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Author
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Topic: Kansas predator loss thread
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Cdog911
"There are some ideas so absurd only an intellectual could believe them."--George Orwell.
Member # 7
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posted February 19, 2007 01:48 PM
I hear we have a problem. In order to adequately assess the severity of this problem, I've decided to start a thread. Each day, I will update here to let you know how many phone calls and contacts I have regarding the coyote problems in and around the four counties where I hunt. Things ought to be intersting since many of my landowners are currently in the late part of their calving and the one sheep producer I drive by regularly has a buttload of little lambs running around. Apparantly, I'm going to be very busy.
This week, we sent out thank you cards to our landowners - all 68 of them, covering 58,000 acres in four counties - thanking them for their willingness to let us hunt on their land, and reminding them that they can call us at anytime should they have problems with coyotes and that we'll come out on our dime, free of charge, and do what we can. These guys represent a cross section of Kansas agriproduction; some of them are row crops only, some are mixed operations running cattle and crops, and three of them are sheep producers.
In the past three years, we're batting 1.000 on handling those complaints received to the landowner's satisfaction. Prior to that, I went ten years without a call. Things are getting serious.
To help start things off, I'll retroactively post the numbers of the past week:
Monday, February 12 to Monday, February 19 - 0.
Maybe I'll get a call tomorrow. ![[Frown]](frown.gif)
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I am only one. But still, I am one. I cannot do everything, but still, I can do something; and, because I cannot do everything, I will not refuse to do something that I can do.
Posts: 5438 | From: The gun-lovin', gun-friendly wild, wild west | Registered: Jan 2003
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TRnCO
FUTURE HALL OF FAMER
Member # 690
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posted February 19, 2007 04:00 PM
SO curious, do the guys that have "row crops only" just hate coyotes, or are they attempting to save thier corn crops? ![[Razz]](tongue.gif) ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
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Is it hunting season yet? I hate summer!
Posts: 996 | From: Elizabeth, CO | Registered: Aug 2005
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Dan Carey
unknown comic
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posted February 19, 2007 04:26 PM
Do they really grow corn in Texas?
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Cdog911
"There are some ideas so absurd only an intellectual could believe them."--George Orwell.
Member # 7
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posted February 19, 2007 05:44 PM
I don't know anyone that hates coyotes. A few guys are mildly intolerant of them but as long as they aren't causing any problems, they are fine with them. Even enjoy seeing them once in a while.
Still by the phones - land line and cell both. No calls yet, but ever hopeful.
Dan,
I'm in Kansas - the first Abilene. ![[Smile]](smile.gif) Those Texas boys already know they have a problem for sure. I'm just now collecting the necessary data to confirm or refute if we have one that we just don't know about. Yet. And I suppose that someone in TX knows how to grow corn. But, I'm sure there are those that would argue the point.
[ February 19, 2007, 05:46 PM: Message edited by: Cdog911 ]
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I am only one. But still, I am one. I cannot do everything, but still, I can do something; and, because I cannot do everything, I will not refuse to do something that I can do.
Posts: 5438 | From: The gun-lovin', gun-friendly wild, wild west | Registered: Jan 2003
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Wiley E
Knows what it's all about
Member # 108
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posted February 19, 2007 07:11 PM
Cdog: "In the past three years, we're batting 1.000 on handling those complaints received to the landowner's satisfaction."
Wasn't long ago you were crying in your beer about how hard coyotes were to call in your area and you even presented your percentages on your low degree of success and now you are batting 1.000 on handling complaints???
As far as having a predation problem, you must not have much of a problem if you can kill such a low percentage of coyotes and solve the problem. For your sake, I hope you can get your stories straight.
Which way is it Lance? Do you kill a low percent on your stands or are you batting 1.000 on handling complaints? Which story are you going to stick with?
~SH~
[ February 19, 2007, 07:12 PM: Message edited by: Wiley E ]
Posts: 853 | From: Kadoka, S.D | Registered: Feb 2003
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Cdog911
"There are some ideas so absurd only an intellectual could believe them."--George Orwell.
Member # 7
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posted February 19, 2007 08:24 PM
quote:
As far as having a predation problem, you must not have much of a problem
Damn! I think you've got it.
Just so you understand, Scott, I'm looking at my numbers right now. End of the year figures...
246 stands called in 41 days in the field since Nov 1, 5,400 miles on the old odometer getting there and back.
74 coyotes called, 28 killed.
I use a technique I learned from Higgins and see many multiples and generally am able to get one from the bunch. This year, I had several instances where I called 4 and 5 coyotes at a time. Because this isn't open range country like you enjoy, you generally get one shot and the survivors are six feet to heavy cover. Most of my shots are within fifty yards. Rarely over a hundred.
The only complaint I entertained this year was in August and we killed five coyotes in that section, three after the problem seemed to be resolved. Those last three were just mop up because the owner asked us to. So yes, we have very few problems. Got that? And that problem was fixed.
Last year, I had three problems. Fixed all three.
The year before that, two. Both fixed.
Hard coyotes to call? Yep. Still stand by that.
Had a friend of yours here in January. Let him do the calling. Saw? 0 Killed? Less than that. He's the eighth good caller I've seen do that around here. A week later, I went to the Flint Hills east of me and we saw 4, one called. I was doing the calling. Always glad to see the experts fall flat on their faces calling my "excuses".
During the same period, the dog wagons I hunt around killed 35 and 28 coyotes respectively, that week, across my hunting area. Not so much an excuse as a fact of life around here.
Tune in tomorrow. Maybe I'll get a call!!!
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I am only one. But still, I am one. I cannot do everything, but still, I can do something; and, because I cannot do everything, I will not refuse to do something that I can do.
Posts: 5438 | From: The gun-lovin', gun-friendly wild, wild west | Registered: Jan 2003
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Wiley E
Knows what it's all about
Member # 108
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posted February 20, 2007 08:24 AM
Cdog: "Damn! I think you've got it."
You think you are going to teach me something about coyote predation? LOL!
Ain't you the tomcat?
Cdog: "The only complaint I entertained this year was in August and we killed five coyotes in that section, three after the problem seemed to be resolved. Those last three were just mop up because the owner asked us to. So yes, we have very few problems. Got that? And that problem was fixed."
And that is supposed to be an indication of coyote predation in Kansas?
First, your experiences apply to where you live and are certainly not representative of other areas in Kansas which MAY OR MAY NOT BE the same.
Second, your knowledge of predation is based solely on what you receive for calls and who you talk to. You don't know what goes on in other areas of your state and it's questionable whether your phone calls and conversations are indicative of what's going on in your area.
Many times I have found calves that were killed by coyotes that ranchers were unaware of because they were too busy calving and just figured the calf was lost in weather and the coyotes cleaned it up. The hooves and the fact that the cow was nursed indicated otherwise.
You want to argue both sides of this Lance. On one hand you want to suggest that there is no predation problems and on the other hand, you want to argue that you are taking care of the problem and there is no need for predator control. Well if there was no predation, there's nothing to take care of is there?
By your own statistics, you only killed coyotes on 11% of your stands and only killed 38% of the coyotes you call and you think that is going to stop predation? If my calling statistics were that poor, I'd quit. If I can't consistantly call coyotes on 50% of my stands and kill 50% of the coyotes I see that I have access to, I'm disatisfied. Perhaps you should learn how to locate your coyotes before you call a stand rather than calling just because you think a certain place looks good or if you are locating them, you better learn to call them. Another testimony to your lack of experience yet you think you're qualified to tell others how to do it.
Most of the predation complaints you receive are on cattlemen right? The window of calf predation is very small before calves become too much for coyotes to handle. When calling cattlemen outside of that window, you are not doing anything to reduce predation.
Whether or not cattlemen have problems on calf predation depends on the geography of the area and whether calves are being born out in pastures or next to buildings and near roads. It also depends on the coyote population of the area and when these calves are being dropped in relation to denning. No two areas or situations are the same so it's grossly misleading to suggest that recreational callers can take care of calf predation problems.
As far as sheep problems, most of the range lambing operations are gone so you certainly aren't helping anyone with sheep by only killing 38% of the coyotes you call next to a farm flock that is tight to the buildings in August. Who do you think you're kidding?
Based on you there is no need for predator control in your area which could be a result of many factors so why try to pretend that you are some kind of substitute for an ADC program WHEN, ACCORDING TO YOU, THERE'S NO NEED FOR ONE?
Cdog: "Had a friend of yours here in January. Let him do the calling. Saw? 0 Killed? Less than that. He's the eighth good caller I've seen do that around here."
Maybe you don't have any coyotes where you called. Did you ever think of going to a place WITH COYOTES?
Instead of your continual excuses for your lack of success perhaps you should find an area with coyotes.
Cdog: "Always glad to see the experts fall flat on their faces calling my "excuses"."
Why? You bring experts into an area without coyotes so that you can justify your miserable percentages?
If you had any confidence in your abilities, you'd enter St. Francis instead of writing about those that do.
My problem with you is that you act like you know so much more than you actually do, which is obvious to anyone with experience, by writing about others techniques then you come up with all kinds of excuses for your lack of sucess WHILE SUPPOSEDLY TEACHING OTHERS HOW TO DO IT!
You learn a new technique from someone like Rich Higgins then you write about it before you've even had a chance to apply it and that's why I don't give much credence to anything you say.
~SH~
Posts: 853 | From: Kadoka, S.D | Registered: Feb 2003
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Cdog911
"There are some ideas so absurd only an intellectual could believe them."--George Orwell.
Member # 7
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posted February 20, 2007 11:52 AM
Since I'm only home for a few minutes, I'll make this brief. I've got to work for a living.
Your comments demonstrate your ignorance, Scott. Good try at spinning the facts, but if the calls and e-mails I received after our most recent dust up before this one are any indication, I again submit that your comments speak to your character.
BTW, just for the record, upon receiving that complaint this summer and killing the five, we called six. That's a kill rate of 83.5% when not just hunting for fun. And the one that got away was over 300 yards away and went back over the hill as soon as I killed the one that came in with him. Can you do better? Hot dog. LOL
No calls so far today guys, but I've got the wife by the phone. Just in case.
[ February 20, 2007, 11:53 AM: Message edited by: Cdog911 ]
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I am only one. But still, I am one. I cannot do everything, but still, I can do something; and, because I cannot do everything, I will not refuse to do something that I can do.
Posts: 5438 | From: The gun-lovin', gun-friendly wild, wild west | Registered: Jan 2003
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted February 20, 2007 03:18 PM
Got a "hot line", eh?
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 31450 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
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Tim Behle
Administrator MacNeal Sector
Member # 209
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posted February 20, 2007 03:40 PM
Scott,
In your honest opinion, if Wildlife services shut it's doors tonight, and Ranchers had to start paying the full bill for a private ADC contractor out of their own pocket starting tomorrow.
How long do you think it would take before the Predator problems in Western States, where Wildlife services is currently active, to drop off to the same levels as those to the East where there are no Government hunters, trappers or airplanes?
These Ranchers hire Government hunters, because they get subsidized on the cost of the hunting. If these guys had to pay the full bill out of their own pocket, just like the guys back East do now, their problem would go away just as fast.
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Personally, I carry a gun because I'm too young to die and too old to take
an ass kickin'.
Posts: 3160 | From: Five Miles East of Vic, AZ | Registered: Jun 2003
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Rich
2,000th post PAKMAN
Member # 112
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posted February 20, 2007 03:51 PM
"These Ranchers hire Government hunters, because they get subsidized on the cost of the hunting. If these guys had to pay the full bill out of their own pocket, just like the guys back East do now, their problem would go away just as fast."
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Interesting thought. I always believed that Government ADC programs were funded by the tax payers. All tax payers I mean, not just sheep and cattle growers. ?
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If you call the coyotes in close, you won't NEED a high dollar range finder.
Posts: 2854 | From: Iowa | Registered: Feb 2003
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coyotehombre
PAKMAN
Member # 1161
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posted February 20, 2007 04:23 PM
Cdogg 911 are you a professional ADC guy?? I mean if you get a call for a problem and you kill the adults are you gonna follow through and find the den and euthanize the pups or leave them to dehydrate and starve?
Posts: 8 | From: kansas | Registered: Feb 2007
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Tim Behle
Administrator MacNeal Sector
Member # 209
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posted February 20, 2007 04:34 PM
coyotehombre,
Is there a difference in dead?
How do you recommend getting those pups out of the hole to kill them?
Besides, you still have three months to wait before you will find any pups in the hole.
Rich, I hear these Ranchers around here whining about having to pay part of the cost, maybe they don't have to pay any of it in other areas?
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Personally, I carry a gun because I'm too young to die and too old to take
an ass kickin'.
Posts: 3160 | From: Five Miles East of Vic, AZ | Registered: Jun 2003
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Cdog911
"There are some ideas so absurd only an intellectual could believe them."--George Orwell.
Member # 7
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posted February 20, 2007 04:35 PM
Yep. I'm even thinking about hooking it up to the lamp so the light will start flashing when it rings. Started carrying my cell phone in a brief case like the President's "football". LOL
Now that I'm back from another hard day waiting for that football to ring, I can take a few minutes to respond to some of Scott's remarks. I hate to do it here because it'll only muddy the rapidly growing numbers on this project and make it harder for the rest of you to cipher the results.
"You think you are going to teach me something about coyote predation? LOL!"
Actually, no. I've never pretended to match you on your knowledge of coyotes and coyote hunting. Then again, I don't work coyotes for a living and in that sense, I doubt you're up to speed on advanced cardiac life support protocols or can tell me the first thing about federal laws as they apply to the handling of your mail. Having said that, I do believe that someone should, or maybe can teach you a little respect and manners. You've got issues.
"First, your experiences apply to where you live and are certainly not representative of other areas in Kansas which MAY OR MAY NOT BE the same."
You're right. They do. As for the rest of the state of Kansas, that's the rest of the state of Kansas' problem. My generous offer extends only to those nice people that let me on their ground or are willing to this upcoming season. In this region where everything is leased up for deer hunting, access is a true commodity.
"your knowledge of predation is based solely on what you receive for calls and who you talk to. You don't know what goes on in other areas of your state and it's questionable whether your phone calls and conversations are indicative of what's going on in your area."
Right again. My landowners are only aware of those things they are aware of. If yours are aware of things they are not already aware of, I am truly impressed.
"The hooves and the fact that the cow was nursed indicated otherwise."
Even being a slack-jawed, mouth-breathin' redneck, I know a chapped nose and not smooth as a baby's ass hooves look like. Have assessed dead calves that coyotes supposed killed on several occasions and ruled out depredation versus scavenging. Bob Henderson taught me that. Not a new concept.
"You want to argue both sides of this Lance. On one hand you want to suggest that there is no predation problems and on the other hand, you want to argue that you are taking care of the problem and there is no need for predator control. Well if there was no predation, there's nothing to take care of is there?"
No. I want to argue the point that the so-called problem is not of the extent that you seem to want to convince the readers it is. On a case by case basis, when a depredation incident occurs, if I get a call, I respond and do my best to help the producer. So far, admittedly, I have been lucky. If and when those numbers increase, I;'m sure there will be those coyotes beyond my experience. I tell the producers up front that I am not a professional ADC man, just a guy that does a lot of calling, and that I'll do my best. They're perfectly fine with that.
"By your own statistics, you only killed coyotes on 11% of your stands and only killed 38% of the coyotes you call and you think that is going to stop predation?"
I'll give you the benefit of the doubt on your math. Pretty basic statistics. If you derive a final number of 11%, then that's what it must be. Gold star for you. More importantly, I've never asserted that my hunting will stop depredation. I have inferred that a far as the coyotes I kill are concerned, they have stopped depredating anything.
"If my calling statistics were that poor, I'd quit."
Probably a good thing you live in South Dakota, huh? In this part of Kansas, again - a completely different biome than what you have seen in western Kansas around St. Francis - these are pretty good number. There's one other guy in this area that calls as much as I do and I saw him at the fur buyer's last week. He had a grand total of 12 coyotes on the year. he pointed to the two big piles of mauled and chewed up coyotes from the dog wagon boys lying nearby waiting to be graded and sold and made a disparaging remark about how "those bastards" are the cause of his bad numbers. Guess my "excus-itis" is contagious, huh?
"If I can't consistently call coyotes on 50% of my stands and kill 50% of the coyotes I see that I have access to, I'm disatisfied. Perhaps you should learn how to locate your coyotes before you call a stand rather than calling just because you think a certain place looks good or if you are locating them, you better learn to call them."
Again, good thing you live there and not here. I guess I'm just more "determined" than you are. of course, we could have all the coyote callers in the country move to South Dakota where we'll find "satisfaction", like you.
Just so you know, I know how to locate coyotes. Spend a lot of evenings prior to season locating and plotting out packs. If you can convince our tight-lipped coyotes to run their mouth off back at you in the daytime, more power to you. I had it happen twice to me this year. Let's see, two stands out of 246? Uhh, add this, divide that, carry the one. That's a daytime reponse rate of exactly .008. Guess there aren't any coyotes after all.
In the absence of vocal responses, great and wise one, how do you suppose we should select stand locations? Gut feeling? Past history of responses? Experience? Dumb luck?
"Most of the predation complaints you receive are on cattlemen right? The window of calf predation is very small before calves become too much for coyotes to handle. When calling cattlemen outside of that window, you are not doing anything to reduce predation."
Is this news to anyone? Really? Uhh, yes, I'm calling around cattlemen. Other than two small flocks and one old lady with five ewes and a ram that run loose in her yard, WE DON'T HAVE SHEEP.
As far as not doing anything to help predation, okay. But I'm sure having fun.
"As far as sheep problems, most of the range lambing operations are gone so you certainly aren't helping anyone with sheep by only killing 38% of the coyotes you call next to a farm flock that is tight to the buildings in August. Who do you think you're kidding?"
Again, I've made no claims to controlling predation hunting during the season. I just can't figure out why or how you can't wrap your head around that. Then again, how long have I been arguing about a sheep industry that no longer exists. Why do you keep going back to that? as far as 'tight to buildings' go, this area has no huge expanses of open range. EVERYTHING and EVERYWHERE is close to buildings.
"Based on you there is no need for predator control in your area which could be a result of many factors so why try to pretend that you are some kind of substitute for an ADC program WHEN, ACCORDING TO YOU, THERE'S NO NEED FOR ONE?"
Again, whose pretending.
Hey, the rest of you, do any of you vaguely recall me saying that we really don't have a need for professional predator control people or has that remark just been bouncing around in my thick skull?
And Scott, aside from it being my own modest opinion, it's the opinion of my producers. Do you want names and phone numbers? Maybe you can call them yourself and explain to them how they're too damned stupid to know what they need. LOL
"Maybe you don't have any coyotes where you called. Did you ever think of going to a place WITH COYOTES?"
You're right. There aren't any. Well, not really "any". Just one. One neurotic little bastard that was all over the country the night before, leaving all those fresh tracks in the snow.
As far as going places with coyotes, yeah I have. Once or twice a year when I can get away and go to CO or NE or someplace like that where, by the way, I do very well for someone who doesn't know what they're doing, thank you very much.
"Why? You bring experts into an area without coyotes so that you can justify your miserable percentages?"
Nope, because they want to hunt here in January and I've told every one of them that the hunting gets very poor once the ground freezes hard and the dog wagons rape and pillage every square inch of cover. The coyotes are there. They'll attest to that. Yet none of them have managed to peel one either. Statement of fact. Go figure.
"If you had any confidence in your abilities, you'd enter St. Francis instead of writing about those that do."
If I had any desire to hunt competitively, I'd enter St. Francis. But, with the timing of that hunt and the kind of ground out there compared to mine here where I have permission, I'd do just as well sending Brent my check as a donation. LOL I'm comfortable in my own skin as far as my skills go and don't need to run my ass ragged for two days just so I can say once and for all that I'm better than you. Doesn't appeal to me at all.
How many times have you seen me out there? Uhhh, once. The reason I was there was because I was asked to do the story. Glad to help Brent out. Lots of writers write about other people every day and every month. Just a while back, Gerry Blair penned a nice piece on Rich Higgins and Tyler. Did you send him a letter bomb because he had the gall to write about someone else? Double standard? How many times has Gerry won St. Francis? How about some of the other big names in the industry? How about you?
"My problem with you..."
That's the root of your problem, isn't it? You have a problem with ME! I'm cool with that. Sounds like a personal problem, but if you want to lose sleep over me, go ahead. I'll add bugging the crap out of you to my list of things I'm pretty good at if I just take the time to apply myself. You're one out of roughly 40,000 readers, and that's just ONE magazine I wrote for. Would it really chap your ass if I told you I have been approached by another very recognizable name in the industry and asked if I'd be willing to contribute to someone other than T&PC? Told him I am happy where I am, so you can safely buy other media and rest comfortably knowing you won't stumble on my misguided ramblings.
"You learn a new technique from someone like Rich Higgins then you write about it before you've even had a chance to apply it and that's why I don't give much credence to anything you say. "
Finally, one last point. Not too long ago, there was a big shit storm about how people learn things from their mentors yet are not willing to give credit where credit was rightfully due. If I recall, you were the primary turd stirrer on that one, too. Now, when someone is willing to shed a little light on someone that's brought great things to the industry, guys like you still find a way to get your panties all in a bunch because even then, it's just not good enough.
So, Scott, which way will you have it? Give credit? Or not? Maybe you want everyone to stumblebump their way thru the try and fail method, or better yet, call you, pay you and make you a fast buck because, after all, you're all knowing. LOL
For the record, you will never pick up a magazine where the writing staff hasn't done copy featuring some main character. Again, Gerry's piece on the Higgins boys comes to mind. That's how articles are written. Duh!
With respect to Rich and the articles I've done on him, they were conceived by him in our discussions as a means of getting what he thought and still thnks is important information out to regular Joe callers.
Same goes for the article on misting about Leonard. Rich's idea. Leonard agreed. If you want to rip someone, maybe you need to rip on them, too.
Same for the articles on Q. His ideas. My writing.
All were a great opportunity for me to refine my skills writing beyond the first person. They were all factually accurate despite your personal opinion.
If you really don't like my writing, feel free to turn the page. You're a minority and nothing more than an accepted and expected part of the job. Again, thanks for sharing. Your thoughts are important to me.
Oh, and BTW, I ran into a couple of my livestock guys today. Asked them if the recall anyone that used to raise sheep around here. They both said, "Oh yeah."
I asked them why they no longer raise sheep. They said, "Isn't any money in it." I was shocked.
"You mean, there wasn't any income, or the costs associated with coyote losses ruined their profit margin?"
They both laughed, and said that coyotes had nothing to do with it. There wasn't any real money in it to begin with and there still isn't.
Let's see,.... guess you're wrong again.
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I am only one. But still, I am one. I cannot do everything, but still, I can do something; and, because I cannot do everything, I will not refuse to do something that I can do.
Posts: 5438 | From: The gun-lovin', gun-friendly wild, wild west | Registered: Jan 2003
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coyote whacker
Knows what it's all about
Member # 639
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posted February 20, 2007 04:49 PM
In your honest opinion, if Wildlife services shut it's doors tonight, and Ranchers had to start paying the full bill for a private ADC contractor out of their own pocket starting tomorrow.
Do you think that makes the problem of depredation go away? They pay taxes and pay into the program 2 ways, livestock head tax and also other taxes as well.
Cdog your producers can have there thoughts, but to say there is no money in this lamb market is not factual.Plenty make money off of sheep and yes they are more work than cattle for the most part, that being a big reason many don't like to run them!
Look at what lamb chops in the store ***** for, if lamb meat was out why then are stores selling it for 10-12 per lb? Sadly the producer isn't in that range but if you can take a 100-120% lamb crop to market for "finishing" an average 85-90 per head for 6 months of care and grazing thats not bad money is it? Run 500 thats $45,000 off of that lamb crop for 6 months.
I in fact have some producers that have gotten back into sheep and others who have kept back ewe lambs to make there operations larger. The next year. It's all in what a man wants to do to make a living and many of the old timers where raised on sheep and continue on as a way to make a living.
[ February 20, 2007, 05:00 PM: Message edited by: coyote whacker ]
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This is done on my time and my dime. My views may differ from those of others!
Posts: 376 | From: USA | Registered: Apr 2005
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Tim Behle
Administrator MacNeal Sector
Member # 209
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posted February 20, 2007 05:23 PM
quote:
In your honest opinion, if Wildlife services shut it's doors tonight, and Ranchers had to start paying the full bill for a private ADC contractor out of their own pocket starting tomorrow.
Do you think that makes the problem of depredation go away?
The problem will never go away, but I'd bet it would cut out 50% or more of the people who whine about it, yet are too lazy to take responsibility for their own herds. I see to many "Ranchers" fill a section of land to it's carrying capacity ( or above), then ignore their crop until they want to take them to market. Then you hear them bitch about low prices, that they didn't work to earn, and blame coyotes and other predators for low survival rates, resulting in low production.
Calves die with out nutrition, and coyotes feed on dead calves. So why should my tax dollars go to kill coyotes, who fed on a few dead calves that some "Ranchers" are too cheap and lazy to take care of?
quote:
Look at what lamb chops in the store (Retail) for, if lamb meat was out why then are stores selling it for 10-12 per lb?
The retail price is that high, because it is considered a specialty item. The demand is so low, that few places are set up to butcher lamb. Those who do, can demand a premium price. People prefer Beef, and that is the market that the public supports.
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Personally, I carry a gun because I'm too young to die and too old to take
an ass kickin'.
Posts: 3160 | From: Five Miles East of Vic, AZ | Registered: Jun 2003
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Tim Behle
Administrator MacNeal Sector
Member # 209
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posted February 20, 2007 05:31 PM
Scott,
Before you, Cal or any other Government paid ADC worker gets their panties in a wad, let me fully state, that I have complete admiration for both you personally, and for the work that you do.
I just don't believe that the demand for your work would be nearly so high, if the Ranchers who benefited for your services, had to pay a private contractor to do the same job.
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Personally, I carry a gun because I'm too young to die and too old to take
an ass kickin'.
Posts: 3160 | From: Five Miles East of Vic, AZ | Registered: Jun 2003
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Cal Taylor
Knows what it's all about
Member # 199
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posted February 20, 2007 05:49 PM
Coyote Wacker is right about the fact that in most places (definately Wyoming) the ranchers are charged a head tax for every head of livestock that they sell, it goes for predator control) and that funds a large share of the WS budget. Some counties here dropped WS because they didn't think it was effective enough and started their own programs and they fund themselves entirely. This year they did get some extra money in the county that I work for but it is designed for more predator control to help more than just the ranchers. It is directed at wildlife. I don't live in Kansas (thank God) but here wildlife is also a large part of the economy and that money that comes into the state is substantial. It is turned over several times in this economy and affeects almost every business in the state. Predator control is important to wildlife management. Another difference here and places like where Scott is, is that unlike the more farm oriented communitites, there is very little farming. The producers have to make their living on livestock, there is no big farm subsidy check or CRP check coming in. I've seen the CRP in Kansas, I see where most of those guys make their living, leeching off of the government. As far as no money in sheep, I have a county full of sheep producers that have made their livings for several generation off of sheep alone.
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Democracy is two wolves and a lamb deciding what to have for lunch.
Liberty is a well armed lamb contesting the vote.
FoxPro Field Staff Member
Posts: 1069 | From: Wyoming | Registered: May 2003
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TA17Rem
Hello, I'm the legendary Tim Anderson, Field Marshall, Southern Minneesota Sector
Member # 794
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posted February 20, 2007 05:52 PM
Here in Mn. we have had an increase on sheep production and there still are a few 1,000 head feed-lots still around.
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What if I told you, the left wing and right wing both belong to same bird!
Posts: 5063 | From: S.D. | Registered: Jan 2006
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Cdog911
"There are some ideas so absurd only an intellectual could believe them."--George Orwell.
Member # 7
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posted February 20, 2007 05:58 PM
Tim,
I, too, hold these guys in the highest regard. Don't confuse my commentary with Scott as a general statement against ADC as a whole. Theirs is a dream job for many of us. It's Scott's personal problems with me that are my issue here.
CW,
I have friends who own large ranches out in NW Colorado of which most are in sheep leases. Sheep is a major industry out there and the guys that build their operations around it do so because the environment and resources support that direction. Around here, the best money is in cattle. That's what happens when you have big bluestem higher than your head for mile after mile. For whatever reason, I keep trying to explain my side of this debate from the standpoint of a guy that hunts HERE, in these conditions . Not THERE, in those. Scott's the one that keeps trying to explain to me how my area is. Weird, huh?
My comments shouldn't be misconstrued to say that the sheep industry as a whole, is obsolete. That is NOT what I have said. As far as in this area, it's relatively non-existent.
Oh yeah, we've turned the phones off.
Today's tally?
Calls: 0
Losses: 0
And our new category, losses we're not aware of: 0, we think.
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I am only one. But still, I am one. I cannot do everything, but still, I can do something; and, because I cannot do everything, I will not refuse to do something that I can do.
Posts: 5438 | From: The gun-lovin', gun-friendly wild, wild west | Registered: Jan 2003
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Rich
2,000th post PAKMAN
Member # 112
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posted February 20, 2007 07:30 PM
"Rich, I hear these Ranchers around here whining about having to pay part of the cost, maybe they don't have to pay any of it in other areas?"
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Tim B,
Yes, I know what you mean and I would like to know just who pays for it. From what Cal and C.W. have said, it sounds like the livestock producers pay a certain percentage of the cost when they sell their stock. I ain't complaining or anything, just curius is all. You raise roosters don't ya Tim? Do you have to pay an ADC tax on em when you sell? The farmers around here don't want to pay for coyote control, they just cuss a lot when a calf or a few sheep are killed. ![[Cool]](cool.gif)
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If you call the coyotes in close, you won't NEED a high dollar range finder.
Posts: 2854 | From: Iowa | Registered: Feb 2003
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Cal Taylor
Knows what it's all about
Member # 199
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posted February 20, 2007 09:26 PM
Holy Crap! I just noticed I broke a thousand posts. I never thought that would happen. I have been spending way too much time around a computer for a couple years I can plainly see.
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Democracy is two wolves and a lamb deciding what to have for lunch.
Liberty is a well armed lamb contesting the vote.
FoxPro Field Staff Member
Posts: 1069 | From: Wyoming | Registered: May 2003
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted February 21, 2007 05:17 AM
Yeah, you need rehab, Cal. Shave your head, say "hi" to Britney.
Seriously, we're glad to have you. You classy the place up, and Nancy always said you were a handsome dude.
Good hunting. LB
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 31450 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
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JoeF
resides "back east"
Member # 228
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posted February 21, 2007 05:24 AM
I've raised cattle (still do) and sheep in both Missouri and Illinois. Areas that are more like Cdog's eastern Kansas. Areas where the forage is so thick that the carrying capacity could almost be more correctly stated as cows per acre than acres per cow.
Raising sheep provides little return compared to cattle. If you've got the room, raise cows.
People ( around here) got out of the sheep market in the mid 80's when the bottom dropped out of the market. Anybody remember when they were killing them in Australia by the tens of thousands and burying them with bulldozers because they could not afford to feed them. Killed our market, too. Put me out of the sheep business - quick like a bunny.
People around here typically only raise sheep as a novelty, they don't have the space for cows, or they have a pasture/woodland mix that they'd like cleaned up to reduce the competition with grass.
In my experience and those I know coyotes are not a real problem, cattle or sheep. Pen or pasture birthing. If I go back a long ways, not a real problem for hogs, either. Sure do hear a lot of bitching about it though. Fukin wolves are always killin sumthin.
Dogs running loose are a problem.
Point being, the lack of sheep farming in Mo. and IL. have nothing to do with some failed or misguided program. Simply a matter of ROI. Even true in the 1/2 of Mo. where there are no row crops. If you can get grass to grow between the rocks and trees cows pay better. Suspect that the areas of the rest of the country with good grass are the same, including eastern KS.
Glad somebody raises them, I'd sorely miss my wool socks. Speaking of which, I only know of one outfit that does commercial shearing above I70 in Eastern Mo./Western IL. Not saying there aren't more, just haven't heard of them. There is no money in the wool, if you don't shear yourself you pay the shearer and give them the wool.
Tim hit it right on the lamb generaly being a bit of a specialty item. Raise lambs in this part of the country and miss the Easter market and the bottom falls out of the prices.
Anybody still raising sheep thank me. I love wool clothing and buy lamb a couple of times a year; if I can find it in the store, in some sort of funny attempt to stimulate the local market.
Shucks, I even almost liked raising them, especially when there were little kids around.
Posts: 646 | From: Midwest | Registered: Aug 2003
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted February 21, 2007 06:39 AM
I don't doubt anything said, to this point, know nothing about circumstances? But, what is it about Wyoming that sheep ranchers manage to survive, and it can't be done in Kansas and MO.? Actually there used to be a lot of sheep in northern Nevada, Basque. Maybe it's the forage available, or lack of?
Good hunting. LB
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 31450 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
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