|
Author
|
Topic: Staying ahead of the learning curve
|
Wily E
unknown comic
|
posted January 23, 2011 11:56 AM
It's easy for experienced callers to fall into the trap of getting discouraged when comparing how things used to be to to the way things are. Nobody has been more guilty of this than I have.
I admit, it is discouraging to see the army of weekend callers and contest hunters and all the newbies out there blasting their e-callers from conspicous places. I quit watching coyote calling shows because they seemed to place more emphasis on calling coyotes in to film rather than trying to figure out how they could kill a higher percentage of what they called. Finding a coyote that hasn't heard standard calling techniques is a difficult task by the time most of them are even prime.
The number of coyotes out there that have been educated to common calling strategies is especially taxing for those of us who have to clean up these messes all year long. Then again, if it were so easy, our job wouldn't be necessary.
We long for the days when we had so much ground and so many willing and eager coyotes at our disposal but let's face reality, those days are gone unless what we do is different than what others are doing or recreational coyote calling losses it's popularity. There's nothing anyone can do to change the fact that many of the calling strategies many of us have used for many years are now in common practice.
To self reflect, how many of us are really self-made men who didn't learn anything from someone else? I certainly learned a lot from those who called coyotes before me and were willing to teach and yes sometimes that knowledge came at a cost.
Interestingly we make disparging remarks towards the same beginners that we once were. Pretty arrogant when one thinks about it.
I don't know about you but I can't say I haven't learned a few things from these internet discussions so why do I begrudge someone else from learning from them as I have?
I admit, I detest the commercialization of the sport of coyote calling particularly when it comes to those who sell the knowledge and experience of others for their own personal gain and noteriety but it's reality just the same. When we pass knowledge on, we lose any control of how it will be used just as those who taught us lost control of how their knowledge would be used.
The fact is, we've all learned from others with equal to more experience than we had.
Rather than wasting time and energy on the army of callers that we currently have to deal with, why not focus on strategies to deal with it? Hey, now there's a thought!
The fact is, recreational coyote calling is not what it once was unless you have exclusive rights to a coyote refuge with willing participants. Emphasis on the "willing participants" aspect because some areas of high coyote population require totally different techniques to gain response even with virgin eared coyotes due to the changes in social behavior of coyotes in higher populations. Some areas you have to be right on top of them to get a response.
The bottom line is in order to be highly successful, we will have to change our focus from common strategies to new strategies that account for calling pressure and changes in coyote behavior that changes from place to place and changes with time.
I can say, with total confidence, that there is not a coyote alive that cannot be called regardless what they have been exposed to. The question I keep asking is with what particular sound and from what type of call and from what direction (source of danger vs. comfort zone) and from what distance. Gaining success now requires knowledge of what a particular group of coyotes has been exposed to.
As I have stated before, there is no doubt in my mind that coyotes, once negatively exposed to it, can differentiate between live and duplicated sounds particularly recorded sounds. This was actually a shocking revelation to me. I had no idea until it slapped me in the face.
At one time I was an advocate of the diversity of recorded sounds but anymore, I think more natural sounds will be the future direction for those demanding higher success. Perhaps by the time these natural sounds become common, we can go back to what has always worked because nobody else will be using it.
Coyotes will always be coyotes from the standpoint of their natural instincts to survive. They adapt their behavior to fit their environment but their basic instincts for survival will remain the same no matter where they reside.
Coyotes will still eat, they will still reproduce, and they will still be attracted to their own kind to some degree.
I just visited with a long time caller who called coyotes in the heyday who is now finding success with totally different techniques. Perhaps he'll share those techniques with you some day. LOL!
~SH~
[ January 23, 2011, 12:19 PM: Message edited by: Wily E ]
IP: Logged
|
|
Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
|
posted January 23, 2011 12:18 PM
Good post, Scott. Some of it just reinforces my attitude that the good old days are gone and the popularity of calling predators is not a good thing.
But, change of subject. If we are to consider getting together, as you suggested, the window of opportunity is narrow. It looks like Vic has his hands full with his move to Florida and I have not heard much from Dave, but if it is to happen, somewhere around his stomping grounds is where it aught to be.
In the meantime, you paint a dreary picture, my friend.
Good hunting. LB
--------------------
EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 31462 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
Wily E
unknown comic
|
posted January 23, 2011 12:25 PM
I think I am finally done editing.
It may be a dreary picture but my point is that I think we need to refocus our thought process.
In fact, I think the track that you have been on for many years with night calling is enough change to make that difference. I do not have a lot of night calling experience but I do believe coyotes respond differently at night. In otherwords, a wary coyote in daylight hours may not be as wary at night. Your thoughts?
I think getting together in Dave's area might be our best option but not sure on the timing. A spring hunt (March / April) might be a lot of fun and better weather.
Dave, any thoughts?
~SH~
[ January 23, 2011, 12:26 PM: Message edited by: Wily E ]
IP: Logged
|
|
the bearhunter
HM PROSTAFF & MIDWEST REGIONAL GURU VOTED MOST HANDSOME MINNESOTAN
Member # 3552
|
posted January 23, 2011 01:49 PM
do coyotes get educated?? you bet!!!!
jsut finished a 2 day calling contest. the first day, we seen 23-24 and only killed 1.this area gets hit hard by callers,road hunters,snowmobilers. most coyotes that day were totally indifferent to our calls or headed the other way at the first note.second day we went along ways into areas that i'm more familiar with and know most of the ranchers in the area. this area is fairly remote with few roads or people. calling a bunch of them the night before we left, not 1 rancher had had anyone ask for coyotes this year other than me. that made the decision to hunt that area alot easier even though it was 170 miles from base. the difference in responce rate was night and day!!!!. coyotes came in much more readily that day ![[Smile]](smile.gif) some were indifferent but none we know of ran the other way.ended up killing 6 in about 5 1/2 hours than had to beat feet back to base.
Posts: 1049 | From: minnifornia | Registered: Jan 2010
| IP: Logged
|
|
Possumal
HONORARY CALLS FORUM MODERATOR edit: AND TOKEN LIBERAL
Member # 823
|
posted January 23, 2011 01:51 PM
Scott, I think you are dead on correct in your comments. Areas where I had no competition five years ago are now flooded with newbies who have been over to Cabela's or Sportsman's Warehouse and armed themselves with all kinds of hand calls and the ecaller of their choice.
I feel like I am as much to blame in this part of the country as anybody, having posted a lot of pictures on various forums and what I thought was good advice for some of the newer hunters. It kind of reminds me of what happened to bass fishing when BASS came along. It got to the point where you couldn't find a place to launch your boat that didn't have a tournament going on.
Even teaching your grandsons and an occasional new friend has its negative exponential effects as they take their friends and so on. I have to deal with that though as teaching grandsons and now even great grandsons has more positive points connected to it than negative. Take them hunting and you don't have to wonder where they are or where they'll be later on.
All of my permissions to hunt that I get nowadays are exclusive to me alone, as that is the only way I can control when to call and where to call with any measure of confidence. There are a lot of fellows out there asking permission in every county within 100 miles of central Kentucky, so I felt it necessary to take drastic steps.
--------------------
Al Prather
Foxpro Field Staff
Posts: 781 | From: Nicholasville, Ky. | Registered: Mar 2006
| IP: Logged
|
|
fgf4
unknown comic
|
posted January 23, 2011 02:03 PM
Excellent Wily E!
That is extremely well written and brings up many great points.
I think what you have said explains many of the feelings more experienced hunters are dealing with due to the rapid growth and technological advancement in predator calling.
I'm saving this one to my files if that's ok with you!
Nikonut
IP: Logged
|
|
Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
|
posted January 23, 2011 02:12 PM
Scott, I'm good for almost anything but currently, I have things scheduled for Nevada, and Oklahoma and Texas, so squeezing something in, in the next couple months or so would take some luck. I have to be back every so often, just to show this cat who's boss.
Totally off subject. Last night I had dinner on the Queen Mary, in Long Beach. Last time I was on board was for a wedding about 25 years ago.
My daughter's daughter is starting the spring semester at CalState Long Beach, and they brought her down from where they live, in San Rafael. So, rather than staying at a cookie cutter hotel, they opted for the Queen Mary. It was interesting to see their rooms, it's a hotel besides having three restaurants on board, and banquet facilities. The thing that struck me was all the wood paneling along the halls and inside the rooms. My guess is maybe a million dollars worth of fancy fiddleback and other burls, but gone, never to be seen again.
Launched in 1936, I guess it was the epitome of luxury back in the day and they have preserved a lot of that in the ship's hardware, the ventilation system and the plumbing in the rooms, it's really quaint. I think they made a good choice and perhaps the girls, (18 &13) will appreciate it from a future perspective. They had their own suite. Today, it's off to the Dorms and the drive back up north. Shelley, (daughter) said they are the exact same dorms she stayed at when she attended Brooks, over twenty years ago. More like 25, I think?
Okay, back to the learning curve.
Well, I can tell you this much, Scott. Hunting coyotes at night couldn't be more different than daylight. Other than a hand call, nothing is transferable from one to the other. We typically spend close to an hour to prepare for a transition day to night or night to day. Put stuff away and drag stuff out. Don't even hunt the same stuff. Well, not always, but there are different things to look for, at night, the way we do it.
Good hunting. LB
--------------------
EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 31462 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
TA17Rem
Hello, I'm the legendary Tim Anderson, Field Marshall, Southern Minneesota Sector
Member # 794
|
posted January 23, 2011 02:31 PM
Scott as always good post and thanks for shareing...
quote:
The bottom line is in order to be highly successful, we will have to change our focus from common strategies to new strategies that account for calling pressure and changes in coyote behavior that changes from place to place and changes with time.
I agree 100%... As I have been finding out some of the old basic stuff just dose'nt work very well in some areas, there are certain things or sounds I'm learning to use that are new to me and seem to be makeing a big difference in the responses I get on my stands. I know some guys that don't get a response think the coyotes just are'nt hungry or they are call shy...Rather than try to come-up with an excuse I look for things I can do to change this so they do respond.
I know you asked Leonard about how much different night time coyotes respond vrs. day time and would like to chime in on what little bit I have picked up so far with my coyotes at home...
My coyotes are vocal at nite and are more willing to leave the edge of heavey cover and come across open ground, there comfort level seems to be much higher. Some will respond to prey distress but with the majority it also takes some coyote vocals to get them moveing.
Some of the coyotes will even act or be more aggressive than they would dureing day time calling.. Still learning and haveing a great time doing so...
--------------------
What if I told you, the left wing and right wing both belong to same bird!
Posts: 5064 | From: S.D. | Registered: Jan 2006
| IP: Logged
|
|
Q-Wagoner
FREE TRIAL MEMBERSHIP
Member # 33
|
posted January 23, 2011 06:46 PM
Texas Leonard! You are going to have a high chair made before you know it! LOL When are you making that tritrip? Shaw and I are going to be headed down ther soon.
Good hunting.
Q,
Posts: 617 | From: Nebraska | Registered: Jan 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
Baldknobber
Knows what it's all about
Member # 514
|
posted January 24, 2011 08:02 AM
"A wary coyote in daylight hours may not be as
wary at night."
Now thats a mouthful. Here is my point. Here in Missouri you cannot hunt at night with the aid of a light or with an electronic caller. Last week we had 3 inches of snow and would you believe the luck, we also had a full moon? So I go to three stands alone Thursday night and four stands with my friend Shane Roark on Friday night. These were all places that I had called in the past. I called using a Burnham Bro. mini-blaster, and called at least one coyote on all seven stands. Seven productive stands in a row in the daytime here in Missouri would be unheard of. It was a great time but the conditions are only right for this about once a year.
Leonard was right in saying that your techniques are different at night. We found that you had to be hidden just as well and to let them get within shotgun range, even though we had a rifle also. Two people are better than one when hunting at night with no light. We only killed one coyote, but began to figure it out just before we quit.
[ January 25, 2011, 05:38 AM: Message edited by: Baldknobber ]
--------------------
JTBMO
Posts: 202 | From: Missouri | Registered: Jan 2005
| IP: Logged
|
|
UTcaller
NEVADA NIGHT FIGHTER
Member # 8
|
posted January 24, 2011 10:27 AM
I have to agree with you Scott.None of us are really self made men when it comes to calling coyotes.We all learned from someone.
And yes I get as discouraged as anyone at what has happened and is continuing to happen to the sport of Predator calling.
Commercialization is a double edged sword.Yes you have alot more tools and such at your disposal,and you can shorten your learning curve a considerable amount with all the new gadgets and Technology such as DVD's,Digital Ecallers,rangefinders,decoys,etc. But it also brings everyone out of the wood work corrupting the sport,wanting to make a name for themselves.Then you have the new guys heading to the field with all there new coyote calling gear with hopes of putting 100 coyotes on the ground in a weekend because they saw it done on "the DVD".lol When they really don't have a clue as to what it takes to be a successful caller.So they just educate the hell out of them.Which in turn makes it more difficult for the guys that have the experience and the understanding to kill the numbers they used too.
So what do you do?
Well first off we just started going on road trips further and further away from the "crowds" of new callers.But with the internet and people talking about how great they did here or there.Even some of those areas are getting over run now with callers.
So to be a succesful caller in todays world I feel like you have to be alot more proactive and be way more adaptive to be successful.Especially in areas that do get alot of calling pressure.
I know it sounds like a bitch session,but I will say that with the flood of information and technology in the sport of calling and all the new callers marching afield every year,it has made me a better overall caller.FWIW
Good Hunting Chad
Posts: 1612 | From: Utah | Registered: Jan 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
|
posted January 24, 2011 11:11 AM
Well, at least I found out who this Todd Bledsoe is that has sent me a few emails.
--------------------
EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 31462 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
|
posted January 24, 2011 11:55 AM
I may not be self made, because I didn't hammer my plowshare into a shooting iron, or put an engine on my wagon, but starting out, there was damned little information out there. I had to learn it the hard way, trial and error.
You should have seen the aircraft battery we used to bring along, just incase we needed to walk up a cat. I still have it. It's inside an aluminum case I built for it, had a carrying strap and a handle made out of half inch EMT. I bet that battery helped me kill (what?) a few dozen bobcats that I would have had to leave alone because they were just not coming a step closer.
Take mist, for instance. Back in the day, we used to buy a couple filets if fish and let it bake in the sun for a couple days and then put in in one of those lettuce bags with all the holes in it and tape it to our front bumper. Compared to misting, it was a stoneage solution for downwind coyotes.
Another little item I still have is a Motorola 8 track tape deck. I built another aluminum enclosure and mounted it with two speakers, drilled a gazillion holes in the sides and it had a plug because that aircraft battery with the neat spill-proof caps also had a receptacle on top. A regular 110V but it worked just fine for 12vdc.
Nowadays, people can't imagine this because there is so much commercial stuff available. My wife told me that I was nuts not to market these and other things I had to quite literally, make by hand. For one thing, if it gave me an edge, I wasn't about to share it with anybody and besides, I thought the market was limited to less than a thousand people and I knew most of them personally.
Then there was the lights. God, I have made so many lights. Some people, it was a cottage industry because others were not very good at building stuff, and a light was one thing that was indispensable, if you were going to hunt the best part of a weekend.
There is a man who had a business building radios for all the Baja 1000 mile racers. So, naturally, the lights he made incorporated an array of buttons and toggle switches for communicating with the driver; where to turn, where to park as well as commands for after a stand, start the engine and go ahead were separate because a driver can get antsy and drive away with a rifle sitting on top when the guy in the back isn't quite ready. All the buttons had little lights on the dash so a driver could see them and know instantly, what the guy in back wanted him to do, turn around, back up, TURN THE FRIGGIN ENGINE OFF, I HAVE A SET OF EYES THAT JUST LIT UP AT THE SOUND OF THE ENGINE STARTING.....I'm sure there was a button for that?
I have said it a number of times. You guys don't know how easy you have it. Literally. There is nothing you need that you cannot buy. You know what? We had a difficult time finding CAMO! There just wasn't hardly any available. Now look at it.The market is flooded with any type of camo your little pampered heart desires; including SNOW CAMO. Back in the day, I used to wear a green plaid shirt that worked quite well and I didn't feel stupid because I wasn't dressed properly.
Oh yeah, we have to stay ahead of the curve. Don't make me laugh.
Good hunting. LB
--------------------
EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 31462 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
DAA
Utah/Promoted WESTERN REGIONAL Hunt Director
Member # 11
|
posted January 24, 2011 12:07 PM
I'm still game to try and get something going if we can. April is out for me, have too much going on then already. I might be able to swing some time in Feb. or March though. But I'd need a pretty firm idea of when and and for how long soon so I can block off the time. Too much longer without a plan and I'll probably have those last couple days of vacation time allocated to something else.
I've got a few ideas on where, depending on weather at the time and what you guys want to do (camp or have a roof).
My email is dave at rmvh dot com, might not hurt to try and get our arms around at least the beginnings of a plan if there's going to be any hope of pulling it off this year.
- DAA
--------------------
"Oh yeah, they're gonna talk to you, and talk to you, and talk to you about individual freedom, but they see a free individual, it's gonna scare 'em." -- George Hanson, Easy Rider, 1969.
Rocky Mountain Varmint Hunter
Posts: 2676 | From: Salt Lake City, UT | Registered: Jan 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
UTcaller
NEVADA NIGHT FIGHTER
Member # 8
|
posted January 24, 2011 12:20 PM
Yeah I hear ya about the camo.Hell there wasn't much camo available even in the 80's let alone the 60's and 70's.Not that you really need it that much anyways.lol
Good Hunting Chad
Posts: 1612 | From: Utah | Registered: Jan 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
DAA
Utah/Promoted WESTERN REGIONAL Hunt Director
Member # 11
|
posted January 24, 2011 01:04 PM
Oh, and the subject at hand...
All I can do is agree. Things are tough all over!
But I have to confess, I have not adapted very well. I still do things pretty much like I always have. It just doesn't work as well as it used to, LOL! And it’s not that I haven’t tried new things, but for me, the old tried and true still seems to work best, most of the time. Not as well as it used to, but, it still seems to be the highest percentage play most of the time.
What adaptation I have done, has been something like the longer roadies Chad talked about. I've become, I think, pretty good at finding pockets of relatively unpressured coyotes. My approach to finding them is again "I think" fairly sophisticated. But, that approach is something I don't talk about on the internet, LOL! And of course, I'm willing to put in some miles to do it.
And, as a purely recreational caller, I get to decide on my own priorities. I don't "need" to bust my ass working "tough" coyotes. I have the option of just going somewhere else and finding easier ones. I've gotten pretty good at that.
And I also don’t “need” to put up big numbers, but, after simply making sure I’m having fun, putting up numbers is a priority for me. Keeping score still matters.
But! By this time of year, between weather and ground conditions shortening the field, time having passed for all the other hunters and contests to have their effect, etc., finding the pockets of easy ones on public land is damn near impossible. And my "lack of adaptation" starts to show! The basic fundamentals of hunting, that is, a nose for game and terrain reading skills, stealth, marksmanship etc., are really all I've got going for me this time of year and when those fundamentals aren't good enough, I'm in for some rough sledding...
- DAA
--------------------
"Oh yeah, they're gonna talk to you, and talk to you, and talk to you about individual freedom, but they see a free individual, it's gonna scare 'em." -- George Hanson, Easy Rider, 1969.
Rocky Mountain Varmint Hunter
Posts: 2676 | From: Salt Lake City, UT | Registered: Jan 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
|
posted January 24, 2011 01:55 PM
Okay, as long as I have Scott and Dave's attention.....for me I can go an time. Unless I have somebody penciled in on my dance card. That's a very old expression, from the days of Cotillions and Magnolias. And, before some wiseguy jumps in, before my time, as well.
So far all my dates are a little bit to a lot flexible one way or the other. Let's talk timeframes per email. Be sure to copy those involved; and TA, of course. He might have some solid gold input. (just kidding)
But seriously, I always wondered if a lefty turns counterclockwise with his buckethead rig? No, I would go counterclockwise, so they might pirouette clockwise? Does that sound right?
Good hunting. LB
Good hunting. LB
--------------------
EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 31462 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
UTcaller
NEVADA NIGHT FIGHTER
Member # 8
|
posted January 24, 2011 02:13 PM
Dave I agree numbers are not a huge deal for me either anymore.I mean sure I like to kill alot of coyotes and it is a bigger deal for me when I'm calling in Nevada than when I'm calling in Utah.But that's just because I expect to call alot of animals when I'm in Nevada.lol
I kind of gave up on calling in Utah a few years ago to head for greener pastures,felt like my time was better served going on road trips and killing "easy" "high population" coyotes.lol
But with the price of gas and time restrictions for me the last couple years I've made fewer road trips and have just worked over some of the areas here in Utah I had been calling for the last 25 or so years.Definitely tougher calling now than back then with all the calling pressure now but it has been VERY satisfying for me.Seems like I have to work alot harder for those hard to call coyotes and I feel like I'm getting better at as Scott put's it "calling "THE" coyote rather than "A" coyote.I don't kill nearly as many coyotes here as I do in Nevada but I feel just as successful just in a different way.
That being said I am headed west to the Coyote State Next week. Should be fun...
Good Hunting Chad
[ January 24, 2011, 05:00 PM: Message edited by: UTcaller ]
Posts: 1612 | From: Utah | Registered: Jan 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
Lonny
PANTS ON THE GROUND
Member # 19
|
posted January 24, 2011 04:13 PM
Vic's moving to Florida? Not that there is anything wrong with that, just never had him pegged as hanging his hat in an area that likely isn't the best coyote state.
Posts: 1209 | From: Lewiston, Idaho USA | Registered: Jan 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
|
posted January 24, 2011 06:43 PM
Yep, unless we can talk some sense into him!
--------------------
EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 31462 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
Kokopelli
SENIOR DISCOUNT & Dispenser of Sage Advice
Member # 633
|
posted January 25, 2011 04:27 AM
Vic's gonna go call 'gators??? ............... Say it isn't so!!!!
Speaking of camo; Any of you old farts remember the first time that you saw a camo t-shirt?? That was a really big deal at the time. ![[Cool]](cool.gif)
--------------------
And lo, the Light of the Trump shown upon the Darkness and the Darkness could not comprehend it.
Posts: 7580 | From: Under a wandering star | Registered: Apr 2005
| IP: Logged
|
|
Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
|
posted January 25, 2011 10:03 AM
Camo tee shirt? Yeah, you were wearing it, koko, and the image has troubled me, ever since.
--------------------
EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 31462 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
csmithers
unknown comic
|
posted January 25, 2011 11:24 AM
Mindless automatons
IP: Logged
|
|
Kokopelli
SENIOR DISCOUNT & Dispenser of Sage Advice
Member # 633
|
posted January 25, 2011 11:51 AM
El Bee;
If you don't like the outfits that I wear, stay out of Chipndales on senior's night. ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
--------------------
And lo, the Light of the Trump shown upon the Darkness and the Darkness could not comprehend it.
Posts: 7580 | From: Under a wandering star | Registered: Apr 2005
| IP: Logged
|
|
TA17Rem
Hello, I'm the legendary Tim Anderson, Field Marshall, Southern Minneesota Sector
Member # 794
|
posted January 25, 2011 03:38 PM
quote:
Speaking of camo; Any of you old farts remember the first time that you saw a camo t-shirt?? That was a really big deal at the time.
Camo!!! I thought they called it "tie-die"back then.. You know the stuff the Hippy's wore.. ![[Eek!]](eek.gif)
--------------------
What if I told you, the left wing and right wing both belong to same bird!
Posts: 5064 | From: S.D. | Registered: Jan 2006
| IP: Logged
|
|
|
UBBFriend: Email this page to someone!
Printer-friendly view of this topic
