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Author
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Topic: killing predators ethical?
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2dogs
Knows what it's all about
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posted October 17, 2005 07:20 PM
Whats [your] opinion[s] on this matter & where do you draw the line?
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Coyotes;
I've killed them, left them lay.
I've shot & wounded many, to far away.
I won't shoot a pup.
One thing that strikes me as odd. Is when another killer, pass's their judgment upon another predator killer. For whatever reason, go figure ![[Confused]](confused.gif)
Posts: 1034 | From: central Iowa | Registered: Apr 2005
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Tim Behle
Administrator MacNeal Sector
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posted October 17, 2005 07:54 PM
I've killed a bunch and sold them for as little as $1.
I've killed them and left them lay.
I've killed them and then dug a hole and incinerated them ( Mange )
I've killed pups. I've killed wet bitches.
I've used gas and I've dug out dens. I've even used explosives.
But if I shoot a coyote, and have the slightest thought that I hit, I make every possible effort to make sure that coyote is dead. Even if it means I spend the rest of the day tracking him.
Everyone has to draw their own line for ethics. There are some ways that I will not participate in the taking of coyotes, some that I have done but will not discuss or teach.
It's hard not to get pissed off sometimes when folks start bragging about taking coyotes in ways that I don't agree with.
I think not passing judgment is just part of getting older. At least I'm trying to not pass judgment more and more as I age. I'm still not very good at it, but I'm trying.
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Personally, I carry a gun because I'm too young to die and too old to take
an ass kickin'.
Posts: 3160 | From: Five Miles East of Vic, AZ | Registered: Jun 2003
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2dogs
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posted October 17, 2005 08:13 PM
The ones I wounded. I'd spend an hour or so, either tracking or driving spotting. Looking for the recovery. Then move on, daylight burning.
Yup, hard to hold the tongue at times. But if I question why I shoot/kill them. It's a weak defense, for me. But I'm not quitting, regardless.
Posts: 1034 | From: central Iowa | Registered: Apr 2005
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Jrbhunter
PAYS ATTENsION TO deTAIL
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posted October 18, 2005 05:04 AM
I'm with Tim. Except, I'll take it one step further and refuse to sell a coyote for $1 and help saturate a soft market. Not being hip on going to jail for storing pelts (worthless pelts) beyond season I will destroy or donate anything that I do not feel are bringing fair money.
I've been there and done quite a bit of stuff... some of which made me cringe. Now I just smile and try to represent our sport as best "I" can. That's about all a guy has a right to do in my opinion... my hands are too bloody to point fingers.
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Andy L
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posted October 18, 2005 05:33 AM
I have shot coyotes and left them lay. I have shot coyotes and wounded them and let them go without looking too hard. I have never intentionally killed pups. Im sure I have though through ignorance when I was younger by killing a wet bitch. I have, like Tim, skinned coyotes knowing I may not get but a few dollars.
I guess I kinda evolved in a way. Most ranchers around here view the coyote as vermin. Kill on site. I was raised that way. Most of the time with deer rifles. But, unlike most, I was kinda torn. This was because of some of the guys that came to our place to call and hauled me along. I began to see the coyote as a great game animal as well.
Ive hunted them in ways Im not proud of. Ive rode around with the hound guys and shot out the window. I have just drove around and shot out the window. Not proud of either of those, but its true. Ive cut several in half during deer season just because.
Now, I put my own restraints on. We can kill them year round, except spring turkey season, basically. I hunt from about now til the end of Febuary. Unless I got one of the farmers I hunt on hollerin to kill a calf killer or something. I dont leave them lay unless they are absolutely ripped to shreds, which dont happen often with the little guns.
I guess I use some ethics.
Andy
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Andy
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2dogs
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posted October 18, 2005 06:12 AM
The only [justification] for me, killing them. Is the area farmers, don't want them. A few farmers have had sheep loss's. Some other farmer's have had their pet cats/dogs hammered by coyote. Up in their farm-yard.
Thats the only [real justice] I have. Kind of a [self-appointed farm pet sheriff] I'd say ![[Smile]](smile.gif) .
Posts: 1034 | From: central Iowa | Registered: Apr 2005
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Andy L
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posted October 18, 2005 06:36 AM
Yeah, 2dogs, I get some of that too. I know some areas of the country actually do have predation problems. Here, we dont. Very little anyway. Fifi may wonder off at the wrong time and become a meal. As for farm animals, ducks, chickens, pigs on ground, ect... sometimes get it. I talked with my dad and grandfather and several other life long ranchers around here, and none I talked to have ever lost calves to coyotes. Feral dogs yes, coyotes no.
I think alot of farmers panic at calving time as coyotes will come around and lick up the cholosterum (sp?) in the calf shit and pick up still borns, and assume they are there for the calves. One fella I hunt on in particular is coyote paranoid. The last two springs he has had a "calf killer". One, I believe, did kill some ducks on his pond. But the calves I saw had alot more signs of still born and eaten than killed by a coyote.
I dont know. This is a big can of worms and another hot topic discussion. But I dont really think we have any predation problems in this particular area. I havent hunted Iowa for coyotes, just phesant. But I have hunted deer on a lease we had for 10 yrs, less than ten miles from the Iowa line and they had about the same population and didnt appear to have a problem either, from the folks I talked to.
Yeah, some farmers are coyote paranoid. But I think its mostly in their head around here....
Andy
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Andy
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timbertoes
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posted October 18, 2005 07:47 AM
Other than disease.....are we not the Coyotes only natural predator ?
Posts: 20 | From: Van Alstyne, TX | Registered: Mar 2005
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Locohead
World Famous Smoke Dancer
Member # 15
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posted October 18, 2005 08:34 AM
Well, it probably doesn't happen much but I think a coyote taco will do a mountain lion just fine, coyote struddle could be a golden eagle delicasy, and wolf pizza might be an Alaskan favorite.
I can't proove any of this, but I figure it could happen!?!?
[ October 18, 2005, 08:36 AM: Message edited by: Locohead ]
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I love my critters and chick!!!! :)
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2dogs
Knows what it's all about
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posted October 18, 2005 10:39 AM
Andy,
Many moons ago, My Dad was a ranch-hand in South Cal. He said, during calving. The coyotes would sit on neighboring hills waitin, eye-balling the birthing. As soon as a calf was half-ways out.
The locals would swoop-in, yanking the calf out. Or ripping off a chunk. Some got tagged as my Dad was a crack shot.
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Timbertoes,
Good point, in Iowa anyways. We have a rare wolf or Mt.Lion pass through, now & then. But I think they have their own problems to deal with.
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NASA
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posted October 18, 2005 10:54 AM
Why are people (in general) so afraid to "pass judgement"? They cringe and say, "I don't want to judge".
What's so terribly wrong with that? A judgement is nothing more than an evaluation (opinion) based on your experience.
Now, if someone feels that their own opinion is inept or baseless, then it seems it would be prudent for them to keep that "judgement" to themselves. Or risk appearing stupid, as in "open mouth, insert foot!"
What's that old saying, "keep your mouth shut and let people assume you're dumb. Or, open it and erase all doubt."
The point here is, we all make "judgements" every day. They are called "decisions". From what to wear, what's for lunch, or fill up now or wait a few days and see if the price comes down any further. Being judgemental is not a bad thing. Being vocal with your bad judgement is.
(edit) What does this have to do with ethics? Ethics are simply the rules, standards, and principles that you use as your guideline for making decisions. A judgement or decision is an outward reflection of your personal ethics. Some people "talk" one set of ethics, but "practice" a completely different set. It makes me wonder if they abhor "judgement" because they risk exposure of their own double standards?
[ October 18, 2005, 01:27 PM: Message edited by: NASA ]
Posts: 1168 | From: Typical White Person | Registered: Apr 2003
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2dogs
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posted October 18, 2005 01:40 PM
NASA,
You've have mostly hit upon, of what I was getting at.
When I judge a person. I'm opening myself up to being judged myself. I'm quilty of plenty, probably more than most. It's more on how it's said/stated, than the judgment itself, IMO.
Occasionally I find myself in a weak double standard. Pathetic to say the least. Sometimes, when I have a coyote in my crosshairs. I think about why I want/need to kill this animal, anyway. [Perhaps, I'm just getting old ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif) ]
Mostly selfish & weak reasons, are my inward thoughts. Then I pull the trigger. I "justify" tagging one, in the thought of helping some farmer's [livestock] pets or some wild prey animal/fowl. But mostly it's because I enjoy the hunt.
I've read other predator hunters, putting the boot to another for wounding/maiming a predator. eg; Shot to far, wrong gun, not enough gun, ect, ect.
Predators are brutal on their prey, no mercy. So wounding a coyote, is not a problem to me.
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Andy L
HI, I'M THE NEW MODERATOR OF THE CENTRAL MISSOURI FORUM, PULL MY FINGER!
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posted October 18, 2005 02:26 PM
See, I dont agree with that. I dont see why folks need to "justify" killing a coyote. In the name of ADC seems to be most peoples thing to make them feel fuzzy inside.
How about, its fun and challenging to call a coyote or stalk a coyote and kill it. Isnt that justification enough? If not, why do you hunt anything? What would be the justification of killing a deer? You dont need the meat, more than likely. They have grocery stores around.
Make any sense?
Andy
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Andy
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Fehler
Knows what it's all about
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posted October 18, 2005 02:26 PM
I've got to weigh in on this after reading through the responses so far. Can't this question be asked of any game animal? Granted that most "game" such as deer, elk, dove, ducks, whatever are going to be consumed. The hunter is providing meat for the table. I've shot many a rabbit in my life, only attempted to eat one. But what about bear, lion, coons, various "African" species. I've seen guided hunts under game fence offer a longhorn. Although steak sounds tons better than coon stew, I'm not going to hunt longhorn steer. That is not a hunt.
However, you will get a definite respose from each hunter of a particular game that justifies why they do it.
I personally enjoy the challenge of hunting predators. Calling them in, paying attention to set up, wind & all other factors. I'd rather call something in than wait by a feeder, just my preferance for the challenge.
Coyote numbers, by most accounts I have seen, are on the rise. Some areas support more than others. Is there potental for predation, yes. Does it always occur when coyote are present, no. Are most ranchers I deal with ready to let me on to go predator hunting when I ask, yes they are.
I suppose I hang my hat on "predator control" for justifying it to others. I'm not out to eliminate the population. I do belive there is good in the control we (all of us) do through hunting.
Here in Texas we don't have a set season, it's open year round & you can hunt them at night too. But, I keep restraints on my self by not hunting through the summer, pretty much from early May to mid/late September. Get the pups raised & kick them out of the den. I'd rather have the predators to hunt than not.
So is killing predators ethical? IMO, it depends on how it is done. If done "right" I belive it is.
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Q-Wagoner
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posted October 18, 2005 02:41 PM
quote:
I talked with my dad and grandfather and several other life long ranchers around here, and none I talked to have ever lost calves to coyotes.
quote:
Yeah, some farmers are coyote paranoid. But I think its mostly in their head around here....
LOL how true it is. Last spring a rancher called me up and said he was over run with coyotes and they had just killed one of his calves. I went out to check it out and he showed me one dead calf that had a hindquarter mostly eaten “See” he said. “I told you they were getting my calves! That calf was alive and doing fine yesterday!! You do the math” Well there wasn’t one drop of blood to be found anywhere so I took the stinking thing home and peeled it out. Normally I wouldn’t have but over on “another board” a few weekend warriors were busy killing “STOCK KILLERS” and I was getting frustrated with all of the chest beating going on.
Anyway I skinned the calf and with out surprise I found nothing but pink flesh under the hide. No punctures, teeth marks or blood shot skin anywhere. Even the area where the coyote fed showed no sign of trauma. As far as I could see everything that happened to that calf was postmortem. I took pictures and planned on explaining what the difference between a coyote eaten calf looks like and what a kill would look like.
In the end I decided not to post. Some coyote hunters love to bask in there glory and shroud themselves in false mysticism. They come on line with there chests puffed out thinking they did something special by shooting “A” coyote that was undoubtedly a STOCK KILLER. LOL Although a feeble attempt at notoriety it does work in some circles. How does the saying go? “In the land of the blind a one eyed man is king?” LOL They can have it.
There will always be some jerkoff spouting off about some feat he just accomplished that screams BULL$HIT but there is nothing you can say that will change the facts as he sees them.
I think it was Randy W that once said. “Arguing on the Internet is like winning the gold medal at the Special Olympics. Sure you might win but you are still retarded.” LOL If I offended any one by this little analogy PLEASE get a life. LOL
There is a lot of coyote hunting practices that I think are unethical and in the past I have been pretty vocal about it but anymore unless it is too bad I just keep to my self. I figure that even the bottom feeders have to eat too and remind myself of the “retard” analogy. He he
Going back to the calf I skinned. I brought back the hide to show the rancher and told him he was drinking his bath water. There was nothing I could say that would convince him any different. A coyote killed that calf and that was just the way it was.
To make a long story short later that week I was down at the coffee shop when our local government guy comes rolling up in his brand new white Doge. I am always nosey when I bump in to him because I am protective of MY coyotes. LOL About 99% of the time he is out medicating prairie dogs but not today.
“Hello” I said. “What are you up to in these parts.” I ask. “Got a coyote call out south of town” he replies. “OH” I say. “Ya, old Wane has got a real problem, lost about 6 calves in the last week or so. “Get after them,” I say.
And so it goes. One sick or stillborn calf gets ate on and it snowballs from there every body in the coffee shop KNEW that Wane had indeed lost 6 calves to coyotes and that’s the way it was. After all if it wasn’t a REAL problum the government wouldn’t be called in to help. Right?
People are hungry for stuff like that. I guess they get tired of bitching about the weather. When I talk to ranchers about hunting some of them have been seeing this one coyote that hangs out in the north 40 that is no ordinary coyote! He is huge! Looks like it could be crossed with a Germen Shepard or something. That or a pure white one, or a pure black one, or some other distinguishing characteristic that I have never seen before. Some tell me to keep a look out for the mountain lion they have been seeing also. LOL
Some days I swear to God everyone on the net runs into these kind of ranchers and presumes that this is the way it is, you know “out in the country!” Maybe it is only on these ranchers’ places that the nimrods can get access to hunt? After all when out of towners start nosing around for a place to hunt they will be always be pointed strait to the ranchers who are squealing about coyotes?
If you are not familiar with government trappers you should know that there is a significant amount of paper work that is involved with there jobs. Part of the paperwork includes a damage assessment of some kind. I don’t know for sure but I would bet about a half a dozen calves got chalked up over that one incident. I know first hand that the whole thing was BULLSHITTTT but what I would really like to know is how much other damage is reported across Nebraska and the rest of the country that is a total fabrication from paranoid ranchers? When people get wound up about one thing or another it usually ends up as a fish story. Callers are the same way. The coyote that was shot at 150 on the trot ends up at 200 on the run a week later. A year later the 30 coyotes he shot last winter jumped to 40 by late spring and nearly 50 by fall. LOL you know how it goes.
The way I see it you need about as much justification to kill a coyote as you do to kill a pheasant or a deer. Why is it that every time someone kills a coyote it is “coyote control, damage control, ADC work or some other misleading title? Nearly every guy on the Internet kills all of the above for recreation first with food and furs a distant second or not at all. God and State gives me the privilege to hunt so I will and for my own reasons. My reasons will be different than yours but by giving a reason just sets us up for a fall. Reasons or justifications in my opinion are just “excuses.” When you voluntarily give excuses for what you are doing you are just playing into the antis hand. Many of the traditional excuses we like to give could easily be torn to shreds by anyone with an agenda.
During a blizzard in 1979 a cow got caught in a snow bank and was fed on by coyotes while it was still alive. I have seen the picture before but it was a long time ago so I don’t know what happened to it. My family on my fathers’ side has ranched for as long as ranching has existed I would guess and that is the one and only incident of it’s kind that any one can remember.
No offence 2dogs but I don’t buy into all the stories I hear about coyotes eating calves that are halfway out. A cow would be on its feet and on the fight in a second even WHILE giving birth if coyotes were attacking it. It would take a highly motivated pack of coyotes to get very far making there living that way. Cows are not that helpless. If or when something like that does happen the cow or heifer is having serious birthing problems to begin with. Sometimes they will get paralyzed during birth but that is very rare.
There is a big difference in what sometimes or could happen to calves than what usually happens. Normal hunting pressure keeps coyotes honest and in check around calving lots but even at that there is not a calving lot in the entire state of Nebraska that doesn’t have coyotes running through it nightly. Opportunity is there on a nightly bases for any coyote to attack calves. We have a hell of a lot of coyotes and a hell of a lot of calves here yet I have never in my life seen a coyote killed calf.
I am sure it happens, no doubt about it but not on the scale some would believe it does.
Ethics? The higher the standers the better we look as a sporting group but no one can set a standard of ethics with out enacting laws? No one seams to agree on the difference between right or wrong when it comes to killing coyotes and some people feel that any thing they do to coyotes is justified because they are predators. They act like they are “getting even” with a coyote because it has doubtlessly caused some kind of hardship for another animal. Coyotes do this or that, which is all the excuse I need to shoot puppies or wet bitches. I have heard it all before.
For now, we have the luxury to impose our own ethical guidelines. We should be thankful that the greenies have not concentrated there efforts on our sport because I think we would be an easy mark.
Good hunting.
Q,
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Andy L
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posted October 18, 2005 03:14 PM
Q, I couldnt agree more.
Andy
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Andy
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Rob
Knows what it's all about
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posted October 18, 2005 03:56 PM
![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
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"Where did all these #$%^&* Indians come from?" Gen. George Armstrong Custer
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Doggitter
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posted October 18, 2005 05:00 PM
Is it ethical? Judging by which special interest group? Everyone's in a special interest group to some degree or another. Killing Coyotes is and isn't ethical even within my own beliefs. I believe in not killing something that I can't benefit from using a MAJOR portion of said animal. I also believe man is a hunter on an instinctual level. The two thoughts collide also on an instictual level it seems possibly due to one predator(me) preffering to rid my hunting area of another predator. Kind of a self preservation thing maybe. I don't know. It's terribly confusing for me every time I consider the hunting/anti-hunting issue in any aspect. What settles the issue for me kinda all boils down to the fact that today's society agrees that it's leagl for me to hunt and I have a "need" to hunt, therefore it's ethical for me to hunt. Loren.
edited:; All this is of course taken into account that I LIKE to hunt Coyotes also.
[ October 18, 2005, 05:03 PM: Message edited by: Doggitter ]
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2dogs
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posted October 18, 2005 05:32 PM
Q-Wagoner,
No offense taken. Just relaying what my Dad, told me. Interesting opinions so far. Once thing you brought up, made me remember a point of [evolving stories].
I have told many stories of my hunting jaunts. The more I tell, they seem to change somewhat. Their all starting to mesh into themselves[cavitation].
On another sight [not PM], I was conversing with another coyote hunter. I told him of a particular coyote I shot last winter. Then I posted a pic...Hmmmm, he say's "Thats not him, is it?" I say, "Can't recall exactly now that you mention it!, I think it is".
Re-call is often the culprit of changing facts in a story. As time goes by, eh.
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Q-Wagoner
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posted October 18, 2005 05:44 PM
Yes, Re-call can get you in trouble. LOL I don’t keep the records I should and I know I have screwed up a story or two also. I am not even way old like you. LOL Most of my recent hunts of note I usually post a pic and a story about them somewhere on the net. If I get confused I can just run a search to make sure I get my story right.
As much as I have ran off at the mouth over the last few years it is especially important for me to keep my ducks in a row. LOL
Good hunting.
Q,
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Cdog911
"There are some ideas so absurd only an intellectual could believe them."--George Orwell.
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posted October 18, 2005 07:24 PM
If I had to rely only on those coyotes I killed fopr ADC reasons, I'd be done hunting in a hurry. In Kansas, 99.999% of all coyote problems are more the fault of the producer than the coyote. I can generally assess the situation surrounding the damage, be it coyotes, coons, whatever, nand then make recommendations toi the rancher or famer about what he can do to eliminate the opportunity. That's a much easier and generally successful approach in most cases. I've tried to counsel a few coyotes toward veganism, but thus far, no luck.
And Q, I resnt those remarks about imbellishments. Just last week, when I killed bugger brown, what I didn't tell about was his four packmates that lined up in single file and who all fell with just one shot at well over three hundred yards at a dead run. I was as surprised as they were. I'd have said all that before, but I didn't want to embarass the rest of you guys and your failure to match such a feat on your own. You know me... I don't like to brag. Oh, and BTW, good post. I agree.
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I am only one. But still, I am one. I cannot do everything, but still, I can do something; and, because I cannot do everything, I will not refuse to do something that I can do.
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Tim Behle
Administrator MacNeal Sector
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posted October 18, 2005 07:40 PM
NASA,
You're right. I admit it, I still pass judgment on nearly every post I read. I've just gotten to the point that I with hold expressing my opinion on a lot of things. It just isn't worth the fight that it will lead to.
Q,
I'm as guilty as any in years past, of to using the ADC excuse for killing coyotes.
But I've change my answer to the question of why I hunt. "I hunt because I'm a predator, it's in my blood and it's what I do"
The ADC thing always led to more questions and having to justify myself. I've yet to have anyone ask me to prove that I am a predator.
And most every coyote problem I've ever seen, could be controlled by shooting a few dogs, or feeding the cattle before they starve to death and coyotes fed on the corpse.
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Personally, I carry a gun because I'm too young to die and too old to take
an ass kickin'.
Posts: 3160 | From: Five Miles East of Vic, AZ | Registered: Jun 2003
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NASA
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posted October 18, 2005 08:25 PM
Tim, and so do I, and probably most of us here. But it's becoming more and more "expected" to embrace political correctness.
Quick story: Last week my Mgr. called me in his office. He asked me what I thought of a new hire engineer in our group. I said, "do you really want my opinion?" He said he's planning on making her a lead engineer, so let's hear it. So I laid it out for him. The "engineer" is a girl about 26 with no practical experience. She isn't a problem solver, doesn't pay attention to detail, couldn't draw a conclusion with with a template, and spends most of the day socializing up and down the halls. She has said that she would rather spend all day in meetings getting "face time", than sit at her desk doing Failure Analysis (her assigned task). I said, "she would be better suited at picking out window dressings for your office than being a Project Mgr."
Well, today he called me back in to his office. He said he had to "write me up" for my "derogatory and sexist" remarks about another employee." This coming at Review time. Neat, huh?
So where's the breach of ethics here? Was I wrong for giving an honest opinion (instead of a politically correct one) when asked? Or was it the Mgr. for setting me up for a sucker punch?
[ October 18, 2005, 08:31 PM: Message edited by: NASA ]
Posts: 1168 | From: Typical White Person | Registered: Apr 2003
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Q-Wagoner
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posted October 18, 2005 08:47 PM
Sounds like the manager is a wormy little prick to me. If he had a spine he would have shut you down right then and there and said “Ya know Tom, we can’t have you talking that way in the office.” End of story.
Are there more qualified people for that position or is it more of a statuesque issue? Gotta be politically correct ya know. Sounds like the latter to me if they are willing to make a project manager out of someone that incompetent. LOL
Good hunting.
Q,
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keekee
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posted October 18, 2005 09:09 PM
I hunt coyotes for one reason. I love to hunt coyotes! I respect them, I learn from them, and take in all the other things that go with the outdoor hunt. But I hunt them because I love to hunt coyotes! I enjoy calling them even if I dont fire a shot. Or I shoot them on film and never fire a shot.
To me, I dont haft to have a reason. They are a challenge. And I try to learn all I can about them. I still skin and put up my coyotes. And sell them at the end of every season. I have killed wet bitches and pups. And I have left them lay were they were shot. If I can get a few bucks from them then I will. But I dont hunt them for the money, or because they are killing deer or cattle. I hunt them because I love to hunt coyotes....lol
NASA...I understand! I deal with that crap every day! I feel for ya!
Brent
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Kee's Custom Calls
http://www.keescalls.com
Posts: 295 | From: Southern Ohio | Registered: Dec 2004
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