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Author
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Topic: Midwest Hunt
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JeremyKS
Knows what it's all about
Member # 736
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posted November 02, 2008 03:47 PM
I didn't know if anybody else seen this yet but Brent has thrown a new twist in the contest.
"Another new twist for 2009 is the 2 Pointer Coyote! It has been started in the coyote industry that coyotes that have a prodominatly white tipped tail are called 2 pointers. Why, not quite for sure, but they are out there and i have even harvested 2 this year in New Mexico.
I have been looking for a way to make our contest a little more interesting.
So for the 2009 Midwest Coyote Calling Event, both classes will be effected by 2 pointer coyotes. Any team that brings in a coyote that has a white tipped tail will count as 2 coyotes. The tail hair has to be 80% or more white colored. And not PAINTED!
That coyote will carry 2 times the credit. It will count as 2 coyotes and will double the weight count for that coyote. All coyotes that qualify will have to be inspected by me and i will have the final decision if in fact it is truely a 2 pointer.
I am sure that there will be plenty of questions about this new change, so bring your questions to the check-in meeting on Friday the 9th of January.
I look foreword to seeing you all in January! I hope your hunts are succesful during this fall season!"
Posts: 369 | From: Texas panhandle | Registered: Nov 2005
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Kokopelli
SENIOR DISCOUNT & Dispenser of Sage Advice
Member # 633
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posted November 02, 2008 03:58 PM
........and I thought that I didn't get out enough.
I can almost smell the Peroxide & Bleach from here.
Unless I'm missing something regarding skill levels required to harvest tail tipped white coyotes compared to normal tail tipped black coyotes, doesn't this change a contest into a novelity event??
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And lo, the Light of the Trump shown upon the Darkness and the Darkness could not comprehend it.
Posts: 7580 | From: Under a wandering star | Registered: Apr 2005
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Randy Roede
"It's Roede, like in Yotie
Member # 1273
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posted November 02, 2008 05:25 PM
Sounds like nothin but trouble!!!!
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The only person dumber than the village idiot is the person who argues with him!
Posts: 669 | From: Pierre SD | Registered: Mar 2007
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Cdog911
"There are some ideas so absurd only an intellectual could believe them."--George Orwell.
Member # 7
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posted November 02, 2008 06:34 PM
An interesting concept, but if there were any changes to be made in the contest hunting arena, I would like to see contests be standardized/accredited in some way and points given for placing, so that competitors could accumulate points as they hunt different hunts around the country. That way, whoever has amassed the greatest number of points at the end of the season can be truly recognized as the best at this game. Of course, there are many different variables to consider and problems to work out, but as it is in Nascar, if you wanna call yourself the best, I guess you need to get to the track and show up on race day. There has been some discussion about this concept of accreditation in the Midwest region of the country and I think it would be interesting to see what people think of developing such a system and holding sanctioned events.
[ November 02, 2008, 06:34 PM: Message edited by: Cdog911 ]
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I am only one. But still, I am one. I cannot do everything, but still, I can do something; and, because I cannot do everything, I will not refuse to do something that I can do.
Posts: 5438 | From: The gun-lovin', gun-friendly wild, wild west | Registered: Jan 2003
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J_hun
Knows what it's all about
Member # 872
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posted November 02, 2008 06:44 PM
In my book, a coyotes a coyote whether it be white , black, mangy, or whatever. I don't like that idea one bit. I won't be there anyway, but I think you should leave it just like the rest of the contests. I know I sure wouldn't be trying to see if the coyote had a white tip on its tail. Brent does a good job with the tournament and I say leave it the way it is.
Posts: 141 | From: Pierre,S.D. | Registered: Jun 2006
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CrossJ
SECOND PLACE: PAUL RYAN Look-a-like contest
Member # 884
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posted November 02, 2008 06:52 PM
Stupid idea!
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A friend will help you move. A good friend will help you move a body.
Posts: 1025 | From: on a water tower | Registered: Jul 2006
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted November 02, 2008 07:30 PM
Yeah, I'm afraid I don't like it, either. You already have a little dog and a big dog and that's enough.
There will be those that say, why stop there? Why not give two points for every coyote that weighs exactly 26.25 pounds?
Makes a skill event into a raffle.
Good hunting. LB
PS Brent. Hope it's not too late to change your mind? Maybe you could make it an option, somehow? For an extra $20, any white tail counts in a separate pool? Best forget it altogether, to be perfectly honest.
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 31462 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
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JeremyKS
Knows what it's all about
Member # 736
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posted November 02, 2008 07:57 PM
I agree Leonard, make it an option for people to enter for a side pot type bet. I guess I always assumed the purpose of the event was to see who the best was at hunting coyotes not to see who was lucky enough to shoot a coyote with a white tail. If I get beat by a dang white tipped coyote I know I won't be too happy.
Posts: 369 | From: Texas panhandle | Registered: Nov 2005
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Wiley E
Knows what it's all about
Member # 108
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posted November 03, 2008 06:36 AM
Wonder where the "2 pointer" phrase came from?
I doubt it would create any more potential for cheating than the "big dog / little dog" category.
My problem with it is that I don't believe a team should be given more credit for killing white tipped coyotes than those who don't. I think it would make for some pretty hard feelings for a team with 10 coyotes to get beat out by a team with 8 heavier coyotes with 2 being "white tipped". If you want to make it part of the contest, make a seperate prize for the largest and/or smallest white tipped coyote.
C-Dog,
Interesting concept on point accumulation to determine who the best is. I'm curious as to how you define "the best".
In my experience with competitive calling there is two categories to "the best". One for who is the best at finding and tying up a good area with lots of virgin eared coyotes and another for who is the best at killing the highest percentage of coyotes for the area they have.
I can remember a team in Rawlins, WY that saw 10 coyotes on public land and killed 8. Although they didn't win, they were "the best" to my way of thinking. Killing 80% of what you see is an incredible shooting percentage. Sure, I know luck is involved in shooting percentages but any team that can repeat a performance like that will end up in the top places every time.
I remember a team who won a major contest that saw over 52 coyotes but only killed 13. Are they truly "the best" under those circumstances?
If the points are racked up by the number of coyotes killed, we'll all have to pack our bags and head to SW Texas to accumulate points.
Having called in numerous contests in a number of states (ND, SD, WY, and KS), there is certainly a few names that always rise to the top but to truly find out who the best is at making the most of any situation, you'd have to draw for areas and make sure the areas are somewhat equal in coyote population to level the playing field. As it stands now, the teams who have the most coyotes will kill the most coyotes.
~SH~
[ November 03, 2008, 07:11 AM: Message edited by: Wiley E ]
Posts: 853 | From: Kadoka, S.D | Registered: Feb 2003
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Kokopelli
SENIOR DISCOUNT & Dispenser of Sage Advice
Member # 633
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posted November 03, 2008 07:08 AM
CDog; The problem that I see with the point system is that if three different hunters take first in several contests, another three different hunters take second, and the same guy takes third in all of them, the third place guy has the points to be 'best'?? We did this years ago in our archery club; it was called The Aggregate Trophy. It was basicly an attendence award.
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And lo, the Light of the Trump shown upon the Darkness and the Darkness could not comprehend it.
Posts: 7580 | From: Under a wandering star | Registered: Apr 2005
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onecoyote
Knows what it's all about
Member # 129
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posted November 03, 2008 09:15 AM
Calling contest....I think I've done a few of those against some pretty good competition.
Being true predator hunters we didn't limit ourselves to just coyotes, we also hunted bobcats, gray fox, badger and mt lions. Coyotes usually won the contest though.
Those who won came back with the most animals, it was that simple. No money involved, trophies or maybe a belt buckle and bragging rights.
I have yet to see any other hunts compare when it comes to numbers of animals, so does that mean the CSVCA hunters are the best ever? Yep lol.
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Great minds discuss ideas.....Average minds discuss events.....Small minds discuss people.....Eleanor Roosevelt.
Posts: 893 | From: Walker Lake Nevada. | Registered: Feb 2003
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Relentless
Knows what it's all about
Member # 2140
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posted November 03, 2008 11:20 AM
“2 pointer coyote.” Does anyone have a picture of a coyote that would qualify?
I’m a little sketchy on the “predominantly white tipped tail”. Is that, like more than 50% white?
Posts: 14 | From: Pend Oreille Co. Washington | Registered: Nov 2007
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted November 03, 2008 11:45 AM
Oh yeah, Danny; strolling down memory lane again, ain't 'cha?
The only sad part, these guys would never believe it. Twelve coyotes might place tenth, you know? Did we imagine all that? There were a few times, I did halucinate, from lack of sleep.
Definitely, the good old days, though.
Good hunting. LB
edit: just a couple days ago, I saw an old blue Toyota with a black camper shell. Had to look twice but it didn't say "Coyote Coffin" on the back.
edit: you may not remember it, but we did have cash prizes, back in the early days. Decided it corrupted, nothing's changed.
[ November 03, 2008, 11:50 AM: Message edited by: Leonard ]
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 31462 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
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Jrbhunter
PAYS ATTENsION TO deTAIL
Member # 459
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posted November 03, 2008 11:49 AM
Relentless, see the "Light Colored Coyote" thread here in the Predator Calling forum for pictures of a few coyotes that would qualify.
Even the Okie got this one right: stupid idea. If you want to make a coyote worth 200% of another... let Roede, Huber & Cal buzz his ass with a trifecta of choppers and biplanes blaring Foxpro, Minaska and WT distress sounds on loudspeakers. Paintball him purple 12 hours before the hunt opens up- that's a 2 point coyote!
Posts: 615 | From: Indiana | Registered: Dec 2004
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Patterson
19.6 miles down the Yellow Brick Road from THE EMERALD CITY
Member # 3304
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posted November 03, 2008 02:37 PM
New member here. I have been lurking for a long time now. This thread struck a cord so I figured I would chime in.
I agree with you guys that it is not a good idea for this to be added to the contest. This takes some element of skill away from the hunt and replaces it with a element of luck. We are not in the contests for the element of luck. We are in the little dog and big dog for the element of luck. Adding this to the main format of the hunt is not good. If a team with 8 coyotes ends up beating a team with 10 coyotes because of weight then I am sure there will be a uproar. Not to mention it puts teams that are in areas that have the "white tipped" coyotes in a advantage as I am not sure but only guessing that it is genetic. So other coyotes in that teams area will have the same traights.
If the argument for adding this "twist" is to even out the playing field and maybe give some other teams that might not place a chance to place then its definately not cool with me. My partner and I are new to the contest scene. Have only been in 6 contests in two years. We are beginners at the sport for the most part. I have been shooting coyotes for 7 years and calling hard for them for 4. We are by no means pros or even good enough to be in the predator class for this hunt. What we do have how ever is the love to call coyotes and have fun at contests. We dont live close to St. Francis and we still enter and try our hardest. Last year I lived in Colorado(Ft. Collins) and this year I live in Kansas(Ogden). We dont even know anybody or have any land out there to hunt. At least didnt until we got off our asses and started scouting and doing homework for the contests we enter.
To me this just makes the lazy guys that road hunts have that much more of a chance to edge out a team that actually tries. My partner just drove by himself from Colorado out there this last weekend scouting and locking up some land for that contest. I hate to think that two guys in a pickup can get lucky and find two dogs with white tips in a pasture together and mow them down and be placing in the sportsmans class. Just does not seem right.
I only said all this stuff because we love going to the contests and this bothers me. If you feel the same please email brent and let him know how you feel. Especially if your in the contest, plan to be, or ever have been in the contest. Thanks. Brent@predatorsniperstyx.com
Dustin
Posts: 236 | From: Kansas | Registered: Nov 2008
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Patterson
19.6 miles down the Yellow Brick Road from THE EMERALD CITY
Member # 3304
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posted November 03, 2008 02:43 PM
Jeremy,
Are you going to be entering the contest this year??
Did you not enter last year because you won it the year before??
Dustin
Posts: 236 | From: Kansas | Registered: Nov 2008
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Relentless
Knows what it's all about
Member # 2140
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posted November 03, 2008 03:20 PM
Sorry to keep being a pest but I checked out the light colored coyote thread and I’m still not real clear. Is this one coyote or two?
Before today I knew what it was.Sorry to keep being a pest but I checked out the light colored coyote thread and I’m still not real clear. Is this one coyote or two?
Before today I knew what it was.
Posts: 14 | From: Pend Oreille Co. Washington | Registered: Nov 2007
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Relentless
Knows what it's all about
Member # 2140
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posted November 03, 2008 03:22 PM
That was suposed to have a picture attached to it. Guess I don't quite have that part down yet.
Posts: 14 | From: Pend Oreille Co. Washington | Registered: Nov 2007
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted November 03, 2008 03:27 PM
I don't quite understand your confusion? The proposed rule; a coyote with a white tipped tail is worth TWO POINTS. Meaning, it is equal to two black tipped coyotes.
Good hunting. LB
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 31462 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
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Bryan J
Cap and Trade Weenie
Member # 106
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posted November 03, 2008 03:35 PM
I don’t know. I guess to a certain degree it makes it a bit of a lottery. I kind of feel the same way about ties being broken by the weight of the coyotes taken over the guy who brings in the same number of coyotes in less time. When I enter to play with the big boys it is kind of a lottery anyway. I don’t have the time, resources, or self control to find a good population of coyotes and put them in the bank and hope they will still be there for contest day.
Numbers can be deceiving. To see 52 coyotes and kill 13 might not be so bad if the guys were hunting open country and could see for miles but only 13 were willing to come within killing range. What about the guy getting in the thick stuff with a shotgun. He might have had 52 coyotes running around him all day long but could only see 8? Too many variables.
If a team were to take third in Rawlings, St. Francis and the World is not that team better over all (at finding and killing coyotes) than the team that won the hunt in their back yard and placed around the middle of the pack at the other two events? IF there were a higher number of teams that hunted all three events a points system would recognize the most CONSISTANT hunters. Anyone can luck out and do really well in A contest or do well on their home turf. It takes something to be competitive nearly every time you compete no matter where it is held.
Posts: 599 | From: Utah | Registered: Feb 2003
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Patterson
19.6 miles down the Yellow Brick Road from THE EMERALD CITY
Member # 3304
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posted November 03, 2008 07:55 PM
Just got a email back from Brent. He took my objection to that twist VERY constructively. He was very proffesional. He values the input and actually said thanks. He would like to hear more input good or bad about the subject. Even more reason to send him a email.
Dustin
Posts: 236 | From: Kansas | Registered: Nov 2008
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Wiley E
Knows what it's all about
Member # 108
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posted November 04, 2008 06:48 AM
Bryan J: "I kind of feel the same way about ties being broken by the weight of the coyotes taken over the guy who brings in the same number of coyotes in less time."
Ties being broken by total weight of coyote as opposed to check in times stopped the road races. Teams that drove the speed limit were beat by teams that broke the speed limit. Breaking ties by weight generally gives the advantage to a team who kills more adult coyotes. I like that concept. Having seen both systems in place, I much prefer breaking ties by weight. Had some good friends of mine beat by a team that blew past them on the highway 1 mile from town. The team that broke the law won.
Byran J.: "To see 52 coyotes and kill 13 might not be so bad if the guys were hunting open country and could see for miles but only 13 were willing to come within killing range."
Most of the sage country in every direction from Rawlins is similar habitat. The variable that would bias a comparison of numbers seen vs. numbers killed was whether or not the team had access to those coyotes. If you saw them in land that you couldn't hunt, there's not much you can do about that. I understand the variables that could affect using the numbers as comparisons but 52 coyotes is a lot when most teams are seeing less than half that.
Byran J.: "What about the guy getting in the thick stuff with a shotgun. He might have had 52 coyotes running around him all day long but could only see 8?"
If he didn't see them, they would or should not have been counted as "seen".
Byran J.: "If a team were to take third in Rawlings, St. Francis and the World is not that team better over all (at finding and killing coyotes) than the team that won the hunt in their back yard and placed around the middle of the pack at the other two events?"
All other things being equal, yes. I'm glad to see you mention "finding" because that is a big part of the equation but has nothing to do with calling and shooting abilities. I just draw a distinction between the two because I like to recognize each as a seperate area of expertise.
Byran J.: "IF there were a higher number of teams that hunted all three events a points system would recognize the most CONSISTANT hunters. Anyone can luck out and do really well in A contest or do well on their home turf. It takes something to be competitive nearly every time you compete no matter where it is held."
I agree but that still doesn't level the playing field for equal opportunity. The teams with the most virgin eared coyotes will consistantly win over those who are calling in areas of less coyotes and more hunting pressure. I just like to see credit given to those who call and shoot a high percentage of what they see.
If you want to level the playing field, you would have to draw for areas of equal opportunity. Some teams are much better at finding and doing whatever it takes to tie up large tracts of private land with virgin eared coyotes. Now I'm not saying there is anything wrong with that or that it should be different, my point is that it has nothing to do with their calling and/or shooting ability.
For example, Les and Jeff Johnson would compete under an equal opportunity situation but I can't say that about other consistant winning teams. Some teams are really good callers and shooters but they never reach the top because they simply dont have the coyotes to compete. Right or wrong, good or bad that's just how it is.
It goes back to who is the best at finding good places and who is the best at making the most of what they have.
~SH~
[ November 04, 2008, 06:55 AM: Message edited by: Wiley E ]
Posts: 853 | From: Kadoka, S.D | Registered: Feb 2003
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Wiley E
Knows what it's all about
Member # 108
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posted November 04, 2008 06:57 AM
jrb: "If you want to make a coyote worth 200% of another... let Roede, Huber & Cal buzz his ass with a trifecta of choppers and biplanes blaring Foxpro, Minaska and WT distress sounds on loudspeakers. Paintball him purple 12 hours before the hunt opens up- that's a 2 point coyote!"
LOL!
Touche!
I can remember a few 3 point coyotes that had to be sniped at long ranges. You didn't call them, you just exposed them.
~SH~
Posts: 853 | From: Kadoka, S.D | Registered: Feb 2003
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JeremyKS
Knows what it's all about
Member # 736
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posted November 04, 2008 07:11 AM
I think I will forward a link to this thread to Brent.
The reason we did not enter last year is due to the rule that Brent has stating if a team wins 2 years in a row they must sit out or split up for 1 year. So yes we are going to enter it this year.
Jeremy Gugelmeyer
Posts: 369 | From: Texas panhandle | Registered: Nov 2005
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Cdog911
"There are some ideas so absurd only an intellectual could believe them."--George Orwell.
Member # 7
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posted November 04, 2008 08:01 AM
Better yet, go out and trap five coyotes in different areas and put a cattle tag in their ear. Anyone that brings back a tagged coyote gets a buttload of extra points. LOL
Scott, thanks for offering your insight on the sanctioning idea. I was just throwing it out there, perfectly aware that the idea may have been considered previously but dismissed for whatever the reasons were at the time. I'm sure that the current system is a result of years of tweaks here and there and what we have now is the sum total of what works, minus what doesn't. I would bet that Brent is just trying to liven things up a bit with some new ideas to keep the contest fresh.
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I am only one. But still, I am one. I cannot do everything, but still, I can do something; and, because I cannot do everything, I will not refuse to do something that I can do.
Posts: 5438 | From: The gun-lovin', gun-friendly wild, wild west | Registered: Jan 2003
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