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Author
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Topic: Idaho Fish and Game
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Barndog
Knows what it's all about
Member # 255
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posted April 04, 2007 06:16 AM
http://www.kpvi.com/Global/story.asp?S=6322522
Did I read that right. Lets kill 75% of coyotes to increase fawn survival because those fawns that coyotes kill will die anyway.
Next time Idaho Fish and Game will educate their PR people.
Posts: 185 | From: Idaho | Registered: Dec 2003
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Rich Higgins
unknown comic
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posted April 04, 2007 07:43 AM
Wow. Jennifer Jackson has the double-speak down well. Or is she really that obtuse?
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Kokopelli
SENIOR DISCOUNT & Dispenser of Sage Advice
Member # 633
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posted April 04, 2007 07:59 AM
Besides the twisted satistics that Barndog brings up, a couple of points come to mind.
".....last year 342 coyotes were removed....."
"Each year Fish & Game provides 100 grand to Wildlife Services to SUPPLEMENT predator control efforts."
Seems to me that if Game & Fish would start taking that 100 grand to the fur sale and bid coyote pelts up to about $100 per each, they would be money ahead and have a whole lot less coyotes once the word got out.
> Yeah, I know; bounties don't work, but $100 coyotes would buy a LOT of quality lap dances!!!
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And lo, the Light of the Trump shown upon the Darkness and the Darkness could not comprehend it.
Posts: 7580 | From: Under a wandering star | Registered: Apr 2005
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nd coyote killer
HUNTMASTER PRO STAFF
Member # 40
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posted April 04, 2007 09:10 AM
I don't think that any of us want to see $100 coyotes it brings the rif raf out in a big way
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"Sure are cocky for a starving pilgrim" - Bear Claw
Posts: 385 | From: On a hill | Registered: Jan 2003
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted April 04, 2007 09:30 AM
How discouraging. Total clueless chick armed with statistics describing programs that probably cannot be justified? Hell, I put more thought into when I water my lawn!
Good hunting. LB
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 31462 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
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Wiley E
Knows what it's all about
Member # 108
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posted April 04, 2007 01:44 PM
No Barndog, your interpretation is not correct.
Normally they lose 50% of their fawn crop. About 25% to coyotes and about 25% to mountain lions.
The way to increase their fawn survival is to remove 75% of the coyote population in the fawning grounds SO COYOTES CAN'T KILL 25% OF THEIR FAWN CROP.
That would increase mule deer populations so there would be more for humans to harvest.
There is no benefit in simply harvesting coyotes, period. The goal is to harvest 75% of the coyotes IN THE FAWNING GROUNDS DURING FAWNING.
Removing 75% of the overall coyote population would be cost prohibitive.
Keep in mind that this is MICROMANAGEMENT for specific areas at specific times of the year. The next place could have an overabundance of mule deer and/or antelope and that population could actually use more coyote mortality.
Removing 75% of the coyote population in and around fawning grounds DURING FAWNING will have a minimal impact on recreational harvest of coyotes. These coyote vaccuums will quickly fill back in by migrating coyotes prior to prime fur season just like they return to the rough country around certain sheep ranches during the fur season that have been worked during the summer.
Creating incentives for killing coyotes YEAR ROUND might get you a lap dance but it will have mimimal impact on fawning grounds without the removal of coyotes DURING FAWNING. This is the same principle as Delta Waterfowl's removal of skunks and raccoon to improve nesting being conducted DURING NESTING.
~SH~
[ April 04, 2007, 01:47 PM: Message edited by: Wiley E ]
Posts: 853 | From: Kadoka, S.D | Registered: Feb 2003
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3 Toes
El Guapo
Member # 1327
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posted April 04, 2007 01:54 PM
But Wiley, she did mistakenly say that the only fawns that the coyotes killed were the weak and starving.
I'm not buying into that, are you?
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Violence may not be the best option....
But it is still an option.
Posts: 1034 | From: out yonder | Registered: Apr 2007
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Wiley E
Knows what it's all about
Member # 108
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posted April 04, 2007 02:12 PM
3 toes,
I see the point of confusion.
As usual, the editor did a piss poor job of explaining this or of relaying the message and perhaps had a bias to make the coyote removal program look bad.
This coyote removal is occuring during the fawning grounds when most of the predation is occuring. Winter predation doesn't have a damn thing to do with fawn predation that occurs during extreme winter weather where coyotes do tend to harvest the sick and weak deer.
This is just one more typical anti ADC spin.
Jennifer Jackson was more than likely taken out of context by an editor with a bias that chose to make this program look bad by quoting only half the story. What she didn't tell you is that most fawn predation occurs during fawning and that coyote removal would be conducted during fawning.
If she was an editor worth her salt, she would have asked Jennifer Jackson what percentage of the fawn mortality caused by coyotes occured during severe winter weather and what percentage of fawn predation occurred during fawning. That would have created an accurate depiction of the situation but there is nothing worse than an editor with a bias that buys their ink in bulk tankers which is why Bush has such a low approval rating. Editors with a bias only tell you what they want you to hear.
~SH~
[ April 04, 2007, 02:15 PM: Message edited by: Wiley E ]
Posts: 853 | From: Kadoka, S.D | Registered: Feb 2003
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nd coyote killer
HUNTMASTER PRO STAFF
Member # 40
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posted April 05, 2007 05:50 AM
Well put Wiley except for the sick and the weak comment i disagree with. In the winter coyotes IN ND kill about whatever they want. They kill the strong and agile just as much as the sick and weak the problem is during extreme winter weather ALL prey animals are weak so everyone assumes that the coyotes are just cleaning up the garbage. Coyotes are oppurtunistic in every sense of the word if they stumble upon a sick or injured animal its going to die if a pair or trio of coyotes stubble upon a deer that is in a situation that gives them the advantage the deer is going to die period.
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"Sure are cocky for a starving pilgrim" - Bear Claw
Posts: 385 | From: On a hill | Registered: Jan 2003
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TA17Rem
Hello, I'm the legendary Tim Anderson, Field Marshall, Southern Minneesota Sector
Member # 794
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posted April 05, 2007 06:24 AM
I'm not saying it don't happen, but the coyotes don't do that here as far as i know. Yes they will prey on the smaller or weaker deer, but not the healthy ones. There is a farmer here where i live that has a 15-20 acre grove around his farm. In the winter the deer herd up in his grove and there canbe anywhere from 30-40 deer liveing there dureing the winter months. This farmer does not hunt or allow hunting on his property. I keep close tabs on the deer dureing most of the winter to see if the pair of coyotes that also live in this grove feed on the deer. Once in a while a crippled deer will show up and they only last about a month or two. Either it dies from its wounds or the pair of coyotes take it down. I have also watched the pair of coyotes try to kill a young deer but they did'nt get far, a large doe came out of the grove and chased off the coyotes.
In the area west of me where i go calling it can be a different story, on a ranch that i hunt on the coyotes killed two deer within days of each one. I don't know if they where young deer or older deer, but the coyotes did kill them. It turned out that there was a group of eight coyotes on his ranch so i could see how this would be possible.
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What if I told you, the left wing and right wing both belong to same bird!
Posts: 5064 | From: S.D. | Registered: Jan 2006
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nd coyote killer
HUNTMASTER PRO STAFF
Member # 40
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posted April 05, 2007 06:48 AM
I'll have to check my books again but i believe it is "track of a Coyote" by Crabtree that has the pics documenting a single coyote taking down and killing a 1-2 year old WT buck. This is the exception and not the rule of course but when there is more then one coyote they don't seem to have any problems killing the healthy deer.
I have seen coyotes take turns chasing a doe around in circles multiple times in the field but i usually interupt the fun ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
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"Sure are cocky for a starving pilgrim" - Bear Claw
Posts: 385 | From: On a hill | Registered: Jan 2003
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Kokopelli
SENIOR DISCOUNT & Dispenser of Sage Advice
Member # 633
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posted April 05, 2007 07:04 AM
TA17REM; Have you considered the possibilty that some of the crippled deer are the result of an unsuccessful coyote attack, to be finished at a later date when the victim is weakened from it's wounds?? Just a thought.
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And lo, the Light of the Trump shown upon the Darkness and the Darkness could not comprehend it.
Posts: 7580 | From: Under a wandering star | Registered: Apr 2005
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TA17Rem
Hello, I'm the legendary Tim Anderson, Field Marshall, Southern Minneesota Sector
Member # 794
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posted April 05, 2007 07:19 AM
![[Razz]](tongue.gif)
[ March 28, 2010, 09:10 PM: Message edited by: TA17Rem ]
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What if I told you, the left wing and right wing both belong to same bird!
Posts: 5064 | From: S.D. | Registered: Jan 2006
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Wiley E
Knows what it's all about
Member # 108
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posted April 05, 2007 09:07 AM
nd: "Well put Wiley except for the sick and the weak comment i disagree with. In the winter coyotes IN ND kill about whatever they want. They kill the strong and agile just as much as the sick and weak the problem is during extreme winter weather ALL prey animals are weak so everyone assumes that the coyotes are just cleaning up the garbage. Coyotes are oppurtunistic in every sense of the word if they stumble upon a sick or injured animal its going to die if a pair or trio of coyotes stubble upon a deer that is in a situation that gives them the advantage the deer is going to die period."
Coyotes are opportunists and sick and weak deer IN THE WINTER generally provide more opportunity than healthy deer. That's just a fact. I don't care whether you agree with it or not.
I know coyotes are capable of killing healthy deer but they are going to take what is easiest in most situations. I have seen many healthy deer killed by coyotes but I have never seen them kill a healthy deer over a sick one.
I did not say they ONLY target the sick and the weak but they sure as hell aren't going to take a healthy deer if they can kill a weak one due to their opportunistic nature.
~SH~
[ April 05, 2007, 09:08 AM: Message edited by: Wiley E ]
Posts: 853 | From: Kadoka, S.D | Registered: Feb 2003
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tlbradford
Rimfires are MAGIC on COYOTES! If you do your part
Member # 1232
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posted April 05, 2007 09:39 AM
They are oppurtunists to the greatest degree. When we have a heavy snowfall and 12"+ remains for an extended period. The top part of the snow gets a good crust. The deer break through and the coyotes can run along the top. When this happens the coyotes really eat well. Healthy or not a targeted deer is most likely going to die. A healthy animal and weak animal side by side. I have to agree that the weak animal is going to get taken down almost every time.
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"Dan Carey ain't that special" - LB
Posts: 423 | From: Spokane Valley, WA | Registered: Mar 2007
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted April 05, 2007 09:43 AM
Maybe Wiley is right, but it does seem to me that, more often than not, it doesn't come down to selecting deer A or deer B; one apparently healthy and the other crippled. At least in some of my areas where winter is a lot less harsh.
Being opportunistic as they are, it may be the fact that a deer has made a tactical error?
A friend (known since grade school) watched a doe jump in the lake, while he was bass fishing, chased by two coyotes. They just waited and watched while the deer eventually tired, and swam back into shore, where they cut her off as she raced up the hill. In the heavy cover, he couldn't see the scrap, but had no doubt of the outcome.
Good hunting. LB
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 31462 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
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nd coyote killer
HUNTMASTER PRO STAFF
Member # 40
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posted April 05, 2007 09:44 AM
quote:
I did not say they ONLY target the sick and the weak but they sure as hell aren't going to take a healthy deer if they can kill a weak one due to their opportunistic nature.
Yep
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"Sure are cocky for a starving pilgrim" - Bear Claw
Posts: 385 | From: On a hill | Registered: Jan 2003
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Wiley E
Knows what it's all about
Member # 108
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posted April 05, 2007 10:40 AM
Leonard: "Being opportunistic as they are, it may be the fact that a deer has made a tactical error?"
Certainly but wouldn't you acknowledge that sick and weak deer tend to make more tactical errors than healthy deer?
I've seen them kill healthy deer on the ice. I've seen them kill healthy deer in deep snow. I've seen them kill healthy deer when they were bunched in a feed yard. If there is one limping, lagging behind (sick and weak), it's simple predatory nature to target that animal.
I also know that once coyotes target a certain animal, they usually stay with that animal.
The lie that has been continually repeated by our opponents is that coyotes and wolves ONLY target the sick and weak and that's what guys like ND get sensitive about as do I. Facts are still facts.
Wolves will take a healthy moose but a sick or weak one is a lot easier.
~SH~
[ April 05, 2007, 10:42 AM: Message edited by: Wiley E ]
Posts: 853 | From: Kadoka, S.D | Registered: Feb 2003
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3 Toes
El Guapo
Member # 1327
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posted April 05, 2007 11:23 AM
Wouldn't ALL fawns be considered the weakest deer in the herd?
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Violence may not be the best option....
But it is still an option.
Posts: 1034 | From: out yonder | Registered: Apr 2007
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nd coyote killer
HUNTMASTER PRO STAFF
Member # 40
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posted April 05, 2007 11:44 AM
You're right scott
quote:
The lie that has been continually repeated by our opponents is that coyotes and wolves ONLY target the sick and weak and that's what guys like ND get sensitive about as do I. Facts are still facts.
I won't argue that they are going to take the young/weak/sick when they are available because that is just the law of nature but there isn't enough of those animals to support the predators so there is PLENTY of healthy animals taken at all times of the year.
That is the point that i was tring to make thats all ![[Wink]](wink.gif)
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"Sure are cocky for a starving pilgrim" - Bear Claw
Posts: 385 | From: On a hill | Registered: Jan 2003
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted April 05, 2007 12:14 PM
quote:
That is the point that i was tring to make thats all
I agree with that assesment. If they only ate the sick and injured, they would often go hungry.
Good hunting. LB
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 31462 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
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Wiley E
Knows what it's all about
Member # 108
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posted April 05, 2007 12:24 PM
3 toes: "Wouldn't ALL fawns be considered the weakest deer in the herd?"
In the spring certainly.
In the winter, only if the other animals are equally healthy. A malnourished or sick adult doe would be easier prey than a healthy fawn in the winter.
A healthy fawn in the winter is still a difficult animal for a coyote to take down unless there is some outside circumstance working against them (ice, deep snow, malnourished, etc). A healthy deer will kick the hell out of a coyote. I've seen healthy doe deer and antelope chase coyotes and kick the hell out of them. Have even heard reports of coyotes being killed by healthy deer and antelope.
I still believe the author of the article was confused between the objective of the control program during fawn drop and wintertime depredation.
~SH~
Posts: 853 | From: Kadoka, S.D | Registered: Feb 2003
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nd coyote killer
HUNTMASTER PRO STAFF
Member # 40
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posted April 05, 2007 12:37 PM
quote:
I still believe the author of the article was confused between the objective of the control program during fawn drop and wintertime depredation.
Without a doubt!!
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"Sure are cocky for a starving pilgrim" - Bear Claw
Posts: 385 | From: On a hill | Registered: Jan 2003
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3 Toes
El Guapo
Member # 1327
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posted April 05, 2007 03:50 PM
I was just refering to your statements about doing control work during fawning times Wiley. As the article reads to me they were trying to explain that the fawns are weak and suffer the highest mortality, which they do. I think the news lady was just trying to spin it to the age old misnomer that only the weak and sick are preyed upon. So IMHO obviously during fawning periods all fawns are generally the weakest link at that time of year.
Just because your from South Dakota, don't think your going to get the best of ol Three Toes. It would take a Fed to do that.
[ April 05, 2007, 03:52 PM: Message edited by: 3 Toes ]
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Violence may not be the best option....
But it is still an option.
Posts: 1034 | From: out yonder | Registered: Apr 2007
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Tim Behle
Administrator MacNeal Sector
Member # 209
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posted April 05, 2007 05:55 PM
I don't think that a coyote ever intentionally targets a sick, weak or injured animal of any species.
I think that they target anything that gives them an opportunity, they are just more successful at taking the sick, weak and injured.
And if you want to increase fawn survival, don't bother taking out the coyotes, just introduce Groundhogs to the area. Coyotes would much rather eat Groundhog than a deer.
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Personally, I carry a gun because I'm too young to die and too old to take
an ass kickin'.
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