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Author
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Topic: Which do you prefer?
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Cdog911
"There are some ideas so absurd only an intellectual could believe them."--George Orwell.
Member # 7
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posted June 29, 2005 02:43 PM
Here's a question that I've mulled over in my mind on several occasions and thought, "What the hell!" Let's throw it out there for a vote.
It's early season and you have a pack pretty much pegged. You are calling and the pack responds. You can see that one coyote is notably larger than the remainder of the group and you feel pretty sure that you're looking at a mature male and his offspring.
Which do you shoot first? Bear in mind that you'll probably be able to work this group over throughout the entire season and this most likely won't be a one time opportunity.
I ask this because I've faced this exact dilemma on several occasions. I usually shoot the old dog first on the premise that by removing his leadership and guidance, the pack dynamic will be in chaos for the next week or more and I may find the younger coyotes more susceptible to my calling on subsequent trips (especially if I incorportate howls to play upon the probable rallying that's happening as coyotes rassle to see who the next boss dog will be).
On the other hand, I read an article last year in which the author suggested that the best approach would be to shoot the young-of-the-year coyotes first because the alpha pair would be more prone to protecting them and stick around longer for a follow up shot. My experience and my logic disagrees with that suggestion. Along the lines of Leonard's one shot thread that made me think about this, I'll bet that a mature coyote that has become able to "learn", for lack of a better word, will learn from watching his offspring get blown away
and quickly refuse to respond to calling.
I recognize that I'm describing two very different circumstances here, but the morning I called in five and got two, I found myself (before the first shot) trying to guess which one to take first in order to set up the next shot. I quickly realized that this was coyote shooting and not a game of pool and that no matter which one I shot at first, all hell was fixin' to break loose and my second best shot would be anybody's guess.
What do you guys think?
[ June 29, 2005, 02:45 PM: Message edited by: Cdog911 ]
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I am only one. But still, I am one. I cannot do everything, but still, I can do something; and, because I cannot do everything, I will not refuse to do something that I can do.
Posts: 5438 | From: The gun-lovin', gun-friendly wild, wild west | Registered: Jan 2003
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Rob
Knows what it's all about
Member # 75
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posted June 29, 2005 02:55 PM
The male might wear the pants in the family but the female tells him which pair...kinda like in my family..get the boss female.
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"Where did all these #$%^&* Indians come from?" Gen. George Armstrong Custer
Posts: 224 | From: Clancy Montana | Registered: Feb 2003
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Kokopelli
SENIOR DISCOUNT & Dispenser of Sage Advice
Member # 633
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posted June 29, 2005 04:25 PM
Ok.....Is this a sport/fur or an A.D.C. situation?? In the early season a fur hunter might want to take a yearling and let the big guy prime up some more. A.D.C. would likely want to target the adult. I would think that putting the adult on the ground first would (maybe) confuse the young long enough for follow up shots. It's always a rush to get more coyotes on a stand than you have shoulders to carry them out on!!
Tough choice to make. In the real world.....take the high percentage shot.
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And lo, the Light of the Trump shown upon the Darkness and the Darkness could not comprehend it.
Posts: 7588 | From: Under a wandering star | Registered: Apr 2005
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted June 29, 2005 04:44 PM
quote:
In the real world.....take the high percentage shot.
There's my answer. LB
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 31490 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
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The Outdoor Tripp
Knows what it's all about
Member # 619
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posted June 29, 2005 05:06 PM
In the wide open I'll take the furthest dog first (if shot is makeable) then the next furthest and so on, figuring the closest coyote has the furthest time to run, offering me more time for the shot.
In close quarters, where I usually call, all bets are off. I just take the shot that presents itself.
[ June 29, 2005, 05:06 PM: Message edited by: The Outdoor Tripp ]
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The Outdoor Tripp
www.theoutdoortripp.com
"All great truths begin as blasphemies."
Posts: 805 | From: Texas | Registered: Mar 2005
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2dogs
Knows what it's all about
Member # 649
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posted June 29, 2005 05:39 PM
I prefer on a mutiple coyote situation. To shoot @ the farthest, then work my way back close. "Sargeant York" method. I have had the closer one run in my direction or right @ me by doing this. Especially when the closest "dog" was low in a valley & the farthest one, was up high on an opposing hill.
One of my Dad's friends, swore that if you shoot @ a pair of fox. Shoot the male{largest?} first. Because if you shoot the female first. The male will "almost always" bolt. Whereas the female won't run far, from the dead male.
Posts: 1034 | From: central Iowa | Registered: Apr 2005
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Rich Higgins
unknown comic
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posted June 29, 2005 06:20 PM
Lance, I understand the premise of your question and ideally, especially since you are going to continue to work the pack through the year, I would suggest that you take the mature male at first opportunity since he probably won't give you the opportunities later that the yoy will. Older mature males are an entirely different animal and I'm not at all shy about crediting them with the intelligence and learning abilities that I know they are capable of.
In the real world though, on a competition hunt, I take the bird in the hand approach.
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varmit hunter
Knows what it's all about
Member # 37
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posted June 30, 2005 03:00 AM
Most of my calling is for cattle killers, Sorry Tim, Not all of Texas is full of sheep. I take the big male first. Then come back in two to three days. Like Lance said they seem to be disorganized. I don't usually hear back from that rancher till next year. Then we start all over again.
Note to Tim. My part of Texas is full of Brahma cattle( Pronounced Bramer here). Any amours advances toward them usually involves Life Flight or the undertaker.
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Make them pay for the wind.
Posts: 932 | From: Orange,TX | Registered: Jan 2003
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NASA
Knows what it's all about
Member # 177
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posted June 30, 2005 03:05 AM
Since the basis of the question was future success on "return visits" to the group, I completely agree with Rich.
Posts: 1168 | From: Typical White Person | Registered: Apr 2003
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Melvin
Knows what it's all about
Member # 634
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posted June 30, 2005 11:18 AM
I might as well fire some of you up,but first,i want to say i agree with Kokopelli's last statement...quote:
(In the real world.....take the high percentage shot.)
Seems to me,some are in another world ,i know nothing about...The lead male,or(Alpha),"whatever" you want to call him,is a smart animal,i agree,but damn,i wouldn't have some to believe he is so smart that he sits in a low shady area reading sports afield and in the evening go to a high spot and sing the star spangled banner!...I have trapped and called him in,even though he had learned some smarts both ways...You adjust and play the game different with him...He isn't smarter than a human?...Unless he flew her in some kind of craft from,"another world"
![[Razz]](tongue.gif)
[ June 30, 2005, 11:32 AM: Message edited by: Melvin ]
Posts: 661 | From: PA. | Registered: Apr 2005
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varmit hunter
Knows what it's all about
Member # 37
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posted June 30, 2005 11:31 AM
Melvin. He did.
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Make them pay for the wind.
Posts: 932 | From: Orange,TX | Registered: Jan 2003
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Melvin
Knows what it's all about
Member # 634
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posted June 30, 2005 12:41 PM
Quote:
Melvin.He did.
varmint hunter,I laughed,untill tears got in my eyes,when you posted that ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
Now i'll add coal to the fire!..In the fantasy world,that might hold true,on that side of the Mississippi
[ June 30, 2005, 12:43 PM: Message edited by: Melvin ]
Posts: 661 | From: PA. | Registered: Apr 2005
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Cdog911
"There are some ideas so absurd only an intellectual could believe them."--George Orwell.
Member # 7
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posted June 30, 2005 12:54 PM
Melvin,
Maybe not, but thru the howling techniques that Master Higgins taught me, I have come to look more often for the whole damned family rather than the single coyote out for his daily jaunt. Displays of intrapack communications are fairly common, as I have learned, and lead me to ascribe to this animal a higher degree of "smarts" (again, for lack of a better word) than in any other game animal I have pursued.
Two seasons ago, Master Higgins related to me a story one day as I sat at his feet with the phone taped to the side of my head so I could take notes with both hands. ![[Wink]](wink.gif) In this story, he told of a pack of coyotes that approached him from the left early one morning in a suburban neighborhood. At a very short range, he witnessed the alpha male turn to his pups and mate, issue an audible vocalization heretofore undescribed, and which immediately compelled the entire pack to turn to their right, enter the shade of an acacia (sp?) bush where they laid down while "dad" investigated this strange intruder. Last season, I witnessed the same thing, in a manner of speaking.
I was calling on a damned awful windy day. I was about to get up and leave when I decided to glass a long tree row that I was sitting near. Over a quarter mile away, I saw a coyote at the end of the trees looking my way. I took my eye off him to get a call in hand and when I looked back, there were two. I began to call and they both came trotting toward me. Not far out into the open, the larger of the two turned to his left, and looked back at the smaller coyote. Immediately, the smaller coyote stopped, turned to its left and went back beneath the trees in the fenceline where it sat and watched what came to pass. Way too far and windy for me to have heard if he barked or just what the bigger coyote did, but the response was obvious and unchallenging. Dad died three minutes later with a 250-yard Hail Mary shot and five more coyotes that looked just like him ran out of the end of the hedgerow where they'd been sitting to witness the whole bloody mess.
Why didn't the others just come out to respond to the calls as well? What held them back when one - the biggest in the bunch - came right to me, or so to say?
Like you, I don't want to stir anyone up, but I've learned thru a lot of sweating and shaking to not take the first shot offered and, in doing so, have seen them do some funky stuff that I never would have believed had I not seen them with my own eyes. Those things that most people call Rich crazy for claiming to have happened are usually things he's witnessed long after the average guy would have taken the shot.
In most cases, I, too will take the highest probablility shot that is offered. My question is directed more toward those instances when you have several coyotes in front of you and you know you won't get but one (or two, God willing). If you can identify with some sense of confidence where each coyote fits into the hierarchy, and each one offers a relatively equal shot opportunity, which one do you shoot first and why? If you've never used a Higgins Howler and used Rich's technique, you may be saying, "Such an instance is too rare to even worry about." I used to not think about it. Then, I got an HH, found that my coyotes were responding in waves, where singles were the exception rather than the rule, and where, if I may go back to the billiards analogy, I saw the potential benefit of making one shot today, while still being able to set up my next shot for next week or the week after that. It becomes a real concern when you usually have at least two, often three, and as many as eight coyotes giving you the bad eye from less than a hundred yards out and in the open.
As I saw it, that pack looked to that male for leadership and guidance. He ran the show and it seems logical that his removal would trigger a period of greater vulnerability, much like that observed immediately after dispersal in the Fall when younger coyotes seem eager to make friends with the same interloper that one month earlier they would have confronted.
Rob-
Can you explain your observations more about how the A-female runs the pack. I'm curious about that.
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I am only one. But still, I am one. I cannot do everything, but still, I can do something; and, because I cannot do everything, I will not refuse to do something that I can do.
Posts: 5438 | From: The gun-lovin', gun-friendly wild, wild west | Registered: Jan 2003
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Melvin
Knows what it's all about
Member # 634
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posted June 30, 2005 01:44 PM
Lance,..In a way,it sounds like you think i'm attacking,Rich,with my post..Like you,i hold the highest respect for him...I consider him, one of the most knowledgable men on this board...My point is,the older males can be called in,for more than one time,"I have done it",If someone don't want to except the fact,it's fine with me...I know i fire guys up on this board and they get mad at me...But so far,i like every darn one of them...Even if,they don't care for me ![[Frown]](frown.gif)
Posts: 661 | From: PA. | Registered: Apr 2005
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Rich Higgins
unknown comic
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posted June 30, 2005 01:50 PM
Melvin said
Seems to me,some are in another world ,i know nothing about...
That is understandable Melvin and you really shouldn't feel badly about it. After all the Western coyote is an entirely different animal than the eastern variety. For the past 60 years the best callers in the world have been refining the Westerners gene pool by removing all but the most intelligent coyotes, leaving them to pass on those wonderful qualities to their pups thereby creating a "super" coyote in a relatively short period. The eastern coyote, which is fortunate enough to emigrate into a region where no one knows how to set up a stand, no one can call, and no one can shoot has not yet had to evolve to the Westerners potential. As you and the other eastern callers become more knowledgeable and proficient and the coyote adapts to the new challenge, you too will begin to observe behavior that will earn your respect. ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted June 30, 2005 03:11 PM
Geeze! That was straight out of, Troll 101. Perfectly executed. Grasshopper gets an A.
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 31490 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
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The Outdoor Tripp
Knows what it's all about
Member # 619
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posted June 30, 2005 03:24 PM
Rich is totally correct in his observation here.
This passing down of selective genetics has affected a number of species in the west, the Arizona sheep to name one.
[ June 30, 2005, 04:51 PM: Message edited by: The Outdoor Tripp ]
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The Outdoor Tripp
www.theoutdoortripp.com
"All great truths begin as blasphemies."
Posts: 805 | From: Texas | Registered: Mar 2005
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Kokopelli
SENIOR DISCOUNT & Dispenser of Sage Advice
Member # 633
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posted June 30, 2005 03:40 PM
Rich, didn't the road to improving the coyote's gene pool in the west start with 1080 removing the scavengers??
Tripp, I thought it was 'TheGreatStateOfTexas'(one word) where "The men are men, the women are scarce, and the sheep are scared to death"??
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And lo, the Light of the Trump shown upon the Darkness and the Darkness could not comprehend it.
Posts: 7588 | From: Under a wandering star | Registered: Apr 2005
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NASA
Knows what it's all about
Member # 177
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posted June 30, 2005 04:38 PM
Quote, "For the past 60 years the best callers in the world have been refining the Westerners gene pool by removing all but the most intelligent coyotes.."
That has a familiar ring to it.
Posts: 1168 | From: Typical White Person | Registered: Apr 2003
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Rich Higgins
unknown comic
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posted June 30, 2005 06:59 PM
Make that a "timeless ring', Tom, but just for you I will not use it again.
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R.Shaw
Peanut Butter Man, da da da da DAH!
Member # 73
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posted June 30, 2005 07:09 PM
I had to read this thread a couple of times before I figured out the meaning of Alpha coyote. Around here we call them veteran dog coyotes or rank dog coyotes. I guess they aren't interested in joining any fraternities.
Rich
Speaking for myself and as an easterner, I could not agee with you more.
Randy
Posts: 545 | From: Nebraska | Registered: Jan 2003
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Rich Higgins
unknown comic
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posted June 30, 2005 07:23 PM
Hey Randy, Mo is a midwestern state and is on the left bank of the Big muddy. Coyotes have been there forever. In fact Mo offered the first bounty on coyotes in 1825.
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Cdog911
"There are some ideas so absurd only an intellectual could believe them."--George Orwell.
Member # 7
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posted June 30, 2005 07:49 PM
M<elvin,
Sorry if I cam off that way. Didn't mean it. Just clarifying my direction there. Thanks for the input.
Rich,
That was the most eloquent example of stirring the turds that I've seen in a while. Gotta tear in my eye.
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I am only one. But still, I am one. I cannot do everything, but still, I can do something; and, because I cannot do everything, I will not refuse to do something that I can do.
Posts: 5438 | From: The gun-lovin', gun-friendly wild, wild west | Registered: Jan 2003
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R.Shaw
Peanut Butter Man, da da da da DAH!
Member # 73
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posted June 30, 2005 08:07 PM
Rich,
Speaking for myself and as a fellow westerner, I could not agree with you more.
Randy
Posts: 545 | From: Nebraska | Registered: Jan 2003
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted June 30, 2005 08:24 PM
Well, from here, it looks like MO is about 2,000 miles east.
Randy, did you get back from Hawaii, yet?
Good hunting. LB
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 31490 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
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