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Author
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Topic: ADC and urban coyotes
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Redfrog
Knows what it's all about
Member # 3068
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posted August 13, 2008 03:12 PM
Ok Rich Let's give this a try.
I have little knowledge of how ADC works in other places. Where I have done ADC work, no licence was required.
Some of the work I've done was for Fish/Wildlife branches and organizations that had animal control contracts with municipalities. I also have done and continue to do ADC work for local ranchers.
Most of the local work is done in exchange for access to hunt, during hunting season.
I started handling aniaml complaints including but not restricted to coyotes in the early 70's. I did nuisanxce trapping for the F/W branch at that time as well. The coyote complaints were mostly disappearing pet problems in the urban areas and livestock issues in the rural areas.
I've read what you think about calling or dealing with the urban coyote, and I also see that anyone who has a different point of view must be wrong.
Unfortuntely I don't see it that way. My methods and my reasons for killing problem coyotes are apparently different than yours. It seems to be your mission to convince me I'm wrong. Of course that is why I refer to waht you do as "Virtual Hunting"
The truth of the matter is that neither of us will change the other's mind about the complexities, consequences or reasons for calling or killing urban coyotes.
We may simply have to agree to disagree on those points. Hey at least we would agree on something.
If you want to discuss methods or techniques, by all means let's do that. If you want to convert me, then I'm not interested.
I tell the religious guys that knock on my door the same thing. I don't conversion, I'm happy in my little swamp.
I do have an interest in discussing hunting of any kind.
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."Political Correctness is a doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical liberal minority, and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is
entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end."
Posts: 31 | From: Alberta | Registered: Aug 2008
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Rich Higgins
unknown comic
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posted August 13, 2008 04:12 PM
quote:
Ok Rich Let's give this a try.
"I have little knowledge of how ADC works in other places. Where I have done ADC work, no licence was required.
Some of the work I've done was for Fish/Wildlife branches and organizations that had animal control contracts with municipalities. I also have done and continue to do ADC work for local ranchers."
USDA WS has a volunteer program in which the volunteer must register with the agency to gain access to the contracted lands and to set foot in a WS vehicle. Is that true in Alberta?
"Most of the local work is done in exchange for access to hunt, during hunting season."
I understand that. Tyler and I offered free coyote removal to Missouri goat farmers in order to gain access to calling areas. Mostly private land there and the land owners don't permit hunting and calling access to strangers.
"I started handling aniaml complaints including but not restricted to coyotes in the early 70's. I did nuisanxce trapping for the F/W branch at that time as well. The coyote complaints were mostly disappearing pet problems in the urban areas and livestock issues in the rural areas.
I've read what you think about calling or dealing with the urban coyote, and I also see that anyone who has a different point of view must be wrong."
Not true. I question everyone about most everything and I'm constantly rewarded with absolute jewels of information from experienced callers. This board is replete with predator callers with long and varied knowledge who have seen things that I have not seen and know things that I do not know. An open mind and the willingness to ask is all that is required for me to benefit from the knowledge and experience of these men. It's available to you as well. For a small price.
Unfortunately I don't see it that way. My methods and my reasons for killing problem coyotes are apparently different than yours. It seems to be your mission to convince me I'm wrong. Of course that is why I refer to waht you do as "Virtual Hunting"
I don't know if I believe you are wrong or right because you have never stated your methods and reasons to me for killing problem coyotes. You have sidestepped my questions and ridiculed me for being only able to call "tame", "citified" urban coyotes, "virtual hunting" as you call it.
"The truth of the matter is that neither of us will change the other's mind about the complexities, consequences or reasons for calling or killing urban coyotes."
That is obviously true of your closed mind. However, you have never stated to me what you believe those complexities, consequences, and reasons are. If they are credible you may very well change my mind. I hope to learn something from everyone I speak with or read about. I just finished an absolutely marvelous book entitled
" Coyotes, Trappers, Sheepherders and Urbanites" by Frank Turkowski who is a an Adjunct Professor of Biology, wildlife research biologist, and former government trapper for the USDA WS. On page 3 of the book he explained a behavior that I had an incomplete understanding of. When I read the paragraph I was honestly delighted because it made perfect sense and I was holding a book that had the potential of harboring any number of wonderful little nuggets just like that one.
Perhaps I will learn something from you.
"We may simply have to agree to disagree on those points. Hey at least we would agree on something.
If you want to discuss methods or techniques, by all means let's do that. If you want to convert me, then I'm not interested.
I tell the religious guys that knock on my door the same thing. I don't conversion, I'm happy in my little swamp.
I do have an interest in discussing hunting of any kind.
"
I'm not a missionary. Converting heathens just doesn't interest me. ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
[ August 13, 2008, 04:23 PM: Message edited by: Rich Higgins ]
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted August 13, 2008 04:16 PM
WHAT? THAT'S IT?
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 31462 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
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Rich Higgins
unknown comic
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posted August 13, 2008 04:28 PM
It's a start, Leonard. I asked a specific question and addressed some of his concerns. We will see if he wishes to continue . What were you expecting?
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Redfrog
Knows what it's all about
Member # 3068
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posted August 13, 2008 05:01 PM
Good read. What's the price?
I'm really busy now, but I'd like to continue later.
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."Political Correctness is a doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical liberal minority, and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is
entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end."
Posts: 31 | From: Alberta | Registered: Aug 2008
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rainshadow1
Knows what it's all about
Member # 899
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posted August 13, 2008 05:10 PM
For the guys in the bleachers, or who have run off to quickly pop up some popcorn, Bring us up to speed: What's at issue here? Is it the actual carring out of ADC work, government sanctioned or otherwise, or is it the behavior patterns of Coyotes who are living in the wide variety of areas where they do the damage?
[ August 13, 2008, 05:11 PM: Message edited by: rainshadow1 ]
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- - Steve
RainShadow Game Calls & Custom Knives
Cougar E-Sound Library, Hand Calls, & Call-In Story Library.
www.rain-shadow.com
Posts: 152 | From: NW Washington | Registered: Jul 2006
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Rich Higgins
unknown comic
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posted August 13, 2008 05:12 PM
quote:
Good read. What's the price?
An open mind.
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Okanagan
Budding Spin Doctor
Member # 870
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posted August 13, 2008 06:37 PM
I had the same question as Rainshdow and almost posted it earlier. I think I've followed the entire topic in various threads on different boards and I don't have the slightest idea what the differences are in hunting coyotes between Rich and RF except for possibly one opinion. That is whether calling coyotes and not shooting them causes them to eat children. I didn't think RF really believed that but maybe so.
That's one bit of possible difference, but anything else in the wide range of tactics etc. is an unknown.
Posts: 269 | From: 49th Parrallel | Registered: Jun 2006
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Rich Higgins
unknown comic
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posted August 13, 2008 07:07 PM
Len, Rdfrog and I have no differences of opinion concerning tactics, strategies, complexities or consequences of calling not only urban coyotes but ANY coyotes because we have never discussed them.
The basic issue here is the fact that Redfrog and I have held an abiding grudge for each other for a couple of years. Any post directed at me , and vice versa, generally contain at least one jab at the other. Redfrog thinks that it annoys me if he says that I can only call Tame, Citified coyotes and that I do not hunt real coyotes. He tosses the virtual hunter jab in occasionally. That is the basis for the Urban Coyote thread on PM. That one did not bode well for the reputations of quite a few posters on that silly thing. Scott Huber totally annihilated their 8 pages of nonsense with one post on the Coyote College thread in this forum.
Essentially, Redfrog tries to make the claim that urban coyotes are not "real" coyotes that they are easy to call, it requires no skill to do so, and he states that he has arrived at this conclusion through his experiences removing many urban coyotes in the course of his ADC duties. They are easy. No challenge. Aside from that I do not know anything about Redfrogs experience, knowledge or skill level. Might be fun finding out.
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Spawn
Knows what it's all about
Member # 3073
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posted August 13, 2008 07:21 PM
Had a quaint rebuttal for the toad,but apparently the Server hasn't the requisite mustard to hang it (having connectivity issues)...which may have been a good thing,as it's often more humorous to pay slack on the rope..
Carry on Professor.
[ August 13, 2008, 09:17 PM: Message edited by: Spawn ]
Posts: 24 | From: Hell | Registered: Aug 2008
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TA17Rem
Hello, I'm the legendary Tim Anderson, Field Marshall, Southern Minneesota Sector
Member # 794
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posted August 13, 2008 08:49 PM
quote:
Redfrog thinks that it annoys me if he says that I can only call Tame, Citified coyotes and that I do not hunt real coyotes.
RF told me once by E-mail that i only called and killed one coyote in my life time...LOL
We all know you can call wild coyotes and you do a very good job of it as well... ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
RF just dose'nt know !! ![[Razz]](tongue.gif)
[ August 13, 2008, 09:07 PM: Message edited by: TA17Rem ]
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What if I told you, the left wing and right wing both belong to same bird!
Posts: 5064 | From: S.D. | Registered: Jan 2006
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csmithers
unknown comic
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posted August 13, 2008 08:57 PM
quote:
I've read what you think about calling or dealing with the urban coyote, and I also see that anyone who has a different point of view must be wrong.
Maybe it's the fact that those that speak of the ease of calling in these "urban" coyotes ARE wrong (for the most part). Or that they don't have any experience doing it and are talking straight out of their ample asses.
It takes more than one trip into town to find out what it takes to call them in CONSISTENTLY! And the failures that sometimes go along with it...
[ August 13, 2008, 08:59 PM: Message edited by: smithers ]
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MULE
Knows what it's all about
Member # 63
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posted August 13, 2008 09:15 PM
"RF told me once by E-mail that i only called and killed one coyote in my life time"
Damn, he assumes alot. Probably because he is so pretentious.
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Kickin' it on the Steppes. Livin' in my Yurt
My Hockey Mom can beat up your Community Organizer
Posts: 334 | From: Ulan Bator | Registered: Jan 2003
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Spawn
Knows what it's all about
Member # 3073
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posted August 13, 2008 09:23 PM
I'd postulate that if the slimy bloated toad would try prying his kunt from the kouch instead of "armchair hunting" he may be surprised at what one can get done in a day..
Posts: 24 | From: Hell | Registered: Aug 2008
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MULE
Knows what it's all about
Member # 63
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posted August 13, 2008 09:28 PM
I also checked the list of REGISTERED outfitters in Alberta.
Couldn't find him. Either by name or business name. Then I ran thru the whole list. Ain't there
Maybe he could clear that up the next time he comes here waving his belly around
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Kickin' it on the Steppes. Livin' in my Yurt
My Hockey Mom can beat up your Community Organizer
Posts: 334 | From: Ulan Bator | Registered: Jan 2003
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Krustyklimber
prefers the bunny hugger pronunciation: ky o tee
Member # 72
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posted August 13, 2008 11:21 PM
By it's very nature, ADC work, is generally not done in an urban environment, but in sub-urbia, or more likely in a rural setting.
I don't know of a single city or township, in which you are allowed to discharge a firearm...
Hunting access is another thing, not on my side of the city limits sign.
And farms, they aren't really part of the urban landscape (very often), are they?
The true urban environment, is the territory of the Nuisance Wildlife Control Operator (NWCO), who's job entails more than just killing animals, and who may not ever use a firearm in his line of work.
My own NWCO license is a few layers deep, requiring a fur trapping license, as well as specific training/certification, and an approved permit (background check, etc.).
A major portion of what I do, is construction/handyman related, repairing the damage done by wildlife, after or in an effort to remove the offender.
Many of the animals I deal with, can't be killed, migratory birds, bats, and frogs, to name a few.
And as I stated in the other thread, there aren't many options to use, to remove a coyote from a city neighborhood.
Not even the cable restraint, or the Collarum, are legal here.
And with 1:1000 cage nights/per catch, the norm, trapping is basically off the table.
Here, shooting coyotes or any other mid to large sized predator, will only ever be done by a guy with a badge (or a Govt. issued firearm, at the least).
*I heard a rumor they got a Navy Seal to take out the coyote that was terrorizing a local military installation (after the Seattle Parks dept. put a stop to the USDA's guy setting up in the park. ![[Wink]](wink.gif) )
To me, the term "urban ADC work" is an oxymoron.
Krusty 
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Think about how stupid the average person is, then realize that half of them are stupider than that!
Posts: 1912 | From: Deep in the Blue Ridge Mountains of Virginia | Registered: Jan 2003
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Tim Behle
Administrator MacNeal Sector
Member # 209
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posted August 14, 2008 04:56 AM
Damn Krusty! I'm impressed!
You nailed the exact reasons that I called bullshit on him in the other thread.
If anyone has ever tried to legally control coyotes in an Urban setting, he would know that it is one of the hardest tasks to accomplish.
Most of your best tools are either restricted, or not allowed even by permit, and even when you can get a permit to trap or use a firearm, the Liability of making even the smallest mistake will keep you awake at nights.
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Personally, I carry a gun because I'm too young to die and too old to take
an ass kickin'.
Posts: 3160 | From: Five Miles East of Vic, AZ | Registered: Jun 2003
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Rich Higgins
unknown comic
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posted August 14, 2008 07:23 AM
quote:
I don't know of a single city or township, in which you are allowed to discharge a firearm...
WS provides their agents with suppressed firearms, rimfire (22mag) and centerfire, and they DO discharge them within the cities of AZ. in the course of their duties.
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George Ackley
Knows what it's all about
Member # 898
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posted August 14, 2008 07:42 AM
quote:
WS provides their agents with suppressed firearms, rimfire (22mag) and centerfire, and they DO discharge them within the cities of AZ. in the course of their duties.
Sand box kid its the same here also
they kill deer in the parks of Philadelphia with
suppressed fire arm, and they can do it 24/7
with the right ADC PAPER WORK I i think it can be done anywhere and over bait
[ August 14, 2008, 07:42 AM: Message edited by: George Ackley ]
Posts: 465 | From: PHILA . PA | Registered: Jul 2006
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Wiley E
Knows what it's all about
Member # 108
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posted August 14, 2008 08:20 AM
Red Frog,
You're introductory post said nothing. It eluded to differences of opinions between you and Rich on urban coyotes but said nothing about what those differences of opinion were. If you came here to gather support for your views on urban coyotes, the least you could have done is present those views.
Obama: "IT'S TIME FOR CHANGE"
Liberal Sheep: "Baaaaaaaah"
Independent thinker: "Can you be more specific, what changes"
Without knowing any details of your discussion, it's hard to form an opinion one way or the other. I do know this much, wherever coyotes reside, if you paint them as all being easy or all being difficult then you fail to understand the differences in behavior from one coyote to the next within any environment. The more negative experiences a specific coyote has in it's life related to humans, the more they will behave accordingly. A coyote is a coyote from the standpoint of their basic instincts for survival but they all modify their behavior to fit their individual environments.
CONDITIONED RESPONSE!
~SH~
[ August 14, 2008, 08:21 AM: Message edited by: Wiley E ]
Posts: 853 | From: Kadoka, S.D | Registered: Feb 2003
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Dan Carey
unknown comic
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posted August 14, 2008 09:03 AM
I've never found the search engine at PM to be an asset in researching subject matter, to substantiate a position.
Maybe, that's the root cause of the slow responses in this matter.
Nevertheless, we will get an opportunity to read the combined thoughts from Jim and associates, in due course?
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Greenside
seems to know what he is talking about
Member # 10
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posted August 14, 2008 09:11 AM
Redfrogs view on taking care of a rural coyote problem: You go out,sit down and start calling and then keep shooting till the coyotes stop coming. Problem solved and case closed. Damn easy ain't it!
[ August 14, 2008, 09:11 AM: Message edited by: Greenside ]
Posts: 719 | From: IA | Registered: Jan 2003
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Krustyklimber
prefers the bunny hugger pronunciation: ky o tee
Member # 72
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posted August 14, 2008 09:41 AM
Tim,
The minute I got my licenses, I "trumped up" a reason to trap the coyotes that live in the park/golf course behind my house, and set about figuring out how I might be able to pull that off.
The more I studied, the coyotes and the situation, the more I realized what I really am up against.
Thanks, it's not all that impressive, once you take a good hard look at the problem, though.
RH "WS provides their agents with suppressed firearms, rimfire (22mag) and centerfire, and they DO discharge them within the cities of AZ. in the course of their duties.
K "Here, shooting coyotes or any other mid to large sized predator, will only ever be done by a guy with a badge (or a Govt. issued firearm, at the least)."
Rich,
I looked into a USDA job (trapping starlings), but lacked the qualifications.
I also looked at the USDA guy's rimfire rifle, "that'd do".
(*By having it issued, he wasn't personally responsible for the suppressor permits.)
(**I myself am limited to 770FPS, and I can't remember how many decibels...)
But, if I took the time to look inside myself, I'd see I'm far from qualified to do his very difficult job, too.
I should have stated, "I don't know of a single city or township, in which the general public, or the average NWCO are allowed to discharge a standard firearm..." ...but I thought that was implied?
George,
The Sandbox Kid... I like it!
Scott,
Nice to see you around, a voice of clarity in the fog is always nice.
2nd independent thinker: "And, Mr. Oba-aa-aah-ma (think sheep sound), what makes you think you are qualified to bring this change about?"
Ahh crap I wasn't gonna say anything political...
Krusty
I gotta go, and drive 100 miles, to get an otter cage, so I won't be back for a while.
There's way too much "other money" to be made, without ever considering coyote control, in the city.
I don't have time to discuss how it's the leash law, just like Scott mentioned, that created a lack of credible threat, a negative "conditioned response" that used to keep coyotes away, and timid.
Or to share my "Urban Tolling; an exercise in surprise!" story.
The short version is, at least one coyote is a whole lot less uppity, than he was before he got his ass whipped.
Being the alpha male, I have to wonder how that effect will trickle down?
Oh yeah I gotta go...
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Think about how stupid the average person is, then realize that half of them are stupider than that!
Posts: 1912 | From: Deep in the Blue Ridge Mountains of Virginia | Registered: Jan 2003
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Redfrog
Knows what it's all about
Member # 3068
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posted August 14, 2008 03:58 PM
Rich the answer to your question is No.
Why so touchy. I simply refer to calling wild coyotes as the real deal, and calling urban coyotes as “Virtual hunting” to differentiate between the two. If you don’t agree with my terminology, then carry on letting it annoy you.
I think calling wild/rural coyotes and killing them is “Real hunting”
I think calling urban coyotes and taking their picture is “Virtual hunting”
I do not think ADC work is easy. I just make a distinction between ADC work and recreational hunting. I do think it is harder to do ADC in an urban environment than in a rural one. I say this because of the restraints put on the ADC person, by his “employers” not because the animal is harder to catch or call. It is a lot easier to just to call a coyote and kill it or set a snare when you don’t have to deal with incidental catches and discharge of firearms regulations.
I do think urban coyotes are easier to call than rural coyotes. Citified coyotes don’t get shot at when they come to a call, unless you are doing ADC work and are permitted the use of firearms. So what happens to a coyote that comes to the call in the city?
Oh yeah nothing.
“The more negative experiences a specific coyote has in it's life related to humans, the more they will behave accordingly. A coyote is a coyote from the standpoint of their basic instincts for survival but they all modify their behavior to fit their individual environments.”
Wiley, can you explain what you mean by “Accordingly” or perhaps tell me in what way he would “modify” his behavior?
I happen to think it is a bad choice to call an urban predator without killing it. I think it habituates that animal to human contact without a negative consequence.
In the Vancouver area of British Columbia in the last two weeks there have been 4 black bears shot in residential areas. No they weren’t called in there, but they certainly were comfortable being there and little/no fear of humans. There were several other bear complaints during that time period as well. BTW that is one of the areas I did ADC work.
No before someone runs his mouth about bears not being coyotes, the premise of losing their fear of humans is the same. Does calling coyotes in an urban situation CAUSE coyotes to attack children? Nope . But calling without killing or negative consequences will make them more comfortable around humans, thereby increasing the POSSIBILITY of a coyote/human encounter that would not end well if the human was a small child.
I DO NOT BELIEVE CALLING COYOTES IN URAN AREAS CAUSES THEM TO LOSE THEIR MINDS AND ATTACK SMALL CHILDREN. It simply increases the chances of an encounter when they lose their fear of humans.
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."Political Correctness is a doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical liberal minority, and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is
entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end."
Posts: 31 | From: Alberta | Registered: Aug 2008
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csmithers
unknown comic
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posted August 14, 2008 07:12 PM
With your logic RedFrog:
Calling in a "wild" coyote and letting it get downwind of you is great. Watching as it hits the afterburners as it heads for parts unknown is DESIRABLE!
Because, using Frog Logic, the next time you call the area THAT coyote should come in with even more zeal & zest than before because it experienced no "consequence", except getting a whiff of Toad stool.
Pardon the pun! No offense!
[ August 14, 2008, 07:18 PM: Message edited by: smithers ]
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