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Author
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Topic: Howling Question
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Kokopelli
SENIOR DISCOUNT & Dispenser of Sage Advice
Member # 633
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posted November 08, 2010 05:59 AM
From what I've been reading lately, coyote vocalizations are now 'the thing'. I can see where, when used properly, it would have value for hunting coyotes. My question is, what about fox & bobcat?? Is all of this howling going to intimidate other furbearers and prevent them from coming into the stand set-up?? I hunt in brush quite a bit & would hate to think that I was calling in coyotes at the expense of a high dollar 'cat.
What say ye, the assembled masses????
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And lo, the Light of the Trump shown upon the Darkness and the Darkness could not comprehend it.
Posts: 7579 | From: Under a wandering star | Registered: Apr 2005
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Rich
2,000th post PAKMAN
Member # 112
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posted November 08, 2010 06:25 AM
Kokopelli,
Cats have been known to come in after the howling, but I am betting that the howls stop them from coming in more often than not. I use the howls for coyotes, but our bobcat season is mighty short here in Iowa.
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If you call the coyotes in close, you won't NEED a high dollar range finder.
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Kelly Jackson
SECOND PLACE/GARTH BROOKS LOOK-A-LIKE CONTEST
Member # 977
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posted November 08, 2010 10:24 AM
I had two cats come in last week after using coyote vocals at the start of the stand.
In Texas, I have had fox come in after I was giving a challange howl.
So in almost everything regarding predators. Sometimes it don't matter.
Stay after them
Kelly
PS if I am after cats. I do not howl or call very loud.
[ November 08, 2010, 10:26 AM: Message edited by: Kelly Jackson ]
Posts: 997 | From: Comanche OK | Registered: Oct 2006
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R.Shaw
Peanut Butter Man, da da da da DAH!
Member # 73
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posted November 08, 2010 10:55 AM
If I am in an area where there are both cats and coyotes, I will howl at the beginning of the stand. Then on to prey distress for the duration. Several cats have come on in after the howl.
It has been my experience, that a howl midways will stop a cats approach. As long as you dont stay on the coyote vocals, the cat can be coaxed on in but normally takes a while.
Randy
Posts: 545 | From: Nebraska | Registered: Jan 2003
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted November 08, 2010 01:20 PM
With no intention to contradict anything said, I think the negative aspects of howling, in regards to bobcat is greatly, shall we say, misunderstood?
These cats spend their whole life listening to coyote vocalizations. Hell, who knows, maybe they understand them?
Anyway, cats come in fast and they come in slow. I have not proved, (nor am I inclined to believe it is possible to prove, one way or another) ....that a bobcat will check up or not come in at all because he heard a coyote howl, with or without accompanying prey distress. It is extremely hard to prove a negative.
When was the last time you saw evidence of a coyote killing a bobcat? Me neither. They are like Republicans and Democrats, they have to more or less tolerate each other. They cohabitate the same areas, they don't abandon country because of coyotes.
I would like to see somebody stand on a cliff, observing a caller below. I would like to see a cat approach the stand. (difficult to envision, I know, but suspend the disbelief for a minute) Okay, you spot the cat approaching the call and you switch to coyote vocals. I wonder what the bobcat is going to do?
I ssuspect, he is going to act very catlike and approach the stand to the point where he can observe the layout. Maybe howls will alter his behavior a bit, but if he is hooked, it is hard for him to throw the hook until his curiosity is satisfied. Not every successful bobcat stand ends with a cat poking his head in a speaker. They usually halt their progress, (assuming no decoy) and just observe, right up until the BANG.
I have spotted a good percentage of cats while leaving a stand, meaning they approached, evaluated and got bored and left without my assistance. When that happens, it is very difficult to turn them around.... although the word "impossible" was considered.
If they hear a coyote in the same proximity as a distress, they are curious and completely confident that they can observe, undetected.
I have personally never made a stand with nothing but coyote vocals, therfore, I have never had a bobcat approach a stand when I was using only coyote vocals. I guess it could happen, simply because of the curiosity factor? But, this is theoretical, is it not?
Good hunting. LB
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 31459 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
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R.Shaw
Peanut Butter Man, da da da da DAH!
Member # 73
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posted November 08, 2010 04:42 PM
I have an advantage here because we have squirrels. Blue jays will lie about a cat approach, but squirrels, especially greys seldom lie about that.
Here, you can sometimes track a cats approach all the way in simply by listening to their boogger barking. When the cat leaves the immediate vicinity of the squirrel, the squirrel stops barking. If the cat stops, the barking does not. Of course I cannot prove this because I cant see it, but have seen the scenario play out many times.
That is the reason for me saying a howl can sometimes slow the approach of a cat. Have had squirrels not shutup for over 45 minutes and I continue to change prey distress and eventually kill the cat.
Having said that. I believe if you throw an adult tom in a closed room with an adult coyote, the cat will walk out.
Randy
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Cdog911
"There are some ideas so absurd only an intellectual could believe them."--George Orwell.
Member # 7
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posted November 08, 2010 06:40 PM
Just my experience, and this happened in the last couple weeks. Like ARShaw, I'll generally open a stand with a couple howls and stick to distress for the remainder unless something happens that I feel I need to go back to them such as seeing a coyote departing or hanging up and, if he doesn't react to anything else, try to break him loose with a ki-yi. IMO, and we've called about 8 cats in just the last three weekends and we can't shoot them for another 9 days (grrrrr), cats are so damned dumb that if you open with howls and then go to distress, they focus on the distress and completely forget that a coyote howled moments before. Of the 8 I've called recently, four of those cats got to within kissing distance of the caller and, without exception, all four got the hell out of Dodge when I switched to ANY coyote vocalization. In fact, the most dramatic was a female (looked like) that had crossed a hundred yards of cut bean field to within six feet of the caller. When I hit the howl button, she leaped five feet straight into the air and was facing the opposite direction when she hit the ground. Her egress was at full throttle and zigging and zagging like her ass was on fire.
Last season, before I cold shoot cats, I had one in particular stalking the caller so I decided to take this great opportunity to see how it reacted to different sounds. Low-pitched jackrabbit distress bored him. He stopped, sat down, looked at the caller and would frequently look around. Switch to a high-pitched sound like rodent distress and he would jump to his feet, stick his tail straight up in the air and flare the white tip of it so it looked like a bleached dandelion. As long as the bird distress or other high-pitched sound was going, he would stay there taut as piano wire, staring intently at the TOA speaker like he was about to explode. As soon as I switched into something lower pitched, the tail would drop and he would sit down and get all bored again. We went back and forth like that for most of a half-hour before I hit a howl and sent him sprinting back for the nearby creek.
Thursday, I called the last of those eight cats and he stepped out of CRP grass at about 200 yards. The caller was playing jackrabbit distress to try and pierce the wind. Yes, I'd opened with howls. The cat just sat there, until I switched to a higher pitched cottontail distress which immediately brought him to his feet and he began loping in. This worked well until he was assaulted by a raft of crows who ran him back into the tall grass.
A lot can be learned when one overcomes the sudden urge to kill at first sight and allow the responding predator to teach you a few invaluable lessons. Then, kill it.
Short answer to the question, IME, howl early and it doesn't make a difference.
PS. Caught a big tom in a trap once who, by the evidence in the snow around him, had spent the night fending off a pack of coyotes. He had a few bite marks and a really bad attitude when I arrived, but I'm willing to bet there were a few coyote nearby who were hurtin' in a bad way, too. Spots of blood in the snow well back from the cat showed that he'd left at least one mark.
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I am only one. But still, I am one. I cannot do everything, but still, I can do something; and, because I cannot do everything, I will not refuse to do something that I can do.
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Cdog911
"There are some ideas so absurd only an intellectual could believe them."--George Orwell.
Member # 7
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posted November 08, 2010 06:46 PM
Also, to answer Elbee's scenario... I saw something similar to what you describe the season before last. I was calling using the M-1 in a small 1-acre plot with trees on all side. Several minutes into the call, I spotted something in the grass about 30 yards out. Through the scope, I found an eye and ears looking very, very bobcat like. Unfortunately, with the eye centered in the field of view, I also found a coyote putting the stalk on the cat at about 2 o'clock, twenty yards further out. That cat had forty yards or better to the nearest cover and I was sitting there with both my 22-250 and my 12 gauge. I lined up on the coyote and lip squeaked. The coyote raised its head and I dropped it with a round through its neck. I immediately grabbed the shotgun as I stood up and ran toward where I'd last seen the cat in hopes of getting a running shot as it went for the cover of the trees. Never did find that cat and wondered, after the fact, if I might have been better off staying hidden and working to call the cat on in. In the heat of battle, I got all crazy. LOL The cat was very concerned about that coyote until I shot. After that I can't tell you what he thought, except that he didn't stick around for introductions or to tell me thanks for saving his butt.
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I am only one. But still, I am one. I cannot do everything, but still, I can do something; and, because I cannot do everything, I will not refuse to do something that I can do.
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted November 08, 2010 07:00 PM
Interesting. This is new, to me about gray squirrels snitching on bobcat? Am I to believe it doesn't happen with coyotes? Or, not as much?
Also interesting is the comment about locking a tom bobcat and an adult coyote in a room. Geeze, everything tells me the cat has more weapons and is faster, but I would have a hard time betting against the coyote walking out of the room. Coyotes are bold, and don't hesitate to chase a cat, at all. Probably because they know the cat's first reaction is to run? But, cornered, against a pair of coyotes, I don't think a bobcat would sell it's life cheep. I think the cat would make it not worth it, and the conflict would end in a Mexican standoff.
Gray squirrel information is a waste on me because I can't hear them chatter.
Good hunting. LB
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 31459 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
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Kelly Jackson
SECOND PLACE/GARTH BROOKS LOOK-A-LIKE CONTEST
Member # 977
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posted November 08, 2010 07:19 PM
one on one my money is on the bobcat. A few years back I dumped the JRT out on a tom that crosed the road, The Jack hit the trail and caught up to the cat, it didn't even run.
The jack squalled and then begain to bay. I had to help him out.
I don't think a big Tom is going to worry too much about A coyote.
My thoughts and worth what it cost ya.
Stay after them
Kelly
edit to say bluejays around here really tell of on a cat coming in also.
[ November 08, 2010, 07:20 PM: Message edited by: Kelly Jackson ]
Posts: 997 | From: Comanche OK | Registered: Oct 2006
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted November 08, 2010 07:32 PM
Yeah, I agree, Kelly. My previous comment was not a vote for the coyote, just an honest observation that it would be difficult to bet against the coyote, but forced into a corner, I think the cat would win without killing the coyote. They do a lot of defensive stuff, not necessarily grabbing a coyote by the throat, but slicing him up pretty thoroughly.
I'd pay to watch it, though.
Good hunting. LB
edit: fuck! I just found out that Apple has a spellchecker! This computer is awesome, but it still can't play some Windows media files.
[ November 08, 2010, 07:34 PM: Message edited by: Leonard ]
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
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R.Shaw
Peanut Butter Man, da da da da DAH!
Member # 73
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posted November 08, 2010 08:04 PM
Usually a coyote is through a squirrels area so quick, there is no need for barking. However,if the coyote holds up for a while..the squirrel will start barking.
Squirrels have enemies in the air as well. So one solitary bark from a squirrel indicates danger from the air such as a hawk. Constant barking means the danger is on the ground.
Just my observations.
Randy
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted November 08, 2010 08:43 PM
Yeah, that makes sense. The warning bark is as much "get the hell out of my area" as it is a warning; and if he is already passing through, like a fast coyote, why slow him down by mouthing off?
I have never felt that a bobcat has a tremendous fear of coyotes, not like a gray fox, of course. But, the cat will run, as first reaction. If he can't get to a tree, he is going into brush where a coyote would have a hard time "laying a glove" on him. But, once there, in a defensive position, that coyote is going to think he has cornered a 500 pounder.
Like Lance's example. However many coyotes stumbled on a trapped bobcat, they all decided they had something better to do than screw with a bobcat with an attitude. The cat is all defensive though. Even in the locked room, the outcome may boil down to opposite corners, hissing versus barking. After a few skermishes.
Good hunting. LB
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 31459 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
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Cdog911
"There are some ideas so absurd only an intellectual could believe them."--George Orwell.
Member # 7
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posted November 08, 2010 08:55 PM
The bestest way to see just how good a bobcat can be at putting up a good defense is to cuff one with a trap by the hindfoot. Talk about a whirling mess of pissed off. LOL
[ November 08, 2010, 08:56 PM: Message edited by: Cdog911 ]
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I am only one. But still, I am one. I cannot do everything, but still, I can do something; and, because I cannot do everything, I will not refuse to do something that I can do.
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R.Shaw
Peanut Butter Man, da da da da DAH!
Member # 73
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posted November 08, 2010 09:38 PM
LOL Lance. and they are the same way on the end of a choke pole for about 10 seconds.
Randy
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RagnCajn
ADDS ABSOLUTELY NOTHING
Member # 879
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posted November 08, 2010 10:12 PM
Here in good ol Lousiana, we can only shoot one bobcat, during deer season, with a deer license. No fox. coyotes are fair game year round. All that to say this. Several years ago, I had my one bobcat for the year, I was calling a cut corn field and a cat came out. He was literally about 5 feet from me and looking at the caller. Just for giggles I hit the preset for coyote threat bark. this bobcat was gone within seconds. I realize that is just one occassion but---
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Kokopelli
SENIOR DISCOUNT & Dispenser of Sage Advice
Member # 633
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posted November 09, 2010 12:58 AM
Good stuff to consider. Much thanx guys!!!
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And lo, the Light of the Trump shown upon the Darkness and the Darkness could not comprehend it.
Posts: 7579 | From: Under a wandering star | Registered: Apr 2005
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TOM64
Knows what it's all about
Member # 561
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posted November 09, 2010 06:12 AM
I've never done much howling until this year, let's back up. I've never been very succesful howling until this year, so this is good to hear. I'm trying to not use prey distress until Dec 1st (cat season) but glad to know I can still keep my same "set" routine ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
As for cat vs. coyote, cat all the way. I was bow hunting one morning in a tree stand and saw a cat walking down the trail. I decided to play with it a bit seeing how I was all camoed up and all. A couple of lip squeaks and the cat done saw through my camo and acted a little pissed. He stood there at the base of my tree for a good 5 minutes and I really thought he was coming up for a visit. No flight response in this one, he was all fight.
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skoal
Knows what it's all about
Member # 1492
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posted November 09, 2010 06:44 AM
Clint and I were in a deep wash calling up the wash sitting in differnt directions against the edge. I hear some leaves and sticks rustling behind me which was about 6 feet above me ,down jumps a bobcat about 4 or 5 feet from me its surveying the wash and I cant really move.so I Raise my rifle up just enough that I think its about on the cats ribcage ,pull the trigger and the round goes just under the cat. Then what happened was a real surprise the cat looks up and me and hisses with much disdain walks out into the wash about 10 feet and turns to me and growls and hisses again, then strolls out to a bout 25 feet and I shot him in the shoulder dropping him on the spot.I dont think they are afraid of much or they are quite possibly the dumbest animal walking. On the subject I have also had cats come into a stand where howling was used in conjunction with prey sounds. Cat vs coyote I think they aviod one another for good reason niether want the trouble it would require to vanquish the other.
Posts: 251 | From: desert s.w. | Registered: Jul 2007
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted November 09, 2010 10:24 AM
Interesting story, Paul...or who ever you are? I have done the "pointing" a rifle at a close in bobcat before, then missing, and he acted almost exactly as you describe.
I have also, on a set, had them be aware of my presence, and give me a fuk you attitude. A sore subject, as non residents cannot take bobcat any more, in NV.
Tom, see me in the backroom! ![[Smile]](smile.gif) Maybe I need to give you a job to keep you occupied? How about moderating the Okie Forum?
Good hunting. LB
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
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Cdog911
"There are some ideas so absurd only an intellectual could believe them."--George Orwell.
Member # 7
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posted November 09, 2010 10:27 AM
quote:
I dont think they are afraid of much or they are quite possibly the dumbest animal walking.
My vote goes for too stupid to know when to be afraid. I mean, how many times have you heard someone post about how they were frustrated at how all the bobcats where they call are educated and won't come in? LOL Or, how a bobcat they called went well out of its way to work a circle downwind and as soon as they got a snootful of man stink, were gone like a bullet. Hell, they hunt with their eyes, and once they're within line of sight, you can accomplish as much with a wiggling finger as you can with a call. Nine times out of, say, 9.1 times that you hear of some guy that shot a 'cat "this close" was because the guy 1), wanted to see how close the 'cat would get and 2) managed that because, prior to 1, he decided to see just how much he could screw with the poor bastard. Last week, one of the cats we called came loping in like a coyote. He went to the caller and made a tight circle around it at, oh, 3 feet. Bored, he turned toward me and started loping back to the trees. At about 20 feet, he made right and went to Kevin. At about 6 feet from him, Kevin pulled down his mask and said, "Boo!". The cat stopped for about a half second, turned to the right again and went toward the third guy with us, Brooks, who also, at about ten feet, pulled his mask down and said, "Boo, too!". The cat stopped for about a second, turned to the right again and sauntered off to the nearest grass about fifteen yards away, pausing very briefly at the edge to look back at us with "WTF?!?" all over his face. I'll bet a dollar to donuts that we could have gone back there an hour later and called that same cat back out like nothing had ever happened. The only reason cats survive the calling pressure they endure is 1) they sit still and most callers never know that they're there, and 2) most callers are unwilling to invest the time on stand to wait one out.
[ November 09, 2010, 10:34 AM: Message edited by: Cdog911 ]
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I am only one. But still, I am one. I cannot do everything, but still, I can do something; and, because I cannot do everything, I will not refuse to do something that I can do.
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