|
Author
|
Topic: Getting the itch yet ?
|
RedRabbit
Knows what it's all about
Member # 796
|
posted September 06, 2008 11:33 PM
Its getting cooler out there been rollin up and down I-15 and seein a few dogs in the fields and a few road kills the tails look fluffy already, but Im holding out till its more like October red in the trees you know. I dont know if I want to go spoil their day yet...What about you guys ?
Posts: 241 | From: SE IDAHO | Registered: Jan 2006
| IP: Logged
|
|
Kokopelli
SENIOR DISCOUNT & Dispenser of Sage Advice
Member # 633
|
posted September 07, 2008 03:42 AM
I wait until the fur is saleable; 'bout mid Oct.
Any calling that I do this early is with camera or bow (low percentage kill).
--------------------
And lo, the Light of the Trump shown upon the Darkness and the Darkness could not comprehend it.
Posts: 7577 | From: Under a wandering star | Registered: Apr 2005
| IP: Logged
|
|
TA17Rem
Hello, I'm the legendary Tim Anderson, Field Marshall, Southern Minneesota Sector
Member # 794
|
posted September 07, 2008 09:14 AM
As soon as the campout is over it wellbe killing time for me up in MN. I got quite ![[Razz]](tongue.gif) afew of them lined up for some calling and will see if they are going to play this year..
--------------------
What if I told you, the left wing and right wing both belong to same bird!
Posts: 5064 | From: S.D. | Registered: Jan 2006
| IP: Logged
|
|
Cdog911
"There are some ideas so absurd only an intellectual could believe them."--George Orwell.
Member # 7
|
posted September 07, 2008 10:55 AM
Don't normally do any this early, but had to this morning. While getting permissions this weekend, all my landowners in one area said the same thing. "Start now!!!" Same complaint about the same three coyotes hanging around a bit too much. Most in a strip of ground three miles long and a mile wide. Feedlot on the east end, calving pasture with about fifty cows in it due to calf this week, and grazing ground/ feedlot in the west section.
Stand number one was behind the first feedlot in the east section. About ten minutes in, he came up on a berm about 95 yards west of my gunner. Matt shot and missed, the coyote dropped out of site to leave. I immediately went to ki-yi'ing and he popped back up on the berm and offered up a broadside shot. he died.
Stand number two at the west end was uneventful. Stand number three was in a 160-acre pasture overlooking a lot of heavy cover with heavy trees bordering the far side and lots of sand plum, sumac, and cedars for coyotes to hide in and behind. About fifteen minutes in, I spotted what looked to be a good sized coyote. Ranged him at 350 looking straight on but didn't have a shot through the tallgrass right in front of me. Couldn't get him to commit with distress, so I gave him some pup distress and he came on in to about 275, give or take. I was waiting for him to clear a small clump pf cedars wj=hen he saw something he didn't like. spun around and simply disappeared. Matt saw him about that same time and said he went north up a small swale, but if he'd done that, I'd have seen him. Who knows?!? ![[Confused]](confused.gif)
We'll continue to work that area and another area where some guys that have been trying to screw with us hunt. We're gonna go tune up our guns on "their" coyotes and save ours for when the fur is good. With any luck, their ground will be "coyote free" by November 1. ![[Wink]](wink.gif)
--------------------
I am only one. But still, I am one. I cannot do everything, but still, I can do something; and, because I cannot do everything, I will not refuse to do something that I can do.
Posts: 5438 | From: The gun-lovin', gun-friendly wild, wild west | Registered: Jan 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
mifox
Knows what it's all about
Member # 721
|
posted September 09, 2008 06:05 PM
I've got the itch for sure. It's supposed to frost here tonight. ![[Smile]](smile.gif) It's nice to know that others hold off until the fur is decent. I'm a fur hunter and believe. ADC excepted, it's a waste of a resource to kill and walk away.
Posts: 11 | From: Michigan | Registered: Oct 2005
| IP: Logged
|
|
Az-Hunter
Hi, I'm Vic WELCOME TO THE U.S. Free baloney sandwiches here
Member # 17
|
posted September 09, 2008 08:23 PM
Still a month and a half away for me, here in southern Az. I start 1st of Nov. Got to shoot some doves, actually a lot of doves, so that took the edge off. Still have some reloading to do, rifles to shoot, plenty to keep busy till hunting time.
Just look at some of the photos of the coyotes that guys on other boards are shooting now, that can't seem to contain themselves from pulling a trigger, and you'll have reason enough not to hunt them just yet. Poor bastards still look like hell,and besides, the bugs and heat are still miserable!
Posts: 1627 | From: 5 miles west of Tim | Registered: Jan 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
Q-Wagoner
FREE TRIAL MEMBERSHIP
Member # 33
|
posted September 09, 2008 09:28 PM
I always wait till the fur is prime too. Problem animals of course are a different deal but I will stop short of calling it ADC. ADC is the most over used and least understood term on the Internet. Most guys think if they get a weeeeee little bit of encouragement from a landowner they think they are doing “ADC work”. LOL I think some people just like to think they are doing something extra special and like to see there name and ADC in the same post? Been seeing a lot of it this summer on other sights. Just tickles me I guess. LOL
Good hunting.
Q,
Posts: 617 | From: Nebraska | Registered: Jan 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
|
posted September 09, 2008 10:52 PM
Lance, you just going to sit there and take that?
edit: oops!
[ September 09, 2008, 10:52 PM: Message edited by: Leonard ]
--------------------
EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 31450 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
Cdog911
"There are some ideas so absurd only an intellectual could believe them."--George Orwell.
Member # 7
|
posted September 10, 2008 04:19 AM
Hey, ...whatever. When I depend upon them to let me on their ground and they want me on this or that tract "now", I do what I can. Maybe rather than "ADC", I should call it "PDC" - Predictive Damage Control.
I know better than to think that Q was aiming any of that at me, or he'd have said so. Besides, I still have a bobcat and a swift fox of his to do rugs of this week. Unless he wants a couple of freak show mounts with cyclops eyes or something like that, he just knows better. LOL
I'll still be out there this weekend, killinmg that last slick coyote I'm after - just because it chooses to live on that one tract of ground. I'll cope with the guilt later.
--------------------
I am only one. But still, I am one. I cannot do everything, but still, I can do something; and, because I cannot do everything, I will not refuse to do something that I can do.
Posts: 5438 | From: The gun-lovin', gun-friendly wild, wild west | Registered: Jan 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
Locohead
World Famous Smoke Dancer
Member # 15
|
posted September 10, 2008 09:21 AM
How did the kit fox fair with a swift hole?
I thought grey foxes were small, those swift (kit whatever) are half the size of my cat!
[ September 10, 2008, 09:23 AM: Message edited by: Locohead ]
--------------------
I love my critters and chick!!!! :)
Posts: 2219 | From: CO | Registered: Jan 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
|
posted September 10, 2008 12:31 PM
A kit fox rug? Never seen one, but, I do have a jackal "rug" that sure is a runt.
Lance, I knew Q wasn't talking about you. Wiley E maybe, but not Quinton. I just thought it was funny.
Good hunting. LB
--------------------
EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 31450 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
Q-Wagoner
FREE TRIAL MEMBERSHIP
Member # 33
|
posted September 10, 2008 01:22 PM
My next trip to Africa I am going to get a nice jackal for a rug as well as a few other predators. I have a ton of skins but not any rugs other than a zebra. The kit fox BTW was shot between the eyes with an HMR. I wanted a mount of one of those little guys for a long time. I think before to long they will be completely protected.
In the above post I am not bashing Lance or anyone in particular. It is just a subject that is always brought up during the off-season and I think it is a good subject. The whole issue is not a right or wrong deal. It is just how some people perceive it or rather “choose” to perceive it. In the end how someone chooses to perceive it always lines up directly with their personal interests. Myself included.
Anyone can deal with their landowners or coyotes any way they want to. Some ranchers’ idea of problem animals is if they see one standing in their field to often. Every year I have ranchers hit me up about hunting coyotes. Mostly it is just to make conversation. Such as “Hey Quint, been seei’n some coyotes around, ya better get after them.” I just reply, well a couple more months and they are going to be in trouble. Keep them fat for me.” Then we just talk about something else. If the same rancher said the same thing to some one else they may take it as something completely different and go after the coyotes like a knight in shining armor. That is fine too but it is just not my thing.
If I get approached directly about killing a coyote I will enquire about the situation and then decide what to do. Nine times out of ten the rancher is worried about a coyote or a pair that he sees regularly and not about any kind of stock losses. In these cases I just tell them that it isn’t uncommon for that to happen. They are just seeing those more than others because they haven’t been shot at for a while. It is not that they are necessarily up to no good it is just that they haven’t gotten wised up yet. If they were wised up they would just be standing in the same field at night rather than in the day. Out of sight is out of mind.
I just go on to say that I don’t like to kill coyotes during the summer because they have pups or pre season because the fur is of no value. When I tell them I don’t like to waste the animals I hunt and would rather utilize the fur they completely respect that. I have hunted for a long long time and have hundreds of thousands acres to hunt and can say that I have not lost a single acre of land to hunt because I didn’t hunt coyotes when ask to.
I have heard it said many times that people hunt coyotes when ever a rancher asks because they think if they don’t, the rancher will get some one else in to do it and they will loose a place to hunt. That may be true sometimes in some places for some reasons but it has never happened to me and I doubt that it ever will. This whole scenario makes me think that either the hunter has poor relations with the ranchers or they are paranoid? On much of the ground I hunt on I am a personal friend of the owners. They respect my reasons and judgment but if they are hell bent on killing coyotes for no other reason than they just don’t want them there that is there prerogative and they can either kill them there selves or find someone else to hunt them. That doesn’t automatically mean that I will not be allowed to hunt them come fall.
For me I think it helps in the long run that I am completely honest with the landowners. They appreciate the fact that I am frank with them and tell them what I think about their situation. In most cases I think they respect me even more for it. If the coyotes are truly not a problem, which is usually the case, I can easily explain to them why I would rather wait to hunt them. This leaves them with the impression of professionalism and they realize I am very serious about what I do. On the other hand if the coyotes truly are a problem, which is almost never the case, I will do my very best to do the job right.
Hunting coyotes is just not that important to me to kill them outside of the fur season. I have shot plenty of coyotes. For me, excluding a legitimate complaint, it is a complete waste of time and gas if you can’t skin it in the end.
Good hunting.
Q,
Posts: 617 | From: Nebraska | Registered: Jan 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
coyote whacker
Knows what it's all about
Member # 639
|
posted September 10, 2008 02:29 PM
ADC men in sheep country are pro active and not reactive to the landowners.That is the way the majority of landowners who raise sheep are. The whole aspect of ADC is to keep losses as low as one can. Denning pairs within 2 miles of "most" bands of sheep at some point will make a run or more than one at those lambs sometime during the summer.
I would have a guilty conscience knowing I have located denning situations close to my sheep producers and wait until loss occurs, given the history of loss in these peoples lives.
Can I weigh the monetary/esthetic value of a coyote family versus 3-15 lambs which this landowner counts on to feed his family and takes to market for a 103.00 avg each?
Good coyote habitat will always fill back in, time of year dictaits how fast that fill in takes place, the argument could be made by taking out that agressive older pair by ADC workers, are helping to promote fall fill in for recreational callers and trappers. Good habitat with an agressive pair may support more young of year coyotes now that, that pair has been removed from the area.
--------------------
This is done on my time and my dime. My views may differ from those of others!
Posts: 376 | From: USA | Registered: Apr 2005
| IP: Logged
|
|
Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
|
posted September 10, 2008 02:32 PM
I agree with that attitude completely, Quinton.
However, and as you indicated; there is room for others to do what they want without my input and advice. I respect the denning season, but I don't hunt fur. A little control work in the spring is fine with me, although I wouldn't have a clue how to go about it, personally? Targeting specific animals.
Another thing, there are those land owners that definitely want every coyote dead, and if it was a ticket in, I have no problem with a hunter keeping good relationships. But, I don't do it, and I hunt public land, so I don't have to kiss any ass.
Good hunting. LB
--------------------
EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 31450 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
Cdog911
"There are some ideas so absurd only an intellectual could believe them."--George Orwell.
Member # 7
|
posted September 10, 2008 03:50 PM
Quinton and I are fully aware of one another's stance on this issue, and neither of us has ever done anything to make the other think there is anything but full and total respect for the other's position. In fact, I agree wholeheartedly with the reasons he states for not getting involved in what does, in fact, often stem from the neuroses of a few farmers or producers who, because of the way they run their operation, contribute to their own problems.
In the case of the two coyotes I am after now, the remaining individual is a chronic offender that seems to go against conventional thinking relative to your typical coyote. In and around these parts, most of my area producers have gone to September calving to offset calving time away from coyote denning. In nearly every instance, this change from January/ February calving has virtually eliminated coyote depredation losses.
Last year, this distinctly large silver-blonde coyote was observed feeding upon one of a pair of low weight twin calves that were born the day before. The producer went back to recover both calves to bring them in and one was already dead and partially consumed. Veterinarian assessment of the carcass revealed no other medical reason to believe that the calf had died and been scavenged but rather, it had been killed. In this same pasture, the one we called in last on Sunday and where I saw but didn't get a shot at a large blonde coyote, a set of twin calves were stillborn and both promptly eaten last week. The producer is simply concerned that this single event has effectively primed the pump prior to his cows dropping at least another fifty calves over the next ten days there and he wants the coyotes dealt with proactively prior to a larger problem occurring. Because the presumed offending coyote was not taken last year, and has been seen this year already in the same area, they're simply asking for a little help.
In this area, thanks to a state legislature that has been very pro-commercialization as far as hunting, guiding and outfitting go, barely a very small fraction of the available acreage around here is open to regular guys wanting to hunt. Most all of the rest is off limits because of guides, outfitters, or non-residents with deep pockets leasing it up for deer season. Since less than 3% of this state is actually publicly owned, and the millions of acres leased for Walk-In Hunting Access (WIHA) by the state of Kansas are hammered so hard that no self-respecting coyote would ever be there in the light of day, you either do what you can to keep access privileges on private land or you simply find another way to spend your leisure time. It's really as simple as that.
Because I have, for years, offered my experience and assistance to producers when they perceive a problem, I have access to a lot of ground that other people cannot get near.
In fact, the feedlot owner upon whose ground we killed the 1 y/o male Sunday lets no one but me and the two guys that work for him have the run of his place. Anyone else has to call the night before and hope he's in a good mood. In the majority of cases, he tells them no. As much as I would like to think that Arden would engage me in conversation about coyotes and jokingly tell me to "get started", the reality is that I don't know that he even has a sense of humor as I've only seen him smile once, maybe twice, in the twenty-five years I've hunted his ground, and those times were both as he looked at a freshly killed coyotes, and a bobcat that had killed his wife's favorite cat outside their deck door in full view of their family during Sunday dinner. If Arden says to start killing now, I start killing now. He's a major player in the area cattle industry and a good word from him has opened more than a couple otherwise locked gates over the years.
Truth is, I simply don't have time to hunt coyotes right now, and if it were up to me, I wouldn't be. If and when I get a call, I generally go out, assess the situation and try my best to find something the producer is doing to contribute to the problem, counsel them on how to change that in hopes that by doing so, the problem will go away. Sometimes that works. Sometimes it doesn't. And sometimes, it buys me a month or so of time so I can at least get the coyotes closer to fur season so there's something to use once I get them down. Most guys around here don't have a problem putting the actual killing off if we can at least shut down the losses for a while.
Maybe this isn't how Cal or Scott do it, but they get paid to do what they do whereas my pay comes in free access. Right now, we have quite a few plates spinning in this household and me sitting amongst the ragweed only takes valuable time away from when I should be addressing a handful of family crises that better deserve my attention. Although I feel like I'm experiencing deja vu, rehashing this conversation for the ump-teenth time, and suspect that I will only come under attack yet again for my thoughts here, this is a method that works for me and with which I do as good a job or better for these guys as anyone else around here, including the guys that are willing to trap when the game warden is too busy to help these guys himself (Which is pretty much all the time). Therefore, anyone who thinks they know my situation here better than I do from what they read into my comments online, as opposed to what I know for a fact to be true, save your energy if you try to require that I defend anything I do or say here. I actually had to have my teenage son arrested Sunday night and, as such, my attentions are elsewhere and my fuse is a bit short these days.
On a lighter note, I've thought about the phrase I coined above today and intend to make it a part of the conventional calling lexicon: Predictive Depredation Mitigation, a.k.a., PDM*.
The ADC guys go after the evil doers of the coyote world. Although much of that work is proactive, as opposed to reactive, there are many instances where their expertise is called upon to go in and neutralize individual coyotes that have crossed the line. Those guys are good at that and I have the greatest respect for that ability and talent.
I, on the other hand, don't get paid to spend that much time working an individual or family group and my real job and family consume what time I do have. (If the bastards in this state would let me hunt at night, that would free up some good time to target coyotes, but noooooooooo.....) Therefore, my goal, when I go hunting, is to show the farmer a dead coyote - hopefully the one they've been seeing. In doing so, they let me on their ground. If I'm lucky, they include a clause in their lease agreements that I have full access to their properties, leased or not, and the leasor has no right to forbid me reasonable access whenever I want to call and kill predators. This is the case on several properties. Better yet, if I keep them really happy, they share my name with the guys at the feed store or coffee shop and the next time I see them, they tell me to go get so-and-so's signature so I can hunt another 2k acres that they have as well. (Coyotes, like Iraqis, often die for no other reason than backroom politics.)
Nutshells and brass tacks, if they want a coyote dead, and I get the chance to make that happen, I do my best. If it isn't necessarily the one that did the dirty deed, I keep trying until I get the one that did, time permitting. As far as those that may have died unnecessarily, they're collateral damage and it's easy to write them off as possible offenders that simply haven't offended ... YET. That's where the "Predictive" part comes in. LOL (It's also a philosophy that I'm applying to the dirtbag POS's that my son has been running with, and who contributed to the crisis we now face in this household leading to his recent incarceration. Just like the Kevin Bacon game, all facets of my life are interconnected in some way. Now, if I can only find a way to convince the County Attorney to agree to my new "Predictive Dirtbag Mitigation Program".)
* Besides the entire concept of PDM will no doubt chap someone's ass, and that's okay, too. Personally, I think it's funnier than hell.
--------------------
I am only one. But still, I am one. I cannot do everything, but still, I can do something; and, because I cannot do everything, I will not refuse to do something that I can do.
Posts: 5438 | From: The gun-lovin', gun-friendly wild, wild west | Registered: Jan 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
|
posted September 10, 2008 04:20 PM
ATT SCOTT
Clean up on isle #4!
--------------------
EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 31450 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
Q-Wagoner
FREE TRIAL MEMBERSHIP
Member # 33
|
posted September 10, 2008 05:00 PM
That is a good definition of Animal Damage Control Coyote Whacker. Some people just look at the proactive approach a little differently than I do. After all every coyote that you kill will likely kill and eat some kind of animal that hunters like to hunt. I could say that I kill coyotes in June because they eat pheasants and would be right. With the dozens of other prey species that coyotes eat along with pheasants does it really make any difference whether you shoot them in June or not? Yes or no could be right depending on how the hunter perceives it. To some people even one pheasant is too many but statistically it may in fact make no real difference in the pheasant population if you hunted coyotes outside of the denning season.
There are landowners that want every coyote dead. It seams like every one that hunts coyotes and logs on the Internet hunts only on those ranches. LOL In my county I know a few of those guys. I also know a few that will not let anyone hunt because they think that the coyotes keep the gofers under control. Others yet will try to charge you $300 a day to hunt them. You have these neighboring ranches all trying something different. To me none of it makes any sense.
As I stated above, “In the end how someone chooses to perceive it always lines up directly with their personal interests. Myself included.” How these different landowners deal or “use” there coyotes is inline with their personal interests.
In my experience there is a small percentage that wants them all dead and a small percentage that wants them all alive. An even smaller percentage wants you to pay them to hunt. By far the vast majority of ranchers let me on because they like me and they know I am not going to leave the gates down or shoot their windmills. That is the bottom line. It doesn’t make a hoot to them whether I shoot them in June or January because where I live and work is cattle country. Around here it is only once in a blue moon that a coyote ever causes any real problems.
If I have heard it once I have heard it a hundred times. Coyotes do in fact get the blame for a LOT of things they are simply not responsible for. It will range from no pheasants like there use to be to no trophy deer. Lots of stillborn calves get chalked up to coyote kills as well. My personal favorite is “saving the fawns.” There is no doubt that coyotes kill fawns and in some areas it is necessary to control coyotes to protect some herds but the overall picture looks quite a bit different.
Acording to Car-Accidents.com There are more than 1.5 million crashes involving deer each year which cause over one billion in damage, 150 of the deer collisions are fatal, and there are more than 10,000 people injured
Despite the fact that the damage caused by coyotes is not even in the same galaxy as what deer do some people make it sound like all coyotes need to die to save the deer. It is also odd that there are not more hunters up in arms about ADC for deer. LOL I wonder how well it would be received on a deer hunting board if some dude proposed a year-round season on whitetails. LOL That debate would be worth watching. LOL
Good hunting.
Q,
Posts: 617 | From: Nebraska | Registered: Jan 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
Tim Behle
Administrator MacNeal Sector
Member # 209
|
posted September 10, 2008 05:02 PM
I've always been of the opinion, that if some dumbass was foolish enough to try raising sheep in coyote country then
A) he's going to get what he deserves for being stupid, every spring and summer. And
B) He probably also dumb enough to pay me at least twice what the fur is worth when prime.
I have not problem with taking coyotes for good money at any time of the year. And I always did like Nistetter's old Sig line "I like to wait until the fur primes up, before I leave them lay"
You guys who live in "Sheep country" have it easy! They make great coyote bait!
--------------------
Personally, I carry a gun because I'm too young to die and too old to take
an ass kickin'.
Posts: 3160 | From: Five Miles East of Vic, AZ | Registered: Jun 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
coyote whacker
Knows what it's all about
Member # 639
|
posted September 10, 2008 06:35 PM
Cdog wrote:. In and around these parts, most of my area producers have gone to September calving to offset calving time away from coyote denning. In nearly every instance, this change from January/ February calving has virtually eliminated coyote depredation losses.
Sorry but I find little of this to do with saving spring calves? Coyote pups's are born in April and majority in May. If you spring calve in Jan/Feb by the time the pup's are weaned and looking for solid foods those calves for the most part are to big for 28-32lb coyotes to piss with. So the denning issue and calving time are a non issue. The calves that get taken and is far,far less than lambs due to make up of the livestock in a big way, are all taken by adult coyotes in a Jan/Feb calving time frame so what is the gain by calving in Sept and October when dealing with adult coyotes?
I will agree many issues blamed on coyotes are simply not the case, more so on cattle than sheep. The majority of sheep men in my area are very in tune as to what coyote damage is and what it looks like. Sheep much more defensless than cow/calf pairs for sure.
Cattle are far different than sheep and you may get by due to the makeup of cattle to put things off or change some things.
Look at the pheasant nesting success study done by Delta in NE SD this last spring and see the blocks trapped versus non trapped and the success rated that followed in the trapping blocks, very interesting.
In parts of wyoming they did indeed nock back the coyote population durring denning to increase the doe/kid counts on antelope and it worked. Helping another resource away from AG.
Tim B wrote: I've always been of the opinion, that if some dumbass was foolish enough to try raising sheep in coyote country then
A) he's going to get what he deserves for being stupid, every spring and summer. And
B) He probably also dumb enough to pay me at least twice what the fur is worth when prime.
Tim tells me you know little about the land in the Northern plains. This ground is not set up for much crop, as way to little rain and there is good money in sheep. The way they raise sheep here is the most economical to the producer in the US. They start on grass on larger open range pastures and then sold to feed lots, the ground 1. Is far cheaper than the East or Midwest so you can raise more for less money. When you figure in AUM"s you get more bang for your buck off of this grass than running cattle, drought conditions are prevelant and sheep are easier on the grass in such conditions.
The sheepmen are a dying breed due to the work involved in lambing and the time one must devote to them, cattle easier for the "most part" and also less attention needed as they mature. The benfefit is more head per acre, you have them in April/May your input cost much lower than cattle and in 5 months your turning them over to feed lots and they avg around 97.00-103.00 for a 90lb lamb.Plus the wool market has come up and they have a secondary value in that reguard as well.
If you never had lamb chops/leg of lamb your missing out!
Sheepmen are not dumbasses, they are another important part of our AG makeup in the US. Also define coyote country in the US anymore? Which part of the US should we be raising the 2.2 billion dollars generated from sheep production that would be coyote free?
Our federal government mandates us to help livestock producers against depredation, be it goats,sheep,cattle,turkeys etc,etc.
--------------------
This is done on my time and my dime. My views may differ from those of others!
Posts: 376 | From: USA | Registered: Apr 2005
| IP: Logged
|
|
TA17Rem
Hello, I'm the legendary Tim Anderson, Field Marshall, Southern Minneesota Sector
Member # 794
|
posted September 10, 2008 07:08 PM
quote:
Look at the pheasant nesting success study done by Delta in NE SD this last spring and see the blocks trapped versus non trapped and the success rated that followed in the trapping blocks, very interesting.
I believe Ducks unlimited did something simuler..
They had all the pred.'s trapped out of a nesting area except the coyotes.. They said the coyotes killed any fox or raccons that moved back into area and that the coyotes did not prey on the ducks as often as the other pred..
Two years ago i had a farmer call and said the coyotes where howling something awfull behind his place the nite before and asked if i would go in and thin them out..
I followed two sets of tracks along a ditch that ran through the farmers land. One set stayed on top and the second stayed on the ice .. I could tell from the story the tracks was telling that the two coyotes where working together to get food..
The coyote on top was forceing the pheasants to the bottom of ditch to the other coyote which caught and kill two pheasants. This went on for some time untill i finally jumped the coyotes bedded nearby and after a short chase there pheasant hunting was ended..
Where i live a large portion of the coyotes around here are found in the CRP feeding on the mice and pheasants..
--------------------
What if I told you, the left wing and right wing both belong to same bird!
Posts: 5064 | From: S.D. | Registered: Jan 2006
| IP: Logged
|
|
Q-Wagoner
FREE TRIAL MEMBERSHIP
Member # 33
|
posted September 10, 2008 10:57 PM
Sheepmen are a dying breed all over the country. They are drying up all over Texas as well as MT, WY and SD. I didn’t think there were any big sheep places left in SD? Anyway where they are running into problems in TX is that all the big sheep ranches are either selling out to “big money” for deer hunting or switching over to cattle/deer hunting operations or just hunting. When they do that they drop there guard and get away from the intense predator management that is required in that country. To make it worse a lot of the low fence guys are tearing out there sheep fence and replacing it with barbwire to cut costs. In TX those sheep fences are a gravy train for a trapper. All this adds to the strain on the guys that are still in the sheep business.
You head out west and it is all cattle country and the coyotes are as thick as lice in many areas. Predator control is not that high on the priority list for many ranches. The money now is good enough for the big mule dear they produce down there that some ranches are taking some measures to help enhance there deer herds.
Here in Nebraska more and more units are giving out bonus doe tags to help crop the numbers and muzzleloader tags and bow tags are unlimited. Our coyotes are just not living up to there reputation. LOL
Good hunting.
Q,
Posts: 617 | From: Nebraska | Registered: Jan 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
Cdog911
"There are some ideas so absurd only an intellectual could believe them."--George Orwell.
Member # 7
|
posted September 11, 2008 04:44 AM
coyote whacker,
I guess you either failed to get my point, or I failed to make it. Nice numbers, but they're irrelevant. Say what you will, and try to support what you say with numbers from elsewhere, but when a guy is losing newborn calves in Jan/ Feb at $500 a whack, but changes his scheme to Sept calving and eliminates his losses entirely, his perception, misguided or not, and whether or not is agrees with "the numbers" is that the change contributed to what he perceives as a more tenable situation. Why that happened can be for any of a number of different reasons - extreme cold being one. But, again, whatever the reason, nothing else matters but the perception of the producer. And, as I tried to point out, access to property here is a premium, and if I don't demonstrate a willingness to help him out at his request, and on his schedule, he'll find someone else that is and, in doing so, I've lost not only his ground to hunt on, but likely anyone else who he tells that I wouldn't help him any more than to spout a bunch of figures, numbers and facts that don't have a thing to do with him. Politics and perceptions.
No, if given the choice, I'd rather not be killing slick coyotes. But, in following up with these guys, the loss averages right at $500 per calf per kill, and it's hard to justify saving an $8 Kansas coyote until November so I can line my pocket when that same coyote, or one of its packmates, just took $500 from his.
I don't know how your producers are in your country, but if I showed up trying to tell them something that disagrees with what they and their colleagues are convinced is, in fact, a fact, they'll show me the gate and tell me never to come back. I've got a sense of humor. Most of them don't. They're barely operating at a profit to begin with and when they say hunt, I hunt. Otherwise, I won't.
In the vast majority of cases, and I cannot think of even one exception in all honesty, I have removed the offending coyote almost with the initial kill. I've been lucky in that respect, and kept the guys happy. But, even if I had to kill six to get to the one that needed killing (again, think my $8 versus their $500), that's okay. Goes back to PDM - if they haven't been a problem yet, the producer is convinced that they soon will be. Not necessarily my opinion, but theirs. All they wanna see is "good coyotes". Those that die, do so for my longterm better good. Like it or not, that's the reality.
--------------------
I am only one. But still, I am one. I cannot do everything, but still, I can do something; and, because I cannot do everything, I will not refuse to do something that I can do.
Posts: 5438 | From: The gun-lovin', gun-friendly wild, wild west | Registered: Jan 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
coyote whacker
Knows what it's all about
Member # 639
|
posted September 11, 2008 11:49 AM
Q due to a better market the last few years we have maintained since then and also more keeping back ewe lambs for next years breeding stock, we had 1 person who had no sheep 1.5 years ago now runs 4,000 head. As long as lambs trade in that 100.00 ball park the market will stay stable and not drop off. The drought was a major factor in declining livestock numbers in this part of the country, now we have had ample moisture, dams are once full again and they have grass to eat and alot of hay put up this summer, those numbers will rebound fast! AS both markets cattle and sheep are decent.
Our fences are mixed due to alot of it really old and woven wire much more costly than barb fencing, so we don't have the gravy train fencing in as many spots anymore. 5 Wire barbed or 3 is what 60%+ of my sheep fence is. They make do with what they have or what is more cost effective fencing. The woven helps the trapper more so than the sheep man,as those coyotes can still penetrait this fence. Low spots, dig unders etc. I snared a wet bitch lasy year on woven wire that didn't have much clearance, most would have walked by and said no way is a coyote using that spot, I went on a gut feeling and 3 days later it paid off. Most of the snare was above the fence. The direction of the male and dry bitch when shot with the plane helped some. I had the other 2 spots that are more text book covered and found them to only be used by jacks.
Head out west in Nebraska you mean? As many places of NW SD,Eastern and SE Eastern WY and places in MT are not thick like lice and if they where those sheepmen would not be happy! Not to mention mange in many areas very bad.
Cdog not trying to pick a fight, but pup's are born in April and May your calf loss in Jan/Feb are not from family units feeling added pressure to supply those hungry mouths with food.At calving time you get adult coyotes to congregate in these pastures, placenta is a main drive for those coyotes high in protein,. I would say those pregnant bitch coyotes seek it out alot as they are carrying pup's and that adds some to it, but in Sept you also have family units of coyotes and calving at this time could lead into problems of teaching young coyotes with experienced adults as a form of food in those new born calves in the month Sept.
The main issue is cattle depredation is not like sheep loss, you won't find in a night 3-12 calf's taken down just for fun like you do sheep. The closer one keeps their livestock to daily human activity and presents those coyotes with less opportunity the better off one will be overall on loss.
Large range ground and good pasture MGMT means moving livestock around and it is some of these pastures where the coyotes have the upper hand, that has always been and always will be the case.
We can't correlate Jan/Feb losses with denning or pup's eating solid foods. At this time of year "Jan/Feb" around calving areas coyotes will tolerate others and again in the fall as it progresses and the pup's grow, now pretty well good sized, and get way more Mobil the intensity of defending the "core" denning area wains.
I understand why some like to do ADC and while others don't, it is a choice we all make and I like to help and solve wildlife conflicts that is why I chose this profession, we certainly don't get rich LOL! The challange is what drives those that do year round ADC, as most cases are new and different in subtle ways and helping out producers and seeing they can take as many calves and lambs to market as possible is rewarding. One must master many tools in order to be efficant in ADC work another plus in it all for me and others like me. Good day!
--------------------
This is done on my time and my dime. My views may differ from those of others!
Posts: 376 | From: USA | Registered: Apr 2005
| IP: Logged
|
|
Greenside
seems to know what he is talking about
Member # 10
|
posted September 11, 2008 12:13 PM
CW are you Randy B?
Posts: 719 | From: IA | Registered: Jan 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
tlbradford
Rimfires are MAGIC on COYOTES! If you do your part
Member # 1232
|
posted September 11, 2008 12:44 PM
I would agree with coyote whacker that when the coyotes are denning it would not make them more likely to hit the calving grounds.
I believe the cattle ranchers could be seeing less loss from predation with a fall calving season vs. Jan/Feb for a couple of reasons.
The coyotes gather at calving grounds to eat the placentas and scavange any still borns or calves that die shortly after birth. They are concentrated even more on the calving grounds in Jan/Feb because this is readily available food that does not need to be chased, and a lot of their food sources are not available at this time of year. In September, there is fruit to be eaten, the mice are running around, there are a lot of young birds and rabbits, and gut piles from hunters. They do not need to congregate on food sources, like they need to in Jan/Feb. The warmer weather also equates into animals needing less calories to stay warm, so they do not need to eat as much. It is also more likely for a rancher to spend more time out with the cattle during the warmer weather, rather than in below zero temps. That would help keep the coyotes at bay.
If everything else was equal the coyotes would adjust their eating habits to hit the calving grounds when the calves are dropping, but Lance's results suggest they are not. My guess is for the reasons I stated above, but that is an opinion and you know what those are like.
I also agree with Q that ADC is way overused. I have a lot of dryland wheat farmers in my area and most of them like having coyotes around to keep the mice population in check.
--------------------
"Dan Carey ain't that special" - LB
Posts: 423 | From: Spokane Valley, WA | Registered: Mar 2007
| IP: Logged
|
|
|
UBBFriend: Email this page to someone!
Printer-friendly view of this topic
