believe them."--George Orwell.
Member # 7
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posted May 14, 2006 09:07 AM
My "limited" experience with great horned owls tells me this was anything but a great horned owl. At an average 3# for males, and ~4# for females, even a newborn fawn would generally be as large, or larger, than an adult owl. If an owl were to be able to get airborne with prey this size, I doubt that they could sustain that flight plan for more than a foot or two, and most difinitely not to twenty feet up as Leonard's daughter estimated. I've observed them try to fly carrying part of an eastern cottontail rabbit and had a lot of trouble getting both feet off the ground.
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I am only one. But still, I am one. I cannot do everything, but still, I can do something; and, because I cannot do everything, I will not refuse to do something that I can do.
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Rich Higgins
unknown comic
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posted May 14, 2006 09:16 AM
Lance, we have a group of Harris hawks nesting near the house as well as a pair of GH owls. The Haris hawks are about the same size as the owls. I've seen the owls snatch a pigeon off the house and fly off with it. A Harris killed a cottontail in the front yard and couldn't get off the ground with it. My Pom ran it off the rabbit. I video'ed that. Saw a Kestral snag a dove, both hit the ground and the dove dragged the kestral a good twenty feet before giving it up.
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Cdog911
"There are some ideas so absurd only an intellectual could believe them."--George Orwell.
Member # 7
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posted May 14, 2006 09:27 AM
Rich,
Thanks. I've only seen one Harris and it was a female that had been manned and was on display at University of Florida in '86 at the Annual Raptor Research Foundation Conference. I thought I remembered her being a bit larger than a GHO, but I guess not. Either way, I don't see a GHO getting something the size of a cottontail off the ground. Now, a larger buteo, like a hawk of eagle, has the wing surface to possibly create the necessary lift while maintaining some control. Also, buteos will often take their prey someplace beyond where they kill it (i.e., top of a telephone pole), tear it apart and eat it piece by piece. Owls are somewhat unique in that they generally ingest their kill whole and aren't as well equipped at shredding prey like the hawks and eagles. They can do it, but their beaks aren't as sharp or as strong.
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I am only one. But still, I am one. I cannot do everything, but still, I can do something; and, because I cannot do everything, I will not refuse to do something that I can do.
Posts: 5438 | From: The gun-lovin', gun-friendly wild, wild west | Registered: Jan 2003
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted May 14, 2006 10:41 AM
BTW, my daughter is a bunny hugger, almost zen in attitude, which is why she probably wasted her time loading the fawn into her car? Interestingly, she expressed an interest in acquiring her mother's Lady Smith? I was surprised, and pleased. As far as I know, she has never fired a gun? Next time she comes down, I will see if she wants to drive up to the range with me. Maybe a small convert?
Anyway, this subject has got me bugged, a little bit. We have logic, and we have statements from witnesses?
Good hunting. LB
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
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Krustyklimber
prefers the bunny hugger pronunciation: ky o tee
Member # 72
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posted May 14, 2006 10:47 AM
Leonard,
What about a young bald eagle?
All dark in color, large enough to carry a four or five pound load, and indigenous to the coastal area.
A blacktail fawn, especially a freshie, can't weigh more than a medium sized cod?
Krusty 
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Buffalobob
Knows what it's all about
Member # 825
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posted May 14, 2006 12:49 PM
While I still go with the great horned owl being able to get a small fawn off the ground and being forced to drop it. It was reported to be an owl and owls are distinctive and the GHO eats anything and everything. Here is a reference that is interesting. I don't know the validity of the information
weight lifting
greatest weight-carrying capacity: bald eagle lifting a 6.8 kg (15 lb) mule deer
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Cdog911
"There are some ideas so absurd only an intellectual could believe them."--George Orwell.
Member # 7
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posted May 14, 2006 02:08 PM
Buffalobob,
I agree wholeheartedly with those facts, as I made clear right up there when I said,
quote:
Now, a larger buteo, like a hawk of eagle, has the wing surface to possibly create the necessary lift while maintaining some control.
But, having said that, I can all but state with total confidence that a GHO cannot lift a fawn-size animal. Studied great horned owls for five summers in college and none of the more than 400 owls I handled could have accomplished such a feat. Then again, maybe all my owls were "girly owls". ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
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I am only one. But still, I am one. I cannot do everything, but still, I can do something; and, because I cannot do everything, I will not refuse to do something that I can do.
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Tim Behle
Administrator MacNeal Sector
Member # 209
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posted May 14, 2006 04:12 PM
Cdog911,
I think you studied Girly owls.
The GHO's that' I've seen would have no trouble lifting off with a small fawn.
A friend of mine worked for the Sheriff's dept for 30+ years. During that time he made the front page twice for having a GHO drop a large Carp ( One of them might have been a catfish ) onto his patrol car in the middle of the night.
One fish shattered his windshield, the other dented his roof and got lodged under his light bar. The picture in the paper showed the mechanic's having to remove the light bar to get the big fish out from under it.
I don't mind the smaller owls, but those GHO steal chickens at a phenomenal rate.
Tim
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Personally, I carry a gun because I'm too young to die and too old to take
an ass kickin'.
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Jrbhunter
PAYS ATTENsION TO deTAIL
Member # 459
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posted May 14, 2006 04:28 PM
I believe a Great Horned Owl could harvest a fawn on occasion. I've seen other birds attempt it... and come mighty close... and I've seen several fawns that didn't go ten pounds. Like Tim said they are mighty hard on chickens, ducks and geese.
Just last fall I had an old farmer ask me why I was setting traps in his field. I told him he had given me permission, so I didn't see the problem. He said "I want those traps on top fencepost with cotton balls on the pans" ... "That'll solve my nuicense problems faster than you playing in the dirt". ![[Eek!]](eek.gif)
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Jrbhunter
PAYS ATTENsION TO deTAIL
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posted May 14, 2006 04:30 PM
PS: Cdog, send me an email at Jrbhunter@hotmail.com sometime.
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Cdog911
"There are some ideas so absurd only an intellectual could believe them."--George Orwell.
Member # 7
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posted May 14, 2006 05:00 PM
I'll stand by what I wrote. Until you've seen a full-grown great horned owl without feathers, you don't know how little there is to those critters.If it weren't for eyeballs, there'd be nothing to 'em.
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I am only one. But still, I am one. I cannot do everything, but still, I can do something; and, because I cannot do everything, I will not refuse to do something that I can do.
Posts: 5438 | From: The gun-lovin', gun-friendly wild, wild west | Registered: Jan 2003
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Tim Behle
Administrator MacNeal Sector
Member # 209
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posted May 14, 2006 07:56 PM
Cdog911
Ever see a naked fox or coyote? Fox eat lambs and Coyotes eat calves. An owl with eat anything it can sneak up on and kill.
Jason,
My old hen house had a 30' pole set behind it. Cotton will work, but a white feather stuck into the V on an old Victor works as well.
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Personally, I carry a gun because I'm too young to die and too old to take
an ass kickin'.
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted May 14, 2006 08:34 PM
This incident was broad daylight. I know, an owl can sometimes be flying in the daytime, but around here, it's because they were provoked by crows. And the crows are quite visible. I have also seen golden eagles (2) fly after dark, so not every rapter in the night is an owl, although it's a good bet that it's an owl. The reason why I say that is because what is the best guess on the type of bird that drops a carp on a squad car? A bald eagle, right? Next best guess is a teenage boy, but there again; do GHO fish? That's news to me. Ain't disagreeing, I just never heard of an owl fishing after dark?
I have examined great horned owls before, They seem to me to be able to carry off a cottontail rabbit (maybe) but I don't know about a deer fawn. And, Krusty was right, all the deer up in Marin are blacktails, and (might) probably(?) DO weigh close to ten pounds? (just a guess)
Good hunting. LB
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
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