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Author
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Topic: Dens
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Cdog911
"There are some ideas so absurd only an intellectual could believe them."--George Orwell.
Member # 7
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posted May 29, 2010 01:45 PM
This post is directed at either Cal or Randy, but anyone can contribute, of course.
Last week, I was called to assist on a supposed coyote problem west of town in the sandhills of central Kansas (not as storied and legendary as the Nebraska sandhills, but sandy, nonetheless). Turns out that what the reporting party witnessed was a pair of dirty white angus hybrid calves playing with their typical all black angus buddy in the tallgrass and he mistook what he saw as two coyotes chasing the black calf.
Anyway, while working the area, we came upon a freshly cleared coyote den on the NE facing side of a ridgeline. To the SW of this hole was a second hole, about a hundred yards further along the same ridgeline, that, too, had been cleaned out that same day. We know that because we'd had rain showers all morning, off and on, and both of these had freshly dug dirt thrown from the openings with several sets of adult tracks going in and out. No, I did not huff the hole, and no, I did not count the number going in compared to the number coming out to see if their might be someone home. What I also did not see was any indication that the puppies were there, i.e., no small tracks, no bones or animals parts, no chewed sticks, nothing but a few tracks. I could only conclude that the female had tweaked these two holes in preparation for possibly moving the puppies.
Since this area is usually covered in head-high tall grasses and standing crops, seeing an active den hole is a rarity and one you generally simply stumble upon while doing something else. I found these because this pasture had been burned this Spring and the grass is presently barely six inches tall, brilliant green, and these two freshly dug mounds of red sand stand out like the proverbial turd in the punch bowl. I would like to locate the actual den this group is using to get some pics and am curious about a few things.
First, is there any hard and fast rules about how closely den holes are located, relative to one another?
How far will the bitch move the pups, and how far is too far?
Both sites are along the top of the ridgeline well above any possible flooding concerns. The area is a mixture of pastureland (burned and regreening), unburned grazed pasture to the north, thick pockets of sandplums and cottonwoods, stock ponds and quarter-section timbers with most tracts being 60-160 acres in size, all with either flat or gently undulating hills. In this pasture, the ridgeline where these dens are found is a small collections of chops sloping down to a series of stock ponds.
If it helps any, here's an aerial image of the area. The two red dots are the dens I know of. The north south road to the west of them is at a distance of about 150-175 yards.
[ May 29, 2010, 01:46 PM: Message edited by: Cdog911 ]
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I am only one. But still, I am one. I cannot do everything, but still, I can do something; and, because I cannot do everything, I will not refuse to do something that I can do.
Posts: 5438 | From: The gun-lovin', gun-friendly wild, wild west | Registered: Jan 2003
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Cdog911
"There are some ideas so absurd only an intellectual could believe them."--George Orwell.
Member # 7
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posted May 29, 2010 01:47 PM
The pic didn't come through large enough to see much, but the dens are east of the road, due east of the pivot on the irrigation circle.
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I am only one. But still, I am one. I cannot do everything, but still, I can do something; and, because I cannot do everything, I will not refuse to do something that I can do.
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nd coyote killer
HUNTMASTER PRO STAFF
Member # 40
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posted May 29, 2010 04:52 PM
Most likely clean outs to move the pups to yes. If she isn't pressured into moving them and just moving them on her own due to fleas ect then there is a good chance that the active den is close. Two to three weeks you will have a good chance if you spend some time at night around there you should be able to hear the pups howl. If its a good sandy area like you say you should be able to start on a perimeter and track the female in. Look for tracks that cross trails coming and going is always nice. Tracks leading down a cow trail can get you going but when you run into tracks crossing the trails or dropping into the drainage ect you are getting hot. They will a lot of the time be a straight line to the den. There should be a fairly well polished knob in front of the hole that is active.
Hope this helps.
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"Sure are cocky for a starving pilgrim" - Bear Claw
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Kokopelli
SENIOR DISCOUNT & Dispenser of Sage Advice
Member # 633
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posted May 29, 2010 05:12 PM
I'm no wiz kid on dens, but it seems that a trail camera might be in order.
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And lo, the Light of the Trump shown upon the Darkness and the Darkness could not comprehend it.
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tlbradford
Rimfires are MAGIC on COYOTES! If you do your part
Member # 1232
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posted May 29, 2010 07:05 PM
Just spitballing, but could the coyote been hunting something that had taken up residence in the holes/dens?
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"Dan Carey ain't that special" - LB
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TA17Rem
Hello, I'm the legendary Tim Anderson, Field Marshall, Southern Minneesota Sector
Member # 794
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posted May 29, 2010 08:40 PM
Badger dens.. ![[Wink]](wink.gif)
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What if I told you, the left wing and right wing both belong to same bird!
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Cdog911
"There are some ideas so absurd only an intellectual could believe them."--George Orwell.
Member # 7
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posted May 30, 2010 06:59 AM
Yes, Tim. At one time. But, then again, most coyote dens were badger dens at one time or another.
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I am only one. But still, I am one. I cannot do everything, but still, I can do something; and, because I cannot do everything, I will not refuse to do something that I can do.
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted May 30, 2010 07:45 AM
Cowboy up. You just gotta get in there and huff it.
Good hunting. LB
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 31462 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
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Cdog911
"There are some ideas so absurd only an intellectual could believe them."--George Orwell.
Member # 7
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posted May 30, 2010 08:46 AM
LOL Sniff sniff
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I am only one. But still, I am one. I cannot do everything, but still, I can do something; and, because I cannot do everything, I will not refuse to do something that I can do.
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Randy Roede
"It's Roede, like in Yotie
Member # 1273
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posted May 30, 2010 04:56 PM
Lance, lots of shades of gray in a deal you ask for a black and white answer.
All of the events or lack of events will be based on what is available and how close. These things vary when talking remote areas to areas with a lot of human interaction.
The first den should have a water source within a reasonable distance so the pups once weened can walk to water and scurry back to the hole. Water is the key the first let's say 8 weeks. Usually, you see them punch in dens in some of the most unusual places.
When the pups get more mobile the shade cover etc will dictate the location of a hole if any is being used at all. They will roam from location to location within a territory.
The original hole now should show a matting of the grass from the pups lounging by the hole etc. Here is one from this a.m.
This is a view from the second hole about 50 yards above the hole in the previous picture.
They will move pups from my experiences a mile or more usually much less than that but it usually is based on why and what is available according to needs etc. Country, terrain, water, human activity, etc. and why they are moving. On their own or because they got spooked.
LB heres my HUFFER he's never wrong!! He's got to earn his keep!!
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The only person dumber than the village idiot is the person who argues with him!
Posts: 669 | From: Pierre SD | Registered: Mar 2007
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Cdog911
"There are some ideas so absurd only an intellectual could believe them."--George Orwell.
Member # 7
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posted May 30, 2010 06:00 PM
Thanks, Randy. Good information. No tamped down grass or packed down soil around the hole. Yet. Nor, any good trails.
On an unrelated note, but this topic got me to thinking... Did anyone else see where Barry Osama told the press corps that his young daughter boldly and nosily asked him if he'd plugged the ho yet? Darn kids. Kinda private thing to asking about, if you ask me, but that bunch is a little funny, ya know.
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I am only one. But still, I am one. I cannot do everything, but still, I can do something; and, because I cannot do everything, I will not refuse to do something that I can do.
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted May 30, 2010 06:50 PM
Is it just me, or is his ho just plain ugly? She's no Alica Keys, that's for sure. Fashion trend setter my ass.
Good hunting. LB
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 31462 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted May 30, 2010 06:52 PM
Randy, I see hawk feathers behind your huffer and it looks like he has more down the hole?
Good hunting. LB
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 31462 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
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Randy Roede
"It's Roede, like in Yotie
Member # 1273
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posted May 30, 2010 07:06 PM
LB, that be a hen pheasant wing. That country is crawling with them. Not to tough to find food for the pups there. This guy was a rotational grazer with limited fencing and 1200 yearlings in tight pastures and some coyotes in the middle of the whole deal blowing them thru fences etc.
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The only person dumber than the village idiot is the person who argues with him!
Posts: 669 | From: Pierre SD | Registered: Mar 2007
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Kokopelli
SENIOR DISCOUNT & Dispenser of Sage Advice
Member # 633
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posted May 30, 2010 07:45 PM
No, Leonard;
It's not that his ho is ugly. It's that his ho is angry. She smiles with her mouth but not with her eyes. ![[Mad]](mad.gif)
Fashion?? Give me a cowgirl wearing jeans & a t-shirt that has an easy laugh any day. ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
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And lo, the Light of the Trump shown upon the Darkness and the Darkness could not comprehend it.
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted May 30, 2010 11:01 PM
quote:
She smiles with her mouth but not with her eyes.
That's very observant, koko. Yeah, she's an angry bitch.
Good hunting. LB
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
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Cdog911
"There are some ideas so absurd only an intellectual could believe them."--George Orwell.
Member # 7
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posted May 31, 2010 06:27 AM
teeth like a piranha don't help...
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I am only one. But still, I am one. I cannot do everything, but still, I can do something; and, because I cannot do everything, I will not refuse to do something that I can do.
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Cdog911
"There are some ideas so absurd only an intellectual could believe them."--George Orwell.
Member # 7
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posted May 31, 2010 11:09 AM
Randy et al., this is the den we've been watching. The other looks exactly like it. No discernable trails to and from. No trampled grass. Just the loose dirt brought out front that you can see.
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I am only one. But still, I am one. I cannot do everything, but still, I can do something; and, because I cannot do everything, I will not refuse to do something that I can do.
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted May 31, 2010 11:15 AM
I see similiar and have always concluded them to be, "last years" den. Whether they (eventually) get reused or not, can't say?
Good hunting. LB
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
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Lone Howl
Free Trial Platinum Member & part-time language police
Member # 29
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posted May 31, 2010 11:18 AM
Hey, if the economy dont pick up, I could just move in there? A little small, but cozy.
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When tyranny becomes law, rebellion becomes duty.
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Cdog911
"There are some ideas so absurd only an intellectual could believe them."--George Orwell.
Member # 7
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posted May 31, 2010 12:40 PM
Please correct me if I'm wrong, but I recall seeing, reading and hearing in a number of places from reputable sources that, if left undisturbed and not destroyed, a pair will use dens from one year to the next, repeatedly. True?
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I am only one. But still, I am one. I cannot do everything, but still, I can do something; and, because I cannot do everything, I will not refuse to do something that I can do.
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted May 31, 2010 01:14 PM
Awaiting the experts....I think that is a true thing, but not a sure thing.
I'm pretty sure they tend to take over existing burrows but not necessarily. It could be a 50/50 proposition whether they reuse last years site or go with something new? To them.
That's another interesting question. Would any stray bitch clean out an existing den site, or is it invariably the former tennant that uses it next year?
Good hunting. LB
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
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Cdog911
"There are some ideas so absurd only an intellectual could believe them."--George Orwell.
Member # 7
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posted May 31, 2010 02:18 PM
You're correct, Elbee, in saying that nothing is absolute with coyotes. Mia culpa. Also, I think it's probably correct to say that existing dens are first come-first serve. I bet this is an issue that's triggered more than one border war in the coyote world.
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I am only one. But still, I am one. I cannot do everything, but still, I can do something; and, because I cannot do everything, I will not refuse to do something that I can do.
Posts: 5438 | From: The gun-lovin', gun-friendly wild, wild west | Registered: Jan 2003
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TA17Rem
Hello, I'm the legendary Tim Anderson, Field Marshall, Southern Minneesota Sector
Member # 794
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posted May 31, 2010 02:25 PM
Not an expert but my coyotes will use the same den from year to year. If the breeding female is killed off one of the previous female pups will take it over. if by chance the whole family group is killed then it may take some time for another to move in and then its a 50/50 chance they may use the same den..
One of the reasons why I still see coyotes with mange in certain areas is from useing the same infected den, you remove the whole famaly and a new comer moves in and sets up shop useing another hole and the mange is cleared up for a time..
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What if I told you, the left wing and right wing both belong to same bird!
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Randy Roede
"It's Roede, like in Yotie
Member # 1273
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posted May 31, 2010 03:45 PM
Yep, they will use the same hole if left alone on ocassion. The features in that area made it a good place to den, the water source is the key. The more readily the water the less likely they will repeat using the same hole. It doesn't take much of a source either. It will be for the most part a source that has been there for awhile and not just from a recent dea
No doubt if need be they could find a spot to dig their own. It's just easier to find something to remodel than build.
It doesn't take much of a dig etc. for them to be happy with a den hole. May be only 3-4 foot in about 2 foot below the surface. Some you can spade out in short order and others are a tough deal, need a backhoe.
Lance it looks like possibly an old one if it is close to water?? Oval entrance looks coyotee the vegetation at the entrance makes it look vacant. They do check about every hole they find for food etc. It would make an excellent trap location.
Bad news the Huffer found a Porky today!! Anyone know the place in nature for them bastards. God I hate them!! Good thing I was close or he would have been a mess, only got about 30-40 on the outside before I could get him off it. It was about to get ugly.
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The only person dumber than the village idiot is the person who argues with him!
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