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Author
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Topic: Anyone using sirens?
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Baldknobber
Knows what it's all about
Member # 514
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posted August 07, 2005 12:10 PM
The hound men here in Mo. use sirens before daylight to lacate coyotes, and then send their dogs in that direction at daylight. I thought about getting one to locate them with and slip into that area to call. Is anyone doing that now, or in the past, let me know how it works.
Do you guys think this would help eliminate hunting coyote void areas?
Rich Higgins, you've lived and hunted these hills and alot of other places. What are your thoughts?
You guys give me some ideas here. Thanks.
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JTBMO
Posts: 202 | From: Missouri | Registered: Jan 2005
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted August 07, 2005 02:34 PM
I think a siren is worthwhile, in some cases.
If you have no idea where the coyotes are, at any given moment, then a siren can point you in the right direction.
I just wouldn't put so much confidence in the responses you get from a siren so as to totally overlook good cover.
I do not know if a coyote can become immune to the sound, but you will probably get enough responses to get you started. I do not believe it has been established if every coyote that hears a siren will respond?
Where I have had some dissatisfaction is in places where I cannot get to where I hear the response because of lack of roads heading in that direction. Typically, as in Nevada, you may hear a response from two miles distant, and my desire is to call them to me, rather than walk to where they are responding.
It's just not good to leave your vehicle and strike out across the desert in search of coyotes. Any vehicle left unattended is at risk.
Where I would use it is if I was completely stumped, no sign, no response anywhere. In that case, I might be inclined to drive until I do get a vocal response, even if it means 30-40 miles down the road.
I think it's interesting but possibly overrated as a tool for locating coyotes. Maybe someone else has had a much better experience? If so, I'd like to hear about it.
Good hunting. LB
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
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Rich Higgins
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posted August 08, 2005 07:53 AM
Baldknobber, I know several callers, including three ADC professionals that use sirens to locate.A hunting buddy from Bolivar bought one and used it on one of our hunts and lit up a close pack in a hollow the first time he used it with me. On the other hand researchers report that coyotes habituate to sirens quickly and stop responding to them. They apparently do not habituate to coyote vocalizations. Personally I believe that coyotes habituate to the manner in which they are used. I also believe that a recording of a group yip-howl such as the JS Coyote Locator is as effective as a siren. It is particularly effective if you place the speaker out the window of your vehicle and drive along those hollows with the volume at max. Resident coyotes hear what must sound like a pack of intruders approaching and really light up. Same technique works with a siren. Probably for the same reason.
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Az-Hunter
Hi, I'm Vic WELCOME TO THE U.S. Free baloney sandwiches here
Member # 17
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posted August 08, 2005 08:26 AM
I hope Cal chimes in on this one to vindicate me:) I don't think sirens are that applicable to callers, versus their benefit to those involved in ADC during the spring/summer. During denning, where coyotes are pretty much going to stick to their ground(unless they relocate pups)a siren is probably a good thing for locating.
For a caller, or at least for me, I would beat a guy over the head if he lit up a siren as we exited the truck to make a stand. As callers, wew pretty much know where coyotes are, or at least have them pegged close enough that they can come to us. ADC guys cover so much country, much of it unfamilar to them, I can see the benefit for them so they can make best use of their time.
Callers should do their home work, scout, look for the usual sign and habitat, and quietly get into the country they want to make a stand in. The coyote vocalization thing, thats another matter I suppose, I would put it more in the category of using distress sounds,something they genetically relate to. I don't use vocalizations, so I can't really comment on them with any expertise.
Posts: 1629 | From: 5 miles west of Tim | Registered: Jan 2003
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Baldknobber
Knows what it's all about
Member # 514
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posted August 08, 2005 07:30 PM
Thanks for the input guys. I have about 11,000 to 12,000 acres to hunt. Several places from 1200 to 3000 acres. The way the coyotes move around on their territory, I just thought that instead of making 5 stands and seeing coyotes at 1 or 2, I might speed things up a little by using a siren. Say start about 4 am and just drive and stop, using at each stop. Then go back to those areas after daylight where I heard a response. Rich is right though about using one too much and acclimating them to it. The way to get away from that is to hunt the larger sections where roads are farther apart. The hound men like to hunt small sections where the coyotes cross roads alot so they can get shots at them. That way you could avoid the ones already worn out with sirens by the dog men. Again,thanks for the info.; I am just learnin' the ropes so to speak and try to milk you guys a little for some info. once in awhile without pestering you too much.
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JTBMO
Posts: 202 | From: Missouri | Registered: Jan 2005
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Rich Higgins
unknown comic
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posted August 09, 2005 07:30 AM
quote:
. As callers, wew pretty much know where coyotes are, or at least have them pegged close enough that they can come to us.
That is true for me in Az. and most states I've called in. However Baldknobbers part of Missouri is primarily private land with hollows running for miles weaving through one property into the next. You can only enter that property for which you have permission making scouting and following the coyotes activities very spotty. In some areas I would have access to 40 acre parcels and in some areas I would have access to 5000 acres and more.
Densities in that area are much lower than in Az. and the territories are very large, often following those hollows. The result is, the ranchers will tell you that they will see coyotes every morning while feeding stock for three or four days and then won't see any for a week or more. They will hear the coyotes breezing up the hollow at 2:00AM "screaming like Banshees" as they announce their return. Cold calling in those conditions is "iffy" and I would get nothing but practice for stand after stand. Locating with yip-howls was a big advantage in the Ozarks.
Edit: quote:
For a caller, or at least for me, I would beat a guy over the head if he lit up a siren as we exited the truck to make a stand.
Don't blame you. That is not the way to use a locator. Ya have to be smarter than that.
[ August 09, 2005, 07:35 AM: Message edited by: Rich Higgins ]
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Baldknobber
Knows what it's all about
Member # 514
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posted August 09, 2005 06:51 PM
Rich, what do you think the meaning of yip-howls is to a coyote? Is it a territorial announcement/warning. Is it meant to say "hey guys I'm back? Or maybe "I'm here where are you. Tell me more about it and why it illicits responses.
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JTBMO
Posts: 202 | From: Missouri | Registered: Jan 2005
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Cal Taylor
Knows what it's all about
Member # 199
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posted August 10, 2005 07:36 AM
My take is about like AZ's. I use a siren alot in the summer, but rarely when calling in the winter. Too many false readings. Even in summer you can be decieved until the pups are answering. If you get some old ones to howl and they aren't home yet you end up going to where they were, not where they are. Same with trying to locate at 4 am. All that tells you is that is where they were at 4 am, they can be a long ways from there by the time you get there to call. And if you locate with a siren right before you go to a stand you will get busted alot. They will answer, and then jump up on a high spot to see whats going on about the time you are walking in on them. But if you are just trying to determine if there are coyotes in the area it's fine for that. But there are plenty of other ways that are just as easy and less expensive. But for denning, if you can get a litter of pups to howl, it can really help.
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Democracy is two wolves and a lamb deciding what to have for lunch.
Liberty is a well armed lamb contesting the vote.
FoxPro Field Staff Member
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Greenside
seems to know what he is talking about
Member # 10
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posted August 10, 2005 01:51 PM
Somewhat the same view as Cal. I put a lot more weight on coyote howling at around dusk than I do before or in the dawn time frame. I don’t use a siren very often but do use one to occasionally find litters once they get off the hole and move into the cornfields. For locating, I do use a siren about the same way as a howler except for a couple of different reasons. I like to stay back quite some distance from where I think the coyote might be holed up. With the howler I think you have a better chance of getting a vocal response and less chance of them actually coming in if you’re a mile or so away. If you’re to close with the siren, I think you have a real good chance of scaring the beegeebees out of them. Probably not a big problem if you have an airplane on the way, but not real good for trying to call them in after the fact.
One thing I don’t like about sirens, in my area, is that that it will bring farmers in their pickups to see what the sirens all about. They don’t hear them every day and they will at times come to investigate the source. That’s not quite as bad as when they shoot rifles at you, from the milk house when you’re howling, trying to scare the coyote away!
Dennis
Posts: 719 | From: IA | Registered: Jan 2003
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Rich Higgins
unknown comic
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posted August 10, 2005 06:21 PM
quote:
Rich, what do you think the meaning of yip-howls is to a coyote? Is it a territorial announcement/warning. Is it meant to say "hey guys I'm back? Or maybe "I'm here where are you. Tell me more about it and why it illicits responses.
Group yip-howls serve several functions including territorial claim/declarations and passive defense. That means that the group yip-howl announces to all within hearing that a particular area is occupied by a resident group and serves the purpose of reducing intrusions by competitors. This is the vocalization used by researchers to locate. It is the vocalization that elicits a vocal response more than any other. The lone howl elicits an approach response more than any other. Kathleen Fullmer recorded a 47% vocal response ,during all seasons,to the group yip-howl during her two year study. However they would drive to one of two vantage points, stop and set up their equipment and then broadcast the howls. Broadcasting while moving in the general direction of the coyotes is much more effective. Which makes sense if, from the coyotes perspective, they hear a group of coyotes heading toward them vocally claiming the territory.
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Barndog
Knows what it's all about
Member # 255
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posted August 25, 2005 07:45 AM
Don't waste your money on a siren. If your in the sport for shooting coyotes then call them in. If your in it to control coyote populations, go ahead and get a siren and a couple of dogs and hunt the early summer months. If you locate a den smoke the pups, and then return in a couple of days and whine like a pup. Chances are she'll want to milk cause she hurts and you can kill her too. Its not a sport doing it this way but it does work.
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Cal Taylor
Knows what it's all about
Member # 199
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posted August 25, 2005 09:37 AM
Barndog,
I'm not trying to nit pick, but I would be curious as to where you are getting your information on denning and coyotes and how to kill them. I would say that you have been quite mis-informed to say the least.
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Democracy is two wolves and a lamb deciding what to have for lunch.
Liberty is a well armed lamb contesting the vote.
FoxPro Field Staff Member
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted August 25, 2005 10:31 AM
I know we are going to have a polite conversation; aren't we? ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
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Rich Higgins
unknown comic
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posted August 25, 2005 11:07 AM
Cal is always polite.
I hope Barndog responds. This will be educational.
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Cal Taylor
Knows what it's all about
Member # 199
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posted August 25, 2005 11:12 AM
I'm always polite Leonard. Well, most of the time. It just riles me a little when someone picks apart a style of hunting that they know little or nothing about. Killing coyotes off of a den deal can be as challenging of hunting as there is. Especially because most of the coyotes we deal with are in sheep country and are the most persecuted coyotes on the planet. There is someone trying to kill them one way or another from the day they are born. They get smart or die. I guess it's not defined as "sport" hunting, but in dealing with highly educated coyotes, I would say that it is very challenging at the least. After spending a few days trying to find and kill some of these coyotes, I think BarnDogs opinions might change drastically.
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Democracy is two wolves and a lamb deciding what to have for lunch.
Liberty is a well armed lamb contesting the vote.
FoxPro Field Staff Member
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted August 25, 2005 12:19 PM
For simplicity, let's break this down, sentence by sentence.
quote:
#1Don't waste your money on a siren.
#2If your in the sport for shooting coyotes then call them in.
#3If your in it to control coyote populations, go ahead and get a siren and a couple of dogs and hunt the early summer months.
#4If you locate a den smoke the pups, and then return in a couple of days and whine like a pup.
#5Chances are she'll want to milk cause she hurts and you can kill her too.
#6Its not a sport doing it this way but it does work.
Good hunting. LB
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 31468 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
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Dogleg
Knows what it's all about
Member # 662
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posted August 26, 2005 08:50 AM
Greenside,
I have avoided using sirens, just because I thought that they would produce unwanted human attention like you mentioned. Who needs it, esp. since locateing isn't real necessary in this part of the world.
What got my attention though, was your comment about getting shot at from a milkhouse? There must be a story there. I had an experience last fall with my 8 year old son. We were howling with a WT when someone emptied an auto-loader as fast as he could pull the trigger. My boy got all wide-eyed and asked " Is he shooting at us Daddy?" Now I just said that the man thought we were real coyotes close to his yard. (About a mile) and wanted us to go away. It worked! It was unsettling, since although he probably wasn't shooting at us or our sounds, he sure was shooting because of us.
Mike
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Baldknobber
Knows what it's all about
Member # 514
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posted August 26, 2005 02:15 PM
Barndog, I do hunt coyotes for sport, however, sometimes I hunt them out of necessity. I will give examples.
1.When I was 16 my Father was the ranch manager on the Luckenbach Ranch in Menard, Texas. It is located about 3 miles east of the current Burnham Brothers HQ. When you pull into a lambing pasture and find 1 or 2 lambs killed and eaten and another dozen killed just for fun by coyotes, you have to take matters into your own hands, no matter how brutal or unsportsmanlike some may think they are. 15 lambs at that time (1979) was equal to about $1200.00 . Livestock is the livelihood of a ranch family.
2. Here in Mo. where I now live, a family member has lost 14 beagles in the last 3 years. We have witnessed coyotes killing them; have driven off the coyotes while in the process of trying to kill them on numerous occasions; have taken dogs to the vet to be sewn up (one with a broken neck). These coyotes are gun shy, hunter shy call shy, trap shy. Times three!!! Perhaps a siren may not help me ocate them, or even help in any way at all, but I thought for about $25 I might give it a try. I will keep trying things until I find something that may work. Mange may be the only thing that works, but I'm not going to sit around and wait.
That I have a love /hate relationship goes without saying. That was the hate part. I have to admire the coyote for being a worthy adversary, which I think is the most challenging game animal in N. America. They are cunning,have a great sense of hearing , sight, and smell. If you deal with educated, coyotes such as these, you will hate them, as well as learn to admire them. If you ever walk up to a sprung trap that a coyote has crapped on, you will get the picture pretty damn fast. Cdog had a story about a problem coyote on this web earlier and I know exactly how he felt. He ended up better than me so far, But I still keep trying. Sorry to end this, but I'm about out of wind. Thanks Todd.
[ August 26, 2005, 02:16 PM: Message edited by: Baldknobber ]
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JTBMO
Posts: 202 | From: Missouri | Registered: Jan 2005
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Tim Behle
Administrator MacNeal Sector
Member # 209
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posted August 26, 2005 04:18 PM
quote:
If you ever walk up to a sprung trap that a coyote has crapped on, you will get the picture pretty damn fast.
Isn't that about the most aggravating thing?
Last winter, I had a coyote hit me like that 3 nights in a row on the same trap. I picked him up on a pee post 50 yards away the fourth night. ( Or at least I never found a turd on the trap after catching that one )
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Personally, I carry a gun because I'm too young to die and too old to take
an ass kickin'.
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Baldknobber
Knows what it's all about
Member # 514
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posted August 26, 2005 09:44 PM
Tim, that is aggravating. You have to wonder how the heck the coyote can keep doing that, even when you move the trap back, or set two traps at the same set. You have to admire the coyote a little bit for that. Todd.
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JTBMO
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Gerald Stewart
Knows what it's all about
Member # 162
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posted August 27, 2005 03:42 AM
Good thread guys. Let me jump in here at the risk of possible showing you how little I know about sirens and denning. My interest in this thread started with Barndog’s post and intensified with Cal’s first post for different reasons.
On one occasion on a July stand some years back I had a coyote come in to our Coyote\Grey Fox tape and it looked like it was searching frantically for the pup distress it heard (at least that is what I assumed). The coyote was looking from side to side turning its head sharply while racing almost in circles as it circled us. Its pelt looked wet and spiked and its ears were laid back flat.
It was Barndog’s comment # 5 (on the Leonard list for debate post) that made me wonder if that was possibly a reason for that behavior. Can Rich or anyone offer any perspective on that? ![[Confused]](confused.gif)
In the context of what had been posted earlier in the discussion, I actually thought Barndog’s post could have been viewed as a summarization. That is why Cal’s first post made me go whoa…”where did that come from” I murmured. I did not feel that Barndog’s post deserved such an in your face response…honestly. Cal, your first response was about as diplomatic as a Michael Savage come back. If you do not know who he is then we will leave it at that because I really want to be your pal not your adversary.
Put a question mark behind Barndog’s statements Cal and give me your response to them so I can learn more from your experience. I need to know why you think his statements are misleading. I suspect that what may be happening to Barndog is what happens in many attempts to communicate in this medium. Misperceptions abound.
Leonard, I vaguely remember a conversation, that you and I had on our outing, about train whistles or possibly the frequency from wheels on the track that made coyotes howl every time the train hit a certain stretch of track. Does that ring a bell or not? It may have been with someone else. The jest of the conversation was that some sirens work and others don’t and some train whistles work and others don’t? It would seem to me that if it is a frequency, much like a dog whistle works, then they would respond regardless of when or where. Does it hurt their ears or is it so pleasing that it sends them into an orgasm that evokes an audible response? Rich?
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Cal Taylor
Knows what it's all about
Member # 199
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posted August 27, 2005 09:05 AM
Gerald and all,
I guess I didn't realize that my post was so "in anyones face" and I apologize if thats the way it came out. I just assume that Barndog is regurgitating something someone told him, and has little or no experience with, but if I'm wrong, I'm wrong. But I'll try to touch on the subjects and see if I can make sense of what I think. (I usually can't type and make it sound like what I would really want to say).
1. Don't waste your money on a siren.
I pretty much summed up my thoughts on that one in my first post on this thread. It's a great tool for some and an unnessecary tool for others.
2. If your in the sport for shooting coyotes then call them in.
Well, of course, but isn't it easier to call them in if you know they are there? As far as denning and business go, location is everything.
3.If you are in it to control coyote populations, go ahead and get a siren and a couple of dogs and hunt the early summer months.
I did,I do, and get paid to do so. But in reality, why are you hunting coyotes? For the fur? for the challenge? for the fun? Fur is pretty well out these days, so I assume it is for sport. But alot of guys hunt summer months for sport too. They just don't bother to go mop up the pups, or care if they clean up all the old ones, they shoot what comes and move on. Not a problem, and thats the difference between them and me. I try my best to clean up everybody in each particular family group, especially if I think they are causing problems somewhere.
4. If you locate a den and smoke the pups, and then return in a couple of days and whine like a pup.
5.Chances are she'll want to milk cause she hurts and you can kill her too.
6.It's not a sport doing it this way but it does work.
Here is where I think the mis-information lies, so bear with me. First cardinal rule of denning, never, never kill the pups until you have the old ones, or are convinced that you have spilled the old ones so bad that they are never coming back. If a setup is a total wreck, and I don't get the old ones killed I will not go take the pups. I will give them a day or two and let them come back and pick the pups up. They will probably move them, but I can find them again usually. Some guys that like to trap, will sometimes take the pups, and try to trap the old ones. I have very little success with this method. But if you take those pups, you are basically turning the old ones footloose to do and go wherever they want and they become increasingly harder to pin down to a location to trap or call them.
If they have pups they are easier to find and kill, period.
Now, here's the other slight misconception. Ocassionally you can go back to a den that you have taken and kill an old one but if you have tromped all over, smoked the den and killed the pups, those old ones usually don't hang around. In the first 24 hours of so they will stay around and maybe make a pass or two by to see if theres a pup alive. They smell you, smoke, your dogs, etc. and will rarely spend any time there. They may camp somewhere close for a day or so and keep an eye on things, but if you are going to try to get back in there, they are going to be somewhere where they can watch things, and it is damn hard to get anywhere close to there with out getting busted.
As far as puppy sounds, they work great, while the pups are alive. I have a pup distress sound that I recorded that is deadly in these situations. Some others are finding out how deadly it is. Bryon used it alot in his new video and has told me via e-mail that it is one of the best sounds he has ever used. I can tell on the video that alot of the coyotes called in were denned pairs. You are correct Gerald that you can get some unreal reactions with those sounds in the right time and place, but once those pups are dead, everything becomes less effective. But occasionally it will still work. Barndog makes it sound as if you can just stroll up to a smoked den, whine a little and have the old bitch run over you. Nothing sporting about it, she will come and sit in you lap every time and anyone that can whine can do it.
And as for lactation. That is a good theory I guess, but not really true. First off, that only applies to about a month of the denning season, as soon as the little sharp teeth start coming, the pups are eating regurgitated food from the parents. Mom weans them fast. I would say that rarely do they milk more than 4 weeks and never more than six.
But regardless of that, I have had some screw up deals while she was milking and if she has played the game before, or the dogs put a little too much heat to her, or if you miss a rifle shot that was a little too close for her comfort, she is totally capable of leaving and never coming back. I have seen them do it. I have left pups alive for them and had them just never come back. I have went back a week later, to see if they came back to move the pups and had the pups still be there, and no adult had ever came back. No tracks of an adult, and starving whining puppies cruising around the hole trying to get something to eat. IF they have good teeth, they will cannibalize the first one to die and survive a few more days. I will always go ahead and smoke the pups in that situation always.
I am just trying to point out a few misconceptions and possibilities of what can happen. I wasn't trying to insult anyone, even though I felt a little insulted by someone telling me that what I do isn't fair or sporting. I have spent days on a particular wild bunch of coyotes trying to get things right to get them killed, and still not had things happen right. It happens to everyone that does this. It is rarely a slam dunk deal. Ask Higgins, I had two bunches located (I thought) for some easy film work, and had Scott Huber with us, and we didn't get either bunch to work the way they were supposed to, and had to leave them be. Later I went back and got in different locations and killed them. I understand that most people wouldn't consider it sport hunting, but also it isn't just wholesale simple slaughter either.
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Democracy is two wolves and a lamb deciding what to have for lunch.
Liberty is a well armed lamb contesting the vote.
FoxPro Field Staff Member
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted August 27, 2005 09:37 AM
There you go, Cal. Excellent post. I have to tell you that I had the same type of reaction as Gerald. While Barndog may not have been aware of the effect of his comments, I suspect that you were also not aware of the hostility contained in your response. Of course, that's my impression, and others may not have reacted the same as I, to either posts.
Now, the thing I didn't say, above, when I broke it down to six sentences, is; when dealing with coyotes, dang near anything is possible, and Barndog may have been speaking from direct experience.
In other words, he did something and it seemed to produce the desired effect, but he had a little luck. The ADC people may agree that it's not the best way of handling things. I don't know? As I have said before, I'm strictly a recreational hunter. I'm just trying to leave some wiggle room on both sides so we can keep the discusion civil, as opposed to what my sixth sense was telling me where it was headed.
I do appreciate your reply, it makes a lot of sense.
Good hunting. LB
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
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JoeF
resides "back east"
Member # 228
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posted August 27, 2005 12:29 PM
Gerald really hit the nail on the head when he mentioned the fragileness of this medium. The stuff that winds up here in black and white is really inadequate to completely get our message across. Totally devoid of smiling faces, gritted teeth, questioning eyes, or clenched fists.
I know for a fact that I've posted some things and looked at them a day later and thought "that really looked sappy", or had my point totally misinterpreted.
I read Cal's post and didn't consider it too over the top. There was obviously a difference of opinion/experiences, accompanied by a clear challenge to share.
The first sentence softened things a bit. The second was kind of a Roosevelt "talk(walk) softly and carry a big stick" kinda thing. A good expample of why a thick skin should be mandatory for participation on a board like this.
And if that isn't as clear as mud to all I'm going to throw the fit from hell if anyone doesn't see it my way. As I typed it in black and white, devoid of facial expression, and body language.
Maybe one of those Graemlins things shown at the bottom of the page should include gritted teeth and clenched fists.
Bottom line, I've been playing around these boards too much and too long to put too strict of an interpretation on anything. I understand Leonards concern about where it is/was heading because of his position here - he has to pull off a moderated "Rodney King statement" sort of thing. Gerald is a wise man in preemptively pointing out the weakness of this medium.
Cal is a patent and wise man in having responded in a constructive manner.
And I'm just commenting because this is one of my major frustrations, interests, and fascinations with this form of communication. Besides, I'm really trying to put off mowing the damned yard as long as possible.....
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Lonny
PANTS ON THE GROUND
Member # 19
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posted August 27, 2005 04:21 PM
Looking back on it I'm glad Barndog threw his two cents out there... Cal's excellent explanation of his viewpoints were very interesting and made for some good reading. It's like Leonard said once, sometimes you have to say certain things to smoke some of these guys out into sharing their thoughts. I didn't think anyone went over the top or anybody got their toes stepped on.
I my opinion some of the best discussion is when you get two or several guys debating a topic that gets "slightly" heated. Most of the guys around here are pretty much no the BS type. They call it like they see it.
Leonard you have these guys trained well. ![[Wink]](wink.gif)
[ August 27, 2005, 04:22 PM: Message edited by: Lonny ]
Posts: 1209 | From: Lewiston, Idaho USA | Registered: Jan 2003
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