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Author
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Topic: Perceptions of estrous chirps and other vocalizations
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Rich Higgins
unknown comic
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posted February 12, 2007 02:43 PM
It has been claimed in the other estrous chirp threads that we cannot know with certainty what coyotes mean when they vocalize.
Consider this please:
"Canine distress". This vocalization is issued by coyotes in response to extreme pain and/or terror.
That is a known fact and callers can exploit coyotes response to the sound.
"Barks". Aggressive barks are issued by resident animals as warning to other group members of an intruder, and/or as a warning to the intruder not to approach closer, and/or as a familiar sound to the resident issuing the barks to increase it's sense of security even if doesn't know what has alarmed it. That is a known fact and can be exploited by callers.
"Challenge howls". These are issued by resident animals as a warning to other group members of an intrusion, and/or to the intruder to leave now, and/or as a security level booster to an alarmed resident. This is a known fact and can be exploited by a caller.
"Woof". This is a recognizable sound and is obvious both from the sound as well as from the immediate response by the puppies. This can be exploited as well.
"Group yip-howl". This is a very recognizable series of vocalizations that announces the presence of resident coyotes and it can be exploited as well.
I can recognise these five vocalizations and I can reproduce all five to exploit coyotes known responses to them. And so it is with the so called "Estrous Chirp".
Background.
Wells wrote a paper on the importance of play to the social structure of the coyote. He demonstrated that play among puppies forged strong social bonds and established status within the group. Aggressive and dominate puppies never initiated play and rarely participated. They were the first to disperse from the family group.
Puppies solicited play by approaching another puppy or an adult, dropping to it's elbows with it's chest touching the ground, it's posterior raised high, wagging it's tail, then bouncing sideways back and forth, charging at the other coyote and breaking off, dashing away and then repeating, all the while issuing a series of high pitched, excited yips. Coyotes continue this behavior into adulthood with family members.
Coyotes are monestrous, the female comes into season usually in Feb. and she is receptive usually for only two days, making a very narrow window of opportunity.. The male is sterile for eight months. Spermatogenesis usually begins in Oct. and is a slow process. Sometimes the female becomes receptive before the males androgen and testosterone levels are high enough for him to be fully interested.
The species has evolved a "female solicitation behavior" to compensate. She will paw repeatedly at his flanks as he lies down, sometimes with the result of pawing bald ovals on his flanks.(anyone taken mature males with these bald ovals in February or March?) The female will solicit play from the male to arouse his interest. She dashes about wagging her tail and emitting high pitched excited yips.
I am convinced that I know what those yips, emitted by either the puppies or the adult female mean, just as I am convinced that I know what the other five vocalizations that I listed mean. There is little speculation here, Guys, and certainly no great mystery or conspiracy to defraud the gullible and unknowing. This is not an esoteric sex noise that lucky coyotes hear only once a year.
Ronnie was commissioned by his contractors to develop a call that could capitalize on the mating season. I explained this behavior and vocalization to him and we agreed that the yips sounded much like bird chirps and hence the name, which, incidently, was simply to attach a memorable, short identifying tag to the sound because "Solicitation Yips From a Receptive Female Attempting to Elicit Attention From a Slow Responding Male" seemed a little ponderous.
I asked Dr. Jaeger to weigh in on this sound. He spoke with Dr. Fred Knowlton, who Mike said has observed more coyotes over the past forty years than anyone that Mike knows. Dr Knowlton said that the females issue several vocalizations at this time of year related to mating behavior, including the high, excited yips.
Mike told me today that he will speak to the woman who is studying coyote mating behavior at the research center and get a more complete report.
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2dogs
Knows what it's all about
Member # 649
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posted February 12, 2007 03:05 PM
[ March 26, 2007, 06:44 PM: Message edited by: 2dogs ]
Posts: 1034 | From: central Iowa | Registered: Apr 2005
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stevecriner
UNKNOWN-before he was famous?
Member # 892
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posted February 12, 2007 03:17 PM
RichH,
when they observe the coyotes,are they in captivity or in the wild? And does this effect the way a coyote handles his self as far as these sounds or activities in general.
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"I love coyotes and put up with dogs....My neighbor has a slew of them."
Posts: 321 | From: missouri | Registered: Jul 2006
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted February 12, 2007 03:23 PM
quote:
Puppies solicited play by approaching another puppy or an adult, dropping to it's elbows with it's chest touching the ground, it's posterior raised high, wagging it's tail, then bouncing sideways back and forth, charging at the other coyote and breaking off, dashing away and then repeating, all the while issuing a series of high pitched, excited yips. Coyotes continue this behavior into adulthood with family members.
Rich, I'm sure you are aware that many animals exibit the same behavior described above. It is not exclusive to coyotes.
Just to play devils advocate for a minute; if this sound, useful as it may be, is learned by pups, in the den, then why is it called a estrus chirp? I think that is one of the points that others are trying to make. A female coyote has been observed to make this sound and your logic tells you that it is a request for sex from the male.
Now, to carry it a step further, to imitate this sound, logic tells you that a different coyote that hears this unique sound will come in because he thinks he is being summoned? Or, if a female comes to this call, she is doing so because she wants to romp with litter mates?
I don't know how effective this sound might be all year, but it seems to me that the theory will be ironed out and a consensus will be attained, aomewhere along the line. Maybe not, but a few of the other so called identifiable vocalizations are still not universally understood, or even labeled the same.
If this sound is the "second coming" in coyote calling, there ought to be a Nobel Prize in it for someone?
Good hunting. LB
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 31459 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
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Rich Higgins
unknown comic
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posted February 12, 2007 03:28 PM
2dogs, interestingly I forwarded a photo that was posted on another board of wear patterns on the top of the shoulders of two coyotes harvested. Mike responded that an assistant that observes the coyotes daily was seeing a grooming behavior exhibited by both mated animals. Today Mike told me that Dr. Knowlton had described the behavior that you reported and said that it was common at this time of year and that it was engaged by both male and female and that they would often precede that behavior by resting their chins on that same spot alternating back and forth. Very interesting.
Steve, fre-ranging coyotes are observed and studied as are captive coyotes.
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Rich Higgins
unknown comic
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posted February 12, 2007 04:48 PM
quote:
Rich, I'm sure you are aware that many animals exibit the same behavior described above. It is not exclusive to coyotes.
Leonard the point that I tried to make is that this is a behavior and vocalization that is used by coyotes from the time they are puppies through adulthood. It is NOT a new or recent discovery, it is NOT an esoteric sex noise.
quote:
Just to play devils advocate for a minute; if this sound, useful as it may be, is learned by pups, in the den, then why is it called a estrus chirp?
I explained in the post that it is ALSO used to solicit mating attention from the male and I explained how and why we coined the name. Please re-read the explanation.
quote:
A female coyote has been observed to make this sound and your logic tells you that it is a request for sex from the male.
I believe your logic would be correct under the conditions that I described in my post.
quote:
Now, to carry it a step further, to imitate this sound, logic tells you that a different coyote that hears this unique sound will come in because he thinks he is being summoned? Or, if a female comes to this call, she is doing so because she wants to romp with litter mates?
I don't believe that unseen coyotes believe they are being summoned. It is not a call to distant coyotes. If a female comes to this call, or a male, they are probably simply investigating the presence of an unknown coyote. Which is exactly what we try to accomplish, as callers ,with any other coyote vocalization, with the exception of locators.
quote:
If this sound is the "second coming" in coyote calling, there ought to be a Nobel Prize in it for someone?
Why would anyone consider this call to be "the second coming"? It is simply another sound that can sometimes be used to elicit an approach response from coyotes.
Forty years ago rabbit distress was the only sound that mainstrean callers used. It was the only sound that competitors used in stage contests. In todays contests I use coyote vocalizations, bird, rodent, calf, fawn and a host of other sounds that I cannot possibly name that appeal to predators and judges alike.
Coyotes will often come over and take a look at them and this sound is just another one that is effective occasionally for one reason or another.
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2dogs
Knows what it's all about
Member # 649
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posted February 12, 2007 05:17 PM
[ March 26, 2007, 06:44 PM: Message edited by: 2dogs ]
Posts: 1034 | From: central Iowa | Registered: Apr 2005
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TA17Rem
Hello, I'm the legendary Tim Anderson, Field Marshall, Southern Minneesota Sector
Member # 794
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posted February 12, 2007 06:01 PM
Rich; i believe i have seen the same pic's you are talking about where the coyotes have fur missing on the back of its shoulders. I believe this is caused by coyotes going in and out of culverts and going under fences. I have seen several coyotes like you described. On another note antelope crawl under fences as well and get the same hair loss on the back of neck. Maybe Cal could jump in and verify this..
With the hair loss on the coyotes i have seen it early in the season and all through it.
But i guess anything could be the cause of it...
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What if I told you, the left wing and right wing both belong to same bird!
Posts: 5064 | From: S.D. | Registered: Jan 2006
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csmithers
unknown comic
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posted February 12, 2007 06:46 PM
I take it the call would be effective near dens as well as throughout the entire year. Seeing as it is not a sound that is localized to 1 month out of the year? I remember it being said that Ronnie had responses in mid- July to the sound.
Side bar: Anyone ever hear of the breeding bellow (different than the estrus bleat) made by does? I have used it on occasion and had bucks respond from 200 yards out on a dead run. This may be the Nobel Prize call for deer during the rut. Not many ppl have heard of it just as with the Estrus Chirp.
[ February 12, 2007, 06:48 PM: Message edited by: smithers ]
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Wiley E
Knows what it's all about
Member # 108
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posted February 13, 2007 06:56 AM
Rich,
First let me start out by saying that I believe you give researchers far more credit than they are due. I myself am a big proponent of research but at the same time, I am a big critic of false conclusions. Robert Crabtree's research is some of the most fascinating I have seen or read yet but it has limited relevance in exploited populations. Robert Crabtree believes many theories that I can tear to shreds. Steve Allen handed him his lunch at a gathering of acedemics because many of these researchers cannot seperate theory from fact.
Robert Crabtree's coyote population dynamics of Yellowstone National Park does not apply to places where they are shot, trapped, snared, run with sleds, run over, etc. etc. Yet he thinks they do.
Only a fool would think that research studies are etched in stone. If I've said it once, I have said it a hundred times, all good research should lead to more questions than answers. The only researchers I trust are those who know the limits of their research such as Steve Allen. It's hard to trip him up because he has enough experience to know the limitations of his conclusions. That's not the case with most researchers and that's certainly not the case with Robert Crabtree and others like him.
On to the "estrous chirp". I have no doubts the sound exists. That's not the issue. The issue is two fold:
#1. Can it be duplicated to the point that a coyote recognizes it as an "estrous chirp".
#2. Does it have any more value than many other sounds.
THAT'S THE ISSUE.
I can tell the difference between someone blowing a howler and an actual coyote howl so Sam blowing an "estrous chirp" is not the same as Fred blowing an "estrous chirp" is not the same as Slydog blowing an "estrous chirp". SO HOW CAN ANYONE SAY THEY KNOW WHY A COYOTE RESPONDED??? They can't! PERIOD!
I have blown a howler for 20 years in numerous states and I can say for absolute certainty that the reaction is not even remotely the same to a voice howl. Not even close.
I've heard you blow your calls and you sound much better than most callers but I can still tell the difference between you and an actual coyote so you're going to have a hard time convincing me that a coyote responds for the reason you think they respond. They respond and that's what matters.
~SH~
Posts: 853 | From: Kadoka, S.D | Registered: Feb 2003
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted February 13, 2007 08:01 AM
Scott, I agree with you 100% in regards to research and the value of their conclusions. As I said elsewhere, the raw data is one thing, but these guys believe their own conclusions, which is (I guess) part of the academic publishing game? AS they say: publish, or perish.
quote:
but I can still tell the difference between you and an actual coyote
Now, here is where I see it as who cares? If anybody believes that a closed reed or an open reed hand call sounds exactly like a rabbit to a coyote or a bobcat, I think they are overlooking the obvious, but, it doesn't matter, in view of the hundreds of thousands of animals that have been called and killed to an artificial sound....not to mention the reproduced electronic sounds, and even Higgins says he can always tell when a sound is electronic; so why can't a coyote? But, it works. Why fight it? In fact, it works better than using a live bunny and poking him in the ass with a cattle prod every minute or so.
But, it does tend to make these guys think and defend their beliefs, so I think you provide a needed service and I'll give you a gold star, today.
Good hunting. LB
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 31459 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
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UTcaller
NEVADA NIGHT FIGHTER
Member # 8
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posted February 13, 2007 08:17 AM
I am not doubting the existence of a breeding sound either.
But you have to put it in context.Is it just the sound that is important?
Or is it much more complicated than that?Sound,sight,smell or a combination of all three?
Again WE DON"T KNOW!
Like Scott stated can we mimic the sound well enough to convince a coyote that we are a female in heat,considering they don't see another coyote,or smell the female in heat,Just based off a chirping sound?
Again we don't know!
Good Hunting Chad
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Rich
2,000th post PAKMAN
Member # 112
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posted February 13, 2007 04:32 PM
I hope to receive my new "She Howler" and instruction DVD tommorow. After I view the DVD and listen to the sounds, I may well have a slightly different view. Here is what I feels so far. Rich Higgins has already stated that this new "chirp" at least contains a lot of excited yips. We know that when a coyote is chasing a rabbit, the coyote will sometimes yip in an excited tone during the chase. As Mr. Higgins has pointed out, the pups often make these excited yelps when playing with their siblings. Female coyotes evidently make these excited yips when trying to gain attention from her mate. The term "Estrous chirps" is probably not completely on target, but does seem to be one reason that female coyotes make these excited sounds. To me, if I go out with a call and make some excited yipping crys, the resident coyotes who hear my calls will respond for several different reasons. Strange coyote in the area who wants to play. Strange coyote in the area that is a female coyote
demanding sex, or maybe a strange coyote in the area that is chasing a rabbit. I do believe that Slydog and Rich Higgins are having coyotes approach the excited yips, and the sounds are working quite well. I believe there is too much belly aching about the label that has been placed on this new call. It is working, and that is the important thing ain't it?
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If you call the coyotes in close, you won't NEED a high dollar range finder.
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slydog
Knows what it's all about
Member # 389
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posted February 13, 2007 06:02 PM
Chad,
What we are saying is: [You may not know] but those of us using this sound are convinced and damn sure of what we have witnessed. Convinced from observation and expieriance in the field. You boys can argue all you want about the name, but you will wast much time that could have been spent putting more fur on strechers.
Its not the name that counts its the effectiveness of the sound. Some of us have spent a lot of time with this sound. RICH HIGGINS, RONNIE ROBINSON, and a few others including myself have countless hours of observation and expieriance using this sound. This sound alone will call coyotes. This sound in conjuntion with other coyote vocalizations work very well.
They also told Colubus that the world was flatt and General George A. Custer stood on a hill, looking down at the hole Soux nation and said those must be the friendly injuns , just because you don't understand something don't make it untrue.
Scott,
{#1. Can it be duplicated to the point that a coyote recognizes it as an "estrous chirp".}
We immatate coyote vocalization all the time and yes we get it close enough that coyotes respond to it so the answer is yes it can be done.
{#2. Does it have any more value than many other sounds.}
Where did you come up with this question Scott? At what point did this question enter this debate. You are digging deep here, To answer this the best way I can: Hell yes, This sound works when nothing else will, it evokes responces from coyotes in hevely hunted areas as well as the far from the road yotes. As I'm finding this sound is
one of my most valued sounds. It works alone, in conjuction with other sounds and with distress.
But what the heck Scott, I bet you already knew this and have been using this sound or one very simmilar for many years.
Sly
[ February 13, 2007, 06:28 PM: Message edited by: slydog ]
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Smote the Yote with a slydog custom call
Posts: 179 | From: SW Idaho | Registered: Aug 2004
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UTcaller
NEVADA NIGHT FIGHTER
Member # 8
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posted February 13, 2007 06:43 PM
SLY,
I don't know how to say this any clearer.IT IS NOT ABOUT THE NAME OF THE FREAKING SOUND.It's about drawing FALSE CONCLUSIONS based on very limited experience with the sound.Plain and simple.
Sly:Now with these FACTS in mind, let me try to explain my thoughts on it. In my expierance I have only heard this chirp once and it was durring the mating season. The coyote that made the sound was in fact a female, I know this because I shot her.... Fact. Now when this coyote made this sound there were two other coyotes with her. I can't tell you for a fact that they were males because I did not kill either of them. From what I witnessed that March morning I deduced that it was a Demand for service if you will. Because of the actions of the two other dogs I deduced they were both males.
After she made this "chirp" the other two advanced toward the female but as they drew closer they became intangled in what I thought was a fight over this female. At this point the wind changed and blew right at the 3 coyotes. In the insewing flight for cover I only had one shot and it was the female.
From this encounter I deduced that this sound was indeed a sound that the female makes and as I can honestly say, I have never heard a male coyote make this sound. I only guess that it is a sound that females solely make. Thats not proven its just my thinking. Since hearing this and talking with others who have heard and recignize it as a chirp and only seeing it 1 time durring the breeding season. I deduced that it had to do with breeding rituals.
With me so far?
That's the basis for your Conclusions?From ONE experience of actual coyote interaction?You don't think Visual,or Smell had anything to do with it.
Sly: RICH HIGGINS, RONNIE ROBINSON, and a few others including myself have countless hours of observation and expieriance using this sound.
Again, no one is doubting the sound works to call coyotes,alot of new sounds work.Were those COUNTLESS hours spent observing coyotes using this SOUND? Or just YOU using your version of the sound and basing your OPINION of why the coyotes responded to YOUR sounds.Again BIG difference.
Sly:just because you don't understand something don't make it untrue.
Same can also be said:Just because you want to believe something is True doesn't nessasarily mean it is true.Good Hunting Chad
Posts: 1612 | From: Utah | Registered: Jan 2003
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted February 13, 2007 07:11 PM
Hey Higgins. Satisfied, now that you have THREE threads on basically the same subject to keep up with? ![[Razz]](tongue.gif)
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 31459 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
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Wiley E
Knows what it's all about
Member # 108
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posted February 13, 2007 07:18 PM
Rich Cronk,
Excellent post!
Do I believe there is value in "excitement yips". Damn straight I do! There is nothing more enticing to a coyote than the sound of another coyote in "HOT PURSUIT" (Roscoe P. Coletrain Coo Coo) of a hot meal.
Let's call it "THE EXCITEMENT YIP" and I'll be honky dory with that. I believe it can be imitated by someone of Rich Higgins caliber (I say that because he's good at duplicating sounds) and I also believe a coyote will recognize it as an "EXCITEMENT YIP" when duplicated by someone of Rich's caliber.
Yeh, I like that theory. When Rich Higgins blows an "ESTROUS CHIRP" at a coyote, that coyote believes he heard a "HOT PURSUIT YIP" or "EXCITEMENT YIP" if you will.
Damn straight! I like it! LOL!
Sly: "We immatate coyote vocalization all the time and yes we get it close enough that coyotes respond to it so the answer is yes it can be done."
Bullsh*t Sly! You can't prove that a coyote believes it's an "ESTROUS CHIRP". Who do you think you're kidding? Hahaha!
More probable, they think it's a "HOT PURSUIT YIP" or "EXCITEMENT YIP". That theory makes a lot more sense.
Sly: "To answer this the best way I can: Hell yes, This sound works when nothing else will, it evokes responces from coyotes in hevely hunted areas as well as the far from the road yotes."
GONG!!!!!
Wrong answer!
The correct answer was......
This sound works when nothing else THAT I KNOW HOW TO PRODUCE will work IN THIS AREA UNDER THESE CIRCUMSTANCES.
Much more descriptive and accurate. LOL!
I have no doubts that I know a sound that will work as good because I have a lot of years of YEAR ROUND calling and competition calling behind me and I know a sound that I have never seen a coyote refuse when said coyote were unaware of my presence and calm to their surroundings. It also works great on dogs too.
Even with the amount of experience I have, I can't tell you what they think it is. I have never heard anything that sounds like it but it works so I don't question the results. I call it, "the kiss of death". Keep in mind that I do most of my calling in open country where I can watch coyotes react to sounds.
Leonard: "But, it does tend to make these guys think and defend their beliefs, so I think you provide a needed service and I'll give you a gold star, today."
Atta boy Leonard! You come through again realizing the value in critical thinking.
That's right, I like to make people think about their beliefs and see if they can defend them because experience carves coyote theories in soap, not stone.
Sly: "But what the heck Scott, I bet you already knew this and have been using this sound or one very simmilar for many years."
No Sly, honestly I haven't tried an "excitement yip" or a "hot pursuit yip" and certainly not an "ESTROUS CHIRP" but I love the "EXCITEMENT YIP" or "HOT PURSUIT YIP" concept.
The "EXCITEMENT YIP" or "HOT PURSUIT YIP" makes perfect sense, it's an integral part of coyote vocalizations and that is an unrefuted fact based on observation, and it has a distinct meaning. BLOOD LUST!!!!
When you talk about territorial, hunger, curiousity, and breeding, DON'T FORGET BLOOD LUST!!!
They love to kill! They live to kill! They can't kill enough! That has nothing to do with defending territories, it has nothing to do with breeding, it has nothing to do with hunger, it has nothing to do with maternal instincts, and it has nothing to do with curiousity. IT'S A BASIC COYOTE INSTINCT SECOND TO NONE!
Great job Rich Cronk, you corralled the debate!
KUDOS!
~SH~
[ February 13, 2007, 07:20 PM: Message edited by: Wiley E ]
Posts: 853 | From: Kadoka, S.D | Registered: Feb 2003
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Rich
2,000th post PAKMAN
Member # 112
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posted February 13, 2007 07:48 PM
"Great job Rich Cronk, you corralled the debate!"
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Holy Toledo Scott, I spit coffee all over my computer you turd! Did you ever think of taking up stand up comedy? Larry the Cable guy couldn't hold a candle to ya. ![[Wink]](wink.gif)
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If you call the coyotes in close, you won't NEED a high dollar range finder.
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csmithers
unknown comic
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posted February 13, 2007 08:14 PM
"....DON'T FORGET BLOOD LUST!!!.....They love to kill! They live to kill! They can't kill enough! That has nothing to do with defending territories, it has nothing to do with breeding, it has nothing to do with hunger, it has nothing to do with maternal instincts, and it has nothing to do with curiousity. IT'S A BASIC COYOTE INSTINCT SECOND TO NONE!"- Says WileyE
Ohhhhhhhh? Reallllly? If they are all just blood thirsty random serial coyotes then wouldn't the countryside be strewn with dead animals? Why would they go back to feed on the carcasses if they were doing it for the thrill? Some coyotes do go on rampage killings but not all. Are they just like bloodthirsty serial murderers that just have to, HAVE TO, go back to the scene of the crime? Are you trying to tell us that coyotes, like house cats, often kill and leave prey and don't ever go back to feed on it? ALL COYOTES, are random killers? Theory, fact or BS?
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slydog
Knows what it's all about
Member # 389
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posted February 13, 2007 11:48 PM
Scott,
LOL..you take yourself way to serious, there for a seccond You sounded like my old highschool Eng.lit teacher. Do you realy think I'm interested in your grading of my papper......lol... Do you realy think I need your approval to shair my expieriances or my thoughts. I think not.
"Scott":More probable, they think it's a "HOT PURSUIT YIP" or "EXCITEMENT YIP". That theory makes a lot more sense. {to you.} and this is just your opinion SCOTT and by the way its not baised on fact either so its just the same "BULL***T as you claim I'm spreading.
"Scott":Bullsh*t Sly! You can't prove that a coyote believes it's an "ESTROUS CHIRP"....... Anymore than you can prove it ain't. NEXT.
"Scott":The correct answer was......
Holy crap are you a gameshow host? You sure put your opinions above others. What..lol.. your right and I'm wrong...HAHAHA thats good. This cracks me up.
Do you realy think that only your opinion counts? Every one else who is using this sound and seeing how it works seems to be finding the same type responce but your right and everyone else is "Bullsh*T"?
I don't care what you call it Scott. Do I make myself clear. I explained it the best way I could in the way I see it. ITS MY OPINION. Take it for what its worth. IF you don't agree thats ok, because its just your opinion. Nothing more, Damn sure not backed by fact just your opinion.
Even when fact is presented to you, your of a different mind. OK Scott you win..
Chad :That's the basis for your Conclusions?From ONE experience of actual coyote interaction?You don't think Visual,or Smell had anything to do with it.
No this is just one of 33 stands over a 16 month time period that the sound was used on. I also have to go through some 360 stands in my log to find this data, some of the 33 stands were made with just coyote vocalizations including the "Churp's", some were made with distress sounds following the chirps, but all 33 had the chirps used at the stand.
Of that, 32 stands provided "Actual coyote interaction" This stand I told of in the other thread was the first with Ronnies "She Howler" it was also the first where only the chirps were used. I have been using a couple howlers that I modified to produce the sound according to what I witnessed and heard last march.
We have had bad rainy weather and all the ground here is very wet and muddy so I have been going through my logs and putting together more fact. I have more data than I thought reguarding the Use of this sound. Its hard to see patterns without keeping a log. There is still some holes in my data but there are patterns developing. I'm glad I started doing this to keep track of what calls I used on what stands many years ago. This keeping a reccord of your stands has helped me see things that I think I would have overlooked or just plain not thought of.
I highly reccomend keeping a reccord of your stands. It will help everyone and its not hard to do. It can be done right after your stand or at the end of the day. I think its easier to do it after the stand, much easier to recall.
I will have more for you on this in the next few days as I compile more data from my logs.
I'm only realy interested in production but I do want to try to understand {In my mind} whats going on when I call "DOGS" in and that is all I'm trying to express to others. From the E-mails I'm getting, others are interested in my thoughts also.
So to everyone who wants to hear more just remember sift through my thoughts and take what you can "USE" and discard the rest. My thoughts aren't etched in stone their just thoughts and my way of relating what I have witnessed.
sly
[ February 14, 2007, 12:11 AM: Message edited by: slydog ]
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Smote the Yote with a slydog custom call
Posts: 179 | From: SW Idaho | Registered: Aug 2004
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Rich Higgins
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posted February 14, 2007 06:39 AM
quote:
Rich,
First let me start out by saying that I believe you give researchers far more credit than they are due.
I do not. There are several biologists that I have spoken to only once and for the reasons you listed. I have one research paper that I paid $60 for that impressed me only with the writers ability to repeat the same information in so many different ways. There was nothing of value to me in the entire thesis. And then there are biologists like Jaeger, Camanzind, Wells, Knowletonand probably others that are careful to qualify their answers to my questions with "my opinion , based on my observations" and often "I'm not sure " and "I don't know but " " is studying that right now and I will ask him/her.
I truly enjoy talking to these men and I greatly respect their knowledge of coyotes based on their close observations over many, many years. Each and everyone of them readily admit their limited knowledge and each of them appear to be as confused about coyote behavior as we are. Each of them are very interested in anecdotal observations and are a pleasure to speak with.
I have read some of Dr. Crabtrees work but have never spoken with him.
quote:
I can tell the difference between someone blowing a howler and an actual coyote howl so Sam blowing an "estrous chirp" is not the same as Fred blowing an "estrous chirp" is not the same as Slydog blowing an "estrous chirp". SO HOW CAN ANYONE SAY THEY KNOW WHY A COYOTE RESPONDED??? They can't! PERIOD!
EXACTLY! And the same is true of all howls, regardless of type of howler, including voice.
quote:
I've heard you blow your calls and you sound much better than most callers but I can still tell the difference between you and an actual coyote so you're going to have a hard time convincing me that a coyote responds for the reason you think they respond. They respond and that's what matters.
Scott, you obviously don't know why I think coyotes respond to our howls. ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
Let me say that I discussed this with Major at the campout in Oct and he politely responded "That's an interesting theory." Leonard, however, turned to someone and said, "Well, that was off the wall." ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
[ February 14, 2007, 06:50 AM: Message edited by: Rich Higgins ]
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UTcaller
NEVADA NIGHT FIGHTER
Member # 8
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posted February 14, 2007 08:07 AM
Again Sly, no one is questioning the effectiveness of the sound,just the explanation of WHY the coyotes responded.There are to many variables involved to be able to base YOUR conclusions as FACTS.Thats it Plain and Simple!!!!
You can have success with YOUR Manmade sound(Etrus Chirp) for 200 more stands and you haven't proven a damn thing other than it works.You still don't know why it worked or what a coyote thought it was hearing.Until you go out and spend COUNTLESS hours OBSERVING coyotes(NOT CALLING THEM WITH YOUR CALL,big difference)in there natrual surroundings and SEE them make the sounds,and WHEN they make the sounds, and the REACTIONS from the sounds, and if it is a COMBINATION of other factors such as SIGHT(seeing another coyote there) and SMELL(Breeding Female),you really don't know why they are responding to your call.Good Hunting Chad
Posts: 1612 | From: Utah | Registered: Jan 2003
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slydog
Knows what it's all about
Member # 389
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posted February 14, 2007 08:31 AM
First off Chad, This ain't a science project. It started out talking about a sound that is calling in coyotes and why. I gave my opinion and you and your buddy are twisting things around words. First it was the name. Then who named it. Now its about what I think. Now you two rocket scientists are trying to cloud the facts with dought and word games. Frankly I'm getting tired of your bullsh*t play on words< Games > you can't prove I'm wrong so you play games... You have more time than I do and I won't play your pissy little game. You to knot heads can have the last word for now
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Smote the Yote with a slydog custom call
Posts: 179 | From: SW Idaho | Registered: Aug 2004
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted February 14, 2007 09:02 AM
Since I'm basically retired, I need a sponser, someone to pay expenses while I gain the confidence of a family group of coyotes.
Ideally, they will adopt me so I can learn their language. For that reason, I will not hook up with Texan coyotes! I promise to publish my paper by this time next year, and hopefully, it will include all my footnotes; who said what, when they said it and who was demanding service from me as I rested near the entrance of the den.
I'll keep in touch via my solar cell phone, and plan to document at least 37 distinct howls and growls and exactly what they mean:
Woof=woof?
woof?=Woof!
Sniff, sniff=my turn
whine=regurgitate some of that rabbit, please
and many more; like group yip chirps, interrogation chirps, not tonight chirp, who's your daddy chirp, etc.
It'll be fun, and it's something that needs doing. I hope you all apreciate it.
Good hunting. LB
PS while I'm gone, Krusty's in charge. Don't take no lip, K!
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 31459 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
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UTcaller
NEVADA NIGHT FIGHTER
Member # 8
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posted February 14, 2007 09:35 AM
Now Leonard's thinking outside the box.lol And he will probably be able to put this debate to rest once and for all.
Sly:First off Chad, This ain't a science project.
You are the one that has made this into a science project,with your bull***t theories on why you think a coyote is responding to your sounds based on false conclusions.
Sly:It started out talking about a sound that is calling in coyotes and why.
It's not the calling of coyotes with the new sound I have a problem with.It's you think you KNOW why the coyote responds,and you DON'T.
Sly: Now you two rocket scientists are trying to cloud the facts with dought and word games.
Scientists? We're not he ones trying to say a coyote thinks this or that are we!!!and trying to say why they do this or that!!!That's been your department all along Dr.Slydog.
As far as clouding the facts,I don't have to, because you're doing a good job of that yourself.lol
Just remember you can twist this new calling theory of yours any way you want it to make it look like solid fact, but anyone that's been even half way around the block as far as calling goes will see it for what it really is BULLS**T.Good Hunting and Good Day Chad
Posts: 1612 | From: Utah | Registered: Jan 2003
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