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Author
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Topic: Packs and the time they spend in their territories
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Cdog911
"There are some ideas so absurd only an intellectual could believe them."--George Orwell.
Member # 7
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posted October 30, 2005 06:06 PM
Starting tomorrow morning, I'll be targeting a pack of coyotes that live in a full square mile pasture northeast of town. Every evening at twilight, the complainant hears them light up with their group yip howl, and another pack to the west a half-mile answers in response. I pointed out to him that it appears he has two packs rather than one, and a buddy of mine and his partner scored a deuce on the west pack earlier this week.
My question is this...
The only time I have to hunt these guys is in the mornings. The wife's job prevents me from hunting the evening nowadays unless I make special arrangements to leave our little girl at daycare until 6.
I'm getting to the question...
It's apparent that these coyotes are in their territory in the evenings, and it's assumed that they go hunting and foraging thru the night. (They're often seen going into the next section west, closer to the second pack's territory.)Will they generally return to their own territory to bed down and loaf during the day? Should I expect, in most cases, to find them there in the morning at "Oh my God!-thirty"!
Mainly directed at Rich, but I welcome all offers for edjycation.
[ October 30, 2005, 06:07 PM: Message edited by: Cdog911 ]
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I am only one. But still, I am one. I cannot do everything, but still, I can do something; and, because I cannot do everything, I will not refuse to do something that I can do.
Posts: 5438 | From: The gun-lovin', gun-friendly wild, wild west | Registered: Jan 2003
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2dogs
Knows what it's all about
Member # 649
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posted October 30, 2005 06:43 PM
Winter snowfly;
Well....Lance since 1964. The Red Fox & coyote. "Almost always" bed down by 10:00am...[done hunting]. Seen maybe 10 percent of the coyotes still hunting around 11:00am.
Then they'll start hunting again in the late afternoon around 3-5pm.
My .02cents. If their still hunting in the am & your in the vicinity. WUHWAAAAH,WAAAAAH,WAAAAH...BANG! ![[Wink]](wink.gif)
Posts: 1034 | From: central Iowa | Registered: Apr 2005
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Rob
Knows what it's all about
Member # 75
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posted October 30, 2005 07:18 PM
Coyotes do hunt after dark but do much more hunting just before dark and just after daylight in the morning hours,than they do in the dark of the night..and that is year round with snow on the ground or with hot heat in the summer months.
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"Where did all these #$%^&* Indians come from?" Gen. George Armstrong Custer
Posts: 224 | From: Clancy Montana | Registered: Feb 2003
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Cdog911
"There are some ideas so absurd only an intellectual could believe them."--George Orwell.
Member # 7
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posted October 30, 2005 08:00 PM
Good info, guys, but what I really am asking is do they bed down in the same general area each morning when done hunting? Since I am specifically targeting this one particular pack, I'm just curious about the experiences of the guys that go after them for ADC work and how large an area would you expect them to use day after day for bedding/ loafing cover?
The complainant has heard them consistently group howling from the same small area, which we'll be looking down upon when the sun rises in the morning.
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I am only one. But still, I am one. I cannot do everything, but still, I can do something; and, because I cannot do everything, I will not refuse to do something that I can do.
Posts: 5438 | From: The gun-lovin', gun-friendly wild, wild west | Registered: Jan 2003
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2dogs
Knows what it's all about
Member # 649
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posted October 30, 2005 08:14 PM
Lance,
All of my observing experience is in winter snowfly. I don't believe much changes through out the yr. So, I agree pretty much with Rob.
I don't believe an established Alpha pair or their pack will "tresspass" to bed down. They'll go back into their territory, eg;[comfort-zone]
I can't say 100 percent they'll bed in the same local area every day. I do believe they'll bed in/on their territory. When they give up the hunt, right where they happen to be. Provided it offers them some protection/observation.
Although I have shot at local pairs quite abit. They will often bed down very close[generally within 1-200yrds or so]. To where I seen them the day or two before...Here we go again, LOL!
Hope this helps ya ![[Cool]](cool.gif)
BTW, your startin to look like Q ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
[ October 30, 2005, 08:16 PM: Message edited by: 2dogs ]
Posts: 1034 | From: central Iowa | Registered: Apr 2005
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Greenside
seems to know what he is talking about
Member # 10
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posted October 30, 2005 08:28 PM
Lance
Well I'm not Rich, but I'd suspect they would be somewhere in that section. I'd probably sleep in for a extra hour and then hit them and hour or so after sunrise, just to make sure everyones home.
Dennis
Posts: 719 | From: IA | Registered: Jan 2003
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Rich Higgins
unknown comic
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posted October 30, 2005 09:01 PM
Lance, Oct is the middle of the dispersal or recovery social season. With that in mind,
1, One square mile is a very small area, Lance. Even feedlot coyotes that don't need to establish defended territories have home ranges, with males being larger, as much as 9 miles long, than females. They periodically make the circuit, usually alone, sometimes with another family member.
2. Coyotes are primarily crepuscular, due to the evolution of their eyes. That is why the first stand, at first light, is the highest confidence stand of the day for me.
3. Coyotes don't bed down for the night or day and sleep through, rather they will nap for fairly short periods between periods of activity. Those nap or resting periods vary but the times of 10-11 AM and 2-3 PM daylight and 10-11 PM and 2-3 AM keep popping up in the studies. (Disclaimer; studies of radio collared coyotes in urban areas show that they will become almost entirely nocturnal in activity and will not reveal themselves during daylight.)
4. Social activity is important to the adhesion of the family unit or pack. That is why they assemble to group howl a couple of times in a 24 hour period. Usually sometime before dawn, as much as 2 hours before and usually at dusk or later. They often spend some time as a unit hunting or socializing before wandering off on their own. Everything stated here is a generality, of course. They don't punch a clock or adhere to a program. They may remain together for the better part of a day if it suits them or they may not assemble for a couple of days.
5. If the rancher is hearing the two groups howling on a regular basis from the same general locations, it is safe to assume that they have a reason for announcing their location within their territories. It really doesn't matter if it is territorial or just social, if they are compelled to announce regularly in the evenings, they should announced in the AM as well.
So
Someone should have heard them howling in the AM and be able to direct you to that location. If you have only one short period of the day to hunt a crepuscular animal I believe dawn is best. Since they usually do not move or hunt as a pack, and some of the adults may be many miles from you when you make your stand, I would suggest you make the same stand three consecutive mornings to maximize the probability of putting your sounds in front of all the coyotes in that group.(Coppinger's study not withstanding.) If you take out an adult male, keep at it since they are usually replaced almost overnite. However it takes as much as three months to sort out the dominance issue.
I would not hesitate to make several stands on a single morning in close proximity. In MO. I would make as many as three stands in a 40 acre lot.
I would give them my basic go-to sounds on each stand and add something to the mix on each successive stand. Of course you have to be able to approach the next stand undetected.
Sounds like fun, Lance. Good luck.
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted October 30, 2005 11:18 PM
quote:
Coyotes do hunt after dark but do much more hunting just before dark and just after daylight in the morning hours,than they do in the dark of the night..and that is year round with snow on the ground or with hot heat in the summer months.
Hey Rob, where did you come up with that data?
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As to where they group howl just before dark; predicting where they will be pre-dawn. I really wouldn't think they would be in the same place, but you could probably call them from that same place, just expect an approach from a completely different direction.
But, as Higgins suggested, I would make several stands in the area, pussyfooting around, and keep your volume low. I would think the odds would be good of snagging a few, if they really are that predictable in their movements....bearing in mind that you only know one piece of information.
Good hunting. LB
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 31462 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
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Cdog911
"There are some ideas so absurd only an intellectual could believe them."--George Orwell.
Member # 7
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posted October 31, 2005 04:30 AM
Thanks to all. It's 5:22 by the clock on the wall and a small squall line of showers will be on us for the next hour or so. My gunner and I will go for coffee, I guess, and wait the rain out.
Rich,
Most of what you said is what I already knew but it was good for a review. I hadn't really thought about putting three or four stands in close proximity to this area before but may give it a try.
Three or four consecutive mornings to hunt?!? What are you? Self-employed? LOL
To have two packs sounding off this close, and so predictably, is indeed rare for this area. They haven't been sounding in the mornings as far as we know. But, there are a lot of coyotes out there right now and logic tells me that vocalization frequencies would be directly proportional to coyote denssities, so being so close together would compelt them to maintain a safe distance from one another by frequently staying in touch. In the case of this pasture, there are few extra setups here. I'll be entering from the south, hiking in 3/8 of a mile to a hill that the entire pasture rises toward just south of the dead center of the section. From there, we can see almost the entire section except for what's immediately behind us. May have to use my Wile E. long-range howler on this one.
Oh well, time to load the truck. Thanks for the information.
P.S. 2dogs, Q's ten years younger, still has his girlish figure, and always has a dead coyote hanging off him somewhere. I can't make that claim. Locohead laughingly refers to us as his redheaded whitey buddies, or something like that.
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I am only one. But still, I am one. I cannot do everything, but still, I can do something; and, because I cannot do everything, I will not refuse to do something that I can do.
Posts: 5438 | From: The gun-lovin', gun-friendly wild, wild west | Registered: Jan 2003
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2dogs
Knows what it's all about
Member # 649
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posted October 31, 2005 04:43 AM
Lance,
Can't obviously prove it. But the last 2 late winters in snowfly. I've spotted a pr of coyotes. That mostly bedded in the same spot. Protected from a Northerly wind, & bedded facing the Sun. In an[Open picked cornfield, along a East/West fenceline...overlooking a large wide valley].
This small area, had two parallel draws close together[100yrds apart]. "That pr" would use one or the other of those draws, regularly. Their den was in the same section around 300yrds or so away, from those two draw's.
This pr would bed, in "almost" the exact spot,...time & time again. I've seen similiar habits of other pr's & single's, as well over the yrs.
As I use a spotter scope. Some of these coyotes, I was able to verify by an unusual marking or color swatch, or size.
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One field in particular, when it was planted in corn...[with corn bales after the harvest].
I consistantly would see, An Alpha pr bedded in that small area. Took me a couple Winter's to kill the local Alpha pr. After that, I would often spot singles useing the same [focal area], for bedding.
Posts: 1034 | From: central Iowa | Registered: Apr 2005
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Cdog911
"There are some ideas so absurd only an intellectual could believe them."--George Orwell.
Member # 7
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posted October 31, 2005 05:07 AM
Interesting, 2dogs. In my case, they appear to be bedding down in a safe haven consisting of a stand of small cottonwoods on the southern edge of a pasture that borders my pasture on the north. I have permission to hunt on all of the other guy's ground - except for that pasture. They haven't allowed anyone to hunt anything in there for years because it's both summer and winter pasture for his cattle. I suspect that those coyotes are privvy to that fact as well. It will all come down to wheher or not I can draw them across the fence, or at least get them to stick their head thru the fence.
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I am only one. But still, I am one. I cannot do everything, but still, I can do something; and, because I cannot do everything, I will not refuse to do something that I can do.
Posts: 5438 | From: The gun-lovin', gun-friendly wild, wild west | Registered: Jan 2003
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2dogs
Knows what it's all about
Member # 649
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posted October 31, 2005 05:30 AM
Lance,
Wish you well. Sargent York'em
Posts: 1034 | From: central Iowa | Registered: Apr 2005
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2dogs
Knows what it's all about
Member # 649
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posted October 31, 2005 06:05 AM
Here's that pr, I've spotted the last two winters. There is a East/West fencline just north of them a little ways. You can see a couple draws. Thats were they've been laying. Their laying on the Eastern side, upper portion of a draw, out of NorWester howling wind.
They've got some badness, coming their way this snowfly ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
[ October 31, 2005, 06:11 AM: Message edited by: 2dogs ]
Posts: 1034 | From: central Iowa | Registered: Apr 2005
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Greenside
seems to know what he is talking about
Member # 10
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posted October 31, 2005 06:52 AM
Lance, Any cover just over the fence or joining those pastures? Spring, summer or fall calve or some sort of combination?
Dennis
Posts: 719 | From: IA | Registered: Jan 2003
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Rich Higgins
unknown comic
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posted October 31, 2005 07:29 AM
Lance, you know coyotes will come to the call in the rain also. Q wouldn't wuss out in a coffee shop.
Rob, Like Leonard I would like to know the source of your data, because, again like Leonard, I know that coyotes are actually much more active at night than during daylight hours, for the most part. Those yip howling sessions are the culmination of their greeting ritual and I hear it out here at all different hours of the night or early morning. For the last two weeks I've slept with the outside bedroom door open (finally cool enough) and the recording equipment set up and ready to turn on when they begin howling. I have hit the record button on assembly howls and group howls at 6:30PM, 8:19Pm, 11:12PM, 2:12AM, 3:08AM, 3:17AM, 3:46AM, 4:06AM, and on last Fri. 6:09AM
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Greenside
seems to know what he is talking about
Member # 10
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posted October 31, 2005 09:13 AM
So what's the relationship between those two "packs"? Is there indeed two packs or is it just members of the same pack(family) starting their hunt from different locations. Can members of the same pack live in different "houses" on the opposite side of the road? If two packs had an inter-territorial relationship would they be family?
Dennis
[ October 31, 2005, 12:02 PM: Message edited by: Greenside ]
Posts: 719 | From: IA | Registered: Jan 2003
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted October 31, 2005 10:52 AM
As far as the comparative activity, day or night. It is my belief that during hot weather months, coyotes in desert areas are probably 90% night hunters. Some places, the coyotes don't even begin to move until after 11:00 P.M. there always being exceptions. I also believe that the last two or three hours before dawn are easily the most active periods. I also agree with Higgins that a stand at first light is usually productive.
I do admit that documenting these things is not much easier than documenting bowl movements. I'm just speaking of the receptability of a coyote to respond to a call, so I can't really say that they are not actively hunting just because they don't come to my stand.
Good hunting. LB
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 31462 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
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Cdog911
"There are some ideas so absurd only an intellectual could believe them."--George Orwell.
Member # 7
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posted October 31, 2005 10:53 AM
Dennis,
That's one question I have as well. Would they sound off from two different locales and still be of the same pack?
Rich,
Q doesn't drink coffee. I think he drinks Pepsi. In any event, my philosophy is that raining or not, they'll still be there when it stops. Then again, they weren't. Didn't see a thing. Went down the road a couple miles to a dairy farm where the owner said he heard some sound off at sunup this morning below the farm in a dried up pond area. We made our approach from the other side and called. Nothing. Called two other places and saw nothing. Now, I had to head home so I could get told more about why they haven't sold my house yet. Done for the day.
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I am only one. But still, I am one. I cannot do everything, but still, I can do something; and, because I cannot do everything, I will not refuse to do something that I can do.
Posts: 5438 | From: The gun-lovin', gun-friendly wild, wild west | Registered: Jan 2003
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Rich
2,000th post PAKMAN
Member # 112
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posted October 31, 2005 02:18 PM
Cdog911,
Are you still playing that howling tape over by Higgy's house during the night? I hear that he has been recording it at various hours. I told ya he would fall for it.
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If you call the coyotes in close, you won't NEED a high dollar range finder.
Posts: 2854 | From: Iowa | Registered: Feb 2003
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Rob
Knows what it's all about
Member # 75
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posted October 31, 2005 05:12 PM
While coyotes do hunt after dark,everywhere---repeat everywhere that I have ever trapped for them or spent time hunting them,they do much more hunting just before dark and just after daylight in the morning hours than they do in the dark of the night---and that is year round with snow on the ground or with hot heat in the summer months. The animal relys on his nose and trusts his nose more than his eyesight,but he depends on his eyesight much more than he is given credit for---And food is not the number one attraction for them!Curiosity kills more coyotes than the need for food ever has.
Slim Pedersen
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"Where did all these #$%^&* Indians come from?" Gen. George Armstrong Custer
Posts: 224 | From: Clancy Montana | Registered: Feb 2003
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Cal Taylor
Knows what it's all about
Member # 199
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posted October 31, 2005 05:28 PM
Slim Pederson, Who the hell is he and what would he know about it?
Just Kidding. As for the north country I would have to agree with him. As for down south, I don't know. But here, even when it's hot, in denning situations alot of times the old dog won't show up around a den til 8:30 or so, cause he's gone hunting. Wiley E and I had this conversation when Higgins was up here and Wiley E stated that in most Gov studies and talking to other Federal trappers on when coyotes were home and killed in the AM it was the magic 8:30. Maybe the G men just don't get out of bed early, I don't know.
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Democracy is two wolves and a lamb deciding what to have for lunch.
Liberty is a well armed lamb contesting the vote.
FoxPro Field Staff Member
Posts: 1069 | From: Wyoming | Registered: May 2003
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted October 31, 2005 06:48 PM
Thanks, Rob.
Put me down as disagreeing with Slim; one of the major celebrities in predator hunting and trapping. That just doesn't wash with my modest efforts, as I'm just a recreational predator hunter.
Sorry, I don't believe it.
Good hunting. LB
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 31462 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
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Cdog911
"There are some ideas so absurd only an intellectual could believe them."--George Orwell.
Member # 7
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posted October 31, 2005 07:08 PM
Well damn! We started calling at about 8:20 and probably spooked the old man off before he made it to the front steps. Surprises me that he was aware of the time change, but then again, nothing about coyotes surprises me anymore.
Cronk, you sly fox, you were right. Old Higgins has been falling for that howler tape hook, line and sinker. I guess you win. Your check will be in the mail first thing tomorrow. Now,... can I stay home and sleep a couple nights. The drive down there every evening is killing me.
Seriously, thanks for the input from you guys. All of it can be helpful to me at some time or another. Now, I promise to cease trying to sidetrack my own thread.
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I am only one. But still, I am one. I cannot do everything, but still, I can do something; and, because I cannot do everything, I will not refuse to do something that I can do.
Posts: 5438 | From: The gun-lovin', gun-friendly wild, wild west | Registered: Jan 2003
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted October 31, 2005 07:14 PM
Lance, you know very well that we specifically tossed the hijack rule on Huntmasters a long time ago. In fact it never was part of the TOS, mainly because we don't have any written rules. Don't believe me, look at the registration page.
Good hunting. LB
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 31462 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
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Rich Higgins
unknown comic
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posted October 31, 2005 08:51 PM
Cal, I specifically stated at the beginning of my post that it was concerning recovery or dispersal social season, because denning season changes their behavior drstically. I once shot a bitch that crossed under a fence so often to and from the denning area that she wore the hair of her back fro behind her ears to the root of her tail. Close as a butch cut. They sometimes hold to a schedule that you can set your clock by. Not so at this time of year.
Rob, there are any number of studies of collared coyotes that identify their peak activity times.
Martha grinder's study in Tucson, Jonathan Ways in Cape Cod and Boston, Kathleen Fulmer in Washington state, many others. Pick one. Without exception they demonstrate that even unexploited coyotes are as active at certain times of the night as they are during the day and that exploited coyotes and the urban coyotes may become entirely nocturnal.
As vocal as my coyotes are around here they are obviuosly very active at all times of the night.
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