|
Author
|
Topic: How often do you call the same stand?
|
Rich Higgins
unknown comic
|
posted September 21, 2006 08:52 PM
This was the where Tyler and Rich made their first stand of the contest hunt on Saturday and brought in two coyotes. On the way back to camp that evening they made the last stand of the day in the same place and called in a coyote. The pic is of the first stand Sunday morning in the same place and they brought in a coyote.
This was a four year old male that snuck in
like a cat. He would sneak up to a bush and look through it for a while then sneak to a closer one and look through it. Made for good video.
The coyote is still slicked out in it's summer pelage.
IP: Logged
|
|
Rich Higgins
unknown comic
|
posted September 21, 2006 08:54 PM
Rich reminds me of Q. Looks like him too. Shoots like him too. ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
IP: Logged
|
|
Cdog911
"There are some ideas so absurd only an intellectual could believe them."--George Orwell.
Member # 7
|
posted September 22, 2006 04:46 AM
For most of the time I've been calling, I've always made it a rule not to overcall a particular stand location. Maybe once every week or less, especially if I make a shot while there.
Then, this year, we were especially careful about not only entering the site, but leaving with as much caution and stealth, even if we didn't get a shot. I am convinced that coyotes set up beyond our line of site (but well within theirs) and recon the situation before committing. By waiting a while in silence before rising and leaving to dissassociate the sounds and calling with our presence, then leaving quietly and without being seen, I hoped to create circumstances where we could call the same coyotes again and again without tipping our hand. Early results look successful, since we called and killed four coyotes at one spot and six at another, never taking more than one at a time. In the case of the four, they were a litter I'd seen earlier in the season, all uniquely marked exactly alike. In some cases, individuals were called and killed on consecutive days from the same set up.
As a rule, though, I call same locales about once every week or so, but that's more a matter of how my days off are scheduled rather than by strategic design.
--------------------
I am only one. But still, I am one. I cannot do everything, but still, I can do something; and, because I cannot do everything, I will not refuse to do something that I can do.
Posts: 5438 | From: The gun-lovin', gun-friendly wild, wild west | Registered: Jan 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
Andy L
HI, I'M THE NEW MODERATOR OF THE CENTRAL MISSOURI FORUM, PULL MY FINGER!
Member # 642
|
posted September 22, 2006 06:05 AM
It all depends. I got a couple places I call everytime I get close to them. Dont matter if I was just there the day before or earlier in the day. They are kinda unique, I guess you would say. Seem to get alot of coyotes coming to those places from all over. They are turkey houses. Lots of turkeys die in turkey houses and the compost, dead pile is pretty big outside of them. Especially when it gets real cold or lots of snow, those get extremely popular with coyotes. Good place to call nearby.
--------------------
Andy
Posts: 2645 | From: Central Missouri | Registered: Apr 2005
| IP: Logged
|
|
Rich Higgins
unknown comic
|
posted September 22, 2006 06:54 AM
Sure, no hard and fast rules. We call an area until it no longer produces, then give it a rest and kinda hope all the other callers do also. However the same stand giving up coyotes three times in 24 hours is pushing the limits for us.
Andy, I'm surprised that the turkey houses are still allowed to dump the birds in dead piles. Tyson had several big chicken operations in Arkansas and they dumped offal and carcasses in the hollows near the houses. Huge smelly dumps. Big white chickens that had escaped were common in the area as well. As you can imagine it attracted a huge pot pourri of predators and scavangers including coyotes, feral dogs, red wolves and the biologists that studied them.
IP: Logged
|
|
Greenside
seems to know what he is talking about
Member # 10
|
posted September 22, 2006 07:43 AM
quote:
I am convinced that coyotes set up beyond our line of site (but well within theirs) and recon the situation before committing.
Huh?
Dennis
Posts: 719 | From: IA | Registered: Jan 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
NASA
Knows what it's all about
Member # 177
|
posted September 22, 2006 08:12 AM
He meant "sight" not site.
Posts: 1168 | From: Typical White Person | Registered: Apr 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
Jrbhunter
PAYS ATTENsION TO deTAIL
Member # 459
|
posted September 22, 2006 08:56 AM
Lance thinks coyotes come to a call until they can see the sound source, then stop and survey the situation before commiting a plan of attack. Right Lance?
If so, I disagree. Strongly.
I'll call a stand pretty regularly until it doesn't produce... kill what you see and don't expect the getaways to visit you again in the near future regaurdless.
Posts: 615 | From: Indiana | Registered: Dec 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
|
posted September 22, 2006 09:08 AM
quote:
If so, I disagree. Strongly. Jrbhunter
You know, I might have said the same, until I hunted western Kansas and extreme eastern Colorado. But, (with a little luck) I saw them respond just as he described. I don't know what to think, except that some of the locals are hurting the hunting with their behavior?
Good hunting. LB
[ September 22, 2006, 09:09 AM: Message edited by: Leonard ]
--------------------
EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 31450 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
TA17Rem
Hello, I'm the legendary Tim Anderson, Field Marshall, Southern Minneesota Sector
Member # 794
|
posted September 22, 2006 09:17 AM
When i call in a pair and only shoot one, i will come back in a day or so and use a lost mate howl and get the other. I hunt mostly on the open praries and i can see for a long ways, like Lance was saying a coyote well come in to 300-400 yds and look the situation over, if he dosen't like it he will leave. This would happen alot untill i started useing field glasses and then i could pick them out. Most of the time all i see is the head. When i spot them i then try a howl or go to a squeaker. It takes a little longer to get them them in close enough for a shot.
--------------------
What if I told you, the left wing and right wing both belong to same bird!
Posts: 5063 | From: S.D. | Registered: Jan 2006
| IP: Logged
|
|
Rich Higgins
unknown comic
|
posted September 22, 2006 09:55 AM
quote:
Lance thinks coyotes come to a call until they can see the sound source, then stop and survey the situation before commiting a plan of attack. Right Lance?
Lance is absolutely correct. Very pressured coyotes won't even expose themselves for a line of sight visual. They will go as far downwind as they need to without exposing themseves in order to learn everything that their nose can tell them. GPS animations have made me go back to square one in my thinking
IP: Logged
|
|
JD
HONORARY OKIE .... and Tim's at fault!
Member # 768
|
posted September 22, 2006 10:07 AM
Lance is spot on with his post & as Leonard pointed out once you hunt coyotes in the heartland you`ll see some different behaviors than you might expect....not always of course but a good share of the time. Maybe it`s due to the visibility in these flat regions & the fact that most "coyote hunters" (I`m using that title very loosely) in these areas arent afraid to rest the rifle across the window & mirror & proceed to empty the magazine on any coyote less than 600 yds away & then haul ass to the next mile road to cut them off & do it again. That sort of pressure MUST have an effect on their behavior.
If there`s one thing I do know it`s that you can`t hunt coyotes in PA. or AZ. & expect ALL of those techniques & behaviors to be identical everywhere in the country. As far as "getaways" are concerned it certainly makes sense to move on & forget about them but then again I`ve had them come back to the call within 45 min. before & I know it was the same coyotes because I watched them the whole time from my vantage point.
Not to derail this thread but these coyotes that hang up far out & watch for a while are where the dogs can really be an asset in this area.
Personally I used to give an area a rest for several days up to a couple weeks depending on the situation but anymore it really depends more on my mood & schedule than anything else, I quit using formulas for success quite some time ago, now I just go out & enjoy the hunt & the dogs working & just being outdoors in general. I`m more succesful & it`s a hell of a lot more fun too.
--------------------
Jason
--------------------------------------
What do Obama & TA17Rem have in common........both are clueless asshats!!!
Posts: 1456 | From: NE. | Registered: Dec 2005
| IP: Logged
|
|
JD
HONORARY OKIE .... and Tim's at fault!
Member # 768
|
posted September 22, 2006 10:12 AM
Rich, we must`ve been typing at the same time, tell me about GPS animations, I`m not quite sure what you mean about going back to square one.
--------------------
Jason
--------------------------------------
What do Obama & TA17Rem have in common........both are clueless asshats!!!
Posts: 1456 | From: NE. | Registered: Dec 2005
| IP: Logged
|
|
Jrbhunter
PAYS ATTENsION TO deTAIL
Member # 459
|
posted September 22, 2006 10:40 AM
I tend to believe they put themselves in a situation where they can pinpoint the soundsource... not necessarily see it. Once they THINK they know where it's coming from, using a soundcone and sound deflection, they begin concerning themselves with wind. Sometimes this is at a safe distance, other times it's not... they can't calculate the ballistics and accuracy of a rifle so their approach is pot luck. Especially against electronic callers.
Cover- yes. They'll use any structure available and any lighting issues to their advantage. That's just part of reading a setup- not necessarily a life saver on their part. A coyote that is wise enough to stop for prolonged periods of time is rarely going to be killed in my area (Unless he's vocal). Especially if he's stopping in the hunters blind spot- not knowing when to "Turn them up" is a major handicap when dealing with a coyote THAT slick. I try not to give them that luxury but as with anything, there are always variables and exceptions.
I killed over 20 coyotes in one small field last winter. Surrounded by thousands of acres of forest. Given the chance I believe many of those late arrivals (#12-13-14-ect) would've acted as you've outlined... but why let them? If coyotes acted that way as a rule we'd rarely kill one in the heavy timber.
I hunt a stretch that covers over 330 mile north/south in Indiana. This includes regions of rugged terrain with 90% timber and other areas of rowcropped pancake ground that see frigid temps with lake effect snow. In Indiana, I haven't witnessed that behavior in any substantial way.
I don't strongly disagree with Lance's experiences... only a blanket statement folks may apply on Midwestern coyotes. Much like I don't my experiences are gosphel, we all approach a coyote differently and he reacts accordingly.
Posts: 615 | From: Indiana | Registered: Dec 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
JD
HONORARY OKIE .... and Tim's at fault!
Member # 768
|
posted September 22, 2006 11:25 AM
quote:
Given the chance I believe many of those late arrivals (#12-13-14-ect) would've acted as you've outlined... but why let them?
I`m not sure how you plan on "not letting them" stop & look around from 600yds away.
quote:
If coyotes acted that way as a rule we'd rarely kill one in the heavy timber.
![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
Not a lot of "heavy" timber in the areas that Lance & I are calling. However I can drive an hour or so & be in the forest & I`ve watched the same behavior there when calling from a hilltop when the ground is covered with snow, only they aren`t 600 yds away if they`re pressured they`ll be whatever distance they feel is safe.
Lance said....."coyotes set up beyond our line of site (but well within theirs)" ....I`ve witnessed this enough over the years that I can say with conviction that it`s a correct assumption much of the time around here. The advantage I have over some places is the ability to set a caller in a valley & set on top of a hill next to a cedar & be able to see for long distances over adjoining flat pastures & fields & creek beds & observe their behavior as they come in.
I`m not sure I`m following your story on the 20 coyotes killed in one field, according to your reference to the latecomers it seems to put it into the context of 20 coyotes killed on one stand!?!?
--------------------
Jason
--------------------------------------
What do Obama & TA17Rem have in common........both are clueless asshats!!!
Posts: 1456 | From: NE. | Registered: Dec 2005
| IP: Logged
|
|
Rich Higgins
unknown comic
|
posted September 22, 2006 02:36 PM
quote:
they can't calculate the ballistics and accuracy of a rifle so their approach is pot luck. Especially against electronic callers.
Why especially electronics?
IP: Logged
|
|
Rich Higgins
unknown comic
|
posted September 22, 2006 02:43 PM
quote:
I tend to believe they put themselves in a situation where they can pinpoint the soundsource... not necessarily see it.
It is believed that a coyotes bilateral audio receptors can accurately pinpoint the origin of a sound to within 3 minutes of angle. Unless something is interferring with that reception it would seem logical that a coyote repositions itself to either get a visual or a scent of the source. I cannot think of any coyote that has approached a stand that was not looking hard or sniffing hard.
IP: Logged
|
|
Rich Higgins
unknown comic
|
posted September 22, 2006 02:51 PM
Tyler attributes a good part of their success on this hunt to the fox squalls that he produced on this RR call made for him by Bearmanric. Two coyotes showed themselves immediately after he used it so the call became a regular on his kitchen sink stands.
IP: Logged
|
|
Andy L
HI, I'M THE NEW MODERATOR OF THE CENTRAL MISSOURI FORUM, PULL MY FINGER!
Member # 642
|
posted September 22, 2006 02:55 PM
Rich,
There are still composte piles of dead turkeys. We have tons of turkey barns around here. Good places to call around. I have found whole and parts of dead turkeys literally miles from the nearest barn. They haul them quite a ways sometimes.
--------------------
Andy
Posts: 2645 | From: Central Missouri | Registered: Apr 2005
| IP: Logged
|
|
Cdog911
"There are some ideas so absurd only an intellectual could believe them."--George Orwell.
Member # 7
|
posted September 22, 2006 03:38 PM
Jason,
I, like you, operated pretty much with the impression that you describe. Coyotes approach from what they think is a good angle and come in unfettered. Then, I hunted the wide open spaces out west. Luckily, I was with Q who has bionic vision and can pick out a coyote at way the hell out enough that it's frustrating as hell when you're like me and conditioned to function within the context of 300 yards. Here's what I observed.
Howl a few times, maybe even get so far as to be calling with distress. Be looking way out there because on several occasions, we would see not one but as many as six coyotes appear and group up out there (beyond my line of si(gh)t but well within theirs). They would him-haw around a bit; some would sit while others would pace. But, invariably, one would peel off and make the approach. And die.
The survivors would simply stand and lope off, seemingly indifferent to the entire proceedings. And when hunting with Quinton, that's when you hit your feet and go after them.
My lesson was simple: Could my coyotes here in Kansas be doing the same thing? And, if so, how can I best counter that behavior?
Simply, yes. I believe they are. I use as lot of howling and am convinced that most of my responses are part of packs - whoever may be close enough to make the scene - because I see a lot of multiple responses. Now, my local coyotes may not be setting up at 1K yards like I've seen in NE and CO, but they don't have to. Like in your timberlands, they have the advantage of vertical structure to conceal their approach and it's well accepted by hunters that call that type of terrain that they'll use that cover.
The point I was making is that our calling becomes extremely difficult around Christmas time. Responses dwindle to a fraction of what they were before that time. It's not because there is a sudden decline in numbers, but because of hunting pressure. To counter this paranoia, we chose this past season to wrap up each stand with a brief period of silence, then rise and sneak out as carefully as we went in. I am convinced that the ones left behind - the ones on that distant hillside, unnoticed by the callers - see many guys get up, claim their dead critter, start talking, back slapping and attaboys and very quickly learn to associate the entire sequence of events with human presence.
At the very worst, being that careful doesn't hurt a bit. At the very best, it kept several spots producing time after time this season which is something we'd never observed before to that extent.
Now, having said that, the techniques and style of calling I use tends to target older, more experienced coyotes more so than young of the year pups. I would expect young coyotes to come in as you describe. Older coyotes, on the other hand, would be expected to exhibit the type of cautious behavior that allowed them to become older coyotes in the first place. The ones I kill run the entire age scale. Often, someone will challenge an assertion someone makes as a "blanket statement" with the belief that all blanket statements are inherently false and flawed. In most cases, I agree. In this case, I know what I've seen, I know how making adjustments to our methodology here prompted marked improvements in our response rates over the course of a year, and I think I'll stand by what I posted.
--------------------
I am only one. But still, I am one. I cannot do everything, but still, I can do something; and, because I cannot do everything, I will not refuse to do something that I can do.
Posts: 5438 | From: The gun-lovin', gun-friendly wild, wild west | Registered: Jan 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
Jrbhunter
PAYS ATTENsION TO deTAIL
Member # 459
|
posted September 22, 2006 08:13 PM
Higgins- The ecaller exibits no movement and a miniature scent cone- that's why I believe coyotes are at more of a disadvantage when trying to "Pick one out" (Visual/Scent) as opposed to a man working a handcall. Also, I didn't mean to imply a coyote would come in without looking or sniffing the whole way... only that a coyote patient enough to stop and stand around researching a potentially life altering situation is going to be a very low percentage kill. Especially if the caller is a spectator and feels no control over the speed/angle an incoming coyote is taking.
Lance it sounds like you are working with animals that behave differently than mine. In the northern country we have a line of sight similar to what you mentioned... on occasion we've watched pairs come a mile and cross a couple county roads only to die at 60 yards. Very-very rarely do we see more than 2 in a group. Again- just different behavior for different regions I suppose?
Our calling success slows mid November thru mid January... I attribute some of that to all the other sportsmen afield, not necessarily calling pressure as I've never seen another caller in this state outside of Wal*Marts and trapping conventions. I'd venture to say the age of the coyotes we kill are mixed pretty evenly. Sitting on stand a while after calling may be a fine idea, I just have it in my head that there's another easier coyote somewhere else that I could be killing with that time. So long as I have uncalled farms in my platbook at the end of each season it's hard to justify sitting around.
To clarify my statement about coyotes that getaway from a stand; I wouldn't hunt an area immediately after a kill just because there was another one with it that got away. If the area holds enough coyotes to substantiate another stand I'll make it... but one streak of fur after a kill doesn't rate another visit for me. I definately hang with a stand after a kill, even after bumping coyotes off a field- but I don't plan my day around such situations. You've got to deal with the cards you're dealt- everyones a winner and everyones a loser.
That's just me- but I'm certainly not as experienced or succesful as some of you guys. Maybe my coyotes are exactly like yours and I'm just too dense to understand them. I'm open minded enough to believe that.
Posts: 615 | From: Indiana | Registered: Dec 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
Brad Norman
Okie Dokie
Member # 234
|
posted September 22, 2006 08:52 PM
If I call a spot that I believe should have produced a response in the morning, I have no problem going back that same afternoon and calling it again. I have done this many times and been lucky enough to kill a coyote while sitting in the exact same spot I had called from that morning. I always thought that they had simply not been there when I called them earlier.
Higgins-I'm very interested in the GPS animations you mentioned. If I had read this post a little more comprehensivley I probably would have figured it out. Could you please explain what you are talking about a little more in detail? Thanks.
Posts: 298 | From: Oklahoma | Registered: Aug 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
JD
HONORARY OKIE .... and Tim's at fault!
Member # 768
|
posted September 22, 2006 09:08 PM
quote:
If I call a spot that I believe should have produced a response in the morning, I have no problem going back that same afternoon and calling it again. I have done this many times and been lucky enough to kill a coyote while sitting in the exact same spot I had called from that morning. I always thought that they had simply not been there when I called them earlier.
Very good point Brad, I do the same thing from time to time.
--------------------
Jason
--------------------------------------
What do Obama & TA17Rem have in common........both are clueless asshats!!!
Posts: 1456 | From: NE. | Registered: Dec 2005
| IP: Logged
|
|
Cdog911
"There are some ideas so absurd only an intellectual could believe them."--George Orwell.
Member # 7
|
posted September 23, 2006 05:53 AM
Jason,
I don't think we disagree on many points of behavior with the coyote. I regard your interpretation of your coyote's behavior as being quite accurate. Hope you didn't take my comments othewise. It's the conditions under which we call that differ.
I'm of the school that a coyote isn't necessarily a coyote is a coyote... Local factors influence their behavior, although their behavioral infrastructure is somewhat consistent from region to region. For years, I have insisted that the coyotes in my region can be more difficult to coerce into responding, with the reason being summed up in two simple words: dog wagons. If you've never called coyotes in an area where hunting them using greyhounds is far and away more common than any other means, you probably would not understand the impact that wagons have on coyotes. Combine that with the fact that Kansas' actual huntable acreage is a very, very small percentage of the total land mass (somebody has to feed all you guys), you understand that a lot of sportsmen are concentrated on a relatively small land mass where everyone takes their pot shots at coyotes while hunting everything from deer to pheasants and quail, going to church, grade school field trips, etc. (Never understand why someone would blow a perfectly good deer stand because they can't control the urge to shoot at a mangy old coyote.) By Christmas (if not Thanksgiving in some areas), coyotes are being displaced by hunters 3-4 days a week if not more. Every one of those instances results in a butt full o' birdshot and quickly, they become nocturnal and wary as hell. Like Rich said, often the only thing you might see of a coyote is the top third of their head when you see a pair of pointy ears along a crestline at a distance. Calling one across a mile of open countryside and two county roads is something you'll never see here after October. I know it happens because I've seen it elsewhere. Just not here.
I may bitch and moan about how hard my coyotes are to call, but as you said, it's the hand I've been dealt. This is where I was born and raised, it's where I learned to call, where I work and where my family has called home for five or six generations that I know of. If I was to choose a new address based solely on callable coyotes, this sure as hell wouldn't be it. LOL But, two years ago, I tried to convince my wife to let me accept a lateral transfer at work to Scott's Bluff, Nebraska so I could be in the kind of country that Q hunts in. Strangely enough, her earlier stance that, "Where ever you are is home for me" changed to, "Hell no! You said there isn't anything up there but f-in' cows, coyotes and Q and I don't want to live where there's nothing for me to do, too!" Personally, I think she's still a bit flexible and I may get her convinced yet. ![[Wink]](wink.gif)
--------------------
I am only one. But still, I am one. I cannot do everything, but still, I can do something; and, because I cannot do everything, I will not refuse to do something that I can do.
Posts: 5438 | From: The gun-lovin', gun-friendly wild, wild west | Registered: Jan 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
stevecriner
UNKNOWN-before he was famous?
Member # 892
|
posted September 23, 2006 06:22 AM
I hunt a paticular area also until it does not produce. Here where i am at in missouri i am somewhat limited to land i can hunt and visit certain spots frequently. Ive called the same area the same day and been sucessful and many night after stands that have been sucessful. But i also hunt what looks like the perfect stand several times and dont call in any coyotes. I dont hunt very many coyotes with virgin ears or have not had there ass shot at from the road time after time. Keep up the good replies. This is a good oprutunity for some of us to learn a little more than we knew yesterday. And plus with my problem with remembering stuff i can come back and read it again.
--------------------
"I love coyotes and put up with dogs....My neighbor has a slew of them."
Posts: 321 | From: missouri | Registered: Jul 2006
| IP: Logged
|
|
|
UBBFriend: Email this page to someone!
Printer-friendly view of this topic
